Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / December 2006
Business Week magazine calls for coddling of drunk drivers
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Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 05 Dec 2006 03:39 GMT Screw this BS. If we can imprison harmless pot smokers, we can imprison deadly drunk drivers.
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/04122006/244/technology-alone-won-t-tackle-drunk-driving.html
Monday December 4, 08:12 PM Technology Alone Won't Tackle Drunk Driving
By Lawrence Taylor
Government statistics show that alcohol-related fatality figures have been essentially unchanged for the past decade -- despite lowered blood-alcohol standards, Draconian penalties, roadblocks, legal presumptions of guilt, and other assaults on the Constitution.
Recognizing a failed effort, Mothers Against Drunk Driving has unveiled with considerable fanfare its latest weapon in the "War on Drunk Driving:" the ignition interlock device [IID]. The device is not new, of course. It has been in use in many states for several years [with notably little success] and versions are being developed by Saab (Stockholm: SAABB.ST - news) , Toyota (TM), and Nissan (NSANY) for possible installation in future car models as standard equipment. There are, however, two basic reasons this newest "answer" to the drunk driving problem will fail as well.
First, IIDs are inaccurate, easily circumvented, dangerous -- and ineffective. Unlike the infrared spectroscopic breath instruments used by law enforcement, or even the less sophisticated handheld field units used by officers [deemed too inaccurate to be used in evidence], IIDs are primitive devices that are mounted along with the ashtray in the car's dashboard -- and thus subject to contaminants, cigarette smoke, vibrations from the road, etc. In any event, an intoxicated person could easily have someone else breathe into the device, or simply borrow or rent another car. And because IIDs generally require periodic retesting of the driver while the car is underway, the risk from driver distraction alone poses a very real danger.
But how effective are IIDs in achieving MADD's goal of lowering fatalities? In a study of the devices' effectiveness in California, the state's Motor Vehicles Dept. came to the following conclusions:
--"The expected effect, that an IID order/restriction issued by the court would result in a lower rate of subsequent [driving under the influence] convictions, was not observed.
--"The risk of a subsequent crash was higher for drivers installing an IID, compared with drivers [who did not install] a device."
The study went on to say, "The results of this outcome study clearly show that IIDs are not effective in reducing DUI [driving under the influence of alcohol] convictions or incidents for first DUI offenders." It added, "Because there is no evidence that interlocks are an effective traffic safety measure for first DUI offenders, the use of the devices should not be emphasized."
Complicated Problem
The second reason the IID will fail is that, as with other attempts to bring down the alcohol-related fatality figures, the IID does not address the underlying problem. The risk of DUI-caused fatalities lies not with the social drinkers who represent the vast majority of drivers whose blood alcohol content is higher than .08%, most of whom are in the .08% to .15% range.
My own experience from prosecuting and defending thousands of people accused of DUI is that those who cause injury and death on our highways are usually fairly identifiable: the problem alcoholic. This client can usually be identified by two factors. First, the blood-alcohol level is very high, commonly over .20%. Second, the client is a recidivist -- that is, a repeat offender.
Thus, the first step is to identify the danger -- the relatively small number of "problem drinkers" -- and to stop filling our jails with social drinkers.
A Rehabilitative Approach
The second step is to decide what to do with this problem drinker/driver. Our present approach is purely punitive. But if we simply throw the alcoholic in jail for six months, what is accomplished? We've made the streets safe from him for six months -- and on the day he gets out, he drives to the nearest bar and resumes his drinking. We have made no real progress: Our jails continue to burst at the seams, and the fatalities continue at their predictable levels.
I would suggest a rehabilitative approach rather than a punitive one, an approach that would actually take a step toward solving the problem rather than waiting for the vicious cycle to begin again. By now, most experts recognize that alcoholism is a disease, not a choice [the "choice" to drive, of course, is made by an inebriated person, and thus is a Catch-22]. And you don't treat a disease with incarceration.
Need For Treatment
We recognize legal incapacity due to mental disease. The plea or verdict is "not guilty by reason of insanity." The defendant is not simply set free, but is hospitalized for treatment of the disease until he is well. Why not treatment for problem drunk drivers who suffer from the [largely genetic] disease of alcoholism? In other words, why not recognize a plea of "not guilty by reason of alcoholism?" Again, this does not mean he "gets off." He will be ordered to undergo rehabilitative therapy. In serious cases, mandatory commitment to a rehabilitative facility may be appropriate.
The choice is fairly simple: Do you want vengeance, or safety? Would you prefer to have a chronic drunk driver off the road for a few months -- or in control of his disease?
Dave Head - 05 Dec 2006 08:22 GMT Besides all that:
1) People sharing the driving on a long trip would be placing their mouths on the same piece of hose, and thereby transferring whatever germs 1 has to all. Didn't use to have herpes? You do now...
2) It'd be too easy to carry a can of compressed air to defeat the device by blowing absolute zero any time you want to.
3) The thing is likely going to take 20 seconds or so to analyze the air sample. Who wants to wait 20 seconds every time they start their car?
4) The temperature extremes in a car are likely not going to help such a device have a long life. The record low temperature in Indiana was set about 15 miles from my house in 1995, I think it was - minus 38 degrees. Think this thing is going to work every time like that? Breath would freeze on any surface.
5) Its just something else to go wrong. Car repairs of any sort seem to cost $600 as soon as you roll into the service bay.
6) Its going to add to the cost of a car. I don't drink except for maybe 1 or 2 beers per year. I don't need it, and resent paying for it.
Dave Head
>Screw this BS. If we can imprison harmless pot smokers, we can >imprison deadly drunk drivers. [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] >you prefer to have a chronic drunk driver off the road for a few >months -- or in control of his disease? Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 05 Dec 2006 16:46 GMT >6) Its going to add to the cost of a car. I don't drink except for maybe 1 or >2 beers per year. I don't need it, and resent paying for it. That's how i feel too. This is just a scam to let the car makers and the IID makers fleece the public. I'd rather the DUIs be thrown in prison and yes, that would cost money too, but at least it would sove the drunk driver problem.
necromancer - 05 Dec 2006 09:56 GMT Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS said in rec.autos.driving:
<<snip off topic newsgroups>>
> Screw this BS. If we can imprison harmless pot smokers, we can > imprison deadly drunk drivers. I am a pedalphile! <<snip article>>
Lets see, if the IID's work as intended, there would be no dui's to imprison. What's the matter, loser, afraid you wouldn't have any more boyfriends in the joint (except for the potheads) if this happened??
 Signature Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS demonstrates its Bartlo quality forecasting abilities:
"At least they did where i live. It'll be $3 by turkey day and $4 by Xmas as exxon tries to make up for the money they lost lowering prices to help their bud Bush."
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/y35dzw Msg ID:g1b6m2toqvke4g7jampip7d32kalsvvn74@4ax.com
Chuck Whealton - 13 Dec 2006 23:18 GMT > Screw this BS. If we can imprison harmless pot smokers, we can > imprison deadly drunk drivers. [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > you prefer to have a chronic drunk driver off the road for a few > months -- or in control of his disease? Laura, I wouldn't say that pot smokers are "harmless". They're breaking a law. It's that simple. Smoking pot is AGAINST THE LAW. You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to obey - that's why they (pot smokers) get locked up.
As for the interlock devices, it disappointing that they don't work as we'de like them to. Hopefully, they'll come up with more concrete devices and methodologies in the future, but if there's a way to keep alcoholics OFF the road WHILE INTOXICATED without putting them in prison, I'm all for it.
Charles R. Whealton Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 14 Dec 2006 02:12 GMT > Laura, I wouldn't say that pot smokers are "harmless". They're > breaking a law. It's that simple. Smoking pot is AGAINST THE LAW. > You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to obey - that's why > they (pot smokers) get locked up. Speeders pick and choose what laws to obey and their crime is definitely harmful.
> As for the interlock devices, it disappointing that they don't work as > we'de like them to. Hopefully, they'll come up with more concrete > devices and methodologies in the future, but if there's a way to keep > alcoholics OFF the road WHILE INTOXICATED without putting them in > prison, I'm all for it. That's criminal coddling. DUIs are killers and maimers and if we're not gonna lock them up, then mt the prisons right now.
necromancer - 14 Dec 2006 05:45 GMT Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS said in rec.autos.driving:
> > Laura, I wouldn't say that pot smokers are "harmless". They're > > breaking a law. It's that simple. Smoking pot is AGAINST THE LAW. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Speeders pick and choose what laws to obey and their crime is > definitely harmful. Just like yours is, killer. (see .sig)
> > As for the interlock devices, it disappointing that they don't work as > > we'de like them to. Hopefully, they'll come up with more concrete [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's criminal coddling. DUIs are killers and maimers and if we're > not gonna lock them up, then mt the prisons right now. You got a problem with keeping a drink from driving in the first place, adolf? Or do you get off on reading about people who are killed by drunk drivers, you sick bastard?
Oh, yeah, we are about in the middle of week two and approaching week three of the gas from $3.00 at thanksgiving to $4.00 by christmas run and by my estimates, gas should be at $3.50 by now. Where's my $3.50 gas, liar. My car is starting to have a hard time running on that $2.15 crap I've been putting in it the last few days.
 Signature --
Loco Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend (a.k.a. SADDAM) admits to being a deadly speeder, psychopath and criminal coddler:
"> Have you ever driven a car faster than the legal speed limit?
Yes, but never deliberately. In fact i got a speeding ticket about 5 years ago for doing 41 in a 25. I just about kicked the cops teeth in cause i was sure he was lying. No way the SL on this wide open stretch could be 25, i thought."
Pride of America (c.k.a. Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend/ laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE/Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are Murderers (SADDAM)), 10/3/2002 Message-ID: <3c1753f7.0210030916.7b6f5dff@posting.google.com> http://tinyurl.com/5u4wg
Proof that POA is LBMHB/lbVH/SADDAM: See the following: http://tinyurl.com/ahphj
Ted Kennedy - President of DDDAMM (Drunk Driving Divers Against Mad Mothers) - 16 Dec 2006 14:37 GMT Someone wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Speeders & Drunk >Drivers are MURDERERS said in rec.autos.driving: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Just like yours is, killer. (see .sig) You could have added the "60/55 experiment" as well.
What do you use to keep Aunt Judy's better quotes organized with?
>> > As for the interlock devices, it disappointing that they don't work as >> > we'de like them to. Hopefully, they'll come up with more concrete [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >gas, liar. My car is starting to have a hard time running on that $2.15 >crap I've been putting in it the last few days. I asked it that, too, over in misc.invest.stocks. The moron had problems getting onto a web site, and believed that Al Queda shut it down. ROTFLMAO.
---
Don't steal; the government hates competition!
necromancer - 16 Dec 2006 16:08 GMT Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Ted Kennedy - President of DDDAMM (Drunk Driving Divers Against Mad Mothers) said in rec.autos.driving:
> You could have added the "60/55 experiment" as well. > > What do you use to keep Aunt Judy's better quotes organized with? My newsreader (Microplanet Gravity) does it for me.
> I asked it that, too, over in misc.invest.stocks. The moron had > problems getting onto a web site, and believed that Al Queda shut it > down. ROTFLMAO. LOL! Just like it thinks that W is going to be elected to a third term!
 Signature -- Loco Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend admits to being a deadly speeder:
"There's a 55mph freeway near where i live and if i do 50, everybody passes me. But if i do 60 very few do." --Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend/laura bush - VEHICULAR HOMICIDE/ Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are Murderers (SADDAM) 12/17/2004 ref: http://tinyurl.com/np3y6 Message ID: <1103257015.147448.55640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
Ted Kennedy - President of DDDAMM (Drunk Driving Divers Against Mad Mothers) - 16 Dec 2006 16:32 GMT Someone wrote:
>> What do you use to keep Aunt Judy's better quotes organized with? > >My newsreader (Microplanet Gravity) does it for me. I might have to look into that; thanks. I've been using Agent for so long, though, it'll be hard to give it up. :-/
---
Don't steal; the government hates competition!
necromancer - 16 Dec 2006 16:46 GMT Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Ted Kennedy - President of DDDAMM (Drunk Driving Divers Against Mad Mothers) said in rec.autos.driving:
> Someone wrote: > >> What do you use to keep Aunt Judy's better quotes organized with? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I might have to look into that; thanks. I've been using Agent for so > long, though, it'll be hard to give it up. :-/ Here's a link if you want to give it a try.
http://lightning.prohosting.com/~tbates/gravity/
The company went out of business long ago, but the author still makes the program available.
 Signature Carl Troller melts down in another victory for sensible driving over the rabid "slow = safe," nanny-nazis:
"I didn't realize this was some teenage head-butting contest. You just made me sick enough to leave for good." --"Brad," (a.k.a. Carl Troller), 12/08/2006
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/ylf955 Message ID: 1165563989.317954.88270@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Ted Kennedy - President of DDDAMM (Drunk Driving Divers Against Mad Mothers) - 16 Dec 2006 14:35 GMT Someone wrote:
>Speeders pick and choose what laws to obey and their crime is >definitely harmful. Which explains your admission of doing 60 in a 55, as well as 41 in a 25.
No need to thank me for changing the subject to your hypocrisy; more than happy to help!
---
Don't steal; the government hates competition!
John Graeme - 14 Dec 2006 17:48 GMT > > Screw this BS. If we can imprison harmless pot smokers, we can > > imprison deadly drunk drivers. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to obey - that's why > they (pot smokers) get locked up. You're confusing what is illegal with what is *harmful*. Smoking pot is not in itself harmful to anyone, even the user and certainly not others.
As far as that line in the original post that alcohol-related fatalities are unchanged in the past decade, it's BS. The total number of drunk-driving fatalities declined by 32% between 1982 and 2005 while the number of vehicle-miles increased by 86%. So the *rate* of drunk-driving fatalities fell by something like 80% or 90%. To keep declining as fast as it was, the rate would have to go into negative numbers!
http://www.alcoholstats.com/page.aspx?id=136 Drunk-Driving Fatalities, Miles Traveled, Vehicles, Drivers and Population 1982-2005 While the total number of drunk-driving fatalities has declined 39 percent since 1982, the numbers for vehicle miles traveled, registered motor vehicles, licensed drivers, and the total U.S. population have increased. In fact, the number of vehicle miles traveled has increased 86 percent, the number of registered motor vehicles has increased 61 percent, the number of licensed drivers has increased 32 percent, and the total U.S. population has increased 28 percent since 1982. Sources: Federal Highway Administration, U.S. Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, NHTSA August 2006 Report
MADD distorts many of the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration statistics to serve their own self-interest. Often the states and other entities do the same. See the following excerpt from an article on how it was done in one case:
A RIDL for MADD --Paul Mulshine, Newark Star-Ledger, 20 July 2003
I got my renewed car registration in the mail the other day. With it was a notice about drunken driving. It included the following statement: "Nearly half of all fatal accidents involve a drunken driver."...[The Department of Motor Vehicles] had gotten the information from Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD): "In 2002, 17,970 people were killed in crashes involving alcohol, representing 42% of the 42,850 people killed in all traffic crashes."...
National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration spokesman...pointed out that the "alcohol-related" category employed by MADD includes a great number of accidents in which the participants were either not drunk or not driving. If a car hits you as you walk across the street after having a glass of wine with dinner, for example, then the 0.01 blood-alcohol content in your corpse will be sufficient for NHTSA to classify your untimely demise as alcohol-related--even though the driver was totally sober....NHTSA statistics [show that only] about 21% of drivers in fatal accidents have a blood-alcohol content above 0.08 [the new, lower national standard for drunk driving]
RIDL (Responsibility in DUI Laws, www.ridl.us) director...computer scientist Jeanne Pruett said of MADD, "They're trying desperately to make the problem worse than it is. They have to justify their existence."
The actual number of people killed annually in accidents involving drunken drivers is not 18,000 per year but 7,500...and most of those victims are the drunken drivers themselves. For example, almost a third of the drunken drivers involved in fatal crashes are on motorcycles. Many others kill only themselves when they run off the road late at night....The number of innocent people killed by drunken drivers is about 2,500 annually.
<end quote> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Even that last figure is an exaggeration, since it assumes that the drunk drivers caused all the accidents they were involved in and that the accident was due to the alcohol. In many cases, they may be driving perfectly well and be hit by a sober driver. There was one famous case of a guy convicted of a drunk-driving fatality where he was just stopped at a traffic light and was rear-ended by a sober driver.
The DEA made similar claims about marijuana not long ago--that nearly half of reckless drivers tested positive--which were similarly shown to be fudging the statistics.
Chuck Whealton - 15 Dec 2006 09:36 GMT > You're confusing what is illegal with what is *harmful*. Smoking pot > is not in itself harmful to anyone, even the user and certainly not > others. John, I'm not confusing it. Despite the fact that I won't touch it, I'd probably have to agree that it's not anywhere near as harmful as it's been made out to be.
Nonetheless, it can lead to accidents and fatalities on the road (people falling asleep and just being too wasted from it) and I think that's what we're really talking about here. I find it odd that Laura would say that drunk driving is so bad (which it is) and call pot smokers innocent. They can also cause accidents and fatalities. Maybe not as many, I'll agree with that, but if people are chastising others for DUI, driving while on prescription medication, etc., then I don't believe pot should be treated any differently.
Charles R. Whealton Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
Motorhead Lawyer - 15 Dec 2006 19:45 GMT > breaking a law. It's that simple. Smoking pot is AGAINST THE LAW. > You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to obey - that's why > they (pot smokers) get locked up. You and the vast majority of Americans are missing something here, Chuck, . OF COURSE you can pick and choose what laws you want to obey - as long as you're prepared to deal with the consquences. But you ALWAYS have the choice of breaking a law, whether it's spitting on the sidewalk (illegal) or murdering your neighbors and burying them in the backyard (also illegal). -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)
necromancer - 15 Dec 2006 19:55 GMT Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), Motorhead Lawyer said in rec.autos.driving:
<<ECP removed>>
> You and the vast majority of Americans are missing something here, > Chuck, . OF COURSE you can pick and choose what laws you want to obey > - as long as you're prepared to deal with the consquences. But you > ALWAYS have the choice of breaking a law, whether it's spitting on the > sidewalk (illegal) or murdering your neighbors and burying them in the > backyard (also illegal). The thing that gets me is that with the severe penalties for "murdering your neighbors..." (you can get the death penalty for that here in GA) that some people still do it. And here some call for severe (and disproportional) penalties for speeding.
BTW, howz the wife???? ;)
 Signature --
"There's not a shred of evidence that the jerries murdered anything close to 7 million jooz. Another monstrous lie just like the 9-11 official story. "
-- Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend, 12/01/2004 Ref: http://tinyurl.com/9oog5 Message-ID: <780ea958.0411302101.5ef25456@posting.google.com>
Chuck Whealton - 16 Dec 2006 11:30 GMT > > breaking a law. It's that simple. Smoking pot is AGAINST THE LAW. > > You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to obey - that's why [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > C.R. Krieger > (Been there; done that) OK, that's certainly a valid point, C.R., I'm just saying I find it odd that a person so against driving drunk would say smoking pot is OK. That's all. But you're absolutely correct.
Charles R. Whealton Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
Chuck Whealton - 16 Dec 2006 11:34 GMT > > breaking a law. It's that simple. Smoking pot is AGAINST THE LAW. > > You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to obey - that's why [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > C.R. Krieger > (Been there; done that) Yea, you're certainly right on that, C.R. I just find it awfully odd that on one hand, Laura will talk about how bad DUI is (which it is) but on the other hand, talk about how relatively innocent pot smokers are. Considering the thread is about drunk driving, I just equate the the pot smoking with drunk driving as well, and I don't think it's really anymore innocent.
Charles R. Whealton Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
Hester Mofet - 16 Dec 2006 13:28 GMT > > > breaking a law. It's that simple. Smoking pot is AGAINST THE LAW. > > > You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to obey - that's why [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Charles R. Whealton > Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com Is she talking about people just smoking pot or smoking pot and driving? Big difference. I don't care how much people smoke, drink, snort or inject, but when they get behind the wheel of a car, boat, motorcycle, etc. is when it becomes a problem.
Hester Mofet
Nate Nagel - 16 Dec 2006 13:38 GMT >>>breaking a law. It's that simple. Smoking pot is AGAINST THE LAW. >>>You can't just pick and choose which laws you want to obey - that's why [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Charles R. Whealton > Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com Sure it is, if the smoking of pot is done at home or somewhere else where heavy machinery is not operated.
From a personal safety standpoint, I'd still rather be around someone who's stoned than drunk. There are angry drunks, but I've yet to meet someone who's angry when stoned.
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
Matthew T. Russotto - 18 Dec 2006 02:02 GMT > From a personal safety standpoint, I'd still rather be around someone >who's stoned than drunk. There are angry drunks, but I've yet to meet >someone who's angry when stoned. Well, you know the old saw about the pot smokers on the road -- they're the ones waiting for the stop sign to turn green.
 Signature There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one.
John Graeme - 16 Dec 2006 16:32 GMT > Yea, you're certainly right on that, C.R. I just find it awfully odd > that on one hand, Laura will talk about how bad DUI is (which it is) > but on the other hand, talk about how relatively innocent pot smokers > are. Considering the thread is about drunk driving, I just equate the > the pot smoking with drunk driving as well, and I don't think it's > really anymore innocent. There's a big difference between just drinking or just smoking pot and drinking/using pot plus driving (at least if you do them to the point of being impaired). And there is a lack of symmetry in the comparison (and therefore an unfairness)--Just drinking is not illegal, but just using pot is. Actually the same could be said for other drugs as well.
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