Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / January 2008
Video camera question
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necromancer - 28 Dec 2007 01:10 GMT Just curious (i.e. looking for suggestions/recommendations) as to what video cameras some of you who do the roadgeek videos use. I'm finally going to get off my cheap tail and get a camera and/or tripod, but after surfing some web sites and looking in a store or two, I feel overwhelmed by the choices out there.
Any camera that I would be interested in must beable to record unattended so that I can just mash the record button before putting the car in gear and driving - or do all video cameras come with this feature?
Any suggestions for a total newbie to video recording?
 Signature necromancer
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My Land of Misery - 28 Dec 2007 01:25 GMT On Dec 27, 7:10 pm, necromancer
> Just curious (i.e. looking for suggestions/recommendations) as to what > video cameras some of you who do the roadgeek videos use. I'm finally [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Deadly Speeder. And PROUD of it, Man!!! My recommendation: get one with an internal hard drive and a fold-out display window (the window is needed to check the camera aim).
I use a JVC GZ-MG130U camera. IIRC it ran about 3 C-notes. It has a 30GB internal hard drive good for 7 to 37 hours of video depending on the video settings. It included a cord for connection to USB and a battery charger.
Choice of tripod will depend on the dashboard setup in the vehicle, as you will not want to have the camera any further a reach than the radio or HVAC controls. I use a flexible tripod with my cam, which allows for stable placement via two points on the dash and the third on the handle above the glovebox, while being easily removable. It's a FlexPod Pro which ran about $30.
Good luck with the future cam choice.
Scott in SoCal - 28 Dec 2007 03:41 GMT >My recommendation: get one with an internal hard drive and a fold-out >display window (the window is needed to check the camera aim). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the video settings. It included a cord for connection to USB and a >battery charger. And just how do you archive your material when the HD fills up?
gpsman - 28 Dec 2007 03:49 GMT > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:25:17 -0800 (PST), My Land of Misery > > <gr...@netzero.net> wrote: > >My recommendation: get one with an internal hard drive
> >It included a cord for connection to USB and a > >battery charger. > > And just how do you archive your material when the HD fills up? <spit take> -----
- gpsman
necromancer - 28 Dec 2007 03:49 GMT Scott in SoCal:
> >My recommendation: get one with an internal hard drive and a fold-out > >display window (the window is needed to check the camera aim). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And just how do you archive your material when the HD fills up? http://tinyurl.com/2oytwq ;)
Camera specifications: http://tinyurl.com/yre2tk
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Scott in SoCal - 28 Dec 2007 18:13 GMT > Scott in SoCal: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >http://tinyurl.com/2oytwq ;) USB is the conduit, but what do you store the data onto? DVD-Rs?
Also, what format is the data stored in? MPEG2? That's lossy compression...
My recommendation to the OP is a decent MiniDV camcorder. Get a 3-CCD model if you can swing it. Most are quite small and have the flip-out LCD monitor window as well as a firewire port, which is more standard than USB for capturing/transferring digital video. With firewire, you can transfer the video and audio data directly within your editing program (e.g. Windows Movie Maker); a USB transfer might involve a separate copy step outside the app.
MiniDV's compression ratio is lower than MPEG2, but the compression algorithm it uses is lossless. The tapes are also their own archival medium - no need to transfer the captured data out and burn DVD-Rs, nor will you be tempted to blow off that step, and come to regret it later. Plus, your archives will be of the highest possible quality. Someday when you want to transfer your roadgeek video raw footage archives to some future High Definition format, you may appreciate the extra image quality that MiniDV will retain.
FWIW, HTH!
My Land of Misery - 28 Dec 2007 23:29 GMT > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:49:00 -0500, necromancer > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > - Show quoted text - My cam has the capability of backup to DVD or computer. I take the files into Windoze Movie Maker to make them YouTube-ready.
Larry Bud - 29 Dec 2007 00:13 GMT > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:49:00 -0500, necromancer > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Also, what format is the data stored in? MPEG2? That's lossy > compression... All compression methods used to deliver consumer video is lossy, even mpeg4. So what? You aren't going to recode over and over (which is what lossy means.. that the video keeps recompressing).
How much do you really need to archive if you're driving around? Usually the beat down only takes 10 or 20 seconds -;)
MLOM - 29 Dec 2007 00:35 GMT > > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:49:00 -0500, necromancer > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Tazer only takes about 5 sec. ;)
EAST COAST HIVE MIND - 29 Dec 2007 02:35 GMT > Tazer only takes about 5 sec. ;) Don't Tase Me Bro!
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Scott in SoCal - 29 Dec 2007 16:45 GMT >All compression methods used to deliver consumer video is lossy, even >mpeg4. The DV25 codec's compression is *very* light compared to MPEG et. al.
>So what? You aren't going to recode over and over (which is >what lossy means.. that the video keeps recompressing). You're referring to generational loss. I'm talking about the loss of information that takes place when you compress the raw video stream inside the camcorder. Compression makes the video data smaller by throwing away some of the information; presumably the information that is thrown away is information you won't notice anyway, but in general the lighter the compression the less that is being thrown away. That's why DV25 is preferable to MPEG or DIVX for archival purposes.
As an analogy, think of old-fashioned film photography: imagine it's 1970, and you want to shoot some home movies. The 8mm camera is cheaper, but the images taken by a 16mm camera will contain more image information. It might look the same when you project it on the wall of your den, but when 2008 rolls around and you want to transfer your old home movies to 1080p HD-DVD, you'll be VERY glad you went with the 16mm camera.
>How much do you really need to archive if you're driving around? I'm ASSuming that anyone who invests hundreds of dollars in a camcorder will use it for more than just roadgeek videos. :)
EAST COAST HIVE MIND - 29 Dec 2007 17:25 GMT > I'm ASSuming that anyone who invests hundreds of dollars in a > camcorder will use it for more than just roadgeek videos. :) No, not really. Unless you wanna see snaps of my goddam cats. Meow.
 Signature Comrade Mister Otto the Duke of Yamamoto http://mryamamoto.50megs.com 'Giving Viatology a bad name since 1898!'
Larry Bud - 31 Dec 2007 13:29 GMT > >All compression methods used to deliver consumer video is lossy, even > >mpeg4. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > information that takes place when you compress the raw video stream > inside the camcorder. Then don't use "lossy" when describing this. Lossy compression refers to a compression method, that, when a video (or image) is compressed over and over (using the same CODEC), the quality goes down. For example, JPG is a lossy compression method, GIF is not.
> Compression makes the video data smaller by > throwing away some of the information; presumably the information that > is thrown away is information you won't notice anyway, but in general > the lighter the compression the less that is being thrown away. That's > why DV25 is preferable to MPEG or DIVX for archival purposes. Since MPEG is good enough for HDTV, I would say it's at least good enough for Necromancer's captures of his brushes with the law.
Scott in SoCal - 31 Dec 2007 17:25 GMT >> >All compression methods used to deliver consumer video is lossy, even >> >mpeg4. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Then don't use "lossy" when describing this. Video information *is* lost, so "lossy" is an accurate term.
>Lossy compression refers >to a compression method, that, when a video (or image) is compressed >over and over (using the same CODEC), the quality goes down. Is that an operational-definition? :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossy_data_compression
>A lossy compression method is one where compressing data and then >decompressing it retrieves data that may well be different from the original, >but is close enough to be useful in some way.
>For example, JPG is a lossy compression method, GIF is not. You just contradicted your own definition. JPG's compression loses information the very first time you compress the image data - no need to "compress over and over using the same CODEC."
>Since MPEG is good enough for HDTV, I would say it's at least good >enough for Necromancer's captures of his brushes with the law. All MPEG compressors are not created equal. Some are high-quality, multi-pass, variable bit rate compressors that do an excellent job. However, to record a live video stream, you're limited to whatever compression you can perform in real time with only a single pass, which may not be as good. Such an MPEG compressor may end up throwing away more data than DV25 does.
necromancer - 02 Jan 2008 21:16 GMT Larry Bud:
> Since MPEG is good enough for HDTV, I would say it's at least good > enough for Necromancer's captures Since when am I Calrog?
> of his brushes with the law. I rather suspect that I'll get a vid or two of the GSP and/or GCPD in action, but I won't be seeking them out.
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Ashton Crusher - 29 Dec 2007 16:56 GMT >> Scott in SoCal: >>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >FWIW, HTH! Interesting info. I take movies with my Digital Camera which stores them on a memory card as MPEG-4. I recently compared it to a dedicated VideoCam of the internal HD variety that stored MOD files. My little Casio Z-750 had as good a picture and much much better sound then the CamCorder. (Outdoor movies of people firing automatic weapons) The camcorder was much better at doing "zoom" of course. I was very disappointed in the Camcorder quality.
EAST COAST HIVE MIND JR. - 28 Dec 2007 18:47 GMT > On Dec 27, 7:10 pm, necromancer > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Good luck with the future cam choice. My dad has that type of camera!
richard - 28 Dec 2007 04:41 GMT >Just curious (i.e. looking for suggestions/recommendations) as to what >video cameras some of you who do the roadgeek videos use. I'm finally [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Any suggestions for a total newbie to video recording? On one road trip years ago, I put my RCA VHC camera on the dashboard of the pickup right in front of me. Pressed the record button and let it do it's thing.
Now, you could do it with a dvd recording camera or an on dash lens and a seperate recorder.
Even some digital still cameras will do videos.
Ashton Crusher - 29 Dec 2007 16:58 GMT >>Just curious (i.e. looking for suggestions/recommendations) as to what >>video cameras some of you who do the roadgeek videos use. I'm finally [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >On one road trip years ago, I put my RCA VHC camera on the dashboard >of the pickup right in front of me. Didn't the guy in that pickup wonder what you were doing?
Pressed the record button and let
>it do it's thing. > >Now, you could do it with a dvd recording camera or an on dash lens >and a seperate recorder. > >Even some digital still cameras will do videos. Cameron Kaiser - 29 Dec 2007 23:47 GMT >>On one road trip years ago, I put my RCA VHC camera on the dashboard >>of the pickup right in front of me.
>Didn't the guy in that pickup wonder what you were doing? Lol. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who did a double take on that sentence ;)
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Bobby H - 28 Dec 2007 06:04 GMT > Any suggestions for a total newbie to video recording? It depends on what you are wanting to achieve in image quality. Being a professional graphic artist and experienced professional videographer I'll offer a view hardware features you may want to look for in a camera.
1. 3 chip 3CCD imaging chipset. If you want really good color quality absolutely NOTHING will ever beat a 3 chip 3-CCD video camera. ALL professional level video cameras have 3CCD imaging arrays. Absolutely none use a single imaging chip for capturing video. There is a number of 3CCD video cameras you can buy for under $1000, with Panasonic being one of the most prominent vendors.
2. Tape, DVD or hard disc. If you have a computer and access to any video editing software, by all means go with MiniDV format! I absolutely implore you to do this. I have examined plenty of hard disc-based video cameras and others that record to rewritable DVD media. They all suck it pretty badly. The main problem is that they all use very crude, single pass, severe video compression systems. You end up with video that will only look good in a tiny video window on a web page. Blow it up to a NTSC TV set and it will look like a.s. Stick with the MiniDV tape systems. They're still better. MiniDV records 3.7 million bits per second. You can stream that into just about any modern computer pretty easily and edit it pretty easily. You're going to have problems with the more severely compressed video from optical disc based and hard disc based video cameras.
3. Good Optical Image Stabilization. If you're going to try to shoot video from the dash of a moving vehicle you really need a camera with optical image stabilization. "EIS" electronic image stabilization sucks a.s. It's just jitter-ville. The optical hardware-based stuff will deliver much smoother video clips.
4. The bigger the imaging chip, the better quality the video. Lots of consumer level video cameras have very puny sized CCD chips for capturing video imagery. We're talking imaging chips of only 1/8" or 1/6" in size. The "pro-sumer" enthusiast category deals with $2000 to $5000 cameras boasting 1/3" CCD arrays. High end professional video cameras have 2/3" diameter CCDs or even ones bigger than 1". In general, the larger the CCD is the better you will be at capturing brilliant color, deep contrast and sharp detail.
Outside of those properties you may want to look into the optical zoom strength of the camera's lens. Features like native 16:9 recording might seem pretty cool, but aren't a huge requirement for web-based stuff.
I've purposefully kept my comments somewhat brand-agnostic to keep the specific features in the greater focus of importance.
Scott in SoCal - 28 Dec 2007 18:24 GMT >I've purposefully kept my comments somewhat brand-agnostic to keep the >specific features in the greater focus of importance. Well said, Bobby. With regard to item #3 in your list, I would only add that Digital image stabilization (or "EIS") usually results in a LOSS of effective resolution, as the firmware inside the camcorder does a digital "pan and scan" and scaling of the image coming out of the CCD before it is recorded. Those pixels are lost forever. With OIS you generally get the full resolution that the CCD is capable of giving you, but it still smoothes out the high-frequency jitters from the recorded image.
Froggie - 02 Jan 2008 21:23 GMT > > Any suggestions for a total newbie to video recording? > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > I've purposefully kept my comments somewhat brand-agnostic to keep the > specific features in the greater focus of importance. Replying a bit late here....but I forwarded Bobby's post to my "other half", who works in TV production and photography and has a Master's in the field. Below are her comments (nevermind that she disapproves of videotaping while driving):
--------------------------------
What they're saying is true...
Don't know what else to tell you...
Other than I think that driving with a camera is stupid....
...even if it is on a tripod....
And that I think EIS is a lazy mans feature...still cameras...ok...but if you want to shoot video off the tripod, you are bound to get wiggle...and to get rid of it you just need to use your head. Having the camera stabilize for you is sheer laziness. God...if I could have had EIS some days with the 30+ pounders I was carrying....
Froggie
JimKG@aol.com - 03 Jan 2008 00:59 GMT > > Any suggestions for a total newbie to video recording? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > going to have problems with the more severely compressed video from > optical disc based and hard disc based video cameras. I agree 100%, the quality you get from a MiniDV when viewing on a TV set is far better than that an Hard Drive camera (I've not tried a camera that records to DVD yet) plus it's easier to convert to the computer.
> 3. Good Optical Image Stabilization. > If you're going to try to shoot video from the dash of a moving vehicle > you really need a camera with optical image stabilization. "EIS" > electronic image stabilization sucks a.s. It's just jitter-ville. The > optical hardware-based stuff will deliver much smoother video clips. My camera does not have an Image Stabilization feature but I've never had any issues, a solid tripod will do the trick.
Many MiniDV cameras come with a remote control so you can operate the camera while driving w/o putting yourself at risk, the only drawback to MiniDV is the 60 Minute format, gotta change tapes every hour, BUT the overall quality & ease of use makes it well worth while.
Jim K. Georges
Larry Bud - 29 Dec 2007 00:17 GMT > Any camera that I would be interested in must beable to record > unattended so that I can just mash the record button before putting the > car in gear and driving - or do all video cameras come with this > feature? Are all you going to do is use it for recording yourself driving around? Do you have a laptop?
If yes to both, you might want to just get a really tiny security camera with a firewire output. Then you can just record directly to your laptop, and hook it up semi-permanently to your vehicle.
If you want to use it for other stuff, you'll need to tell us for what, and then I can give suggestions.
necromancer - 29 Dec 2007 05:43 GMT Larry Bud:
> > Any camera that I would be interested in must beable to record > > unattended so that I can just mash the record button before putting the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If you want to use it for other stuff, you'll need to tell us for > what, and then I can give suggestions. I will be using it for other purposes, such as at family gatherings and general asshattery wih it around the house and in the local area (though out of the car in those instances). After reading some of the replies, I am definitely leaning toward a miniDV recorder, just don't know which brand/model yet. I've noted many nice ones in the US$200 to US$300 range. Just have to decide on one.
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Scott in SoCal - 29 Dec 2007 17:46 GMT >I will be using it for other purposes, such as at family gatherings and >general asshattery wih it around the house and in the local area (though >out of the car in those instances). After reading some of the replies, I >am definitely leaning toward a miniDV recorder, just don't know which >brand/model yet. I've noted many nice ones in the US$200 to US$300 >range. Just have to decide on one. Panasonic makes some really good ones.
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/panasonic-pv-gs320/4505-6500_7-323303 17.html
necromancer - 30 Dec 2007 22:21 GMT Scott in SoCal:
> >I will be using it for other purposes, such as at family gatherings and > >general asshattery wih it around the house and in the local area (though [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/panasonic-pv-gs320/4505-6500_7-323303 17.html I decided on the Panasonic pv-gs80 (US$238.00 shipping included) from amazon.com. Once I play around a bit with it and get used to using the camera and working the video editing, the idiot drivers around here had better watch out or they might get caught on tape.
BTW, The camera has a IEEE 1394 output and both my laptop and desktop have inputs for it... ;)
Once I get the camera, I'll have to decide how to set it up in the car for recording. I'm pondering everything from sandwiching it between the headrest and seatback on the passenger side to getting either a tri-pod (probablly what I'll do since the tri-pod can serve other uses) or maybe even a windshield mount if I can find one.
Soooooo, hopefully later in January or early February, "necromancer films," will have something to present.....
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Scott in SoCal - 31 Dec 2007 00:59 GMT >I decided on the Panasonic pv-gs80 (US$238.00 shipping included) from >amazon.com. Once I play around a bit with it and get used to using the >camera and working the video editing, the idiot drivers around here had >better watch out or they might get caught on tape.
:) Does the GS80 come with the same wired remote-control wand that the GS500 does? I have found the remote to be indispensible when shooting videos while driving - I leave the wand in my cupholder; when I want to start or stop the camcorder, I simply reach over and hit the button. It's less distracting than shifting the manual transmission.
:)
>BTW, The camera has a IEEE 1394 output and both my laptop and desktop >have inputs for it... ;) Congratualtions! You've taken your first step into a larger world. :)
>Once I get the camera, I'll have to decide how to set it up in the car >for recording. I'm pondering everything from sandwiching it between the >headrest and seatback on the passenger side to getting either a tri-pod >(probablly what I'll do since the tri-pod can serve other uses) or maybe >even a windshield mount if I can find one. http://www.chasecam.com/mounts/suction.htm
(I have the SM31 model). I stick it onto the lower right corner of my windshield where it can see out in front but doesn't block my view. Works great, I highly recommend it.
>Soooooo, hopefully later in January or early February, "necromancer >films," will have something to present..... I'm looking forward to the premiere. :)
Scott in SoCal - 29 Dec 2007 16:54 GMT >> Any camera that I would be interested in must beable to record >> unattended so that I can just mash the record button before putting the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >camera with a firewire output. Then you can just record directly to >your laptop, and hook it up semi-permanently to your vehicle. Or get a $79 Logitech QuickCam and mount it to your dashboard with masking tape. :)
Here's an example of what that looks like:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8065257290141620531
EAST COAST HIVE MIND - 29 Dec 2007 17:23 GMT >>> Any camera that I would be interested in must beable to record >>> unattended so that I can just mash the record button before putting the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8065257290141620531 I bought one of those and it had some srs lighting issues: I stepped up to a better model, and that problem improved; http://tinyurl.com/2lrjyn(that's the camera) The clip is better, too, and you can shoot with the camera in any position and rotate the output so it's right-side up. The big problem I have w/that is the autofocus, which is meh-you can't tell the camera to fix focus, and the results leave something to be desired.
I has an Aiptek cheapcam: that uses SD cards. Fixed focusing eliminates any worries that the autofocus will catch my windscreen, and the .asf files open directly in Kino(Linux DV editing programme). The drawback to that is I can't step down the frame rate. I'm stuck at 29 and change.
I also use my Samsung cameras, which do .avi files out of the bag; and record larger size vids at slow frame rates by default. I can speed up the frame rate with Avidemux and Kdenlive; save out to DV via Kdenlive and do the fancy editing in Kino. My 8 makapickle Samsung also takes the SDHD cards which go up to 8 GB, thus far, and will allow me mad amounts of recording time.
What I use depends on what I want; and I'm also looking at the editing phase of things, so that I can fit the video time to the music I use.
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Ashton Crusher - 29 Dec 2007 16:50 GMT >Just curious (i.e. looking for suggestions/recommendations) as to what >video cameras some of you who do the roadgeek videos use. I'm finally [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Any suggestions for a total newbie to video recording? If you want to stay legal you will need to become a member of SAG, Society of Anonymous Goofballs, as well as get a permit from the local police. You will also need to get signed releases from all the people in all the cars that you video. And it is illegal to record the sound, you can only record the video. All video that remains unedited for more then 30 days must either be bulk erased (hard on your hard drive) or submitted to the local Grand Jury Foreman. Enjoy your new hobby.
Scott in SoCal - 29 Dec 2007 17:48 GMT >If you want to stay legal you will need to become a member of SAG, >Society of Anonymous Goofballs, as well as get a permit from the local [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >for more then 30 days must either be bulk erased (hard on your hard >drive) or submitted to the local Grand Jury Foreman. What is the punishment for non-compliance?
Cameron Kaiser - 29 Dec 2007 23:51 GMT >>If you want to stay legal you will need to become a member of SAG, >>Society of Anonymous Goofballs, as well as get a permit from the local [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>for more then 30 days must either be bulk erased (hard on your hard >>drive) or submitted to the local Grand Jury Foreman.
>What is the punishment for non-compliance? A stern lecture from Alec Baldwin.
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Refinish King - 30 Dec 2007 02:17 GMT If I may ask:
I just saw this part of the thread, and was wondering where the person wants to video and record people.
In a public or semi-public area, there is no presumption of privacy.
That's how the police can record you with the car cams, and news paparazzi scum can take pictures and record celebrities chatter.
RK
PS This is not legal advice, but how I read and interpret the law.
>>>If you want to stay legal you will need to become a member of SAG, >>>Society of Anonymous Goofballs, as well as get a permit from the local [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ** > ** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ ** necromancer - 30 Dec 2007 05:21 GMT Refinish King:
> I just saw this part of the thread, and was wondering where the person wants > to video and record people. My primary intention is to mount the camera on a tripod and aim the camera to be looking out the windshield and/or the passenger window of my car to record some of the sidhts and roadways where I live and travel to. IF you go to youyube and look up, "freewayjim," those types of videos are what I am wanting to do. Recording family events and around town/beaches videos will be a secondary use for the camera.
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Refinish King - 30 Dec 2007 11:29 GMT The highway and the beach are both public places:
There is no supposition of privacy in either place. Unless you reach into the car and record the voices. Video is fair game anywhere.
RK
> Refinish King: >> I just saw this part of the thread, and was wondering where the person [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > videos are what I am wanting to do. Recording family events and around > town/beaches videos will be a secondary use for the camera. Scott in SoCal - 30 Dec 2007 18:16 GMT >My primary intention is to mount the camera on a tripod and aim the >camera to be looking out the windshield and/or the passenger window of >my car to record some of the sidhts and roadways where I live and travel >to. IF you go to youyube and look up, "freewayjim," those types of >videos are what I am wanting to do. Recording family events and around >town/beaches videos will be a secondary use for the camera. At least the man has his priorities straight. :)
JimKG@aol.com - 03 Jan 2008 01:09 GMT > Refinish King: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > videos are what I am wanting to do. Recording family events and around > town/beaches videos will be a secondary use for the camera. I'm flattered thank you :)
Whatever you do be sure to put a flat black blanket across your dash ( as smooth and tight as possible), it will eliminate all the galre and reflections you get from the vents and texture of your dashboard and give you richer overall picture.
You can get a plain fleece black blanket at Wal-Mart for like $5-6, do not use anything with texture like a bath towel as you'll see it in the windhield.
Good luck with your videos, let us know what kind of gear you end up getting.
Jim K. Georges (freewayjim)
Ashton Crusher - 30 Dec 2007 07:25 GMT >>If you want to stay legal you will need to become a member of SAG, >>Society of Anonymous Goofballs, as well as get a permit from the local [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >What is the punishment for non-compliance? Michael Jackson invites you to Neverland.
necromancer - 30 Dec 2007 22:54 GMT Ashton Crusher:
> >>If you want to stay legal you will need to become a member of SAG, > >>Society of Anonymous Goofballs, as well as get a permit from the local [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Michael Jackson invites you to Neverland. Wouldn't that violate the 8th Ammendment?
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