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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / January 2008

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Free Market for Transportation Plan

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Scott in SoCal - 18 Jan 2008 15:39 GMT
http://moderntransit.org/fmt/fmt02.html

Executive Summary

This Plan details the legal and political steps to eliminate
automobile subsidies, and to increase the efficiency of all
transportation modes. It explains how to eliminate direct and indirect
government subsidies, as well as government requirements for
involuntary private subsidies. Included is a version of the plan
written in legal form, as it would appear if it were a city ordinance.
After enactment and evaluation, this would be a prototype for
legislation to make similar changes at the state and county levels.

Automobile expenditures would be shifted from the general taxpayer to
the automobile users. Fares for road usage and parking would be
collected using non-stop, modern fare collection technology. FREEways
would become FAREways. The use of free-market principles will benefit
all transportation modes, including automobiles, and the economy in
general. Sources for Road Financing (page 4) explains economic
effects, and Modern Fare Collection (page 7) gives technical details.
By using congestion pricing, the flow rate of automobiles would be
greatly increased (see graph, below) and congestion eliminated.

The passage of this plan will eliminate requirements for the provision
of parking, assessment districts for traffic mitigation, developer
fees for roads, sales taxes for freeways and roads, and the myriad of
subsidies (outlined in Huge City Subsidies for Autos, Trucks, page
11), which totals more than $4 per gallon of gas sold.

The elimination of laws forcing automobile accommodation and subsidies
will allow land use to be transit/bicycle/pedestrian-oriented. No one
would be forced to build transit-oriented development or to abolish
parking spaces. This plan, if passed, would simply allow the
possibility of transit, bicycle, and people oriented development,
which today is prohibited almost everywhere. We believe that free
market forces will naturally lean toward the types of development that
occurred in the past, when public transit was privately owned and
unsubsidized.

Pollution fees would be charged against air polluters, in amounts
proportional to the pollution they produce.

Both pollution fees and road fares would pay for expenses and negative
effects of the automobile. They should also substitute for general
taxes (especially the sales tax) because, for decades, government
subsidized the automobile and required land use that discourages
transit, pedestrians, and bicycles (e.g., sprawl). The result of this
government-required automobile-oriented development is that
automobiles have an unfair competitive advantage. In order to attract
private enterprise to again provide mass transit, this unfair
advantage needs to be negated by government action to recover a profit
from the automobile and truck transportation industry.

Everyone benefits by a Free Market for Transportation with the
possible exception of oil, automobile, trucking, and highway/road
construction interests (including highway engineers and Caltrans). But
large groups of moneyed interests also benefit, making it easier for
passage. (See Other ways people benefit from the Plan, page 9.)

One of the biggest selling points of the Plan is that it would even
benefit those who insist on continued automobile commuting. This Plan
would eliminate traffic congestion by using congestion pricing to
achieve the optimal vehicle flow rate. At 40 mph, the capacity of a
freeway is double that of stop-and-go, 10 mph traffic, and it takes
1/4 the travel time (see graph, below). This fact, while not widely
known, is repeatedly found in highway engineering studies.

Even non-motorists would benefit by eliminating traffic congestion.
Political pressure for more subsidies for more highway construction
should end by people no longer stuck in traffic.
Signature

"Therefore, you are not worth my time...  Have an excellent weekend,
Sunshine.  Truth be told, I'll be too busy to respond back to you.  My
fiancée and I will be too busy love-making!"
 - Carl Rogers, Message-ID: <kekKg.23278$gY6.2474@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>

Brent P - 18 Jan 2008 17:25 GMT
> http://moderntransit.org/fmt/fmt02.html

> the automobile users. Fares for road usage and parking would be
> collected using non-stop, modern fare collection technology. FREEways
> would become FAREways.

<...>
> Both pollution fees and road fares would pay for expenses and negative
> effects of the automobile. They should also substitute for general
> taxes (especially the sales tax)

This is the same political process we have now except geared in an
anti-car anti-travel for the ordinary person mode. This is not free
market.

A free market solution is private roads / transit without government
interference and completely open competition with land needing to be
purchased on the open market. (ie no government help forcing people at
the barrel of a gun to sell)

Once the political process is involved one group will win over others by
using regulation to stifle the competition.
Scott in SoCal - 19 Jan 2008 02:07 GMT
>> http://moderntransit.org/fmt/fmt02.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>purchased on the open market. (ie no government help forcing people at
>the barrel of a gun to sell)

In a truly free market, there would be no gas taxes, property taxes,
or other government subsidies to pay for roads. How would the free
market fund them if not in the manner outlined in this proposal?
Signature

"You can all kiss my @ss!"
 - Carl Rogers, Message-ID: <IE1ej.2353$se5.298@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>

Brent P - 19 Jan 2008 02:26 GMT
>>> http://moderntransit.org/fmt/fmt02.html
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> or other government subsidies to pay for roads. How would the free
> market fund them if not in the manner outlined in this proposal?

A true free market solution would be road companies competing with each
other, charging for the use of their private roads. I don't say that is
workable, only that is what a true free market road system would be. My
point is to call a different sort of government political control of
the roads 'free market' is nonsense.
gpsman - 18 Jan 2008 18:25 GMT
> http://moderntransit.org/fmt/fmt02.html

Where do you find this tripe?

> Executive Summary

> Automobile expenditures would be shifted from the general taxpayer to
> the automobile users.

Read: So that we who live in "a" densely populated for whom public
trans, walking and biking is convenient and don't need a car might
enjoy a tax break.

Good luck with that.

> By using congestion pricing, the flow rate of automobiles would be
> greatly increased (see graph, below) and congestion eliminated.

Pfft.  The same people have to be at work and go home, no matter what
it costs.

> The elimination of laws forcing automobile accommodation and subsidies
> will allow land use to be transit/bicycle/pedestrian-oriented. No one
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> occurred in the past, when public transit was privately owned and
> unsubsidized.

Uh, yeah.  Let's forget about population increases since then and
assume the same thing that worked for 100M people will work for 350M
people who occupy roughly the same space.

> Pollution fees would be charged against air polluters, in amounts
> proportional to the pollution they produce.

And not us.  We shouldn't have to pay because we have everything
beamed into the stores we patronize.
> They should also substitute for general
> taxes (especially the sales tax)

Lol.  Yeah, I guess they should, or could, but if history is any
indicator, they won't, and never will.

> because, for decades, government
> subsidized the automobile and required land use that discourages
> transit, pedestrians, and bicycles (e.g., sprawl).

Yeah, because most people prefer to drive, and the cities won't hold
everybody.  In 50 years your kids will be bitching the sidewalks and
bike paths are too crowded.

> The result of this
> government-required automobile-oriented development is that
> automobiles have an unfair competitive advantage

Uh huh.  That's because there are more cars on the road every year,
Sparky.  Some people have to get places other than within 1 mile of
where they reside.

> In order to attract
> private enterprise to again provide mass transit, this unfair
> advantage needs to be negated by government action to recover a profit
> from the automobile and truck transportation industry.

I guess you haven't priced the cost of building and maintaining and
operating a mass transit system... since about 1945... and assume it
will be suspended in mid air.

> Everyone benefits by a Free Market for Transportation with the
> possible exception of oil, automobile, trucking, and highway/road
> construction interests (including highway engineers and Caltrans).

Oh.  Except "people", other than yourselves.

> But
> large groups of moneyed interests also benefit, making it easier for
> passage. (See Other ways people benefit from the Plan, page 9.)

Uh huh.  To arrive at that conclusion you would have to be absolutely
ignorant of the costs of operating a 1Msf. distribution center
configured on more than 1 floor.

> One of the biggest selling points of the Plan is that it would even
> benefit those who insist on continued automobile commuting.

Uh huh.  Tell me more...

> This Plan
> would eliminate traffic congestion by using congestion pricing to
> achieve the optimal vehicle flow rate. At 40 mph, the capacity of a
> freeway is double that of stop-and-go, 10 mph traffic, and it takes
> 1/4 the travel time (see graph, below). This fact, while not widely
> known, is repeatedly found in highway engineering studies.

That's so ambiguous I don't know where to begin, but it doesn't sound
cheap to implement.  The kids serving breakfast at McDonald's have to
get to work, too.

Oh, I forgot, you don't eat at McDonald's.  The kids serving coffee at
Starbuck's have to get to work, too.

> Even non-motorists would benefit by eliminating traffic congestion.
> Political pressure for more subsidies for more highway construction
> should end by people no longer stuck in traffic.

Maybe, if you could wave your magic wand and make it all happen
today.  I hope that wand has a large reserve for the future, for when
both the highways and your magic transit system/s reach capacity.

Otherwise, figger your magic transit system will be built by exactly
the same calculations all other US infrastructure has been constructed
since the Oregon Trail to date, to meet demands of 20-40 years ago,
obsolete before the first spade of dirt is turned.

<pop>
-----

- gpsman
Ashton Crusher - 19 Jan 2008 05:47 GMT
>http://moderntransit.org/fmt/fmt02.html
>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>Political pressure for more subsidies for more highway construction
>should end by people no longer stuck in traffic.

I notice that there is no mention of ending the HUGE subsidies now
given to all forms of mass transit.  There is not a single mass
transit system in the US the comes close to paying it's own way.  And
most of them use HIGHWAY and ROAD right of way without having paid any
of the cost for that right of way.  There is nothing "free market"
about this approach.
Scott in SoCal - 19 Jan 2008 15:43 GMT
>I notice that there is no mention of ending the HUGE subsidies now
>given to all forms of mass transit.  

1) Perhaps the authors felt that transit was outside of the scope of
their proposal.
2) Subsidies to mass transit are miniscule compared to subsidies to
driving.

>There is not a single mass
>transit system in the US the comes close to paying it's own way.  And
>most of them use HIGHWAY and ROAD right of way without having paid any
>of the cost for that right of way.  There is nothing "free market"
>about this approach.

True, but completely irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

I am on the record as being in favor of removing ALL subsidies for ALL
modes of transportation. Privatize them all, and let the best mix of
modes win in a fair and level playing field.
Signature

"You can all kiss my @ss!"
 - Carl Rogers, Message-ID: <IE1ej.2353$se5.298@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>

Ashton Crusher - 19 Jan 2008 17:08 GMT
>>I notice that there is no mention of ending the HUGE subsidies now
>>given to all forms of mass transit.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>2) Subsidies to mass transit are miniscule compared to subsidies to
>driving.

Hardly.  About 20% of the federal GAS TAX is used to subsidize
"transit" schemes.  And much of what is spent on transit isn't even
counted because it's buried in city and county budgets.  Plus, as I
mentioned, they are NOT charged any of the cost of the R/W they use
which was paid for by VEHICLE users taxes.  It's a long way from
"miniscule".

>>There is not a single mass
>>transit system in the US the comes close to paying it's own way.  And
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>True, but completely irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

How is the subject of the lack of a free market irrelevant to a
discussion of the free market?????

>I am on the record as being in favor of removing ALL subsidies for ALL
>modes of transportation. Privatize them all, and let the best mix of
>modes win in a fair and level playing field.
Scott in SoCal - 19 Jan 2008 18:31 GMT
>>>I notice that there is no mention of ending the HUGE subsidies now
>>>given to all forms of mass transit.  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Hardly.  

Prove it. Pick a year - any year for which you can find data - and
show the TOTAL amount spent on roads, streets, highway patrol,
subsidized parking, etc. and compare that with the TOTAL amount of
transit subsidies.
Signature

"You can all kiss my @ss!"
 - Carl Rogers, Message-ID: <IE1ej.2353$se5.298@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com>

Ashton Crusher - 20 Jan 2008 07:39 GMT
>>>>I notice that there is no mention of ending the HUGE subsidies now
>>>>given to all forms of mass transit.  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>subsidized parking, etc. and compare that with the TOTAL amount of
>transit subsidies.
The total for streets and highways will be higher of course.  Transit
is only in major cities.  Highway users pay about 80 to 90% of the
cost of the highways.  Transit users rarely even pay 50% of the cost.
Scott in SoCal - 20 Jan 2008 16:09 GMT
>>>>>I notice that there is no mention of ending the HUGE subsidies now
>>>>>given to all forms of mass transit.  
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>transit subsidies.
> The total for streets and highways will be higher of course.  

Ah! A reasonable man who is big enough to admit he was wrong. That's
an extremely rare thing these days, especially on USENET. :)

So point 2 listed above still stands.
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Ashton Crusher - 26 Jan 2008 04:53 GMT
>>>>>>I notice that there is no mention of ending the HUGE subsidies now
>>>>>>given to all forms of mass transit.  
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>So point 2 listed above still stands.

Where was I wrong?  I never said highways were 100% subsidy free, only
that they far and away come closest to being paid for by the users
compared to any other scheme.  Show me any place where congestion has
been cured by mass transit.  All mass transit does is make a bunch of
money for some contractor and land owners.  The ONLY reason NYC built
their system in the first place was to get low paid wage slaves to the
factories because they couldn't cram enough of them in to slums near
the factories anymore.  The fact that NO ONE is willing to pay the
actual cost to even USE these systems, much less build them, proves
that anyone who is asked to PAY out of their OWN pocket quickly does
the math and realizes that it's a losing proposition economically.  It
only works out if someone ELSE is paying the construction and
operating cost, or at least the major part of it.
Scott in SoCal - 26 Jan 2008 06:48 GMT
>>>>>>2) Subsidies to mass transit are miniscule compared to subsidies to
>>>>>>driving.

>>> The total for streets and highways will be higher of course.  

>>So point 2 listed above still stands.
>
>Where was I wrong?  

I was merely pointing out that we agree on that point.

>Show me any place where congestion has
>been cured by mass transit.  

Well, there is no traffic congestion on the Metrolink trains that I
ride... :)

Seriously, nobody honestly expects mass transit to completely
eliminate road congestion. Mass transit - especially trains operating
on exclusive rights-of-way - allows people to *escape* road
congestion.
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Ashton Crusher - 28 Jan 2008 04:03 GMT
>>>>>>>2) Subsidies to mass transit are miniscule compared to subsidies to
>>>>>>>driving.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>on exclusive rights-of-way - allows people to *escape* road
>congestion.

And I'd be all for it if those people PAID the cost of their "escape".
Why should road users subsidize transit users???  And how much did
MetroLink pay for the exclusive RW it occupies in the center median of
the existing freeway???
Scott in SoCal - 28 Jan 2008 15:34 GMT
>>Seriously, nobody honestly expects mass transit to completely
>>eliminate road congestion. Mass transit - especially trains operating
>>on exclusive rights-of-way - allows people to *escape* road
>>congestion.
>
>And I'd be all for it if those people PAID the cost of their "escape".

Why should they? Road users don't pay the full costs of their driving,
so why should rail users?

>Why should road users subsidize transit users???  And how much did
>MetroLink pay for the exclusive RW it occupies in the center median of
>the existing freeway???  

In many cases, the railroad ROW was there first, and the road was
built next to it, around it, or even on top of it. One example is the
210 freeway in SoCal. Another is the Eisenhower Expressway in Chicago.
The Pacific Electric was first through the Sepulveda Pass, followed by
a succession of wider and wider roads that ultimately squeezed out the
railroad entirely.
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Ashton Crusher - 30 Jan 2008 05:14 GMT
>>>Seriously, nobody honestly expects mass transit to completely
>>>eliminate road congestion. Mass transit - especially trains operating
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Why should they? Road users don't pay the full costs of their driving,
>so why should rail users?

You're right, no one should pay for anything they use.  We should
abolish all taxes too.  Just have the gvt print money.

>>Why should road users subsidize transit users???  And how much did
>>MetroLink pay for the exclusive RW it occupies in the center median of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>a succession of wider and wider roads that ultimately squeezed out the
>railroad entirely.

Thanks for the pointless and meaningless tangent, it really clarifies
how you think.
Scott in SoCal - 30 Jan 2008 14:04 GMT
>>>>Seriously, nobody honestly expects mass transit to completely
>>>>eliminate road congestion. Mass transit - especially trains operating
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>You're right, no one should pay for anything they use.  We should
>abolish all taxes too.  Just have the gvt print money.

Holy Non-Sequiturs, Batman!!!
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Brent P - 30 Jan 2008 14:38 GMT
> You're right, no one should pay for anything they use.  We should
> abolish all taxes too.  Just have the gvt print money.

That would be better than present situation in the USA where the privately
owned federal reserve banking cartel prints the money and charges the
government interest on the money printed. Our income taxes go to pay that
interest, and interest on the debt, not services.
Brent P - 20 Jan 2008 00:54 GMT
> Hardly.  About 20% of the federal GAS TAX is used to subsidize
> "transit" schemes.  And much of what is spent on transit isn't even
> counted because it's buried in city and county budgets.  Plus, as I
> mentioned, they are NOT charged any of the cost of the R/W they use
> which was paid for by VEHICLE users taxes.  It's a long way from
> "miniscule".

Don't forget the millions of federal gas tax money used on checkpoints
and other non-road building activities besides transit. Also state gas tax
money used on lobbying the federal fovernment and to convince people
that some scheme that the government wants to push is good.
 
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