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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / March 2007Bus crash in Atlanta blamed on exit design?!!
The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid marks. But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not the man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our society has to be made 100% idiot proof?! -------------------------------------------------------- Animated reconstruction of the crash: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/02/bus.accident/index.html Fatigue, however, is not believed to be a factor in the crash, he said. Officials said a fresh bus driver took over about 4:30 a.m., about an hour before the wreck (yeah right!!). A preliminary investigation shows that the bus, headed south on I-75, took a high occupancy vehicle (HOV) lane exiting to the left off the interstate, Moss said. However, the bus apparently failed to stop at the top of the ramp and "took a bit of a right turn in an attempt to negotiate it" before plunging to the road below. (Animation: Route taken before tragedy) Focus turns to left-side exit lane in bus tragedy http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/03/bus.crash/index.html Highway safety experts investigating the crash, which killed six and injured 29, will study whether the design of a left-side Interstate highway exit may have been a factor in the accident, an official said Saturday. The bus, which was being driven by a fresh driver during an overnight trip, drove up a left-side exit on Interstate 75 just north of downtown and crossed a multilane highway overpass before crashing though a guardrail and plunging onto the highway below, said National Transportation Safety Board Member Kitty Higgins. "We know that there have been numerous accidents at Exit 252 for Northside Drive," Higgins said, referring to the accident site, where a high-occupancy vehicle (HOV) lane and an exit lane run side by side. "We are also interested in the history of the HOV lane and exit ramp design and will be looking at the signage, highway markings and other motorist warning devices that were available before exiting at that particular spot." There were no skid marks leading up to a stop sign at the end of the exit, police said. Witnesses said there was "no indication that there was a concerted effort to stop the bus" before it reached the top of the exit ramp and entered the multi-lane bridge over the highway, said Maj. Calvin Moss, commander of special operations for Atlanta police. > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid > marks. But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not > the man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our > society has to be made 100% idiot proof?! I agree with you, but also hold that left exits are piss poor design. nate  Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >> The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that >> you're SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I agree with you, but also hold that left exits are piss poor design. Sure, but such designs are used for a reason: to save money and space. 223rem <223rem@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >>> The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that >>> you're SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Sure, but such designs are used for a reason: to save money and space. No, we're talking about HOV lane exits. These are IN ADDITION to the right-hand exits that non-HOV-lane traffic uses, which saves neither money nor space. The actual purpose of these left exits is twofold: one is to encourage car-pooling by giving HOV lane users a little perq; the other is to prevent HOV lane users from crossing 5 lanes of normal (i.e. stopped) traffic in order to exit the freeway. SignatureI'm a wreckless driver and damn proud of it! > 223rem <223rem@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > prevent HOV lane users from crossing 5 lanes of normal (i.e. stopped) > traffic in order to exit the freeway. Uh, this particular left exit was *not* to an HOV lane, but up to a cross bridge overpass *T* intersection. And that *is* a poor design. There are several in Virginia like that. >> 223rem <223rem@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > cross bridge overpass *T* intersection. And that *is* a poor design. > There are several in Virginia like that. You dont understand. That was the HOV's lane "private" exit to the cross street. There also is an exit on the right. See here: http://tinyurl.com/3yh568 >>> 223rem <223rem@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/3yh568 Ahhh, yes, I see. > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid > marks. Crappy DOT headlamps? > But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not > the man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our > society has to be made 100% idiot proof?! Left side on/off ramps should not exist IMO, but that has nothing to do with crashes like this On Mar 4, 10:41 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote: > In article <KKidnWTPrZcidXfYnZ2dnUVZ_tunn...@insightbb.com>, 223rem wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Left side on/off ramps should not exist IMO, but that has nothing to do > with crashes like this Considering the time in which the crash occurred, I have doubts that the replacement driver was as "fresh" as necessary. A lot of left exits/entrances are of older design (1960s/70s IIRC). A society that thrives on making people idiots will of course make attampts to idiot-proof everything, or else file tons of lawsuits and go for more government oversight (as if it isn't bad enough as it is). >On Mar 4, 10:41 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >the replacement driver was as "fresh" as necessary. A lot of left >exits/entrances are of older design (1960s/70s IIRC). The story said he's only been driving for an hour. Another story I read indicated there have been several accidents at this ramp. Sounds like poor design was at least part of the problem. >A society that thrives on making people idiots will of course make >attampts to idiot-proof everything, or else file tons of lawsuits and >go for more government oversight (as if it isn't bad enough as it is). > The driver was very probably asleep. Sure, but let's blame the road layout instead. It's 'for the children'. Graham > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid > marks. But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not > the man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our > society has to be made 100% idiot proof?! Yep, I agree. Just out of curiosity, not ghoulishness, I drove down the very route the bus took, a couple of hours ago. I used the HOV exit ramp up to Northside Drive, the whole bit. It's pretty damn clear for anyone half-a.s paying attention that they are exiting the freeway, all the way up the ramp. There is a big EXIT sign at the beginning, with arrow, and big STOP ahead signs on either side of the ramp as you drive up, and of course stop signs at the end of the ramp itself. The AJC (local Atlanta major paper) has a huge headline in today's edition: HOW DID IT HAPPEN or someting similar. How? I could write the story with one line: Driver wasn't paying attention. sh.t, he must've been semi-conscious. On Mar 4, 1:32 pm, floresriki...@hotmail.com wrote: > > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > similar. How? I could write the story with one line: Driver wasn't > paying attention. sh.t, he must've been semi-conscious. Certainly. How many people are fully functional at 4:30-5ish AM? They don't call that "graveyard shift" for nothing. I'd call it driver error, SADDAM may call it 5 counts of murder, but he paid the main penalty for the F-up. > Certainly. How many people are fully functional at 4:30-5ish AM? My personal solution: the largest size Starbucks coffee + 2 shots of espresso. It always works. > On Mar 4, 1:32 pm, floresriki...@hotmail.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Certainly. How many people are fully functional at 4:30-5ish AM? I am. When I'm driving my truck I like to get going at 5Am. I do a lot better during the day and I get the day done with quicker. Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those words loosely), 223rem said in rec.autos.driving: > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid > marks. But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not > the man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our > society has to be made 100% idiot proof?! <<snip article>> Most likely a tired driver who is unfamiliar with downtown Atlanta. There are left exits on the HOV lanes which are on the inside of the highway (a place that tose of us in the sticks would have a median); heaven forbid if the environmentally correct in their carpool and/or hybrid and on their high horse have to mingle with the rest of us to enter/exit the freeway.... SignatureLoco Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend admits to being a red light runner: "The cameras don't catch everyone. I have never been nailed for this." Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend, 5/9/06 Ref: http://tinyurl.com/ee4wq Message ID: 9nb162p1idam39jhmv5s2g0b7booh67stc@4ax.com 223rem <223rem@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >The driver was very probably asleep. Probably. The reports keep repeating the fact that the drivers were swapped out a short time before the crash, but just because a new crew was swapped in doesn't mean the new crew was fresh and well-rested. Or maybe the wife was giving him a hummer? :) >How can you not realize that you're >SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid >marks. But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not >the man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our >society has to be made 100% idiot proof?! SoCal has a TON of these left-hand HOV lane exits. If they are truly a bad design, why aren't the SoCal news media full of reports of crashes like the one in Atlanta? SignatureI'm a wreckless driver and damn proud of it! > 223rem <223rem@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > bad design, why aren't the SoCal news media full of reports of crashes > like the one in Atlanta? Because they don't end abruptly at a "T" intersection where the top of of the "T" is a 30 foot drop perhaps? > > 223rem <223...@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Most exit lanes end 'abruptly' at a stop or a light. The 30 drop has nothing to do with the design. Harry K > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid > marks. But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not the > man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our society has > to be made 100% idiot proof?! Hell, as a truck driver I've been on ramps so tight and angled totally wrong that I worry about the truck turning over. I465 in Indianapolis had one ramp that was always a nightmare. From southbound I465 onto I70 eastbound, you had to negotiate a royally tight turn and steep grade. After numerous rollovers and accidents they finally woke up and redesigned it. There are many instances of exit ramps where they had little room to use and as a result, you are forced to go down a steep grade and make a tight turn. Another example, is from I70 westbound to I75 southbound near Dayton Ohio. It matters not if the exit ramp is in the left lane, it matters as to how much room is available to make the turns. At night, travelling unfamiliar, new territory makes the negotiation even that much more difficult. What I fail to understand is, one report said the exit ramp was not completed? Then why was the bus on it to begin with? Then yes, I agree, some designers have no clues as to how vehicles will handle the design. It sounds like somebody just slapped it together in a hurry and said build it with no testing. That is an accident waiting to happen. Just be glad it wasn't a tanker truck carrying hazardous material that could have endangered the entire city. > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid > marks. But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not the > man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our society has > to be made 100% idiot proof?! After having read the article and watching the one video, I have concluded that it was not the design of the ramp itself, rather, one piss poor excuse of a bridge design. Compare the height of the bus to the retaining wall height. More than half the bus is higher than the wall. Look closer, any other means to protect rollovers? None what so ever. Any one walking alongside the bridge wall could easily fall over the edge. Blame this accident on the bridge designers then shoot the frickin bastards. > > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > could easily fall over the edge. > Blame this accident on the bridge designers then shoot the frickin bastards. How about blaming it on a driver that busted all the obvious warning signs. The bottom line is that you cannot idiot proof anything. Harry K > How about blaming it on a driver that busted all the obvious warning > signs. The bottom line is that you cannot idiot proof anything. If the driver was so out of it to do this on a left ramp, a right exit only lane would have had the same result. Poor unattentive drivers tend to gravitate to the left lane though. I find that most ramps if I just engine brake while going up hill I've slowed enough to make a left turn given my typical speed at the bottom of the ramp having also used the deacceleration area. Something as heavy as a bus should have easily slowed if the driver had just let off the throttle going uphill. Gravity is real good at slowing something heavy down as it goes uphill if no additional energy is added. If a driver cannot notice he's on a ramp's incline, then he is passed out or simply too incompetent to be driving. > Something as heavy as a bus should have easily slowed if the driver had > just let off the throttle going uphill. Gravity is real good at slowing > something heavy down as it goes uphill if no additional energy is added. Not if you're on cruise control. >> Something as heavy as a bus should have easily slowed if the driver had >> just let off the throttle going uphill. Gravity is real good at slowing >> something heavy down as it goes uphill if no additional energy is added. > > Not if you're on cruise control. Maybe the driver went to the back of the bus to use the facilities or maybe to make a sandwhich then. > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid > marks. But now it is the highway designers that are put on trial, not > the man directly responsible for the crash. Does everything in our > society has to be made 100% idiot proof?! It appears to me the bus was doing a bit of LLB'ing. Why else was he in the left lane? bob z. "bob zee" <bobzee1@gmail.com> said in rec.autos.driving: >It appears to me the bus was doing a bit of LLB'ing. Why else was he >in the left lane? In the US, HOV lanes are typically placed on the left side of the road. SignatureI'm a wreckless driver and damn proud of it! > > The driver was very probably asleep. How can you not realize that you're > > SUDDENLY CLIMBMING a fairly steep slope? Also note the absence of skid [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > bob z. He wasn't in the left lane. He was in a HOV lane which was on the left side of the highway. Harry K |
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