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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / January 2007

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Perspective on speed and adhesion.

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Alan Baker - 11 Jan 2007 05:10 GMT
It has been suggested here that at cars limits of adhesion at 100 mph
are so different from the common experience at 75 mph that one must
explore them fully at 100 mph if one is to be "competent" at that speed.

Let's look at some numbers:

A Porsche 996 (the official designation of the current 911) generates
136 kg of rear lift and 64 kg of front lift at 157 mph. The cars mass is
about 1400 kg so that is a reduction in weight on the wheels of
approximately 1/7.

<http://www.pacoza.co.za/spec-996.htm>
<http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/aero/tech_aero.htm>

But! Aerodynamics gave a square law that comes into play as well:

The lift of a body is proportional to the square of its speed. You can
understand this from the fact that the amount of air encountered is
proportional to the speed and the change in velocity of that air
encountered is *also* proportional to that speed. Twice as much air,
being deflected twice as fast results in four times as much force.

Hence at 78.5 mph, a speed at which I'm sure most people would agree
most drivers have a lot of experience, the lift forces are going to be
roughly 34 kg at the rear and only 16 kg at the front, for a grand total
reduction of only 1/28 of the cars weight; about 3.5%! And at 100 mph,
the numbers are going to be 55 kg rear and 26 kg front, or a reduction
of about 6% of the vehicles weight.

So in going from 78.5 to 100 mph, the driver will experience a reduction
in weight (and thus limit of adhesion) from 96.5% to 94% of the vehicles
theoretical maximum. Not an outlandish change with which to deal, I'm
sure you'd agree.

But there's more! The Porsche 996 has a body shape particularly suited
to generating lift in the first place and thus has a spoiler to deal
with that lift (which in particular lightens the back end of the car and
thus changes the handling balance), and those numbers are for a 996 with
its rear spoiler *down*. Would not an examination of the numbers with
the spoiler *up* perhaps be more consistent with what we might find in a
road car of less extreme shape?

Spoiler up:

Speed         Rear       Front    adhesion available
157 mph       14 kg      5 kg           98.6%
100 mph       5.7 kg     2 kg           99.4%
78.5 mph      3.5 kg     1.3 kg         99.7%
60 mph        2 kg       0.7 kg         ...

I trust everyone can see how silly this is getting. To suggest that a
typical road car's limits are going to change radically between 60 mph
and 100 mph is just ludicrous.

Signature

'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)

spamTHISbrp@yahoo.com - 11 Jan 2007 13:48 GMT
> It has been suggested here that at cars limits of adhesion at 100 mph
> are so different from the common experience at 75 mph that one must
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> 'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
> on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)

Its probably less the change in adhesion that catches people, and more
the increase in energy and momentum.

Do away with all the units, juyst look at v^2
m = vehicle mass

60 mph- 1/2 (60x60) m  = 1800 x m energy units

75 mph- 1/2 (75x75) m  = 2812.5 x m energy units

100 mph- 1/2 (100x100) m  = 5000 x m energy units

5000/1800 = 2.78 times the energy that has to be managed at 100 vs 60,
and 1.4 times the momentum.

Any turns/manauvers the car must do are done, of course, through the
tires.

The tires have a limit as to how much "energy/unit time" you can shove
through them. (that last was very crude and scientifically horrendous,
but you get the idea)

Dave
Ashton Crusher - 11 Jan 2007 22:08 GMT
>It has been suggested here that at cars limits of adhesion at 100 mph
>are so different from the common experience at 75 mph that one must
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>typical road car's limits are going to change radically between 60 mph
>and 100 mph is just ludicrous.

I think you are missing some significant items, lots of things do not
change linearly and some things are actually a step function.  Some
cars I've driven have changed manners dramatically at around 90 mph,
can't tell you exactly why, only that it happens.  I can theorize that
in some cases the changes in Up/Down forces simply puts the car in a
different "stance" and an unstable one at that.  Also, road roughness
that would not upset a particular car going 80 mph might toss it
around way too much at 100 mph.  If the car sidesteps 0.3 inch over a
given bump at 80 mph it may not change its direction much, but at 100
mph, that same physical bump does not produce the same sidestep, the
shocks and tires react differently and the time spent "in the air"
could be greater, and the total sidestep could be 0.6 inch, perhaps
enough to create a directional change needing countering, then when
countered, the next bump could make it worse.  Just no way to know.
And that ignores wind buffeting, which may also be a significant step
function. There is a lot more going on then simply adhesion out in the
real world.
Ted Kennedy - President of DDDAMM (Drunk Driving Divers Against Mad Mothers) - 12 Jan 2007 11:44 GMT
>It has been suggested here that at cars limits of adhesion at 100 mph
>are so different from the common experience at 75 mph that one must
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>typical road car's limits are going to change radically between 60 mph
>and 100 mph is just ludicrous.

Anything suggested by gpsboi is just ludicrous. I know my grasp of the
english language isn't the best, but gpsboi's is almost non-existent.

Signature

gpstard (gpsman@driversmail.com) demonstrates his inability to comprehend the
simple differences of the definitions of the monosyllabic words "time" and "chance:"
(Message-ID: <1167151218.287827.24230@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>)
Why don't you argue that the faster one drives the less time spent driving and available to be involved in an accident?

"Laura Bush Murdered Her Boyfriend" brags of it's homosexuallity:
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie.

: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en

"Laura Bush Murdered Her Boyfriend" brags of it's ability to operate a vehicle:
I must be doing something right to go 3 1/2 years without a fatal crash.
: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/msg/a376114ee8a61824?hl=en

Joshua Calvert <joshua_l_calvert@hotmail.com> demonstrates his lack of understanding of the terms "sarcasm", "irony", and "hypocrisy":
Poor rightard, forced to whine about an 40 year old event.
Message-ID: <Xns970A68202F1C5joshualcalverthotmai@68.6.19.6>
Eeyore - 12 Jan 2007 11:53 GMT
> It has been suggested here that at cars limits of adhesion at 100 mph
> are so different from the common experience at 75 mph that one must
> explore them fully at 100 mph if one is to be "competent" at that speed.

Anyone suggesting that has simply never driven that fast !

Why are my tyres rated for 130 mph ?

Graham
Alan Baker - 12 Jan 2007 16:54 GMT
> > It has been suggested here that at cars limits of adhesion at 100 mph
> > are so different from the common experience at 75 mph that one must
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Graham

That rating has nothing whatsoever to do with their limit of adhesion.

Signature

'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)

Motorhead Lawyer - 12 Jan 2007 20:59 GMT
> > Why are my tyres rated for 130 mph ?
> >
> That rating has nothing whatsoever to do with their limit of adhesion.

No; but the 'R' on some of mine does ...
--
C.R. Krieger
(Waiting for Yokohama to ship me my new ones!)
 
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