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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / December 2007DL's with RFID to be used for tracking/Federal ID
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2133.asp <...> Electronic monitoring of motorists will soon expand dramatically as states including Arizona, Michigan, Vermont and Washington begin to use radio frequency identification (RFID) chips in drivers' licenses. These electronic chips broadcast the identity of any card holder to any chip-reading sensor within a minimum of thirty feet. The US Department of Homeland Security is promoting the tracking projects as part of its Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative. "Multiple cards can be read at a distance and simultaneously with vicinity RFID technology, allowing an entire car full of people to be processed at once," a DHS fact sheet on the Passport Card technology explained. <...> > http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2133.asp > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > processed at once," a DHS fact sheet on the Passport Card technology > explained. LOL...They don't work that well - particularly when inside a car. If the car was stopped, and they placed the scanner inside the car, then they might be able to process a car full of people at once -assuming everyone even had a drivers license. I worked on RFID tags a few years back. Our dream was to be able to push a shopping cart full of stuff through a lane and have the reader pick up all the items. We never got there, mostly because metal shopping carts really screwed up the signals. I know things have improved greatly in the last 5 years, BUT....I wouldn't worry to much about the government successfully using these things until you see Wal*Mart successfully using them. As it is, I suppose a cop with a reader could process all the driver licenses in a stopped car without making people pull them out of their wallets. However, if you are worried about this, just microwave your DL.... It will be great when everything has an RFID tag - the cops will be able to scan you, your car, and all your groceries while you fly by at 90 mph. Ed >> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2133.asp >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >LOL...They don't work that well - particularly when inside a car. And PARTICULARLY when they are kept inside my foil-lined wallet. :) >I worked on RFID tags a few years back. Our dream was to be >able to push a shopping cart full of stuff through a lane and have the >reader pick up all the items. We never got there, mostly because metal >shopping carts really screwed up the signals. Interesting... What about plastic shopping carts? >It will be great when everything has an RFID tag - the cops will be able to >scan you, your car, and all your groceries while you fly by at 90 mph. Yah. Grrrrreeeeeeaaaaaat... >>LOL...They don't work that well - particularly when inside a car. > >And PARTICULARLY when they are kept inside my foil-lined wallet. :) http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/8cdd/ RFID Blocking Wallet "More comfortable than aluminum foil in your pants. " >>I worked on RFID tags a few years back. Our dream was to be >>able to push a shopping cart full of stuff through a lane and have the >>reader pick up all the items. We never got there, mostly because metal >>shopping carts really screwed up the signals. > >Interesting... What about plastic shopping carts? Inquiring minds want to know. >>It will be great when everything has an RFID tag - the cops will be able to >>scan you, your car, and all your groceries while you fly by at 90 mph. > >Yah. Grrrrreeeeeeaaaaaat... I know I'll be happy when my Cap'n Crunch gets a speeding ticket.  SignatureHalf drunk is a waste of money. >>> http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2133.asp >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Interesting... What about plastic shopping carts? You still have the problem of multiple signals, metal objects in the cart, foil lined carton's etc. With passive tags, there are just to many variables. It is possible the problems will eventually be overcome, but not quite yet. Another problem is the cost of the tags. It doesn't make much sense to put a $0.10 tag on a pack of gum - so you still have to handle those as an exception. Last time I knew, passive tags were still over $0.25. People were working on techniques to "print" tags sort of like bar codes. If they can do that, then there is a chance that you will at least get a situation where you load the items onto a belt and they are scanned without handling. The dream of pushing the cart through the scanner is a little further off (in my opinion). Ed >>It will be great when everything has an RFID tag - the cops will be able >>to >>scan you, your car, and all your groceries while you fly by at 90 mph. > > Yah. Grrrrreeeeeeaaaaaat... >> "Multiple cards can be read at a distance and simultaneously with >> vicinity RFID technology, allowing an entire car full of people to be >> processed at once," a DHS fact sheet on the Passport Card technology >> explained. [...] >greatly in the last 5 years, BUT....I wouldn't worry to much about the >government successfully using these things until you see Wal*Mart >successfully using them. As it is, I suppose a cop with a reader could >process all the driver licenses in a stopped car without making people pull >them out of their wallets. However, if you are worried about this, just >microwave your DL.... It's true that the commercial readers don't work all that well. That's because they have two constraints greatly limiting their range 1) FCC limits on power (which particularly hurts passive RFID) 2) Cost Relax those two, and you can get serious increases in range. Picking out the names and nationalities of a group of passport-carrying people from a nearby roof or building would be child's play. And IMO is likely a major reason the government wants RFID passports. RFID driver's licenses are a natural extension to make domestic surveillance easier. SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. >>> "Multiple cards can be read at a distance and simultaneously with >>> vicinity RFID technology, allowing an entire car full of people to be [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > likely a major reason the government wants RFID passports. RFID driver's > licenses are a natural extension to make domestic surveillance easier. You probably worry about the Nat Sec Acy reading your license plate from space on a real time basis.... I doubt that we will ever get into the situation where you can read a group of rfid equipped passports from a nearby roof - unless by nearby you mean - the same roof. The big advantage of RFID tags in DLs and passports is the ability to encode lots of information and to update that information anytime the tag is read. It would be child's play to place readers in strategic locations that people pass through and record tag information. But I think the idea of reading a bunch of tags from remote locations is not going to happen anytime soon. Even with powered tags, the transmit power is way to low to reliably communicate across hundreds of yards. Of course I am sure the government won't mind you thinking they can read tags from miles away (or read license plates from space in real time). Ed > The big advantage of RFID tags in DLs and passports is the ability to encode > lots of information and to update that information anytime the tag is read. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Even with powered tags, the transmit power is way to low to reliably > communicate across hundreds of yards. So they put the readers in the overpasses or just put some light weight arches over the roads. Problem solved. Maybe it would have difficulty with buses, but with most vehicles it won't be more than four people. Range would not be more than 15 feet. > Of course I am sure the government won't mind you thinking they can read > tags from miles away (or read license plates from space in real time). Ground based optical license plate readers are working just fine. >>>> "Multiple cards can be read at a distance and simultaneously with >>>> vicinity RFID technology, allowing an entire car full of people to be [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >You probably worry about the Nat Sec Acy reading your license plate from >space on a real time basis.... I don't really worry about it, because the locals can do that a a lot easier with cameras placed on poles. >I doubt that we will ever get into the situation where you can read a group >of rfid equipped passports from a nearby roof - unless by nearby you mean - >the same roof. We are _already_ at that point. That is, long range RFID reading has been demonstrated: http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/000798.html (scroll down to "Radio, Radio"). >The big advantage of RFID tags in DLs and passports is the ability to encode >lots of information and to update that information anytime the tag is read. You don't need RF for that; a technology which requires the reader to contact the passport can do it. SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. >>I doubt that we will ever get into the situation where you can read a >>group [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/000798.html > (scroll down to "Radio, Radio"). 50 FEET is not long range. And a demonstration in a room with an unshielded RFID tag isn't proving anything except that you can read an unshielded tag in the same room from more than a few inches. This is nothing like trying to read an RFID chip inside a passports in your pocket inside a moving vehicle. If the guy that doing the demonstration wanted to prove that you could read the tags from longer range - why didn't he send someone into an adjacent room? I know the reason - because it wouldn't have worked. Did you look at his rig? Heck the antennas were 12 foot long.... >>The big advantage of RFID tags in DLs and passports is the ability to >>encode [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You don't need RF for that; a technology which requires the reader to > contact the passport can do it. And? I certainly can see the advantage of making a passport that can be read as you pass through a portal (like a door). I can also see companies wanting their employees to carry locator tags so they can be quickly located in a plant (like the badges on Star Trek). The new ID badges at my workplace use RFID tags. I assume eventually they will have readers spread around the plant. I am not sure of the range. I know you actually have to almost touch the readers at doors before they are detected. Perhaps I'll soon see a bunch of 12 foot long antennas in the hallways.... Ed >50 FEET is not long range. And a demonstration in a room with an unshielded >RFID tag isn't proving anything except that you can read an unshielded tag >in the same room from more than a few inches. This is nothing like trying to >read an RFID chip inside a passports in your pocket inside a moving vehicle. I didn't say anything about a moving vehicle. I'm talking about scanning groups of people on foot, not in vehicles. Fifty feet is plenty of range for that. >If the guy that doing the demonstration wanted to prove that you could read >the tags from longer range - why didn't he send someone into an adjacent >room? I know the reason - because it wouldn't have worked. >Did you look at his rig? Heck the antennas were 12 foot long.... It is simple to make antennas of equivalent gain which are shorter, though they will have a greater cross sectional area. >> You don't need RF for that; a technology which requires the reader to >> contact the passport can do it. > >And? I certainly can see the advantage of making a passport that can be read >as you pass through a portal (like a door). That "advantage" is the problem. SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. |
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