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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / January 2008

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Old radar detctors having a special alert for "instant on" threats

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Justin - 31 Dec 2007 20:29 GMT
Many older radar detectors (like old Escorts, for example) used to have
a seperate special alert for "instant on" radar sources. Newer units,
like Escort's Passport 8500 x50, do not have a seperate alert for
"instant on" attacks. Intead, an "instant on" radar will register as a
standard X, K, or Ka band alert. I like the idea of having a seperate
alert for "instant on" because then you know you have to make a quick
decision. If the officer is using continuous on, you'll probably have
more time to react and to slow down if necessary. I guess they
discontinued the seperate alert because they now have seperate alerts
for laser and radar guns in POP mode, and that may confuse some. But,
is there another reason why most newer radar detcetors do not alert to
"instant on" in this way?

Thanks.
Dave - 01 Jan 2008 23:12 GMT
> Many older radar detectors (like old Escorts, for example) used to have
> a seperate special alert for "instant on" radar sources. Newer units,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Thanks.

Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you are
about to be issued a speeding citation.  It doesn't matter how fast you
react, by the time the RD beeps, you are busted.  So a separate alarm for
"instant on" is meaningless, unless you are really REALLY desperate to know
immediately what technology was used to determine how fast you were driving
above the limit.  -Dave
Justin - 02 Jan 2008 00:06 GMT
>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you are
>about to be issued a speeding citation.  It doesn't matter how fast you
>react, by the time the RD beeps, you are busted.  So a separate alarm for
>"instant on" is meaningless, unless you are really REALLY desperate to know
>immediately what technology was used to determine how fast you were driving
>above the limit.  -Dave

This response tells me you've either never used one, or you're a cop. Or both.

So which is it?
Dave - 02 Jan 2008 13:51 GMT
>>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you
>>are
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> So which is it?

I used one, and I'm not a cop.  My experience with radar detectors . . .

With one . . . get pulled over a lot less often, and get ticketed, every
time

Without one . . . get pulled over more often, but always let off with a
warning

You want to use one?  Feel free.  It's not my driving record that will
suffer.  -Dave
Justin - 02 Jan 2008 16:26 GMT
>I used one, and I'm not a cop.  My experience with radar detectors . . .
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>You want to use one?  Feel free.  It's not my driving record that will
>suffer.  -Dave

Well Dave, my experience has been different from yours, that's for sure. I
can tell you that I have been stopped, without a RD, and still gotten a
citation. In those situations, I was always courteous and respectful to the
officers, I had all of the required paperwork in order, I never gave anyone
a hard time, and I still got cited. Was I guilty? Yes, most certainly. Did I
deserve the citation? Yes. However, lots of other people who are deserving
of a citation in similar sitations are given breaks. From your comments, I'm
guessing your experience falls into this category. The point is, I've NEVER
been cut a break. Not one. Maybe you are a better smooth talker than I, but
I've never gotten a break. So, I feel that having the RD evens the odds a
little bit. Because I am getting stopped less, that means fewer tickets, and
therefore a better driving record. If I do get caught with the RD, sure,
I'll probably get a ticket. But considering my past experience, if I was
going to get cited anyway, whats the difference?
Ashton Crusher - 03 Jan 2008 02:18 GMT
>>>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you
>>>are
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>You want to use one?  Feel free.  It's not my driving record that will
>suffer.  -Dave

Just because you can't use one intelligently doesn't mean no one else
can.
Scott in SoCal - 02 Jan 2008 15:00 GMT
>>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you are
>>about to be issued a speeding citation.  It doesn't matter how fast you
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>So which is it?

Neither. He's just a guy who understands physics.

An instant-on radar or lidar gun take only a few MILLIseconds to
determine your speed. Your speed is measured and locked in almost
before the first sound waves from the detector even reach your ears;
the several seconds it takes for you to hear the sound, react, and
scrub off enough speed to be legal is HUNDREDS of times too long to
save you.

Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
Signature

"Over the past few weeks, I've let a close friend (Eric) label certain MTR
and RAD individuals as homosexuals.  I do want to take this opportunity to
apologise, for not taking my part in stopping this ignorant behaviour."
 - Carl Rogers, Message-ID: <HxG%i.17$AR7.6@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>

Justin - 02 Jan 2008 15:37 GMT
>Neither. He's just a guy who understands physics.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>scrub off enough speed to be legal is HUNDREDS of times too long to
>save you.

You're stating the obvious here, but this is not what detectors defend
against.

So, it's never possible to detect a continuous on radar source? And don't say
"they never use continuous on" because I saw one just last week and I still
see them quite a bit.

What about detecting "instant on" signals two, three, four, or more cars
ahead? Not possible either I guess?
Scott in SoCal - 03 Jan 2008 02:55 GMT
>>Neither. He's just a guy who understands physics.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>So, it's never possible to detect a continuous on radar source?

Sure it is. Just about every bank and grocery store you pass is
sending out a continuous signal. :)

>What about detecting "instant on" signals two, three, four, or more cars
>ahead? Not possible either I guess?

I can already detect those - with my EYES. I can see the brake lights
down the road as people ahead of me get nailed - no radar detector
needed. :)

And, as the other poster said, having a RD in your car (or the
telltale circular mark left by the suction cup mount) tells the cop
that you are a sly habitual violator, and is a sure way to turn a
warning into a ticket.

I am living proof that one does not NEED a radar detector to remain
ticket-free. Even though I drive a Safety Yellow Corvette, I have had
no tickets (or collisions) in over 20 years.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Alan Baker - 02 Jan 2008 18:50 GMT
> >>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you
> >>are
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.

Quick question: are you assuming that your car is the first one to be
zapped?

Signature

Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Scott in SoCal - 03 Jan 2008 02:57 GMT
>> >>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you
>> >>are
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>Quick question: are you assuming that your car is the first one to be
>zapped?

If it's a LIDAR gun that's zapping you, it doesn't matter. The beam is
so tight there is virtually no spillover. Unless you are being
specifically targeted, your detector will never "see" the beam.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Alan Baker - 03 Jan 2008 06:47 GMT
> >> >>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you
> >> >>are
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> so tight there is virtually no spillover. Unless you are being
> specifically targeted, your detector will never "see" the beam.

If it's LIDAR, that *might* be true, but then again, it might not.

But you admit it's certainly *not* true about radar, right?

Signature

Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Scott in SoCal - 03 Jan 2008 15:15 GMT
>> >Quick question: are you assuming that your car is the first one to be
>> >zapped?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>But you admit it's certainly *not* true about radar, right?

Have you been reading the entire thread? I already addressed that
point in another post.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Alan Baker - 03 Jan 2008 18:02 GMT
> >> >Quick question: are you assuming that your car is the first one to be
> >> >zapped?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Have you been reading the entire thread? I already addressed that
> point in another post.

And that's why you've now carefully snipped out the text to which I
replied with that question above...

> > > >> An instant-on radar or lidar gun take only a few MILLIseconds to
> > > >> determine your speed. Your speed is measured and locked in almost
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > > >>
> > > >> Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.

That's you claiming that instant on *radar* is unavoidable with a
*radar* detector.

Signature

Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Matthew Russotto - 04 Jan 2008 04:02 GMT
>If it's a LIDAR gun that's zapping you, it doesn't matter. The beam is
>so tight there is virtually no spillover. Unless you are being
>specifically targeted, your detector will never "see" the beam.

Not so.  The beam both spreads and is scattered by the atmosphere.
Bill - 03 Jan 2008 01:36 GMT
>>>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you
>>>are
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.

You're assuming that the radar isn't turned on until you show up. A good
radar detector will pick up the signal when the cop pings cars ahead of you.
There will of course be times when you're the first car they check after a
stop, but these are rare. A really good radar detector can pick up a LOS
signal a couple miles ahead. I've picked up older X-band units five miles
away. In 30 years, the only time I've gotten a ticket when my Escort or
Passport was running was when I ignored it because it was a spot where there
was always a false alarm on the same frequency.

- B
Ashton Crusher - 03 Jan 2008 02:21 GMT
>>>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you are
>>>about to be issued a speeding citation.  It doesn't matter how fast you
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.

Another person unable to use one effectively who assumes that because
they can't no one else can.  Bottom line, if the equipment is beyond
your capabilities, then don't use it.  Don't presume to speak for
those who are capable of using it effectively.
Scott in SoCal - 03 Jan 2008 03:56 GMT
>>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
>
>Another person unable to use one effectively who assumes that because
>they can't no one else can.

I don't *need* one - my driving record is proof of that. However, if
you can't drive fast without electronic training wheels, that's your
problem.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Ashton Crusher - 04 Jan 2008 05:47 GMT
>>>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>you can't drive fast without electronic training wheels, that's your
>problem.

Your driving record proves nothing.  I know plenty of horrible drivers
who don't get tickets (I'm not saying you are).  Ticket history is a
crap shoot.  And no one "needs" one.  It's just one more tool.  Some
people are able to use it effectively and some aren't.  You apparently
are not able to.
Scott in SoCal - 04 Jan 2008 06:07 GMT
>>>>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Your driving record proves nothing.  

I drive a Safety Yellow Corvette. Prior to this, I have owned two
Cobras (one of which was also Yellow), an Arrest-Me Red Mustang GT, an
Arrest-Me Red Mustang LX 5.0, and various other "ticket magnet" cars.
I exceed the posted speed limit each and every time I drive. And I
have never used a radar detector. If you think you can dismiss all
that with a wave of your hand, the only thing you are dismissing is
your own credibility.

>Ticket history is a crap shoot.

In a *true* crap shoot a RD won't help at all. Getting a ticket purely
random chance.

>And no one "needs" one.  It's just one more tool.  Some
>people are able to use it effectively and some aren't.  You apparently
>are not able to.

How can you tell? Have you ever seen me use one?

That's like seeing someone driving a car with an automatic
transmission and assuming that they cannot drive stick effectively.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Ashton Crusher - 05 Jan 2008 06:36 GMT
>>>>>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>that with a wave of your hand, the only thing you are dismissing is
>your own credibility.

Yet you don't see the irony that you dismiss whatever anyone who uses
a radar detector says with a wave of your hand.  That's why you have
such limited credibility.

>>Ticket history is a crap shoot.
>
>In a *true* crap shoot a RD won't help at all. Getting a ticket purely
>random chance.

It's not completely random nor is it completely logical.  Why do you
always want everything to be black and white?

>>And no one "needs" one.  It's just one more tool.  Some
>>people are able to use it effectively and some aren't.  You apparently
>>are not able to.
>
>How can you tell? Have you ever seen me use one?

Your own words say it.  Are you now going to claim you could more
effectively exceed the speed limit if you were to use a radar detector
after you previously declared them useless?  To go back to the
genesis, lots of people who don't use radar detectors don't get
speeding tickets yet they speed. Does that prove radar detectors are
useless?  Of course not.  Lots of people who speed and use radar
detectors also get tickets, does that prove radar detectors are
worthless?  Of course not.  MANY factors are at play.

>That's like seeing someone driving a car with an automatic
>transmission and assuming that they cannot drive stick effectively.
 No, a correct analogy for your statements would be seeing someone
who says radar detectors are useless, when clearly they are not, and
assuming they cannot use a radar detector effectively.

I've driven with radar detectors and without them and I can drive
faster with one as long as I use it wisely compared to how I would
have to drive without it in the same traffic and geometric situations.
As I said before, it's just a tool.  Some people can use it
effectively and some can't.  By your own statements you fall in the
second category.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Jan 2008 16:53 GMT
>>>>>>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Yet you don't see the irony that you dismiss whatever anyone who uses
>a radar detector says with a wave of your hand.

Not with a wave of the hand, but with sound logical reasoning.
Apparently you are too busy rationalizing your $400 purchase to
realize that.

>>>Ticket history is a crap shoot.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It's not completely random nor is it completely logical.  Why do you
>always want everything to be black and white?

Because the physical world operates in a logical manner.
Electromagnetic waves travel in certain ways and possess certain
properties; owning a radar detector does not alter the laws of
physics. The only irrational part is how (some) humans think. Blanket
statements such as "I can't cpount how many times my radar detector
saved my a.s!" are immediately suspect. The people who say things like
this are not running controlled scientific experiments - they have no
way to KNOW why that cop they saw did not pursue them.

>>>And no one "needs" one.  It's just one more tool.  Some
>>>people are able to use it effectively and some aren't.  You apparently
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Your own words say it.  

Not to anyone with an understanding of basic logic.

>Are you now going to claim you could more
>effectively exceed the speed limit if you were to use a radar detector
>after you previously declared them useless?  

You seem to have missed the post where I pointed out that a RD does
have some limited usefulness in certain situations, but those
advantages are offset by the prejudice factor: if a cop sees a RD (or
the telltale suction cup mark) on your windshield, he will conclude
that you are a sly, habitual offender and treat you accordingly. You
might have gotten a warning, but once he saw your RD he changed his
mind and gave you a ticket.

In the grand scheme of things it's not worth it.

>To go back to the
>genesis, lots of people who don't use radar detectors don't get
>speeding tickets yet they speed. Does that prove radar detectors are
>useless?  

What it proves is that no one NEEDS a RD in order to escape being
ticketed. Once you acknowledge that there are many reasons why you
didn't get a ticket even though you were speeding, you realize that
attributing all your "saves" to your RD is ridiculous.

>I've driven with radar detectors and without them and I can drive
>faster with one as long as I use it wisely compared to how I would
>have to drive without it in the same traffic and geometric situations.
>As I said before, it's just a tool.  Some people can use it
>effectively and some can't.  By your own statements you fall in the
>second category.

You have yet to prove that ridiculous assertion. You cannot judge my
effectiveness at using Device X if I have never used Device X.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Ashton Crusher - 05 Jan 2008 18:37 GMT
>>>>>>>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>Apparently you are too busy rationalizing your $400 purchase to
>realize that.

Your reasoning is not logical.  You state incorrect premises and then
make incorrect conclusions as a result.

>>>>Ticket history is a crap shoot.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>this are not running controlled scientific experiments - they have no
>way to KNOW why that cop they saw did not pursue them.

and yet you are 100% certain that in EVERY case what they say is not
true (that the cop would not have gone after them).  That is one of
your typical incorrect premises you use to build a case.  Plus, one
reason they can't count how many times is exactly because they can't
tell which times the RD detector DID save them and which times it was
an illusion.  But your implicit claim that in ALL cases it was an
illusion is nonsense since you, like them, have no way to know.  What
we do know, is that cops do stop some people for speeding and those of
us who do use radar detectors have many times seen the guy who just a
minute earlier zoom past us stopped a mile down the road getting a
ticket.  If that guy hadn't been zapped it could have been us, except
we may have been warned by our RD.  You, on the other hand, would have
had one less tool to rely on and as a result you would have to have
either slowed down to reduce your odds of getting a ticket, or kept
going the same speed with increased odds of getting a ticket.  In one
case you wind up traveling at reduced speed, ie. your speeding is less
efficient then it would have been with a radar detector, or you wind
up traveling with increased odds of getting ticketed.

>>>>And no one "needs" one.  It's just one more tool.  Some
>>>>people are able to use it effectively and some aren't.  You apparently
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Not to anyone with an understanding of basic logic.

Quite the opposite, anyone with an understanding of logic understands
that you want to have it both ways, you want to claim RDs are useless
while at the same time claiming that if YOU were using one it would
provide you with a benefit due to your superior skills.  In the world
of Brent, no one but Brent is skilled enough to use a radar detector
effectively, and yet, RDs are not effective.

>>Are you now going to claim you could more
>>effectively exceed the speed limit if you were to use a radar detector
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>have some limited usefulness in certain situations, but those
>advantages are offset by the prejudice factor:

Again, you want to mix two things that don't go together.  If the RD
is used effectively then you don't get stopped and your claim of a
prejudice factor is immaterial.  Not to mention that no one but you,
who doesn't use a RD detector, has observed this "prejudice factor".
It's  interesting how the person who DOESN"T use one knows more about
how things go when you do use one then the people who DO use one.
That's a very typical bizzaro-Brent world view - as always, Brent
knows more about something then the users of that something, he's just
special that way.

>if a cop sees a RD (or
>the telltale suction cup mark) on your windshield, he will conclude
>that you are a sly, habitual offender and treat you accordingly.

Post some data for this nonsense.  Plus, as I already explained to you
(not that it will do any good), if the RD is used properly you won't
get stopped.

You
>might have gotten a warning, but once he saw your RD he changed his
>mind and gave you a ticket.

I love the way you can read minds.   I've been stopped with those
"tell tale signs" and gotten a warning so factually we know your claim
is not true.

>In the grand scheme of things it's not worth it.

Well, thank you very much for your opinion. You do realize I hope,
that your statement above is just that, an opinion, and nothing more.
Millions of people disagree with you.  Their own experiences,
experiences you DON"T have, say you are wrong.  But don't let other
people's views or experience influence you.  You are free to hold
whatever opinion you wish, just don't claim its based on facts or
logic because it's been demonstrated many times that you have neither
the facts or a logical basis for your claims.

>>To go back to the
>>genesis, lots of people who don't use radar detectors don't get
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>didn't get a ticket even though you were speeding, you realize that
>attributing all your "saves" to your RD is ridiculous.

No one ever said they did NEED one or that ALL  "saves" are from the
RD.  Nice strawmen though.  You seem to specialize in strawmen and
tangents.  All one NEEDS in order to avoid getting ticketed is to not
speed (with due allowance for stupid and unethical cops).  

>>I've driven with radar detectors and without them and I can drive
>>faster with one as long as I use it wisely compared to how I would
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>You have yet to prove that ridiculous assertion. You cannot judge my
>effectiveness at using Device X if I have never used Device X.

 OK, I'll agree with you, I can't personally judge your effectiveness
at using a RD.  That said, you can't judge everyone else's
effectiveness when using one because you aren't there with them, so
all your sweeping claims about how this that or the other thing IS
going to happen are just you blowing smoke out your a.s.

However, I can take YOUR statements about how RDs are essentially
useless and conclude that if YOU think they are useless that YOU don't
have any basis to think YOUR  having one would make you more
"effective" at speeding.  So it still boils down to YOUR OWN WORDS
showing that YOU have no expectation that a RD would do anything
useful for YOU.  Please explain to me how YOU would use a RD
effectively since you seem to object to the notion that Scott can't
use one Effectively.  Then once you have explained how the GREAT AND
POWERFUL SCOTT could use one effectively, explain how you can average
the same or HIGHER speeds without one and still have the same
probability of getting a ticket.  Don't lose sign of the goal, which
is speeding and not getting ticketed.  The baseline is: average speed
X results in Probability of getting ticketed Y.  You have to show how
having a RD does not allow an increase in X while holding Y constant,
or conversely, how having a RD does not facilitate decreasing Y while
holding X constant.  If the RD can increase X while holding Y
constant, or decrease Y while holding X constant, then the RD works.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Jan 2008 21:00 GMT
>and yet you are 100% certain that in EVERY case what they say is not
>true (that the cop would not have gone after them).

Strawman fallacy.

>>>Are you now going to claim you could more
>>>effectively exceed the speed limit if you were to use a radar detector
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Again, you want to mix two things that don't go together.  If the RD
>is used effectively then you don't get stopped

What a ridiculous claim! LOTS of people use their RDs in the most
effective manner; the simple fact is it's not always effective enough.

>and your claim of a prejudice factor is immaterial.  

Whatever you say. :)

>Not to mention that no one but you,
>who doesn't use a RD detector, has observed this "prejudice factor".

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/a-10fly.html

>Any time you believe that an officer wants to close in on you, remove
>the detector at once and place it on the seat next to you. If you are in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>lighter outlet is a dead giveaway to the officer that he is dealing
>with a chronic but sly violator. He will treat you accordingly.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Ashton Crusher - 07 Jan 2008 05:43 GMT
>>and yet you are 100% certain that in EVERY case what they say is not
>>true (that the cop would not have gone after them).
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>lighter outlet is a dead giveaway to the officer that he is dealing
>>with a chronic but sly violator. He will treat you accordingly.

I can always tell when you know you've been sliced and diced because
you are compelled to reply but snip all the material that you cannot
overcome and just leave your mouse droppings.  You have even given up
on writing your own material LOL!  Next you'll be quoting Carl!!
Jim Yanik - 04 Jan 2008 14:31 GMT
>>>>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> people are able to use it effectively and some aren't.  You apparently
> are not able to.

maybe the cops are particularly inept when Scott is....
He certainly doesn't have cops using disguises like the Orlando Sheriffs do
on University Blvd. Like Santa with a radar gun,or a "lineman" up in a
utility bucket,or a bum on a bench.Even a guy hidden in a cardboard box
next to the road! I'd like to hear how Scott would have spotted -that- as a
threat.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Ashton Crusher - 05 Jan 2008 06:37 GMT
>>>>>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>next to the road! I'd like to hear how Scott would have spotted -that- as a
>threat.
 Scott is very *Scott-centric*.  Anything outside his little world
doesn't count.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Jan 2008 16:56 GMT
>>maybe the cops are particularly inept when Scott is....
>>He certainly doesn't have cops using disguises like the Orlando Sheriffs do
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  Scott is very *Scott-centric*.  Anything outside his little world
>doesn't count.

So now it degrades to the Ad Hominem attacks - a clear indication that
you have lost this argument.

Look, I'm sorry I gored your sacred cow, but once you get past the
denial stage you'll realize I'm right.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Ashton Crusher - 05 Jan 2008 18:39 GMT
>>>maybe the cops are particularly inept when Scott is....
>>>He certainly doesn't have cops using disguises like the Orlando Sheriffs do
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Look, I'm sorry I gored your sacred cow, but once you get past the
>denial stage you'll realize I'm right.

I'm sorry the truth hurts Scott.  Once you get past the denial stage
you'll realize I'm right.
Scott in SoCal - 05 Jan 2008 21:01 GMT
>>>>maybe the cops are particularly inept when Scott is....
>>>>He certainly doesn't have cops using disguises like the Orlando Sheriffs do
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>I'm sorry the truth hurts Scott.  Once you get past the denial stage
>you'll realize I'm right.

I know you are but what am I?
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Ashton Crusher - 03 Jan 2008 04:01 GMT
>>>Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you are
>>>about to be issued a speeding citation.  It doesn't matter how fast you
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Bottom line, a radar detector is just a very expensive placebo.

Cops rarely spend a their time on roads with no traffic.  With a good
detector you will be picking up the instant on that he's popping the
many cars ahead of you with.  You'll still get a warning.

Bottom line, a RD is one more tool that can be used wisely or
stupidly, it's up to the operator.
Scott in SoCal - 03 Jan 2008 05:58 GMT
>Bottom line, a RD is one more tool that can be used wisely or
>stupidly, it's up to the operator.

I suppose it can't hurt... Unless, of course, you get lazy and slack
off your visual scanning, thinking the RD will cover your a.s. That
falls squarely into the "used stupidly" category.

Still, I would only use a RD if it were a "stealth" install -
invisible to any cop that happens to pull me over. And, since
Valentine One doesn't make a stealth RD, that means I'll probably
never own one.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Larry Bud - 03 Jan 2008 00:26 GMT
> Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that you are
> about to be issued a speeding citation.  It doesn't matter how fast you
> react, by the time the RD beeps, you are busted.

Not when the cop pulls over the guy 1/4 mile in front of you.
Jim Yanik - 03 Jan 2008 15:15 GMT
>> Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that
>> you a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Not when the cop pulls over the guy 1/4 mile in front of you.

or even just if he clocks a car ahead;I've been saved several times that
way. you get a brief alert where there usually are no alerts.

That's why the shift to laser speed guns,not much scatter or beam spread.
OTOH,they take require work from the officer,thus not so prevalent.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Scott in SoCal - 04 Jan 2008 02:45 GMT
>>> Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that
>>> you a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>or even just if he clocks a car ahead;I've been saved several times that
>way.

You have no proof of that. You cannot replay history and see what
would have happened if you had not had a radar detector in your car.

For all you know, the cop just wasn't interested in you, or wasn't
aiming at you, etc. This is where the Placebo Effect comes in - if you
have a radar detector in your car, and you pass a cop without getting
a ticket, human nature is naturally going to attribute the RD with
having "saved" you. It's called "rationalization," and the more your
radar detector cost you, the bigger a factor it will be in your
perception of how many times it saves your a.s. People just don't want
to believe that they wasted $400 on a piece of mostly-useless
electronic gear, so they give it credit where credit is not due.

Take the case cited above where a cop "pulls over the guy 1/4 mile
ahead of you." Once that cop made the decision to pull that guy over,
YOU WERE NEVER IN ANY DANGER. Your detector did NOT "save" you.

Similarly, once traffic ahead of you spots the cop sitting there
taking pictures, they are going to apply their brakes. Any driver
worthy of a license will slow down when they see brake lights ahead,
at least until the cause of all the braking is determined. In this
case, your eyes and your brain were all you needed.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Ashton Crusher - 07 Jan 2008 05:44 GMT
>>>> Simple answer . . . a radar detector is only useful to warn you that
>>>> you a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>You have no proof of that. You cannot replay history and see what
>would have happened if you had not had a radar detector in your car.

Give it up.  Or get a detector and use one for a while so you'll be
doing something other then talking out of your a.s.

>For all you know, the cop just wasn't interested in you, or wasn't
>aiming at you, etc. This is where the Placebo Effect comes in - if you
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>at least until the cause of all the braking is determined. In this
>case, your eyes and your brain were all you needed.
John S. - 02 Jan 2008 18:38 GMT
> Many older radar detectors (like old Escorts, for example) used to have
> a seperate special alert for "instant on" radar sources. Newer units,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Thanks.

Even an instant on device is far from failproof.  It just means you
have already been targeted.  I've got a tool that has never let me
down.  Indeed I can say it is 100% effective in avoiding speeding
tickets.  Just obey the speed limit.
N8N - 02 Jan 2008 22:14 GMT
> > Many older radar detectors (like old Escorts, for example) used to have
> > a seperate special alert for "instant on" radar sources. Newer units,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> down.  Indeed I can say it is 100% effective in avoiding speeding
> tickets.  Just obey the speed limit.

While that may ensure that you do not get a speeding ticket (although
I have actually been ticketed for speeding while traveling at below
the posted limit, so that's not failure proof) it is no protection
against being pulled over for appearing suspicious or being tailgated
by a Peterbilt.

nate
Scott in SoCal - 03 Jan 2008 03:00 GMT
>While that may ensure that you do not get a speeding ticket (although
>I have actually been ticketed for speeding while traveling at below
>the posted limit, so that's not failure proof) it is no protection
>against being pulled over for [...] being tailgated by a Peterbilt.

Any cop who would pull YOU over because some a.shole Trucker is
tailgating you deserved to lose his badge and gun.
Signature

A cause of Reaction Formation is when a person seeks to cover up
something unacceptable by adopting an opposite stance. For example
the gay person who [...] may be concealing their homosexual reality.
This may be a conscious concealment but also may well occur at the subconscious level such
that they do not realize the real cause of their behavior. Reaction Formation thus can turn
homosexual tendencies (love men) to homophobic ones (hate men).
Freud called the exaggerated compensation that can appear in Reaction Formation
‘overboarding’ as the person is going overboard in one direction to distract from and cover
up something unwanted in the other direction [...]

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

Garth Almgren - 02 Jan 2008 22:20 GMT
> I've got a tool that has never let me
> down.  Indeed I can say it is 100% effective in avoiding speeding
> tickets.  Just obey the speed limit.

Not even that is 100% effective. It's only your word vs an officer's and
a traffic judge will *always* take the officer's word over yours...

Signature

~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.
Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave.
******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
                      --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

Jim Yanik - 02 Jan 2008 23:20 GMT
>> I've got a tool that has never let me
>> down.  Indeed I can say it is 100% effective in avoiding speeding
>> tickets.  Just obey the speed limit.
>
> Not even that is 100% effective. It's only your word vs an officer's and
> a traffic judge will *always* take the officer's word over yours...

I recall when that house was clocked with a radar gun at something like 28
MPH.
and the laser guns that are used handheld when their certification tests
were done on a tripod.

Signature

Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Larry Bud - 03 Jan 2008 00:31 GMT
> Indeed I can say it is 100% effective in avoiding speeding
> tickets.  Just obey the speed limit.

Where do you live?  Fantasyland?

I've first hand have seen in traffic court a delivery driver get
totally screwed over by a power hungry cop, and a moron magistrate.
This guy parks in a spot making a delivery at a Ford plant.  He gets a
ticket for parking in a handicap spot.   One problem, the spot isn't
marked, ANYWHERE.   The driver and photographic proof of that.  No
blue lines, no blue handicap paint on the ground, no handicap sign.
Nothing.

The cop says "Well, anyone should KNOW that's a handicap spot".
"I agree" says the magistrate.

So now, not only do you have to follow the laws which are posted, you
have to be a psychic and just "know" that he shouldn't have parked
there.
 
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