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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / November 2006

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European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs

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Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 20 Nov 2006 02:16 GMT
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html

European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs

By Matthias Schulz

Are streets without traffic signs conceivable? Seven cities and
regions in Europe are giving it a try -- with good results.

Drachten in the Netherlands has gotten rid of 16 of its traffic light
crossings and converted the other two to roundabouts.
Zoom
Ben Behnke

Drachten in the Netherlands has gotten rid of 16 of its traffic light
crossings and converted the other two to roundabouts.
"We reject every form of legislation," the Russian aristocrat and
"father of anarchism" Mikhail Bakunin once thundered. The czar
banished him to Siberia. But now it seems his ideas are being
rediscovered.

European traffic planners are dreaming of streets free of rules and
directives. They want drivers and pedestrians to interact in a free
and humane way, as brethren -- by means of friendly gestures, nods of
the head and eye contact, without the harassment of prohibitions,
restrictions and warning signs.

A project implemented by the European Union is currently seeing seven
cities and regions clear-cutting their forest of traffic signs. Ejby,
in Denmark, is participating in the experiment, as are Ipswich in
England and the Belgian town of Ostende.

The utopia has already become a reality in Makkinga, in the Dutch
province of Western Frisia. A sign by the entrance to the small town
(population 1,000) reads "Verkeersbordvrij" -- "free of traffic
signs." Cars bumble unhurriedly over precision-trimmed granite
cobblestones. Stop signs and direction signs are nowhere to be seen.
There are neither parking meters nor stopping restrictions. There
aren't even any lines painted on the streets.

"The many rules strip us of the most important thing: the ability to
be considerate. We're losing our capacity for socially responsible
behavior," says Dutch traffic guru Hans Monderman, one of the
project's co-founders. "The greater the number of prescriptions, the
more people's sense of personal responsibility dwindles."

Monderman could be on to something. Germany has 648 valid traffic
symbols. The inner cities are crowded with a colorful thicket of metal
signs. Don't park over here, watch out for passing deer over there,
make sure you don't skid. The forest of signs is growing ever denser.
Some 20 million traffic signs have already been set up all over the
country.

Psychologists have long revealed the senselessness of such exaggerated
regulation. About 70 percent of traffic signs are ignored by drivers.
What's more, the glut of prohibitions is tantamount to treating the
driver like a child and it also foments resentment. He may stop in
front of the crosswalk, but that only makes him feel justified in
preventing pedestrians from crossing the street on every other
occasion. Every traffic light baits him with the promise of making it
over the crossing while the light is still yellow.

"Unsafe is safe"

The result is that drivers find themselves enclosed by a corset of
prescriptions, so that they develop a kind of tunnel vision: They're
constantly in search of their own advantage, and their good manners go
out the window.

The new traffic model's advocates believe the only way out of this
vicious circle is to give drivers more liberty and encourage them to
take responsibility for themselves. They demand streets like those
during the Middle Ages, when horse-drawn chariots, handcarts and
people scurried about in a completely unregulated fashion. The new
model's proponents envision today's drivers and pedestrians blending
into a colorful and peaceful traffic stream.

It may sound like chaos, but it's only the lesson drawn from one of
the insights of traffic psychology: Drivers will force the accelerator
down ruthlessly only in situations where everything has been fully
regulated. Where the situation is unclear, they're forced to drive
more carefully and cautiously.

Indeed, "Unsafe is safe" was the motto of a conference where
proponents of the new roadside philosophy met in Frankfurt in
mid-October.

True, many of them aren't convinced of the new approach. "German
drivers are used to rules," says Michael Schreckenberg of Duisburg
University. If clear directives are abandoned, domestic rush-hour
traffic will turn into an Oriental-style bazaar, he warns. He believes
the new vision of drivers and pedestrians interacting in a cozy,
relaxed way will work, at best, only for small towns.

But one German borough is already daring to take the step into
lawlessness. The town of Bohmte in Lower Saxony has 13,500
inhabitants. It's traversed by a country road and a main road. Cars
approach speedily, delivery trucks stop to unload their cargo and
pedestrians scurry by on elevated sidewalks.

The road will be re-furbished in early 2007, using EU funds. "The
sidewalks are going to go, and the asphalt too. Everything will be
covered in cobblestones," Klaus Goedejohann, the mayor, explains.
"We're getting rid of the division between cars and pedestrians."

The plans derive inspiration and motivation from a large-scale
experiment in the town of Drachten in the Netherlands, which has
45,000 inhabitants. There, cars have already been driving over red
natural stone for years. Cyclists dutifully raise their arm when they
want to make a turn, and drivers communicate by hand signs, nods and
waving.

"More than half of our signs have already been scrapped," says traffic
planner Koop Kerkstra. "Only two out of our original 18 traffic light
crossings are left, and we've converted them to roundabouts." Now
traffic is regulated by only two rules in Drachten: "Yield to the
right" and "Get in someone's way and you'll be towed."

Strange as it may seem, the number of accidents has declined
dramatically. Experts from Argentina and the United States have
visited Drachten. Even London has expressed an interest in this new
example of automobile anarchy. And the model is being tested in the
British capital's Kensington neighborhood.

-----------------------

This is insane.  Imagine 18 wheelers doing 80 mph in cities and
running red lights every time.  It would be "The bigger vehicle has
the right of way."
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 20 Nov 2006 02:22 GMT
>This is insane.  Imagine 18 wheelers doing 80 mph in cities and
>running red lights every time.  It would be "The bigger vehicle has
>the right of way."

Meant to say running intersections. I guess they don't have red
lights.
necromancer - 20 Nov 2006 03:12 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Speeders & Drunk
Drivers are MURDERERS after viewing gay kid porn spewed this in
rec.autos.driving:

> Meant to say running intersections. I guess I don't have any brains
> what so ever.

Still waiting for my $3.00 gas that you promised, sh.t for brains.

Signature

Loco Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend foams like a Bartlo
(and spelling or gramatical errors are left as is):

"Hey - necromancer is a criminal coddler. BTW the article
says 4X and then it says the BAC was .187 which doesn't
make much sense.  Not that it matters.  Drunk drivers who
kill should get life wo parole."

Ref: http://tinyurl.com/rqvtg
Message ID:i2k082lf3gv2p6h1sosge2bqma6uvce2ft@4ax.com

TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65@spamgourmet.com - 20 Nov 2006 18:16 GMT
> Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Speeders & Drunk
> Drivers are MURDERERS after viewing gay kid porn spewed this in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Still waiting for my $3.00 gas that you promised, sh.t for brains.

One of Aunt Judy's predicitions didn't come true? Hard to imagine. =))

Are you also waiting on Bushie to serve a third term as predicted by
SADDAM?
necromancer - 21 Nov 2006 13:04 GMT
Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely),  said in
rec.autos.driving:

> > Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Speeders & Drunk
> > Drivers are MURDERERS after viewing gay kid porn spewed this in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> One of Aunt Judy's predicitions didn't come true? Hard to imagine. =))

So far, so good, T-minus 40 hours and counting untill SADDAM's
prediction flies in its face.

> Are you also waiting on Bushie to serve a third term as predicted by
> SADDAM?

Not too concerned about SFB missing that one. Ain't the Constitution a
wonderful thing? ;)

Signature

--
"I'm all for making the SUV owners park in the rear of the lot.   It
should be handled like handicapped parking.  A special sticker on the
plate designating this vehicle as a highway tank that must be parked in
the tank area."

--Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend, 10/23/05
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/dnox5  http://tinyurl.com/c92qg
Message ID:1130115926.511881.4700@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Bill Bonde ('Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?') - 20 Nov 2006 04:00 GMT
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
>
> European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs

> "More than half of our signs have already been scrapped," says traffic
> planner Koop Kerkstra. "Only two out of our original 18 traffic light
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> running red lights every time.  It would be "The bigger vehicle has
> the right of way."

There are still rules, there are just fewer rules. Simpler rules mean
less problems. Roundabouts don't use stop signs or stop lights, you
know, you goof.

Signature

He and Evie soon fell into a conversation of the "No, I didn't; yes, you
did" type--conversation which, though fascinating to those who are
engaged in it, neither desires nor deserves the attention of others.
-+E.M. Forster, "Howards End"

Studeman - 22 Nov 2006 21:05 GMT
> > http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
> >
> There are still rules, there are just fewer rules. Simpler rules mean
> less problems. Roundabouts don't use stop signs or stop lights, you
> know, you goof.

Some large roundabouts in GB use traffic control lights during some
periods of the day.
They seem to do the job quite well.
Bill Bonde ('Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?') - 23 Nov 2006 20:19 GMT
> > > http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> periods of the day.
> They seem to do the job quite well.

Some entrances to freeways in the US have traffic signals to meter on
the flow of traffic to what the road can take at that time.

Signature

He and Evie soon fell into a conversation of the "No, I didn't; yes, you
did" type--conversation which, though fascinating to those who are
engaged in it, neither desires nor deserves the attention of others.
-+E.M. Forster, "Howards End"

Eeyore - 23 Nov 2006 20:41 GMT
> > > > http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Some entrances to freeways in the US have traffic signals to meter on
> the flow of traffic to what the road can take at that time.

That method is very occasionally used here too although I can't recall coming
across one myself.

Graham
Bert Hyman - 22 Nov 2006 21:09 GMT
tributyltinpaint@yahoo.co.uk (Bill Bonde ('Anyone for tennis,
wouldn't that be nice?')) wrote in
news:45612851.E180FDF2@yahoo.co.uk:

> Roundabouts don't use stop signs or stop lights, you
> know, you goof.

I take it that you've never driven in Washington DC.

Signature

Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

Bill Bonde ('Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?') - 24 Nov 2006 04:19 GMT
> tributyltinpaint@yahoo.co.uk (Bill Bonde ('Anyone for tennis,
> wouldn't that be nice?')) wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I take it that you've never driven in Washington DC.

Of course not, why would I want to drive there? The point of a
roundabout is to allow traffic to flow without interruption and to slow
it down so any cross traffic doesn't cause accidents that kill people.

Signature

He and Evie soon fell into a conversation of the "No, I didn't; yes, you
did" type--conversation which, though fascinating to those who are
engaged in it, neither desires nor deserves the attention of others.
-+E.M. Forster, "Howards End"

Eeyore - 24 Nov 2006 04:43 GMT
> > tributyltinpaint@yahoo.co.uk (Bill Bonde ('Anyone for tennis,
> > wouldn't that be nice?')) wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> roundabout is to allow traffic to flow without interruption and to slow
> it down so any cross traffic doesn't cause accidents that kill people.

I gather he may be talking about Washinton's traffic circles which are most
certainly not roundabouts.

Graham
Bert Hyman - 25 Nov 2006 03:30 GMT
In news:45667887.EC81780@hotmail.com Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I gather he may be talking about Washinton's traffic circles which are
> most certainly not roundabouts.

They are over here; or at least they were until some traffic engineer
thought it would be just precious to adopt Brit-speak.

Signature

Bert Hyman    St. Paul, MN    bert@iphouse.com

Arif Khokar - 25 Nov 2006 03:49 GMT
[leaving group distribution alone since I don't know what group you're
reading this from]

> In news:45667887.EC81780@hotmail.com Eeyore
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> I gather he may be talking about Washinton's traffic circles which are
>> most certainly not roundabouts.

> They are over here; or at least they were until some traffic engineer
> thought it would be just precious to adopt Brit-speak.

No, they're not roundabouts.  A modern roundabout gives traffic in the
circle the right of way over traffic entering the circle.  There are
also deflection entries to force traffic to go to the right (in right
hand drive countries) when entering one.

Unless the traffic circles in Washington meet those criteria, they're
not roundabouts.
Eeyore - 25 Nov 2006 09:09 GMT
> [leaving group distribution alone since I don't know what group you're
> reading this from]
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Unless the traffic circles in Washington meet those criteria, they're
> not roundabouts.

100% correct.

Graham
Nate Nagel - 25 Nov 2006 13:33 GMT
> [leaving group distribution alone since I don't know what group you're
> reading this from]
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Unless the traffic circles in Washington meet those criteria, they're
> not roundabouts.

Some of them are signalized, but I believe the rest do fit those
criteria.  There's at least one in Annapolis that fits perfectly.

nate

Signature

replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Eeyore - 25 Nov 2006 09:08 GMT
> > I gather he may be talking about Washinton's traffic circles which are
> > most certainly not roundabouts.
>
> They are over here; or at least they were until some traffic engineer
> thought it would be just precious to adopt Brit-speak.

There's a world of difference between a traffic circle and a roundabout.
Changing the name doesn't change the fact.

Graham
khjc@jersey.net - 20 Nov 2006 17:39 GMT
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
> running red lights every time.  It would be "The bigger vehicle has
> the right of way."

But at least the driver of the bigger vehicle will give a friendly wave
as he has the right of way.
Bob uecker - 20 Nov 2006 19:38 GMT
>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
>>
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
> But at least the driver of the bigger vehicle will give a friendly wave
> as he has the right of way.

AS people in America know nothing of Europe its pretty ludicrous to comment
on anything outside of your puppets in England. They are just more Americans
and it wont ever work with that trash. In civilized areas it may just work.
Bert Hyman - 20 Nov 2006 19:43 GMT
> AS people in America know nothing of Europe ...

Hey! That's funny.

Stupid, but still funny.

Signature

Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | bert@iphouse.com

Studeman - 22 Nov 2006 20:58 GMT
> AS people in America know nothing of Europe its pretty ludicrous to comment
> on anything outside of your puppets in England. They are just more Americans
> and it wont ever work with that trash. In civilized areas it may just work.

Too braod a statement;

I lived in Europe (UK) for eight years and think that this might work
in Nederlands and Germany, but not in Belgium and France.

The Brits seem to have a bit of common sense and trust in their rules
and interpertations, so it might well work there.

If the EU (or individual nations) followed the example of the Sweeds
(regarding speed) during the left to right conversion of the 1960s,
this might very well work.

Regarding Americans, Califonians might do OK, but watch out for
visitors from Boston and New York!
GK - 29 Nov 2006 05:42 GMT
>>AS people in America know nothing of Europe its pretty ludicrous to comment
>>on anything outside of your puppets in England. They are just more Americans
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Regarding Americans, Califonians might do OK, but watch out for
> visitors from Boston and New York!

What it comes down to is what drivers are normally conditioned to
according to their expectations and previous experiences. I think if
everyone knew ahead of time that the intersections are uncontrolled and
they have to "feel" there way through, it would work except for the MFFY
types that would have to be dealt with somehow.

I've seen uncontrolled intersections in some large US cities and several
decades ago got t-boned by a cab since each one of us was expecting the
other direction to have a stop sign.

GK
Studeman - 25 Nov 2006 06:24 GMT
> >> http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 132 lines]
> on anything outside of your puppets in England. They are just more Americans
> and it wont ever work with that trash. In civilized areas it may just work.

When I grew up i Boston they were known as rotaries.
While attending college. I worked HVAC and drove a truck with
pooralignment.
Coming into one particular rotary, the scream from the tires always
gave me the right of way!
As I lived in England and loved the roundabouts there much better, I
will call them whatever I want. Right now, I'm thinking "Marilyn!"
beachshark@gmail.com - 20 Nov 2006 19:03 GMT
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>
> -----------------------

A city that I used to live in has replaced many traffic lights with
roundabouts, and roundabouts are the first choice in new planning too.
It's worked out well.  Several areas of congestion are improved.
Old Wolf - 21 Nov 2006 02:09 GMT
> A city that I used to live in has replaced many traffic lights with
> roundabouts, and roundabouts are the first choice in new planning too.
> It's worked out well.  Several areas of congestion are improved.

Can you elaborate. One town I know of, has all roundabouts
and no traffic lights. During rush hour the whole thing turns
into a traffic jam. It does have fairly small blocks though -- only
about enough room for 15 cars between one roundabout and
the next.

I was under the impression that roundabouts are only good up
until a certain (high) volume of traffic, at which point a well-timed
light will provide better flow.
Eeyore - 21 Nov 2006 03:31 GMT
> > A city that I used to live in has replaced many traffic lights with
> > roundabouts, and roundabouts are the first choice in new planning too.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> until a certain (high) volume of traffic, at which point a well-timed
> light will provide better flow.

Very busy roundabouts here combine both ideas. In the simplest instance entry to
the roundabout is light-controlled.

Graham
Billzz - 21 Nov 2006 07:28 GMT
>> A city that I used to live in has replaced many traffic lights with
>> roundabouts, and roundabouts are the first choice in new planning too.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> until a certain (high) volume of traffic, at which point a well-timed
> light will provide better flow.

Yes, that's true.  And I have a master's degree which includes urban and
city planning.  I mention it only because I lived in suburban Virginia where
they decided to replace stop signs with roundabouts, in a housing area which
was used by commuters from Virginia to D.C.  I thought of the forum in Rome,
and the emperor shouting, "Let the games begin!"  And sure enough the game
of challenging who goes first, the person in the roundabouit, or the person
entering the roundabout began.  Of course there are rules, but everyone, in
a roundabout (and I've also been in them in London and Paris - amongst
others) in the US, makes up their own rules.  The evidence is in the
increasing amount of skid marks, and the increasing fender-benders, which
(and the only good thing here - because it's really hard to speed through a
roundabout) are all low-speed crashes.  Another US attraction is the
four-wheel drive vehicles which simply go over the roundabout, until the
civil authorities are forced to place cement blocks in it (making a real
eye-attracting neighborhood attraction.)  In short, many of the formerly
civilized intersections became knock-down drag-out brawling places, where no
parent could walk a baby-carriage across the intersection.  I don't have an
ending to this story as we decided to leave Virginia for Texas.  I've never
seen a roundabout in Texas.  But then they all had guns, so that would
explain that.
Eeyore - 21 Nov 2006 08:03 GMT
> Of course there are rules, but everyone, in
> a roundabout (and I've also been in them in London and Paris - amongst
> others) in the US, makes up their own rules.

Not in the UK they don't.

The rules are simple and ppl obey them.

Graham
Arif Khokar - 22 Nov 2006 06:26 GMT
>> Of course there are rules, but everyone, in a roundabout (and I've
>> also been in them in London and Paris - amongst others) in the US,
>> makes up their own rules.

> Not in the UK they don't.
>
> The rules are simple and ppl obey them.

As usual, the Bill is making stuff up.  There's a roundabout not too far
from here in the same state (Virginia) and there have been no problems.
 In fact, it's on a college campus, and I have not heard anything about
crashes or fender benders at that particular roundabout.  There aren't
any skid marks either.  In fact, I ride my bike and drive through it on
most days.
Eeyore - 22 Nov 2006 06:44 GMT
> >> Of course there are rules, but everyone, in a roundabout (and I've
> >> also been in them in London and Paris - amongst others) in the US,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> any skid marks either.  In fact, I ride my bike and drive through it on
> most days.

I get the impression that Americans feel duty bound to try and dismiss any  idea
that wasn't invented in the USA out of sheer ignorant xenophobia.

Graham
Furious George - 22 Nov 2006 09:16 GMT
> > >> Of course there are rules, but everyone, in a roundabout (and I've
> > >> also been in them in London and Paris - amongst others) in the US,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I get the impression that Americans feel duty bound to try and dismiss any  idea
> that wasn't invented in the USA out of sheer ignorant xenophobia.

Maybe if you dumbass Brits had any good ideas things would be
different.  I hate how you British people come to America and don't
bother learning the f*cking language.  If you can't speak English, get
the f*ck out of America.  America for Americans.  British f*ckers go
home.

> Graham
beachshark1@yahoo.com - 22 Nov 2006 18:00 GMT
> > > >> Of course there are rules, but everyone, in a roundabout (and I've
> > > >> also been in them in London and Paris - amongst others) in the US,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> the f*ck out of America.  America for Americans.  British f*ckers go
> home.

Bet you always say freedom muffins rather than english muffins, don't
you?
beachshark1@yahoo.com - 22 Nov 2006 18:05 GMT
> > >> Of course there are rules, but everyone, in a roundabout (and I've
> > >> also been in them in London and Paris - amongst others) in the US,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Graham

Unfortunately, this is somewhat true.  I remember extreme nationalism
began spreading... it was when the Republican Reagan was in office, and
cockily triumphant faux-conservatives began chanting "USA...USA...USA"
at the olympics and at other functions involving other countries.
Prior to this, Americans mostly tried to be inclusive, respectful a bit
quietly proud and dignified in such affairs.  You've seen this same
arrogance by the same class of people raise it's ugly head again with
the Bush election.

Talk about "ugly Americans".
Matthew Russotto - 22 Nov 2006 18:51 GMT
>Unfortunately, this is somewhat true.  I remember extreme nationalism
>began spreading... it was when the Republican Reagan was in office, and
>cockily triumphant faux-conservatives began chanting "USA...USA...USA"
>at the olympics and at other functions involving other countries.

ROTFL.  Some people will do anything to blame Reagan.  Cheering for
one's national team at the Olympics is now some sort of transgression?

>Talk about "ugly Americans".

Lederer and Burdick already did, in _1958_.  So much for Reagan bashing...

Signature

 There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
 result in a fully-depreciated one.

Billzz - 22 Nov 2006 19:28 GMT
>> > >> Of course there are rules, but everyone, in a roundabout (and I've
>> > >> also been in them in London and Paris - amongst others) in the US,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> > any skid marks either.  In fact, I ride my bike and drive through it on
>> > most days.

I missed this comment, probably because I have you plonked, probably because
I think you made things up.  The place is King's Park in Burke, Virginia,
about the 1980s, when they tried to slow commuters by changing intersections
into roundabouts.  It was in the newspapers at the time.  I drove it daily
and saw the progression from intersection to roundabout, to roundabout with
concrete blocks to prevent 4-wheelers from running over them.  By then the
whole intersectioon looked like a war zone.  Now you will probably want
pics.

And of course there are rules in London and Paris, and they tried in Burke,
Virginia, but they were not obeyed.  Now I am sorry I said anything.  Go
believe what you want, I won't be reading any more.

>> I get the impression that Americans feel duty bound to try and dismiss
>> any  idea
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Talk about "ugly Americans".
Arif Khokar - 22 Nov 2006 20:05 GMT
> The place is King's Park in Burke, Virginia, about the 1980s, when they
> tried to slow commuters by changing intersections into roundabouts.  It
> was in the newspapers at the time.  I drove it daily and saw the
> progression from intersection to roundabout, to roundabout with concrete
> blocks to prevent 4-wheelers from running over them.

Given your comments, it's apparent you have no idea what a roundabout
really is.  Look here:  http://roundabout.kittelson.com/ and here:
http://www.livingstonroads.org/Roundabout%20Guide.htm
Old Wolf - 22 Nov 2006 01:31 GMT
> Yes, that's true.  And I have a master's degree which includes urban and
> city planning.  I mention it only because I lived in suburban Virginia where
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> (and the only good thing here - because it's really hard to speed through a
> roundabout) are all low-speed crashes.

Do you have weird rules there or are Americans just stupid? The
only roundabout crashes I've ever heard about in my country
are when people are doing a 270 degree turn but illegally don't
indicate, so other traffic assumes they are going straight through
and enters the roundabout. Also there are a few nose to tails
when some knob charges up to the roundabout and then slams
on the brakes.

You mention SUVs driving over the roundabout; there are some
here which are actually designed to be driven over, and it works
very well (flow is increased because you don't have to bother
doing such a big turn).
Billzz - 22 Nov 2006 01:53 GMT
>> Yes, that's true.  And I have a master's degree which includes urban and
>> city planning.  I mention it only because I lived in suburban Virginia
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> very well (flow is increased because you don't have to bother
> doing such a big turn).

You wrote, "Do you have weird rules there or are Americans just stupid?"

Do you have a Dale Carnegie course in "How to Win Friends or Influence
People" in NZ?

Or are you just stupid?

And to think I was once the US rep. to the ABCA (Australia, Britain, Canada,
America) working group on combat developments, which also included a NZ rep.
and we were also the NATO panel, and we had a wonderful time in each other's
capitols,  and hardly ever insulted each other without a humorous turn on
each others foibles.  And we ate mussels in Brussels, and met Rod Stewart,
but I digress.

The point was that Americans are not used to roundabouts, make up their own
rules (which is not unlike other American activities) and roundabouts were
dysfunctional, meaning that they not only did not work, they worked against
their intended purpose.

But maybe I'm just stupid.
Old Wolf - 22 Nov 2006 02:49 GMT
> The point was that Americans are not used to roundabouts, make up their own
> rules (which is not unlike other American activities) and roundabouts were
> dysfunctional, meaning that they not only did not work, they worked against
> their intended purpose.
>
> But maybe I'm just stupid.

Well, whose fault is that? If you install a new civic engineering
feature that isn't obvious, you will need to educate the people
how to use it. For example you could put up a sign saying
"Yield to your left".
Eeyore - 22 Nov 2006 03:56 GMT
> > The point was that Americans are not used to roundabouts, make up their own
> > rules (which is not unlike other American activities) and roundabouts were
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> how to use it. For example you could put up a sign saying
> "Yield to your left".

I can see the response now.

" Americans ignore yield signs ".

Graham
Billzz - 22 Nov 2006 05:26 GMT
>> The point was that Americans are not used to roundabouts, make up their
>> own
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> how to use it. For example you could put up a sign saying
> "Yield to your left".

I'm sure that works in Nuevo Zeeland, but signs, in Los Estados de Norte
America, do not a change in attitude make.

It's just different.

Maybe you have not been here.  We also lived for ten years in Texas.  Now
that's another difference.  A person was sued for selling a pick-up truck
with a gun in the glove compartment, which was used in a crime.  The radio
report said, " Since this was Texas, there was, of course, a gun in the
glove compartment."  Of course.  Didn't surprise me.

Post a sign saying, "Yield to your left?"

Maybe somewhere, over the rainbow.
Eeyore - 22 Nov 2006 05:44 GMT
> Post a sign saying, "Yield to your left?"
>
> Maybe somewhere, over the rainbow.

As I suspected.

Until Americans grow up you'll continue massacring yourselves on the road in the
pursuit of MFFYness.

Graham
Eeyore - 22 Nov 2006 03:55 GMT
> "Old Wolf" <oldwolf@inspire.net.nz> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> But maybe I'm just stupid.

Where roundabouts have been propery trialled in the USA with good layouts and
sensible prior publicity they have worked brilliantly.

Indeed they are on the increase now in the USA.

It's suggested that they contribute greatly to the UK's low accident rate ( we
were the first to use them extensively - from the early 60s onwards ).

Graham
Harry K - 22 Nov 2006 15:29 GMT
> > "Old Wolf" <oldwolf@inspire.net.nz> wrote in message
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Graham

Errm...I drove in Europe from 62 on.  Many, many roundabouts on roads
that were obviously very old.  Early 60s is not even close to the
beginnings of round-abouts.

Harry K
Eeyore - 23 Nov 2006 00:27 GMT
> > > "Old Wolf" <oldwolf@inspire.net.nz> wrote in message
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> that were obviously very old.  Early 60s is not even close to the
> beginnings of round-abouts.

Not the beginning but it was that period that saw the number increase hugely.

Graham
Bill Bonde ('Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?') - 21 Nov 2006 04:36 GMT
> A city that I used to live in has replaced many traffic lights with
> roundabouts, and roundabouts are the first choice in new planning too.
> It's worked out well.  Several areas of congestion are improved.

Roundabouts work if there is little to no cross traffic. Of course stop
signs work in those circumstances too.

Signature

He and Evie soon fell into a conversation of the "No, I didn't; yes, you
did" type--conversation which, though fascinating to those who are
engaged in it, neither desires nor deserves the attention of others.
-+E.M. Forster, "Howards End"

Eeyore - 23 Nov 2006 00:28 GMT
> > A city that I used to live in has replaced many traffic lights with
> > roundabouts, and roundabouts are the first choice in new planning too.
> > It's worked out well.  Several areas of congestion are improved.
> >
> Roundabouts work if there is little to no cross traffic. Of course stop
> signs work in those circumstances too.

You don't have to stop for a roundabout.

Graham
Jeffrey Turner - 23 Nov 2006 13:43 GMT
>>>A city that I used to live in has replaced many traffic lights with
>>>roundabouts, and roundabouts are the first choice in new planning too.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You don't have to stop for a roundabout.

Maybe, maybe not.

--Jeff

Signature

Whenever morality is based on theology,
whenever right is made dependent on
divine authority, the most immoral,
unjust, infamous things can be
justified and established. --Ludwig Feuerbach

Bill Bonde ('Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?') - 23 Nov 2006 20:17 GMT
> > > A city that I used to live in has replaced many traffic lights with
> > > roundabouts, and roundabouts are the first choice in new planning too.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You don't have to stop for a roundabout.

You do if there's a lot of cross traffic. That's the key. You don't want
a roundabout, at least the kind retrofitted in place of a four way
traffic light, in an intersection with a lot of cars coming at right
angles to each other, traffic should be mostly from one line either
direction. Roads that cross and don't have heavy traffic obviously also
work well with roundabouts since no one has to stop.

The main advantage of a roundabout to a stop sign when the stop sign is
on the lightly travelled road and nothing is on the heavily travelled
one is that the main flow of traffic is slowed down and the threat of a
death in any accident thus reduced.

Signature

He and Evie soon fell into a conversation of the "No, I didn't; yes, you
did" type--conversation which, though fascinating to those who are
engaged in it, neither desires nor deserves the attention of others.
-+E.M. Forster, "Howards End"

Eeyore - 21 Nov 2006 03:29 GMT
> http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the head and eye contact, without the harassment of prohibitions,
> restrictions and warning signs.

Right. Let's see the accident figures in a year's time.

It might work after a fashion in quiet villages but cities ? Hmmm @ 'friendly
gestures' !

Graham
Studeman - 23 Nov 2006 06:46 GMT
OK!
>From 1991 through 1999, I drove 18 miles to work from Coventry to just
on the other side of Birmingham Center (just off five-ways roundabout)
gojng arund ten roundabouts.

Three roundabouts have "fly-overs" for the main road to make it the
best of all worlds.

I also got caught, usually, at for five regular stoplight
intersections. Only on rare occasions did the total wait at the
roundabouts exceed that at the lights.

It took me a hell of a lot less time than if I had to go through the
typical US intersections.

Try it there - you'll like it!

> > http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Graham
 
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