fuel tank anti-freeze

Thread view:

Enable EMail Alerts

Start New Thread

Thread rating:

eastwardbound2003@yahoo.com - 05 Nov 2006 05:16 GMT

In a nutshell, is fuel tank anti-freeze a waste of money now a days
with modern cars that have sealed gas tanks with the Evaporative
Emissions Recovery controls?

East-

Reply to this Message

MLOM - 05 Nov 2006 05:18 GMT

> In a nutshell, is fuel tank anti-freeze a waste of money now a days
> with modern cars that have sealed gas tanks with the Evaporative
> Emissions Recovery controls?
>
> East-

Not sure of that, but I'd think it would be a waste in places that use
ethanol blends. It would have to get quite cold for the ethanol to
freeze.

Reply to this Message

Billzz - 05 Nov 2006 05:48 GMT

> In a nutshell, is fuel tank anti-freeze a waste of money now a days
> with modern cars that have sealed gas tanks with the Evaporative
> Emissions Recovery controls?
>
> East-

Well, we live in the Sierra Nevada, about 4000 ft. altitude, and I've never
heard of fuel-tank anti-freeeze. In fact I've been in the army in Germany,
and in Korea, at minus twenty degrees, and never heard of fuel tank anti
freeze.

Reply to this Message

Daniel W. Rouse Jr. - 05 Nov 2006 07:02 GMT

> > In a nutshell, is fuel tank anti-freeze a waste of money now a days
> > with modern cars that have sealed gas tanks with the Evaporative
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and in Korea, at minus twenty degrees, and never heard of fuel tank anti
> freeze.

"HEET" is one such brand of gas line/fuel system antifreeze
(<http://www.goldeagle.com/heet/>) and it's often found in auto parts stores
such as Kragen or Pep Boys.

Reply to this Message

Matthew Russotto - 05 Nov 2006 20:07 GMT

>Well, we live in the Sierra Nevada, about 4000 ft. altitude, and I've never
>heard of fuel-tank anti-freeeze. In fact I've been in the army in Germany,
>and in Korea, at minus twenty degrees, and never heard of fuel tank anti
>freeze.

You wouldn't need it when it's that cold. It's mainly a problem when
condensation of water can get into the gasoline. When it's that cold
there isn't much moisture in the air anyway. Snowy weather just below
freezing is probably the worst.

Signature

There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Reply to this Message

gpsman - 05 Nov 2006 14:40 GMT

> In a nutshell, is fuel tank anti-freeze a waste of money now a days
> with modern cars that have sealed gas tanks with the Evaporative
> Emissions Recovery controls?

I think it's more a matter of less water in today's fuels. Even at
-35F in Montana my vehicles start and run just fine.

Maybe paying a little more for fuel at a major distributor is worth it.
I know for sure there are plenty of little truck stops who seem to
have no qualms selling tainted fuel.
-----

- gpsman

Reply to this Message

Harry K - 05 Nov 2006 15:20 GMT

> In a nutshell, is fuel tank anti-freeze a waste of money now a days
> with modern cars that have sealed gas tanks with the Evaporative
> Emissions Recovery controls?
>
> East-

Fuel line antifreeze is a misnomer although it is imbedded in the
vernacular now. Once applied it does not act as an antifreeze, it just
sucks up the water and allows it to be burned expelled through the
engine - 'burned' if you will. Fine point it is true but... Water in
the gas will separate out and settle to the lowest point, accumulate
there and freeze at anything below about 30 deg F. There are other ways
for water to get into your tank than jusst being sucked in through air
leaks.

I use a can occasionally just to keep any water accumulation eliminated
as a general practice as water in the fuel line can cause more problems
than just freezing.

Harry K

Reply to this Message

Matthew Russotto - 05 Nov 2006 20:19 GMT

>Fuel line antifreeze is a misnomer although it is imbedded in the
>vernacular now. Once applied it does not act as an antifreeze, it just
>sucks up the water and allows it to be burned expelled through the
>engine - 'burned' if you will.

It is an antifreeze as well; the ethanol, water, and gasoline form a
solution which has a (much) lower freezing point than water alone.

Signature

There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Reply to this Message

Harry K - 05 Nov 2006 22:59 GMT

> >Fuel line antifreeze is a misnomer although it is imbedded in the
> >vernacular now. Once applied it does not act as an antifreeze, it just
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
> result in a fully-depreciated one.

Well...sorta. Gas and water don't mix so it is the water freezing and
causing problems.

While you can argue that it is acting as an antifreeze, if you could
get just the gas/water to mix (emulsify maybe) you would find the
freezing point well below any reasonable operating conditions.
Hmmm...would an emulsion (gas/water) separate then the water freeze?

Yes, it is an antifreeze of sorts but that is not its purpose. Its
purpose is to make an alcohol/water solution that will pass through the
engine burning the alcholol and expelling the water.

Of course it is nit picking on both sides.

Harry K

Reply to this Message

Matthew Russotto - 06 Nov 2006 21:59 GMT

>> >Fuel line antifreeze is a misnomer although it is imbedded in the
>> >vernacular now. Once applied it does not act as an antifreeze, it just
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>get just the gas/water to mix (emulsify maybe) you would find the
>freezing point well below any reasonable operating conditions.

That's what ethanol does, though it's not an emulsion;
ethanol, water, and gasoline form a solution, whereas water and
gasoline do not.

>Hmmm...would an emulsion (gas/water) separate then the water freeze?

Yes, that's what happens (assuming an emulsion forms at all; in a
fuel-injected car the mixing from the return line probably means it
does)

Signature

There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Reply to this Message

Motorhead Lawyer - 08 Nov 2006 20:53 GMT

> >While you can argue that it is acting as an antifreeze, if you could
> >get just the gas/water to mix (emulsify maybe) you would find the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> fuel-injected car the mixing from the return line probably means it
> does)

Man, when you guys need someone with a chemistry backround, why don't
you just ask?

Water and ethanol and gasoline do not exactly form a mixture. Water
dissolves in ethanol. The ethanol (with dissolved water) mixes with
gasoline. There is no emulsion. There is probably no appreciable
freezing point depression. It's more like sugar, which is a solid.
When a small amount is dissolved in water, sugar's freezing point
doesn't change; it's just dissolved. When a similarly small amount of
solid water is dissolved in alcohol, it's not frozen; it's dissolved.
Does that help?
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; done that)

Reply to this Message

Scott en Aztlán - 09 Nov 2006 02:28 GMT

"Motorhead Lawyer" <88.535is@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving:

>Man, when you guys need someone with a chemistry backround, why don't
>you just ask?

Because the expertise you get on USENET is generally worth no more
than the amount you pay for it? :)

Signature

I'm a wreckless driver and damn proud of it!

Reply to this Message

Harry K - 09 Nov 2006 03:05 GMT

> > >While you can argue that it is acting as an antifreeze, if you could
> > >get just the gas/water to mix (emulsify maybe) you would find the
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Does that help?
> --

> C.R. Krieger
> (Been there; done that)

So you missed what I said "_if_ you could just get the gas/water to
mix..." I know that you can't do it, I also know that
alcohol/water/gas is a solution, not an emulsion.

To be more pedantic, I also know that 'gas' is really gasoline not a
'gas'

I am curious tho. You say that the water/gas/achohol solution would
have no appreciable freezing point depression. I suspect that there
would be a considerable one unless (and that is what I am unsure about)
the water came back out of solution at the freezing point.

Hmmm....kitchen experiment. Think I will do one, a bit of Heet and
water and stick in freezer....Hmm further. Having frozen beer before
it turns to a slush so It looks like water does separate out but I
wonder at what temperature. My frozen beer was in Alaska way below
frigid.

Harry K

Reply to this Message

Matthew Russotto - 09 Nov 2006 05:00 GMT

>So you missed what I said "_if_ you could just get the gas/water to
>mix..." I know that you can't do it, I also know that
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>would be a considerable one unless (and that is what I am unsure about)
>the water came back out of solution at the freezing point.

There's certainly appreciable freezing point depression caused by
adding alcohol to water.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethanol-water-d_989.html

Apparently cooling a saturated mixture of oxygenated gasoline and
water results in a layer of ethanol+water mix and layer of the rest of
the gasoline. Neither will likely freeze, but it won't run well.

See
<http://www.chevron.com/products/PRODSERV/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/4_oxygenated-ga
soline/pg2.asp>
under "water tolerance".

Signature

There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Reply to this Message

Harry K - 09 Nov 2006 15:14 GMT

> >So you missed what I said "_if_ you could just get the gas/water to
> >mix..." I know that you can't do it, I also know that
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
> result in a fully-depreciated one.

Thanks, that is just what I expected.

Harry K

Reply to this Message

Motorhead Lawyer - 09 Nov 2006 19:42 GMT

> >So you missed what I said "_if_ you could just get the gas/water to
> >mix..." I know that you can't do it, I also know that
> >alcohol/water/gas is a solution, not an emulsion.

Apologies; I missed your qualifier.

> >To be more pedantic, I also know that 'gas' is really gasoline not a
> >'gas'

I know you're not stupid. I avoided that.

> >I am curious tho. You say that the water/gas/achohol solution would
> >have no appreciable freezing point depression. I suspect that there
> >would be a considerable one unless (and that is what I am unsure about)
> >the water came back out of solution at the freezing point.

I guess definitions don't exactly cover this point. What happens is
not that water's freezing point is lowered so the water becomes liquid,
but that the solid water dissolves directly into the ethanol. In doing
so, as Matthew's cite shows, it *raises* the freezing point of the
solution by quite a lot.

> There's certainly appreciable freezing point depression caused by
> adding alcohol to water.
>
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethanol-water-d_989.html

That partly depends on how you look at it. The addition of 10% water
to ethanol *elevates* the freezing point of the original solution by
*65 degrees* while the addition of 10% ethanol to water depresses it
only 7. The former (what you'd see in a gasoline additive) is quite
significant while the latter is nearly insignificant. That's why I
wrote what I did.
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; done that)

Reply to this Message

Harry K - 10 Nov 2006 03:27 GMT

> > >So you missed what I said "_if_ you could just get the gas/water to
> > >mix..." I know that you can't do it, I also know that
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> C.R. Krieger
> (Been there; done that)

So now you shot a hole in another of my beliefs. I was sure that a 10%
add would have lowered the freeze point a lot more than that. I hate
learning new things ;)

Harry K

Reply to this Message