Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / November 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Red read turn-signals

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
oprah.chopra@gmail.com - 01 Oct 2007 02:28 GMT
I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
turning, and the red is no where near as conspicuous as amber/yellow
turn signals... Ill never buy a car that has such a dumb cost saving
feature! It used to be only american cars had this , but now you can
see it many imports as well... Thankfully toyota still mostly does it
with yellow, which is all I would buy.
Nate Nagel - 01 Oct 2007 02:31 GMT
> I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
> This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> see it many imports as well... Thankfully toyota still mostly does it
> with yellow, which is all I would buy.

write to NHTSA, those dumbasses are the ones that allow it.  no
civilized country does save the US and Canada (and maybe Mexico?) ECE
regs prohibit this implementation, there you must have amber rear
directionals.

nate

Signature

replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Daniel W. Rouse Jr. - 01 Oct 2007 06:32 GMT
> > I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
> > This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> regs prohibit this implementation, there you must have amber rear
> directionals.

Interestingly enough, I'm seeing that a lot of newer cars are not using
amber/orange turn signals anymore, and have actually started once again
using red turn signals, but are also using a separate red blinker light
rather than using the same light as the brakes.

In that case, the red turn signal still isn't as immediately visible as the
amber/orange turn signal light, but it is clearly a separate blinking light
and doesn't just blink one of the brake lights.
michael.g.silva@gmail.com - 11 Oct 2007 18:44 GMT
On Oct 1, 1:32 am, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr." <dwrous...@nethere.comNOSPAM>
wrote:
> > > I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
> > > This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> amber/orange turn signal light, but it is clearly a separate blinking light
> and doesn't just blink one of the brake lights.

I couldn't agree more. I was very pissed off when returning from
Germany to the US and wanted to buy a Volkswagen.  I couldn't believe
my eyes that the Germans actually are sending cars over to the US with
red turn signals. I refused to buy the car on that point alone.
Ashton Crusher - 14 Oct 2007 11:11 GMT
>> I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
>> This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>nate

This comes up at least once a year.  While it seems intuitive that
using amber would be better there is ZERO evidence for that belief.
The studies that have looked into perception and reaction of different
brake and turn signals show no advantage to the amber.  It's just
another feel good thing.
Nate Nagel - 14 Oct 2007 14:23 GMT
>>>I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
>>>This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> brake and turn signals show no advantage to the amber.  It's just
> another feel good thing.

ISTR Daniel Stern disagreeing with that conclusion and having studies to
back up his opinion.  (Daniel, you reading this?)

It's sad (but true) that I tend to view the opinions of one guy selling
lighting equipment much more highly than I do those of NHTSA.

nate

Signature

replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Ashton Crusher - 01 Nov 2007 06:16 GMT
>>>>I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
>>>>This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>ISTR Daniel Stern disagreeing with that conclusion and having studies to
>back up his opinion.  (Daniel, you reading this?)

You are correct about the first part, he does disagree.  He never
produced any studies that backed up his position.  I found some that
actually looked at how they work in the real world.  One of them was a
study of different accident histories of the same model car that had
been produced with both the allegedly confusing all red light versus
having the ambers and reds.  There was no statistically significant
difference between them although the all red actually had better
results (but still technically not statistically different enough to
rise to the level of significance).  This falls into the same category
as many "better" things.  They are "better" in some abstract sense but
out in the real world the benefits, if they even exist, are so trivial
as to be non-existent for any practical purpose.  Does a car with
"performance tires" handle better?  Probably so.  Does that translate
into it being involved in less accidents if driven by the same set of
drivers as the same car with non-performance tires?  Probably not.
Would make an interesting study.

>It's sad (but true) that I tend to view the opinions of one guy selling
>lighting equipment much more highly than I do those of NHTSA.
>
>nate
Arif Khokar - 01 Nov 2007 06:39 GMT
> I found some that actually looked at how they work in the real world.
> One of them was a study of different accident histories of the same  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> red actually had better results (but still technically not
> statistically different enough to rise to the level of significance).

I would posit that there's no statistical difference in crash rates for
drivers who do use their turn signals versus those who don't.  Does that
 mean it doesn't matter whether one uses turn signals or not?

But, is it easier to see a blinking amber signal as opposed to a
blinking red signal in conjunction with a solid red signal?  I would say
most definitely it is.  Besides, what was the reason behind the NHTSA
ban of white front turn signals?  I'm sure that there was no statistical
difference between crash rates of cars that had white front turn signals
verus those that had amber ones.
Ashton Crusher - 05 Nov 2007 05:54 GMT
>> I found some that actually looked at how they work in the real world.
>> One of them was a study of different accident histories of the same  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>But, is it easier to see a blinking amber signal as opposed to a
>blinking red signal in conjunction with a solid red signal?

I've seen some amber implementations where the turn signal was almost
invisible.  

I would say
>most definitely it is.  Besides, what was the reason behind the NHTSA
>ban of white front turn signals?  I'm sure that there was no statistical
>difference between crash rates of cars that had white front turn signals
>verus those that had amber ones.

Interesting historical question.  Most likely they had "good reasons"
and just as likely it made no difference in accident rates.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 06 Nov 2007 01:57 GMT
[snip]

> You are correct about the first part, he does disagree.  He never
> produced any studies that backed up his position.  I found some that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> results (but still technically not statistically different enough to
> rise to the level of significance).

I'd expect that if the test were run in an environment (North American
traffic) where people were accustomed to confusing signals. They'll just
ignore them regardless of color or configuration.

Repeat this test in a country where amber turn signals have been
mandated for some time (if the authorities will permit non regulation
equipment in the country) and see if there's a difference.  

Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.
                     -- Tom Waits

Daniel J. Stern - 04 Nov 2007 21:59 GMT
> ISTR Daniel Stern disagreeing with that conclusion and having studies to
> back up his opinion.

Yup, and a skillful search will turn up the many times I posted
detailed info and links to the studies in the past. You'll probably
also find all kinds of noise from people who'll go to any lengths,
including feigning selective reading disabilities, in order to have
something to argue about.

It may interest you to know that at the International Symposium on
Automotive Lighting this past September in Darmstadt, I was talking
with a group of reputable US researchers who are wrapping up a very
detailed study for NHTSA on the matter of rear turn signal colour's
effect on traffic safety. I quote the lead researcher: "I used to
think that amber rear signals gave no significant safety benefit
compared to red ones. I can't discuss the details of the study yet,
because we haven't officially released it, but...let's just say I've
changed my thinking on the subject."

DS
Brent P - 04 Nov 2007 22:26 GMT
> It may interest you to know that at the International Symposium on
> Automotive Lighting this past September in Darmstadt, I was talking
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> because we haven't officially released it, but...let's just say I've
> changed my thinking on the subject."

Let me guess... he started driving and encountered a rhythmic brake tapper
for the first time in a position where he could only see one tail lamp?
:)
Ashton Crusher - 05 Nov 2007 05:55 GMT
>> It may interest you to know that at the International Symposium on
>> Automotive Lighting this past September in Darmstadt, I was talking
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>for the first time in a position where he could only see one tail lamp?
>:)

I'd be surprised if the evidence is even that good.  Interesting how
when the NHTSA has a position that supports one of danny's he thinks
they are experts.  But when it comes to headlights they are all a
bunch of dolts.  Talk about selective research.....
Brent P - 05 Nov 2007 05:59 GMT
>>> It may interest you to know that at the International Symposium on
>>> Automotive Lighting this past September in Darmstadt, I was talking
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> they are experts.  But when it comes to headlights they are all a
> bunch of dolts.  Talk about selective research.....

He's correct on this one. The shared red is asshattery and requires
additional processing time and observation to determine what the signal
is. The best case looking at other lamps on the vehicle. However in heavy
traffic that may not be possible. Also, where I live idiots who allow all
but one bulb to burn out are commong. Another common asshattery is people
who won't replace a burned out low beam so they drive around with their
high beams on.
Daniel J. Stern - 06 Nov 2007 00:29 GMT
On Nov 5, 12:59 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
wrote:

> The shared red is asshattery and requires
> additional processing time and observation to determine what the signal
> is.

Two of the most recent studies on the matter are particularly
interesting in that they suggest the common wisdom is not necessarily
correct that brake lamps are always more relevant to crash avoidance
than turn signals, and that the safety benefit of differently-coloured
brake vs. turn signals may in some cases be indirect rather than
direct. That last suggestion is particularly intriguing given the
reduced efficiency with which  the human visual system discerns red
from yellow in peripheral vision.

DS
Ashton Crusher - 06 Nov 2007 05:26 GMT
>On Nov 5, 12:59 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>DS

Gee, almost sounds like what happens in the real world isn't always
what abstract theory form some lab study might suggest.  And/or that
things may be more complex and nuanced then narrow focus lab studies
of how many milliseconds it takes to discern a red light blinking
versus an amber light blinking.
Brent P - 06 Nov 2007 05:40 GMT
> of how many milliseconds it takes to discern a red light blinking
> versus an amber light blinking.

It's how long it takes to discern a red turn signal from a red brake
lamp. If it's amber, it's a turn signal.
Ashton Crusher - 06 Nov 2007 05:24 GMT
>>>> It may interest you to know that at the International Symposium on
>>>> Automotive Lighting this past September in Darmstadt, I was talking
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>who won't replace a burned out low beam so they drive around with their
>high beams on.

I"ve never said that theoretically the amber is not better.  Only that
so far there has been no study showing that in the real world it makes
any difference.  Theoretically, a speed limiter on all cars so they
can't go faster then 60 mph will improve safety as will mandatory
wearing of helmets while driving.  Will you support those safety
improvements?
Brent P - 06 Nov 2007 05:39 GMT
>>>>> It may interest you to know that at the International Symposium on
>>>>> Automotive Lighting this past September in Darmstadt, I was talking
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> so far there has been no study showing that in the real world it makes
> any difference.

Well how about you drive in chicago for a year with the heavy traffic and
lots of idiots who can't be bothered with simple upkeep of their
vehicles. It's not a theory as far as I am concerned. I've had quite a
number of times where I had to spend extra time processing what a
particular driver was doing because the message the taillamps were
sending was either unclear or did not match actions.

>  Theoretically, a speed limiter on all cars so they
> can't go faster then 60 mph will improve safety as will mandatory
> wearing of helmets while driving.  Will you support those safety
> improvements?

Those have downsides. What is the downside of amber turn signals?
gpsman - 06 Nov 2007 13:55 GMT
On Nov 6, 12:39 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
wrote:
> In article <rttvi3hgdd95rkpkhnj27epa9nq4tvi...@4ax.com>, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> particular driver was doing because the message the taillamps were
> sending was either unclear or did not match actions.

There's more than one reason a message may be "unclear", and one of
those is a clueless recipient.

The cluelessness of your argument is evident by your inference that
color would affect some difference regarding matching actions to
signals.

> >  Theoretically, a speed limiter on all cars so they
> > can't go faster then 60 mph will improve safety as will mandatory
> > wearing of helmets while driving.  Will you support those safety
> > improvements?
>
> Those have downsides.

Duh.  Winning the lottery has downsides, and solutions without a
downside are exceedingly rare.

You often summarily dismiss solutions based on their lack of
perfection while being wholly incapable of offering any of your own
that meet that standard.

> What is the downside of amber turn signals?

Night vision degradation of nearby drivers.  You probably don't have
much opportunity to drive in the dark, but many people do.
-----

- gpsman
N8N - 06 Nov 2007 14:38 GMT
> On Nov 6, 12:39 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> color would affect some difference regarding matching actions to
> signals.

Lessee... who am I going to believe, someone who's spend most of the
last ten years (at least) obsessing about minute details of automotive
lighting and the proper application thereof, or a known Usenet troll
and idiot?

Let me think about that for a minute...

> > >  Theoretically, a speed limiter on all cars so they
> > > can't go faster then 60 mph will improve safety as will mandatory
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> perfection while being wholly incapable of offering any of your own
> that meet that standard.

The "solution" is to adopt ECE-like standards for rear light
clusters.  Done.  Problem solved.

> > What is the downside of amber turn signals?
>
> Night vision degradation of nearby drivers.  You probably don't have
> much opportunity to drive in the dark, but many people do.

I assume, of course, that you have studies showing that ECE-style
amber rear turn signals provide a significant amount of night vision
degradation that red ones do not.

nate
gpsman - 06 Nov 2007 15:01 GMT
> > On Nov 6, 12:39 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> last ten years (at least) obsessing about minute details of automotive
> lighting and the proper application thereof,

Who's that?!

> or a known Usenet troll
> and idiot?

Duh.

> Let me think about that for a minute...

Take your time, you obviously need it, not that it's likely to make
any difference.

> > > >  Theoretically, a speed limiter on all cars so they
> > > > can't go faster then 60 mph will improve safety as will mandatory
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The "solution" is to adopt ECE-like standards for rear light
> clusters.  Done.  Problem solved.

Uh, what "problem"?

> > > What is the downside of amber turn signals?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> amber rear turn signals provide a significant amount of night vision
> degradation that red ones do not.

Apparently you have failed to complete (or understand, 50/50) the
reading required to make informed comments on your subject.  Is your
googling finger broken?
-----

- gpsman
N8N - 06 Nov 2007 18:27 GMT
> > > On Nov 6, 12:39 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
> > > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> Who's that?!

DAGS for "Daniel Stern Lighting."

> > or a known Usenet troll
> > and idiot?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Take your time, you obviously need it, not that it's likely to make
> any difference.

Actually I believe the decision making process took less than a
second.

> > > > >  Theoretically, a speed limiter on all cars so they
> > > > > can't go faster then 60 mph will improve safety as will mandatory
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Uh, what "problem"?

Signal ambiguity, not recognizing turn signals or brake lights as
their correct function, "dueling reds" concealing a turn signal, etc.

> > > > What is the downside of amber turn signals?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> reading required to make informed comments on your subject.  Is your
> googling finger broken?

You're the one contradicting the experts here, it's on you to find
supporting research.  I won't be bothered, as I seriously doubt it
exists except in your mind.

nate
gpsman - 06 Nov 2007 19:49 GMT
> > > > On Nov 6, 12:39 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
> > > > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> DAGS for "Daniel Stern Lighting."

Daniel Stern has no evidence that the color of a signal light is
relative to whether it matches the driver's actions, and what is
"proper" application of automotive lighting is a matter of law, and
what is "best" or might be better are matters of opinion.

> > > The "solution" is to adopt ECE-like standards for rear light
> > > clusters.  Done.  Problem solved.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Signal ambiguity, not recognizing turn signals or brake lights as
> their correct function, "dueling reds" concealing a turn signal, etc.

Pfft, who has those problems?!  I think the circumstances where those
situations develop into "problems" would be mostly the result of bad
driving technique and/or lack of observation and/or stupidity on the
part of the observer.

I guess you're now for the nanny state that would specify amber turn
signals as the law of the land?  What about the freedoms of those who
might prefer red?

> > > > > What is the downside of amber turn signals?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> supporting research.  I won't be bothered, as I seriously doubt it
> exists except in your mind.

Sooo... you have somehow concluded that I am contradicting the
"experts" of whose research on night vision you are completely
ignorant.

I don't think that's as strong an argument as you think.
-----

- gpsman
N8N - 06 Nov 2007 20:56 GMT
> > > > > On Nov 6, 12:39 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
> > > > > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> I don't think that's as strong an argument as you think.

So you haven't asked him, nor read any of his posts on the subject.
just as I thought.

I don't know that he has addressed your "night vision" point, but he
has certainly stated in the past that he is definitively in favor of
amber rear turn signals.  Therefore I have to conclude that either the
experts on the subject do not consider it of concern, or else you are
raising ap oint that they haven't thought of yet, and you should
actually get in touch with them and raise your concerns, rather than
simply posting to Usenet.

I'm sure that if this is a real concern Daniel would be very
interested in discussing it and passing on the information to other
experts.

nate
Daniel J. Stern - 07 Nov 2007 01:25 GMT
There is no especial night vision problem caused by amber rear
directional signals, per se. The glare issue with vehicle rear lights
is related to intensity and luminance, not colour. The US standards
allow (but do not require) both red and amber rear lights (brake and
signal) to produce light at levels that can cause significant glare.
On the other hand, the ECE standards allow (but do not require) both
red and amber rear lights to produce light at levels that can be
insufficient for good conspicuity under certain conditions, e.g. sun
shining directly on the lighting device. IOW, the US standard allows
rear lamps to be too bright, while the ECE standard allows them to be
too dim. Neither standard controls for relative intensities of
adjacent devices -- that is, it's legal to have a directional signal
near the low end of the intensity spec right next to a brake lamp near
the high end of the intensity spec -- which can cause masking effects.
ECE R48 at least avoids brake lamp masking by stipulating a minimum
100mm separation between adjacent lit edges of the brake and rear fog
lamp functions. Such a provision in US regulations, applied to
separate red brake and turn signals, would go quite a long way towards
alleviating one of the biggest issues with red rear turn signals.

The existing window of overlap in intensity range for the brake lamp
and rear directional signal functions is sufficiently large, but could
be shifted and tweaked a little for optimisation. If any of the
world's numerous expert regulators were interested seriously (and not
just nominally) in a worldwide lighting standard, it would take about
half an hour to come up with an intensity range - and perhaps some
specs for min and max luminance and relative intensities of adjacent
functions - that would eliminate the too-dim and too-bright issues and
control adjacent-device masking, too, without increasing automakers'
production costs. This may yet eventually happen; it's the direction
both regulations have been moving -- very slowly -- for years.

It is interesting to remember the Australians' clever solution in the
'50s through '80s to the conflicting demands of amber rear turn
signals, cost control, and compatibility with US-based vehicle designs
that had space for two colours, not three, in the rear lamp
assemblies. They stipulated red brake, red tail, amber rear
directional, and white *or amber* reversing lamps. Many vehicles had
red brake/tail and amber turn/reverse lamps. Signal for a turn, and
the applicable rear amber lamp blinked. Shift into reverse, and both
amber rear lights lit up steadily. Signal for a turn while in reverse
(as when parallel parking), and the applicable amber rear lamp blinked
while the other one remained steadily lit. In function and electrical
hookup, it was very similar to US combination brake/turn lamps, only
it was superior in that a full (left + right) brake indication was
always given, even when signalling for a turn. The amber colour worked
fine for the reverse lamp function. Eventually Australia adopted ECE
regulations and began requiring a white reversing lamp. The amber turn/
reverse setup  would work fine in North America, where we permit
steady-burning amber or white light to give the message "Here's the
front of the car" (parking lamps, DRLs). When you're reversing, the
rear of the car becomes its effective front, so there you are. Such a
setup would also probably discourage the trend towards reversing lamps
that don't serve to light your way rearward effectively.

DS (Yes, I'd rather have red brake, amber turn, and white reverse, but
I would gladly settle for red brake and amber turn/reverse as a close
second preference).
Nate Nagel - 07 Nov 2007 01:45 GMT
> There is no especial night vision problem caused by amber rear
> directional signals, per se. The glare issue with vehicle rear lights
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> I would gladly settle for red brake and amber turn/reverse as a close
> second preference).

Thanks for the brief history - the question came up in another group I
frequent about "export" amber rear lenses to replace originally white
backup lenses; was that used in Australia only or also in other
countries?  I was aware of that implementation but not exactly where it
was used.

nate

Signature

replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 07 Nov 2007 03:09 GMT
> There is no especial night vision problem caused by amber rear
> directional signals, per se. The glare issue with vehicle rear lights
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> rear lamps to be too bright, while the ECE standard allows them to be
> too dim.

Just playing with whacky ideas: Do the regs (either US or ECE) allow for
signals to be controlled in brightness based on sensed ambient lighting
conditions?

Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Porsche 928: 0 to c in 2.125 years, 2.435 light-years per mile^3 of gas

Daniel J. Stern - 08 Nov 2007 15:39 GMT
> Just playing with whacky ideas: Do the regs (either US or ECE) allow for
> signals to be controlled in brightness based on sensed ambient lighting
> conditions?

Yes (both), but to my knowledge no automaker has yet chosen to put
these provisions into volume production.

DS
gpsman - 07 Nov 2007 15:59 GMT
> There is no especial night vision problem caused by amber rear
> directional signals, per se. The glare issue with vehicle rear lights
> is related to intensity and luminance, not colour. The US standards
> allow (but do not require) both red and amber rear lights (brake and
> signal) to produce light at levels that can cause significant glare.

So, if I understand correctly, US automotive lighting experts consider
significant glare only important during the period of glare, and apply
no consideration to the response of the eye after the glare is
removed.

That seems an unreasonably shallow "professional" perspective, from my
POV.

> IOW, the US standard allows
> rear lamps to be too bright, while the ECE standard allows them to be
> too dim.

Well, what's the ECE rationale for that standard, and which is
preferable to lighting experts?  I'd have to go with too bright
myself, but it seems as if professional experts may disagree, as they
so often do.

> Neither standard controls for relative intensities of
> adjacent devices -- that is, it's legal to have a directional signal
> near the low end of the intensity spec right next to a brake lamp near
> the high end of the intensity spec -- which can cause masking effects.

I can see where color differences might mitigate masking, but how
severe is that problem, really?  Sure, your example may be "legal"
according to standard, but how often does it actually occur?

> ECE R48 at least avoids brake lamp masking by stipulating a minimum
> 100mm separation between adjacent lit edges of the brake and rear fog
> lamp functions. Such a provision in US regulations, applied to
> separate red brake and turn signals, would go quite a long way towards
> alleviating one of the biggest issues with red rear turn signals.

I can't see where this is a "big issue" at all, unless a significant
number of vehicles are manufactured equipped with lighting devices
near the allowable limits that allow masking effects.

And I would think those masking effects would require significant
distance between the light and the observer, enough that they are far
enough apart there's  little, but mostly no risk of a collision or the
necessity of an avoidance maneuver.

Maybe I don't have a clue, lighting is definitely not an area of my
expertise.

I'm only familiar with the blinding (and night vision effects) of turn
indicators that I feel are way too bright, and those indicators have
been, without exception, not red.

I spent a great deal of my time in the military operating in the dark
and observing light discipline and have since remained aware of my
night vision recovery as a matter of habit.

DoD lighting spec's have changed a little over the years but red is
still the spec where dark adaptation is critical.
-----

- gpsman
Daniel J. Stern - 08 Nov 2007 15:38 GMT
> Maybe I don't have a clue, lighting is definitely not an area of my
> expertise.

That's possible.

DS
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 07 Nov 2007 02:21 GMT
>Daniel Stern has no evidence that the color of a signal light is
>relative to whether it matches the driver's actions, and what is
>"proper" application of automotive lighting is a matter of law, and
>what is "best" or might be better are matters of opinion.

Dumb a.s; the colors of signal lights are chosen for very specific,
scientifically proven reasons.

Your ignorance of this (big surprise there, considering your ignorance
on so much you write about) is nothing but entertainment to the rest
of us. :-)

Signature

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's homosexuallity:
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie.

: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's ability to operate a vehicle:
I must be doing something right to go 3 1/2 years without a fatal crash.
: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/msg/a376114ee8a61824?hl=en
Ashton Crusher - 10 Nov 2007 07:36 GMT
>> On Nov 6, 12:39 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>The "solution" is to adopt ECE-like standards for rear light
>clusters.  Done.  Problem solved.

No one has yet documented that there is any "problem" to solve.

>> > What is the downside of amber turn signals?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>nate
Ashton Crusher - 10 Nov 2007 07:34 GMT
>>>>>> It may interest you to know that at the International Symposium on
>>>>>> Automotive Lighting this past September in Darmstadt, I was talking
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>particular driver was doing because the message the taillamps were
>sending was either unclear or did not match actions.

If that extra processing time caused you a problem then you are not a
very good driver.  You should NEVER be in a position where your safety
depends on whether the people around you use their turn signals.  If
you are relying on other peoples turn signals for your safety needs
then you need someone to teach you defensive driving.  In a more
general sense....Every time you see rear lights go on (not the running
lights) your assumption and expectation should be that something
unplanned is about to happen in front of you and you should be ready
for anything.  You should not be making plans based on whether it's a
turn signal or a brake light because if you are driving defensively
you need to assume the worst case as your starting point.  If you are
ready for the worst case, as you should be, then it doesn't matter
whether it's a turn signal, brake signal, or both or if it's just an
intermittent short in the brake light switch and one bulb is burned
out.  Because I do drive defensively I have driven in a dozen
countries and most of the states in the US and never had a problem
even in places like Paris where many people say it's madness to even
attempt to drive.

>>  Theoretically, a speed limiter on all cars so they
>> can't go faster then 60 mph will improve safety as will mandatory
>> wearing of helmets while driving.  Will you support those safety
>> improvements?
>
>Those have downsides. What is the downside of amber turn signals?

In some rear light setups there are two bulbs on each side.  If they
do an all red configuration they can put stop filaments in all four
rear bulbs and it will send a very nice bright signal that is easily
seen.  Take the same setup and use amber and you wind up with only two
bulbs doing the turn signals and two other ones doing teh brake
signal.  So when braking the signal is weaker, and when turn-signaling
with the brakes on the turn signal may be masked by the adjacent brake
illumination.  So you could easily have that kind of downside to the
allegedly "better" amber signals... you might wind up with both the
braking AND the signaling system being less effective then if it was
just all red.
Brent P - 10 Nov 2007 09:18 GMT
> If that extra processing time caused you a problem then you are not a
> very good driver.

Look away from the glare. If the safety negative thing bothers you,
you're an idiot... just look away from the glaring headlamps... just deal
with the piss-poor implementation....

> You should NEVER be in a position where your safety
> depends on whether the people around you use their turn signals.

Who said anything about depends? I've lost strategic advantage because
I've paused to determine WTF a red lamp on another vehicle meant.

<more of the same crap snipped>  

How about cutting the hydraulic brake lines in your car and just saying
you can't drive if you can't manage with the handbrake? Sure, it's an
extreme example, but it's what you are doing. You are assuming that
because I don't like something that I can't deal with it. I can deal with
it just fine. I deal with a lot of sub optimial crap on daily basis just
fine. It doesn't mean I *WANT* to deal with sub optimal crap.

>>Those have downsides. What is the downside of amber turn signals?

> In some rear light setups there are two bulbs on each side.  If they
> do an all red configuration they can put stop filaments in all four
> rear bulbs and it will send a very nice bright signal that is easily
> seen.

If you can't deal with just two brake lamps and not know what the other
driver is doing then your a shitty driver and need to be removed from the
road or require remedial training.... Of course that's not what you meant
at all... it's just that you prefer a bigger brighter brake lamps now
isn't it?

>  Take the same setup and use amber and you wind up with only two
> bulbs doing the turn signals and two other ones doing teh brake
> signal.

Or maybe they could have just done the lamps properly from the get go.
You're really stretching....

> So when braking the signal is weaker, and when turn-signaling
> with the brakes on the turn signal may be masked by the adjacent brake
> illumination.

But it doesn't happen when their same color? Come on now....

>  So you could easily have that kind of downside to the
> allegedly "better" amber signals... you might wind up with both the
> braking AND the signaling system being less effective then if it was
> just all red.

Laughable. Maybe you just need remedial driver training.
Timothy J. Lee - 01 Oct 2007 18:41 GMT
>Thankfully toyota still mostly does it
>with yellow, which is all I would buy.

Some Toyotas now use red rear turn signals.

Perhaps car companies figure that they can save a few cents on US-market
cars and no one will notice because very few drivers in the US actually
use turn signals.

Signature

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

N8N - 01 Oct 2007 19:56 GMT
> In article <1191202139.144133.208...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> cars and no one will notice because very few drivers in the US actually
> use turn signals.

More likely it is for styling reasons; too many colors on the back of
the car make it look too "busy."  However, there is nothing stopping
manufacturers from either using clear lenses with NA bulbs behind them
(and now there are even amber bulbs that do not appear amber when not
lit,) or an amber lens with a slight red tint on the surface to make
them appear red when not lit (Mercedes and VW have done this in the
past.)

There have even been some pretty cool taillight implementations over
the past few years where mfgrs. have done all-clear lenses for the
whole cluster, and provided the red light by either a red filter
around the bulb or LEDs (the newer Toyota Prius actually does both in
the same cluster, although the red filter around the bulb for the
parking light doesn't really provide the same quality of red light as
does a red lens.)

I'm sure that cost factors into their decision not to pursue those
alternatives.

nate

(wouldn't mind having some "M3" style (clear directional segment)
taillights for my 944...)
Daniel J. Stern - 04 Nov 2007 22:01 GMT
> More likely it is for styling reasons; too many colors on the back of
> the car make it look too "busy."

With current mainstream, non-exotic technology, the rear lamps of a
car can appear to be any colour when unlit, and emit any colour light
when energised. All-red unlit appearance with red brake, amber turn,
white reverse...all-white/chrome/silver appearance with red brake,
amber turn, white reverse...all-black appearance with red brake, amber
turn, white reverse...pretty much whatever you want. There's some
evidence that colourless optics with amber or red bulbs are more prone
to interference from ambient sunlight compared to red or amber lenses
with colourless bulbs, but that's not what you asked.

DS
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 02 Oct 2007 01:09 GMT
>I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
>This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>see it many imports as well... Thankfully toyota still mostly does it
>with yellow, which is all I would buy.

People use their turn signals where you live? Wow; how do you get that
to happen?

Signature

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's homosexuallity:
the guys at the bath-house stopped laughing at my 3 inch weenie.

: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/168e8e621dd649fb?hl=en

"Speeders And Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS" brags of it's ability to operate a vehicle:
I must be doing something right to go 3 1/2 years without a fatal crash.
: http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/msg/a376114ee8a61824?hl=en
Studemania - 02 Oct 2007 20:03 GMT
On Oct 1, 5:09 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> >I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I must be doing something right to go 3 1/2 years without a fatal crash.
> :http://groups.google.com/group/misc.transport.road/msg/a376114ee8a618...

Last night, Marilyn didn't see a front left-turn signal that
was too close to the white headlanp - almost part of it.
Could be dangerous - I didn't spot what make the car was.
As co-pilot, I look out for those things.
I know all about safe driving and have been in many accidents.
She, who knows nothing about driving, is still accident free,
even though she had been driving for over sixty years.
She also can pick out routes I don't even know of.
Her first time in Scotland, she missed a sign to where we
were going and found a shorter/faster alternative!
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 02 Nov 2007 06:04 GMT
On Sep 30, 7:28 pm, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
> This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> see it many imports as well... Thankfully toyota still mostly does it
> with yellow, which is all I would buy.

HAHAHA.  All the deadly speeders and drunk drivers on the road and you
complain about the color of turn signals!!!
Imam Widdershins - 02 Nov 2007 06:59 GMT
The vile and infidel swine and bot of satan, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers
are MURDERERS," defiled the Good Name of the Prophet Muhammed and the
Good Name of Allah with this blasphemous prose in rec.autos.driving:

> On Sep 30, 7:28 pm, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> HAHAHA.  All the deadly speeders and drunk drivers on the road and you
> complain about the color of turn signals!!!

Have you ever driven a car faster than the posted speed limit?

Imam Widdershins
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 02 Nov 2007 06:05 GMT
On Sep 30, 7:28 pm, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
> This is so dumb as you can hardly tell whether someone is braking or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> see it many imports as well... Thankfully toyota still mostly does it
> with yellow, which is all I would buy.

HAHAHA.  All the deadly speeders and drunk drivers on the road and you
complain about the color of turn signals!!!
necromancer - 02 Nov 2007 06:32 GMT
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS:
> On Sep 30, 7:28 pm, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I hate it when cars use the rear brake light as the turn signal also.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> HAHAHA.  All the deadly speeders and drunk drivers on the road and you
> complain about the color of turn signals!!!

And you continue t oshow the world how dumb americans (sic) are.

Signature

Aunt Judy defends a known *drunk driver*:

"Almost all  vehicle 'accidents' are due to driver
recklessness but the Chappaquidick incident is one
instance where it may really have been no ones
fault except the idiot who built the bridge."
--"Laura Bush murdered her boyfriend," 11/10/2005
Ref: http://tinyurl.com/9jtjt
Msg ID: 1131599968.267321.318380@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com

N8N - 02 Nov 2007 20:16 GMT
On Nov 2, 1:05 am, Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS
<beta...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sep 30, 7:28 pm, oprah.cho...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> HAHAHA.  All the deadly speeders and drunk drivers on the road and you
> complain about the color of turn signals!!!

People not using their turn signals and/or turn signals not
immediately identifiable as such are a greater risk to me than your
average speeder.  And I can't remember the last time I saw another
driver and honestly thought that he might be drunk.

nate
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.