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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / March 2008Air-Powered Car Coming to U.S. in 2009-10 at $18,000, Could Hit 1000-Mile Range
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= 19 Air-Powered Car Coming to U.S. in 2009 to 2010 at Sub-$18,000, Could Hit 1000-Mile Range The CityCAT, already being developed in India (bottom left), will be available for U.S. production in three different four-door styles. But it's the radical dual-energy engine, with a possible 1000-mile range at 96 mph, that could move the Air Car beyond Auto X Prize dreams and into American garages. By Matt Sullivan Published on: February 22, 2008 The Air Car caused a huge stir when we reported last year that Tata Motors would begin producing it in India. Now the little gas-free ride that could is headed Stateside in a big-time way. Zero Pollution Motors (ZPM) confirmed to PopularMechanics.com on Thursday that it expects to produce the world’s first air-powered car for the United States by late 2009 or early 2010. As the U.S. licensee for Luxembourg-based MDI, which developed the Air Car as a compression-based alternative to the internal combustion engine, ZPM has attained rights to build the first of several modular plants, which are likely to begin manufacturing in the Northeast and grow for regional production around the country, at a clip of up to 10,000 Air Cars per year. And while ZPM is also licensed to build MDI’s two-seater OneCAT economy model (the one headed for India) and three-seat MiniCAT (like a SmartForTwo without the gas), the New Paltz, N.Y., startup is aiming bigger: Company officials want to make the first air-powered car to hit U.S. roads a $17,800, 75-hp equivalent, six-seat modified version of MDI’s CityCAT (pictured above) that, thanks to an even more radical engine, is said to travel as far as 1000 miles at up to 96 mph with each tiny fill-up. We’ll believe that when we drive it, but MDI’s new dual-energy engine—currently being installed in models at MDI facilities overseas—is still pretty damn cool in concept. After using compressed air fed from the same Airbus-built tanks in earlier models to run its pistons, the next-gen Air Car has a supplemental energy source to kick in north of 35 mph, ZPM says. A custom heating chamber heats the air in a process officials refused to elaborate upon, though they insisted it would increase volume and thus the car’s range and speed. “I want to stress that these are estimates, and that we’ll know soon more precisely from our engineers,” ZPM spokesman Kevin Haydon told PM, “but a vehicle with one tank of air and, say, 8 gal. of either conventional petrol, ethanol or biofuel could hit between 800 and 1000 miles.” Those figures would make the Air Car, along with Aptera’s Typ-1 and Tesla’s Roadster, a favorite among early entrants for the Automotive X Prize, for which MDI and ZPM have already signed up. But with the family- size, four-door CityCAT undergoing standard safety tests in Europe, then side-impact tests once it arrives in the States, could it be the first 100-mpg, nonelectric car you can actually buy? Thanks! > http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= > 19 [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > side-impact tests once it arrives in the States, could it be the first > 100-mpg, nonelectric car you can actually buy? >http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= >19 > >Air-Powered Car Coming to U.S. in 2009 to 2010 at Sub-$18,000, Could Hit >1000-Mile Range Sounds like the perfect car for you. With all the hot air you generate, that car would become a perpetual motion machine.  SignaturePlease don't give financial rewards to trolls - DO NOT CLICK on any URLs containing "calrog.com" >>http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= >>19 >> >>Air-Powered Car Coming to U.S. in 2009 to 2010 at Sub-$18,000, Could Hit >>1000-Mile Range >Sounds like the perfect car for you. With all the hot air you >generate, that car would become a perpetual motion machine. My comments ... on the Junkscience blog in response to their sighting in the Times: <http://junkscience.com/blog_js/2008/02/21/forget-biofuel-try-a-car-that-runs-on-air/> -------------------------- [quote] The engine is efficient, cost-effective, scalable and capable of other applications, like power generation A piece of wire would be more efficient to transport the energy initially required to compress the air, transfer it into a tank, for it to be expanded later at the air motor to drive a generator. Energy transport by compressed air would compete with hydrogen for inefficiency. And how efficient? Air motors are never efficient. They're small and light. But could hardly be cursed as being efficient. Perhaps they mean power generation by burning the fibreglass car in a furnace for a boiler to generate steam. That'd be efficient. [quote] What counts is how much energy all the processes involved require - from manufacturing the car to compressing the air. Well no. What counts is how much energy is required to move the car the design distance with a reasonable load and at a fair speed. The motive power would be of the order of 4 kW to achieve about 60 km/h on smooth, level ground. Over 5 hours that works out to about 72 MJ. Roughly that available from 2 litres of diesel fuel. But those 4kW of motive power are at the wheel; not the input to the motor. In the real world, air motors yield about 20% efficiency. So that makes it the equivalent of about 10 litres of diesel fuel required to drive 200 to 300 km. But we can do that now in conventional cars: Safely. Comfortably. And somewhat more quickly. Link to original press release <http://www.mdi.lu/eng/affiche_eng.php?page=onecats> Their story is quite different. The specifications maximum speed 90 km/h. Maximum power 15 horsepower. Petrol used for extra-urban driving. Urban range on air: 100 km. The 15 horsepower (~11 kW) seems about right for a light vehicle to do 90 km/h. It would be unsuitable for general motorway cruising and most open roads when mixing it with normal traffic. Think 2CV. The 200 to 300 km range mentioned in the Slimesonline article looks like an invention. Its not on the spec sheet. ------------------------------------ Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Great minds discuss ideas; X against HTML mail | Average minds discuss events; / \ and postings | Small minds discuss people. -- Eleanor Roosevelt > The Air Car caused a huge stir when we reported last year that Tata > Motors would begin producing it in India. Now the little gas-free ride > that could is headed Stateside in a big-time way. It's NOT zero-pollution. Something has to power those compressors that fill the tanks in this thing, unless you've got a windmill or solar panels on your roof, you create pollution. > > The Air Car caused a huge stir when we reported last year that Tata > > Motors would begin producing it in India. Now the little gas-free ride > > that could is headed Stateside in a big-time way. > It's NOT zero-pollution. �Something has to power those compressors > that fill the tanks in this thing, unless you've got a windmill or > solar panels on your roof, you create pollution. Later they mention an 8 gallon fuel tank. Maybe it's a compressed air hybrid and maybe the compressed air tanks can be pumped up electrically from the grid ["zero emissions"] for a short trip. Compressed air stores even less energy than batteries on a specific energy basis so, without burning fuel, it's going to be a _real_ short trip. Nevertheless, as a hybrid, it may be cheaper to use compressed air and just cycle the ICE on and off much more frequently. Batteries wear out after so many charges which makes batteries more expensive and more fuelish overall than fuel only conventional drives. This might not be as true for a compressed air storage system. Compressed air motors and turbomachinery are extremely compact. The big thing will be the air tank. Bret Cahill >Batteries wear out after so many charges which makes batteries more >expensive and more fuelish overall than fuel only conventional >drives. This might not be as true for a compressed air storage >system. IME, about the only real concern with the tank would be the tank rusting out over time. Even then. just make the thing easily accessable and changing out a corroded tank should be no more difficult nor expensive than changing a battery a car is today. >Compressed air motors and turbomachinery are extremely compact. The >big thing will be the air tank. Air tank and a smaller gas tank where the full sized gas tank is now. C orny A lmanac of L eftcoast R oads O btuse & G rainy In article <20e3b360-717d-4ca5-929d-710a10c5bc26@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > > > The Air Car caused a huge stir when we reported last year that Tata > > > Motors would begin producing it in India. Now the little gas-free ride [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Bret Cahill Bret, there are other problems that have not been addressed. These ‘air’ cars come by every couple of years. What is never talked about by the promoters is how they will get around the problem of the heat of compression. Unless this can be stored for use during the expansion or isothermal compression and expansion are use 75% of the compressors input energy is lost to the motor output shaft. Add the compressor drive motor losses and you have a system efficiency of 18 to 20%. Unless one of these promotors finds a practical method to solve this problem, and receives the Nobel Prize in physics, these air cars are just a waste of bandwidth. SignatureMike Remember companies do not pay taxes. They only collect them from their customers for payment to the government. >> The Air Car caused a huge stir when we reported last year that Tata >> Motors would begin producing it in India. Now the little gas-free ride [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that fill the tanks in this thing, unless you've got a windmill or > solar panels on your roof, you create pollution. Of course. I still feel the best 'battery' we have right now is ethanol. The problem is that the government got involved so it's now all f'd up. Promoted as a engery source instead of a battery oil based fuel is being used to make the ethanol. So now we have high food prices and high gasoline prices with more energy being consumed than before. There are two good ways to make ethanol. The first is with sugar cane or another plant that can provide all the energy needed for the process. The second is to use forms of energy that aren't practical for car. Hydro electric, nuke, wind, solar, etc to provide the energy for the process. Ethanol becomes a good battery for these energy sources. Good not so much because of a lack of energy losses, good in that it can use present infrastructure and its as fast to refuel a car as with gasoline. Back to the thread subject.... air powered cars just haven't worked well and probably won't. It's just the nature of the beast. I suppose someone may come up with something to solve the mechanical issues. Energy wise its pointless unless the energy comes from wind, solar, etc etc. If it comes from oil and coal it's just pointless, actually probably harmful. > http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= > 19 > > Air-Powered Car Coming to U.S. in 2009 to 2010 at Sub-$18,000, Could Hit > 1000-Mile Range WTF??? Did SADDAM actually just post something interesting? (shakes head rapidly) (wanders off to get meds adjusted) nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >> http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= >> 19 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >WTF??? Did SADDAM actually just post something interesting? Full moon out tonight? :) >(shakes head rapidly) > >(wanders off to get meds adjusted) (wnaders off to get another beer) V ery I rritating A ddition T o O nline L andtravel O pinion G roups I ncluding S ome T trolling > >http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= > > 19 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel Hey, Nate. Engineers should not read this. Let the poor boy have his dreams. Does the term "vapor-ware" come to mind? KH >>>http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= >>>19 [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Engineers should not read this. Let the poor boy have his dreams. Does > the term "vapor-ware" come to mind? KH Sure it is, but it actually hangs together better than the all-electric solution. You can always pump up the pressure in an air tank (albeit a very thick walled one, to avoid it becoming a bomb,) and it fills quickly, unlike batteries. Obviously if it really were competitive with gasoline engines *currently* we'd already know about it... nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > >http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html?series= > > 19 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel Saddam just suckered into one of the longest running scams on the net. The MDI car has been "about to be in production" for at least 10 years. 10 years ago they reported that factories were being built at that time to produce it in S America, Africa, etc. Oddly, the only proof of its existance was one picture of a factory, supposedly in France, that noone could find an address for and had obviously never been occupied. They have also posted pictures of the supposed prototypes that were so fake it was pathetic, obvious model cars. Anyone who understands even a bit of physics instantly knows you cannot compress enough air into a mobil tank of those dimensions to get any useable range. They also claimed that you could pump it up at home. Oh really? Homes have compressors that will do a thousand pounds or more? Not in this life. You can check some of the kookism that has gone in past by searching on "the amazing air car" An idiot who went by the nym 'news' used to show up posting nonsense every time it was mentioned. Harry K |
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