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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / December 2007

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AWD versus ESP

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lagman - 17 Dec 2007 17:46 GMT
Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
Control/Roll Mitigation, which one (if either) will do a better job at
keeping me out of the ditch here in Iowa when I hit an ice patch at
60mph?
spamTHISbrp@yahoo.com - 17 Dec 2007 18:22 GMT
> Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
> Control/Roll Mitigation, which one (if either) will do a better job at
> keeping me out of the ditch here in Iowa when I hit an ice patch at
> 60mph?

If there's a possibility of ice, and you're doing 60, the cars primary
safety system has already failed.

In any case, a comparison of technology based on meaningless terms
(automakers love confusopolies) won't be helpful.

Whose AWD? Whose ESC/TC/RM?

Art a guess, I'd say active stability systems may work better than
nothing, or may not, in that situation.

Dave
Eeyore - 18 Dec 2007 01:29 GMT
> > Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Art a guess, I'd say active stability systems may work better than
> nothing, or may not, in that situation.

At 60 on sheet ice you're going to crash whatever gadgets the car has.

Graham
Motorhead Lawyer - 18 Dec 2007 17:53 GMT
On Dec 17, 7:29 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> At 60 on sheet ice you're going to crash whatever gadgets the car has.

Haven't gotten any smarter in all the time I haven't been here, eh,
Graham?
--
C.R. Krieger
(Done it lots of times)
lagman - 18 Dec 2007 16:08 GMT
On Dec 17, 12:22 pm, spamTHIS...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Dave

As I mentioned in my reply to Garth/Graham, where I live there is
always the possibility of ice, since it stays below freezing pretty
much all winter.  People here do drive at freeway speeds during the
winter, smart people slow down or stay off the road during snow/ice
storms.

I am trying to compare Chrysler's ESC/TC/RM to, for example, the AWD
all of the Subarus have standard.

Thanks,
Dan
spamTHISbrp@yahoo.com - 18 Dec 2007 17:23 GMT
> On Dec 17, 12:22 pm, spamTHIS...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Thanks,
> Dan

AWD doesn't really do anything except let you move when there's little
traction to be had- something I make use of in my subie quite often
here near syracuse NY. AWD is just better-mannered 4-wheel drive.

The active systems (subaru has one as well, VDC, not on all models)
may give you a better shot at retaining control, but if its ice, the
car is just going to do whatever it wants to do.

Under those conditions, I'll take my outback with just the AWD over
any suv with whatever electronic system it may have, becuase after you
hit that ice and you're a bit sideways, that SUV is going over.

Dave
Eeyore - 18 Dec 2007 23:19 GMT
> As I mentioned in my reply to Garth/Graham, where I live there is
> always the possibility of ice, since it stays below freezing pretty
> much all winter.  People here do drive at freeway speeds during the
> winter, smart people slow down or stay off the road during snow/ice
> storms.

Are studded tyres popular where you are ? That changes things a lot.

Graham
Motorhead Lawyer - 19 Dec 2007 18:19 GMT
On Dec 18, 5:19 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> > As I mentioned in my reply to Garth/Graham, where I live there is
> > always the possibility of ice, since it stays below freezing pretty
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Are studded tyres popular where you are ? That changes things a lot.

I thought he mentioned somewhere that he was in Minnesota - in which
case they're illegal, just as they are in Wisconsin.
--
C.R. Krieger
Motorhead Lawyer - 17 Dec 2007 19:41 GMT
> Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
> Control/Roll Mitigation, which one (if either) will do a better job at
> keeping me out of the ditch here in Iowa when I hit an ice patch at
> 60mph?

If you're stupid enough to try braking, turning, or accelerating while
on ice at that speed, neither is likely to save you.  If you're smart
enough to do none of those things, either will 'save you'.
--
C.R. Krieger
(Who drives a 'dumb' AWD Jeep)
Eeyore - 18 Dec 2007 01:28 GMT
> Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
> Control/Roll Mitigation, which one (if either) will do a better job at
> keeping me out of the ditch here in Iowa when I hit an ice patch at
> 60mph?

Ahhhh....

Another idiot who thinks electronics can save him from his bad driving.

Graham
Garth Almgren - 18 Dec 2007 06:24 GMT
>> Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
>> equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Graham

Looks like.

The OP's choice is null anyway. As I understand the various systems,
traction control/ESP is not possible with part-time 4x4 (when in 4x4
mode) since both the front and rear axles are locked together through
the transfer case with no differentiation possible without breakage. To
have traction control/ESP, I believe you need either full-time 4x4, AWD,
or 2WD.

Signature

~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.
Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave.
******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
                      --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

lagman - 18 Dec 2007 16:01 GMT
On Dec 17, 7:28 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> > Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Graham

The temps here get below freezing in December and usually do not get
above freezing until spring.  I have seen patches of ice left over
(even on interstates) from storms that happened weeks ago.  It sounds
like you are suggesting that people in the northern states shouldn't
be driving the speed limit at all in the winter, even when the roads
are 99.99% clear of ice and snow (try going less than 60 during rush
hour in Minneapolis and I guarantee you will get run off the road).
In my opinion, an "idiot" would be someone who drives 60mph during or
shortly after an ice storm.  If the roads have been cleared and
salted, and the DOT says they are in good driving condition, I see no
reason not to go the speed limit.

I have read that govenment tests show ESC to be very effective,
especially on SUVs.  In fact, there is a proposal to have all cars
equipped with this technology by 2012.  I haven't done much research
on AWD.

There is no replacement for good winter driving skills, but I'd just
like to know which technology out there will give me more control
should the .001% chance happen and I hit an ice patch.
Eeyore - 18 Dec 2007 23:22 GMT
> It sounds like you are suggesting that people in the northern states
> shouldn't
> be driving the speed limit at all in the winter, even when the roads
> are 99.99% clear of ice and snow

So you mean you're concerned about hitting the odd unexpected patch of ice on
an otherwise clear road ?

Graham
John S. - 18 Dec 2007 21:23 GMT
> Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
> Control/Roll Mitigation, which one (if either) will do a better job at
> keeping me out of the ditch here in Iowa when I hit an ice patch at
> 60mph?

If you hit an ice patch at 60mph you will likely spin and there is no
system that will keep you out of trouble.

That said, please explain the diffrence between AWD and part time four
WD. Because they seem to describe the same system if you have
electronically controlled dynamic stability control then you stand a
bit of a better chance of keeping the wheels straight under slower
driving.  But if you hit ice on all four wheels at 60mph there is not
a system around that will help.  You are clearly driving way too fast
for conditions.
Nate Nagel - 18 Dec 2007 21:26 GMT
>>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
>>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> a system around that will help.  You are clearly driving way too fast
> for conditions.

AWD generally implies full time all wheel drive which will include
either a center differential or a viscous coupling - that is, some sort
of mechanism to allow for slight differences in speed between the front
and rear drive axles.  4WD generally implies a selectable connection
between the transfer case (which is connected to the output shaft of the
transmission) and the front drive axle, usually *without* a differential
or viscous coupling, making it suitable for use only in low traction
conditions.  If 4WD is used on a dry, grippy road surface, it can result
in "wind-up" and often expensive parts breakage.

For obvious reasons, it is far more difficult to implement any kind of
traction/stability control system on a 4WD system however that is not to
say that it is 100% impossible.

ISTR that my grandfather had a '76 Chevy pickup truck with an AWD system
with a lockable center diff, but the transfer case lever appeared
identical to a traditional 4WD system.  that was a rather odd system and
I believe it wasn't used for that many years due to the additional drag
and subsequent gas mileage penalty.

nate

Signature

replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel - 18 Dec 2007 21:40 GMT
>>> Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
>>> equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> nate

After a quick google, it appears that it must have been equipped with a
New Process NP203 transfer case.

nate

Signature

replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Garth Almgren - 18 Dec 2007 21:43 GMT
> >>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> >>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> nate

There is AWD, there is part-time 4WD, and there is full-time 4WD, all
different beasts.

Your grandpa's truck sounds like he could select between full-time
4WD, and part-time 4WD (locked).

First hit I found in Google does a decent job of explaining the
differences, complete with drawings that could have been drawn by an 8
year old:
AWD: http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html
Part-time 4WD: http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/abc1.html
Full-time 4WD: http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/abc5.html

--
~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.
Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave.
******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
                                          --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
spamTHISbrp@yahoo.com - 18 Dec 2007 22:57 GMT
> > >>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > >>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> ******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
>                                            --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

The system on subaru automatics is pretty simple- front wheels are
connected to the trans, rear wheels connect to the trans via a
hydraulic-controlled multi-plate clutch.

Clutch is engaged fully, you have four wheel drive with no slip
between the front and the rear drivelines. In practice the clutch
always gets a little slip action to prevent full binding (a solenoid
is pulsed, relieving fluid pressure, allowing a little 'blip' of
slip). Some off-roaders cut into the solenoid circuit to disable all
slipping.

Clutch is fully disengaged, you have front wheel drive.

When in 1st, reverse, at full-throttle, or whenever front wheelspin
(relative to back) is recognized, the clutch is maximally engaged.

I had a 4WD ranger pickup before the subaru, and on snow the subaru
AWD is as capable (but better mannered) than 4WD on the ranger.

A lack of low-range is universally missed by the subie crowd that
actually ventures off-road, or into poor conditions.
But having an automatic does help offset that problem- converter stall
speed is up around 2000 RPM so you can get plenty of torque to the
wheels at low rolling speeds.

Dave
John S. - 19 Dec 2007 02:08 GMT
> >>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> >>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I know what 4wd is.  The OP referred to a part time 4wd which I've
never heard of before.
N8N - 19 Dec 2007 18:21 GMT
> > >>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > >>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> I know what 4wd is.  The OP referred to a part time 4wd which I've
> never heard of before.

Part time 4WD is the traditional method, with a transfer case and
locking hubs and no center diff or VC.

nate
John S. - 25 Dec 2007 16:29 GMT
> > > >>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > > >>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm not aware of any car made with full time AWD.  I don't get the
point of calling it part time.
John S. - 25 Dec 2007 16:31 GMT
> > > >>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > > >>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm not aware of any car made with full time 4wd so the point of
calling it part time is lost on me.
MLOM - 26 Dec 2007 03:49 GMT
> > > > >>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > > > >>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Standard procedure on Subaru models.
John S. - 27 Dec 2007 06:25 GMT
> > > > > >>Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > > > > >>equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

That is not full time power to all wheels.  AWD is different from 4WD
in that power distribution is managed.
Eeyore - 18 Dec 2007 23:25 GMT
> > Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> > equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If you hit an ice patch at 60mph you will likely spin and there is no
> system that will keep you out of trouble.

Surely if you hit ice you'll simply keep going in the same direction as when
you entered it and there's no change of changing that, physics being what it
is, so just hope it's not on a corner.

I imagime most spins would be caused by unwise driver action such as hitting
the brakes or trying to steer on ice.

Graham
Alexander Rogge - 20 Dec 2007 02:46 GMT
> Between a SUV equipped with All Wheel Drive, versus the same SUV
> equipped with part time 4WD, Electronic Stability Control/Traction
> Control/Roll Mitigation, which one (if either) will do a better job at
> keeping me out of the ditch here in Iowa when I hit an ice patch at
> 60mph?

There is nothing that you can buy for your SUV to maintain velocity on
ice.  There are products that enable some cars to be driven safely at
high speeds on ice, but they are not anything that you would consider to
be a reasonable purchase, nor should they be used outside of some
specific locations.

The most important system for driving on ice is the experienced driver.
 I can drive on ice, and I can do spin-recovery on ice, but that's on
an open field where I can go more than 2 km in any direction before
having to worry about hitting anything.  The car may spin more than 20
times before its velocity can be restored.  On an autobahn or any
ordinary street, I drive more-cautiously if there is a possibility of ice.

A car on flat ice will continue at approximately the same velocity
unless the driver or another force does something to change it.  Don't
brake, accelerate, or steer once traction is lost.  If I leave the
roadway, it is better to slide off the roadway and possibly hit an
object instead of spinning out of control, possibly going across other
lanes, and then hitting an object with a higher velocity.

The tyres are the most important factor in maintaining traction on any
surface.
 
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