Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / March 2007
Why Hybrids Are Such A Hard Sell
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Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 26 Mar 2007 16:40 GMT http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20070309/bs_bw/0712b4026062
Why Hybrids Are Such A Hard Sell
By David Welch Fri Mar 9, 4:29 PM ET
Given all the buzz about hybrids, not to mention the greening of the citizenry, you'd think they would be easy to sell. They're not. After growing nicely through much of 2006, hybrid sales began to slow early this year. The gasoline-electric vehicles now make up 1.8% of all vehicle sales, says Edmunds.com, down from a peak of 2.1% in October.
One major reason is that hybrids typically cost $3,000-plus more than conventional cars. As a result, automakers in recent weeks have been slashing prices. Less than a year ago, Toyota dealers got full price for the Prius. Now you can immediately lease one for a slim $219 a month. Ford Motor Co. (NYSE:F - News) is also cutting the price of the latest version of its Escape hybrid. In fact, in February, carmakers spent an average of $1,500 on incentives per hybrid, says Edmunds--triple what they laid out in January.
The discounting helped the likes of Toyota Motor Corp. (NYSE:TM - News) and Ford post decent sales in February, but, as the Big Three know all too well, ladling out incentives is no way to make decent profits. Making matters worse, just as hybrid sales start slowing, automakers are gearing up to launch a slew of new models. At least 30 hybrids will hit the market in the next 20 months. That will bring the number to more than 40, up from 12 today, says Boston research firm Global Insight. "Now that the automakers have tapped the early adopters, they're going after the mass market," says Jesse Toprak, an Edmunds analyst. "For consumers, the answer is often no."
Tailing Off A few years ago, automakers decided to put hybrid technology in regular models. The hope was to move beyond the geek chic of the Prius and win over everyone else. Hybrid would be another option, like , say, navigation. If enough people bought hybrids, carmakers figured, they would achieve sufficient economies of scale to eliminate the big premium over conventional models.
That hasn't happened. And some models have suffered badly. Honda Motor Co. (NYSE:HMC - News) sold 70% fewer hybrid Accords in 2006; Toyota has sold 24% fewer Lexus RX 400h sport-utility vehicles so far this year. The fuel savings are simply too puny to offset the hybrid premium. With gas at $2.50 a gallon, it would take 10 years to recoup the extra $3,000 cost of the Accord hybrid.
Honda and Toyota are trying to have it both ways: putting the technology in regular models while coming up with new hybrid-only cars that, like the Prius, confer instant uber-greenness. Lexus is considering one, and Honda plans a subcompact.
Getting prices down--and not by discounting--is the long-term solution. That means finding a way to make the cars more cheaply. Batteries account for about half the hybrid premium. But cheaper lithium ion cells won't appear for several years. Cutting costs further requires achieving those elusive economies of scale, which means building and selling more hybrids. That's Toyota's strategy; it hopes to sell 160,000 Priuses this year, up from 107,000 in 2006.
Pulling that off will require deft marketing, especially since the government this fall will start requiring a more accurate measure of fuel economy. The Prius' claimed 55 mpg will likely drop to a less compelling 46 mpg. Both Toyota and Ford are planning major advertising campaigns. And discounts on all hybrids are here to stay for a while.
Look closely and you can see the automakers hedging their bets. Toyota is pushing into diesel. Ditto for Honda, which may not build a new hybrid Accord. Nissan (NasdaqCM:NSANY - News) is waiting to see how its hybrid Altima does before putting the technology into other vehicles. Honda's planning chief for North America, Dan Bonawitz, likely speaks for most of his counterparts when he says: "There won't be a giant surge in hybrid sales unless there's an oil crisis."
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Hybrids are just anonther scam to fleece the public. The way to improve gas mileage is just smaller cars with fewer of the heavy useless frills the automakers love to add. Detroit could easily make a damn good 2000 pound IC family car for $8,000 and it would give 50 mpg.
editor@netpath.net - 26 Mar 2007 19:10 GMT On Mar 26, 10:40 am, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hybrids are just anonther scam to fleece the public. The way to improve > gas mileage is just smaller cars with fewer of the heavy useless frills > the automakers love to add. Detroit could easily make a damn good 2000 > pound IC family car for $8,000 and it would give 50 mpg. Bullshit. Did even the "old" Volkswagen Beetle - about that weight - get 50 mpg? Did the Ford Pinto - about that weight? As for the $8,000 sticker price new, that's laughable. Even most all motorcycles sell for way over that new. The four-wheelers hunters drive in the woods are about $8,000 - and their only "air conditioning" is the breeze!
No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
David Johnston - 26 Mar 2007 20:11 GMT >Hybrids are just anonther scam to fleece the public. The way to improve >gas mileage is just smaller cars with fewer of the heavy useless frills >the automakers love to add. Hybrids ARE smaller cars. Which is another reason why the public won't buy them.
editor@netpath.net - 27 Mar 2007 00:05 GMT > Hybrids ARE smaller cars. Which is another reason why the public > won't buy them. The public also won't buy them because the true expenses of a hybrid are now undoubtably starting to become apparent. That giant battery pack only lasts so long before needing replacement - just like any other rechargeable battery pack for, say, a digicam; it's just that the cost of replacing the battery pack on a hybrid will be high as hell. And now is about when the batteries on the first hybrids sold to the public are going to start needing replacement. See what trade-in value a hybrid has two years from now when the costs of battery replacement are well-known.
No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
qwerty - 27 Mar 2007 01:34 GMT >> Hybrids ARE smaller cars. Which is another reason why the public >> won't buy them. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > trade-in value a hybrid has two years from now when the costs of > battery replacement are well-known.\\ "The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear."
"In the future if a battery needs replacement out of warranty, it is likely to be replaced either with a new battery pack or with a reconditioned/overhauled unit. A new industry may arise that is similar to automatic transmissions where the battery is replaced with a rebuilt unit, then the removed pack would go for re-building. This will result in a lower replacement cost for hybrid vehicle owners."
http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Reliability.htm
There us 4-6 month waiting list for a Prius and that they're selling well above MSRP! Hybrids also retain their value, or even apreciate in value!
The Honda Insight was more of a concept car than a practical family car.
"Fri, May. 19, 2006"
"At Toyota of Sunnyvale, about 300 people are on the waiting list to get a Prius. That's a four- to six-month wait"
"``The whole Civic lineup is selling like crazy,'' said Sage Marie, a Honda spokesman, adding that waiting lists vary by dealer. "Lee Cai, sales manager at Anderson Honda in Palo Alto, said 25 to 30 people are on the list for a Civic Hybrid at his dealership, about a six-week wait."
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/industries/automo...
"Even as new gas-electric vehicles enter the market, used hybrids are strong sellers."
"``Older used hybrids like the 2001 Honda Insight are retaining their value well,'' said Lisa Aloisio, an AutoTrader spokeswoman. ``Newer used hybrids like the 2006 Toyota Prius are actually demanding a premium over base MSRP.''"
"``The nice thing about the strong used Prius market is that our customers that purchased a Prius one and two years ago have found that their vehicles are worth as much today as when they bought them new,''"
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/industries/automotive/6646866.htm
BTW, even the U.S. military is going hybrid! I guess that make them a bunch of Lefty-Loony-Environmental-Wackos too! :-)
"Military looks to develop heavy hybrid trucks"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12597581/from/RSS/
axolotl - 27 Mar 2007 07:59 GMT >Hybrids are just anonther scam to fleece the public. I feel so fleeced when, after 300 miles of driving, I pull up to a gas pump and put in a measly 6 gallons of gas. Meanwhile, the goofy looking giant pick-up at the next pump is sucking down $60 worth. I especially enjoy noting how the pick-up isn't hauling anything. Seems to me like the real fleecing is the moronic ideal so many Americans buy into whereby manly men must drive pick-ups, because that somehow proves they work hard and get things done. Hey - might be true of a few cowboys somewhere, but for the most part these clowns never do jack squat with their pick-up, aside from maybe moving a buddy's sofa once every few years.
editor@netpath.net - 27 Mar 2007 15:21 GMT > I feel so fleeced when, after 300 miles of driving, I pull up to a gas > pump and put in a measly 6 gallons of gas. Meanwhile, the goofy looking > giant pick-up at the next pump is sucking down $60 worth. I especially > enjoy noting how the pick-up isn't hauling anything. The important fact is that pickup CAN haul lots of stuff. You can start a carpentry business out of a pickup - but not out of a Prius. You can load your four-wheeler into the back of that pickup - but not into the back of a Prius - if you want to take it to a distant hunting spot.
No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
axolotl - 28 Mar 2007 10:25 GMT >> I feel so fleeced when, after 300 miles of driving, I pull up to a gas >> pump and put in a measly 6 gallons of gas. Meanwhile, the goofy looking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The important fact is that pickup CAN haul lots of stuff. You can >start a carpentry business out of a pickup - but not out of a Prius. Sure I could.
But more importantly, let's do the math on Prius ownership versus large pick-up ownership.
If the average American drives 12,000 miles per year, and with gas at $2.70/gallon, the Prius driver buys about 240 gallons for $648. The large pick-up owner buys about 650 gallons for $1,755. Spending $1,107 less on gas annually, I can easily rent any size truck I need whenever I have to haul something.
>You can load your four-wheeler into the back of that pickup - but not >into the back of a Prius - if you want to take it to a distant hunting >spot. Only an idiot who likes wasting $1,107 per year would want to do that.
Watch 100 pick-ups go by. You probably won't see a single one hauling a load that a Prius couldn't handle.
Fran - 27 Mar 2007 15:45 GMT On Mar 27, 1:40 am, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" Accord hybrid.
> Hybrids are just anonther scam to fleece the public. The way to improve > gas mileage is just smaller cars with fewer of the heavy useless frills > the automakers love to add. Detroit could easily make a damn good 2000 > pound IC family car for $8,000 and it would give 50 mpg. Personally, I believe flexfuel and vehicles adapted to run on biodiesel are a better bet until electrical storage technology (batteries or capacitors) becomes more cost and operationally feasible.
Given that one can make butanol from cellulosic waste or as a byproduct of transesterification of lipids drawn from algae to biodeisel processes, and algae feedstock can be agricultural run off or sewage or bioreactors attached to CO2-emitting smoke stacks, this seems a highly apt approach.
You get a fuel that is CO2 neutral and also burns far cleaner and produces merchantable byproducts like glycerol and fertiliser and protein.
Since butanol can be used neat in gasoline vehicles and piped (because its non-corrosive, unlike ethanol) and has a similar energy content to petrol, its fuel economy and range there's no need to transform the existing fleet to use the fuel. Because butanol delivers good torque at low revs, trials have shown that people use the throttle more sparingly in most circumstances, so that total fuel economy is very comparable to existing gasoline despite a slightly lower octane rating. A bonus from the butanol production process is that hydrogen is a byproduct -- and this too is merchantable.
Diesel technology is of course well understood. Biodiesel vehicles also emit less PM and other VOCs, far lower quanta of hydrocarbons, and in lifecycle terms NOx neutral.
Both fuels can be blended so that consumers can switch between fuels depending on availability.
Fran
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