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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / March 2008My Dream Car
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2815958998512885104 :)  Signature"Dave's not here, man!" - Tommy Chong > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2815958998512885104 > > :) And the POS will probably be in the shop at least monthly. BMWs are the ultimate proof that you don't have to be intelligent to make a lot of money. My SO's son used to own one. While waiting to pick her off when she was dropping it off for service, I was amazed by the number being brought in for service. It took three guys working at full speed to just move them out of the way. And that is not including the ones coming in on flat beds. After that exhibition I knew I would never ever own an "Ultimate Money Sucking Machine." Ed >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2815958998512885104 >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ed If you've ever read the BMW service requirements in the owner's manual, it's pretty much what you *should* do to any car in order to make it last forever, but nobody ever does. If you maintain a BMW "by the book" yes it will cost some $$$ but it should last for decades. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > >>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2815958998512885104 > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > nate That's exactly right. The schedules are a "must", not a "should". People who are German car enthusiasts know that the maint. req. are higher than with other makes. But the funny thing is this - if you keep up on those things, and take care of little stuff when you see a hassle (like a ripped CV boot, for example), the cars will last for- freakin'-ever. For example, my Audis use a special hydraulic fluid for the power steering/brake booster system. It's a synthetic, and it's about $25/liter. Pentosin is the brand, IIRC. Folks who use something else will be amazed at how much money they will spend replacing hydraulic system parts. What happens is that they don't connect the "put this money-saving fluid in" with "that stuff ate my seals" expense, and exclaim loudly how unreliable and expensive the machines are. Funny, by keeping up on the maintenance and replacing wear items at their proper intervals, I get my Audis to go well over 200k miles with no major expenses. My boss, who owns BMWs, is the same way. His BMWs go forever as well. Strange how we seem to only get the "good" ones, while everyone else gets the "lemons". Maybe it's magic. E.P. >> >>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2815958998512885104 >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > go forever as well. Strange how we seem to only get the "good" ones, > while everyone else gets the "lemons". Maybe it's magic. So if I follow the same concepts I use to maintain my fords (using motorcraft or high quality aftermarket upgrade parts and fluids that meet ford specs) a BMW should last me into the 200K range with little to no difficulty as well? Although I do tend to go by condition on wear items rather than time intervals. > In article <b64fac25-245c-4d88-ad3f-b860075b0...@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Ed Pirrero wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > difficulty as well? Although I do tend to go by condition on wear items > rather than time intervals. I can only tell you about my experiences with VW/Audi products, and my boss' experiences with BMWs. For fluids and the like, the change interval is important. Coolant, oil, brake fluid, hydraulic fluid, gear oil, bearings lubed, etc. I agree that wear items get replaced at wear limits, and items like CV boots and worn motor mounts, suspension bushings and the like should be replaced ASAP when they wear out - and those things DO wear out. If you can get 200k out of a Ford, why not a BMW, or a Mercedes? Or an Audi or VW, for that matter? I had over 300k on my Scirocco when it got creamed by a truck. And I sold a lot of the parts off that guy. I just sold an Audi that had 250k on it. My newest Audi has over 100k, and the daily family hauler Audi has 220k on it. Is it just luck that I have had all these high-milers, and no lemons? To listen to the detractors, the answer would be "yes". The odds against having all these cars be so good would be astronomical, listening to the detractors. Yeah, if they break, they can be expensive to fix. With regular maint., they don't seem to break often. I had an electric window motor go out. And a wiper motor. Couple of fuel pumps, too. Damn fuel pump cost nearly $300. Oh, and an A/C compressor. That was spendy as well. I guess it's just magic that these cars have gone forever with recommended maint. and prompt replacement of worn parts. E.P. > And the POS will probably be in the shop at least monthly. BMWs are > the ultimate proof that you don't have to be intelligent to make a lot > of money. My SO's son used to own one. While waiting to pick her off > when she was dropping it off for service, I was amazed by the number > being brought in for service. It took three guys working at full speed > to just move them out of the way. BMW has some sort of service thing that when you buy the car practically everything is covered including wear items for a few years. People are probably bringing them in just to get the washer fluid topped off. let me check.... Found it.... http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/BMWUltimateService/Default.aspx $0 Maintenance for the first 4 years or 50,000 miles. BMW Maintenance Program: One of the most comprehensive maintenance programs in its class covering all factory-recommended maintenance, oil service and fluid service, as well as items that need replacement due to normal wear and tear - such as brake pads, brake rotors and wiper blade inserts. So basically, new wiper blades is a trip to the dealer to get 'free' ones. >> And the POS will probably be in the shop at least monthly. BMWs are >> the ultimate proof that you don't have to be intelligent to make a [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > So basically, new wiper blades is a trip to the dealer to get 'free' > ones. Even the ones on flat beds? I am sure a lot were there for the routine service that BMW includes in the price (what a bargain - for the dealers - more chances to find problems to be fixed). My SO's Sons BMW was a 740 il. In the year or so he owned it had constant electrical problems, the transmission was crap, the interior plastic had faded to a whitish hue, the radiator failed, the water pump failed, it leaked oil from multiple orifices, the rear tail lights had to be replaced because the over engineered German connectors wouldn't maintain good contact, the A/C crapped out, yada, yada, yada. Plus it sucked gas like an Excursion. Maintenance items, from oil filters to transmission fluid were hideously expensive. I suppose with tender loving care the POS might have made it to 200K miles, but who in the heck wants to waste all that money on maintaining a car. He spent more on that BMW in one year just for maintenance items than I spent on various US and Japanese cars in 5 years. And the money he spent on repair parts could have bought a 5 year old Focus (which he could have used as a spare since the BMW was constantly in need of some sort of repair or maintenance). It is my opinion that the Germans know how to make good driving comfortable cars that last about 3 years. After that they are too much trouble. In the last 20 years members of my extended family have owned one BMW, one Audi, three VWs, and one Ford Fiesta. Only the Fiesta was worth a damn. If I win the lottery, I might consider a Mercedes just to say I had one once. Ed >>> And the POS will probably be in the shop at least monthly. BMWs are >>> the ultimate proof that you don't have to be intelligent to make a [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Even the ones on flat beds? oh come on.... sure there are some broken ones. My mustang arrived at the dealership once on a flatbed after the coolant pasage in the intake manifold cracked. (it was covered by ford, known issue yaddda yadda) > I am sure a lot were there for the routine > service that BMW includes in the price (what a bargain - for the > dealers - more chances to find problems to be fixed). More chances to break things. > the rear tail > lights had to be replaced because the over engineered German > connectors wouldn't maintain good contact, This has to be made up or a case of a dealer selling 'muffler bearings'. The lamps do not have any contacts of their own. The lamps are housings and optics. The bulb plugs right into the connector on the wiring harness for every car I've ever bothered to look at. There is no reason for BMW to do things differently in this regard than every other auto maker. It makes the rest suspect IMO, not what you are saying but of the dealer working on the car. A screw driver in the radiator makes a few more dollars for them.... On Mar 6, 10:41 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote: > It is my opinion that the Germans know how to make good driving > comfortable cars that last about 3 years. After that they are too much > trouble. In the last 20 years members of my extended family have owned > one BMW, one Audi, three VWs, and one Ford Fiesta. Only the Fiesta was > worth a damn. If I win the lottery, I might consider a Mercedes just > to say I had one once. You are chock-full of sh.t, Ed. But hey, don't buy any German vehicles, if you feel that way. Those of us that know how to make them last forever will do so. And oddly, it really doesn't cost that much, if you do it right. But hey, what do I know? My 22-year-old Mercedes daily driver just keeps on going. How strange. E.P. On Mar 6, 10:41 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote: > It is my opinion that the Germans know how to make good driving > comfortable cars that last about 3 years. After that they are too [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > worth a damn. If I win the lottery, I might consider a Mercedes just > to say I had one once. > You are chock-full of sh.t, Ed. Maybe not "chock-full" but I certainly have my share. You are a fickler for maintaining your cars. Good for you. I believe most peopel don't want to ride around in 22 year old sedans Didn't I just see you post about replacing multiple fuel pumps, an A/C compressor, a window lift, and an A/C compressor on an Audi (or is it Audis)? How much did that cost you? I'll bet you spent more on those parts than I have spent on maintaining the last 20 years worth of Fords and Nissans I have owned. I once had a Audi. I loved the way it drove. It was comfortable. It was also unreliable. Who in the heck has fuse boxes melt down? VW and Audi! Who has body hardware just fall ff -VW! One Sister had a Jetta - it needed two fuel pumps in 135k miles (the hard to replace in-tank pump), the fifth gear blew out, the stupid release clutch release mechanism from hell failed, the sun roof quit working, it ate rear tires (normal I was told), the central locking system failed. My other sister had a Passat. Let's see - three window motors, leaky sun roof, one timing belt tensioner that wrecked the head when it failed, some sort of hideously expensive motor mount, door handles that just pulled off when you tried to open the door, all in less than 120k miles. My SO's daughter has a current Jetta, it eats tail lights, the dash periodically goes dead, the under hood fuse box melted down (and they had it in stock at the VW dealer and the guy told me it happens all the time), the rear suspension "squeaks" (hundreds to fix according to the VW dealer). > But hey, don't buy any German vehicles, if you feel that way. I won't. It's just my opinion that German cars are not a good choice if you are primarily interested in a good car that can be maintained at a decent price. They are (with some exception) expensive to buy and expensive to maintain. I am the last person to trust Consumer Report Survey or even JD Powers, but it is interesting that German cars are near the bottom in both organization's reliability ratings. It is a pretty big drop off from the major US and Asian manufacturers to BMW and Mercedes. > Those of us that know how to make them last forever will do so. > And oddly, it really doesn't cost that much, if you do it right. I have always maintained my cars properly. The Sister with the Passat had the dealer do everything by the book and spent thousands on maintenance and the damn thing still was an unreliable POS. She replaced the Passat with a Ford Escape. The Escape requires less maintenance and what it requires is less expensive. The Escape is 7 years old. It needed a brake booster last fall - the first significant repair. My other sister has an 11 year old Honda Civic (it replaced the Jetta). It has needed one muffler and one set of plug wires and she ignores all maintenance schedules. I think her total maintenance and repair expenses, not including tires, in the last 11 years and 160k miles is under $600 (20 or so oil changes by me, $220, one set of plug wires, $50, one muffler, $75, four air filters, $50, one brake job, $120, three or four sets of wiper blades, $50). > But hey, what > do I know? My 22-year-old Mercedes daily driver just keeps on > going. I have a 37 year old Dodge D600 truck that keeps going too. It is for sale if you need one. I've never actually worn a car out. I don't see any trick to making 200k miles with minimal maintenance (oil changes mostly). Heck my SO got 200k miles out of a Chrysler mini-van and that was with infrequent oil changes (she is not diligent about maintenance). And even then it died because she let Jiffy Lube change the transmission fluid (we both think they used the wrong fluid). The fact that German cars seem to require TLC just proves my point. > How strange. What is strange - that you managed to keep a Mercedes going? Why so? It you spend enough you can keep anything moving. But why would you want to? I'd rather have a relatively new Ford or Toyota or Honda than a 20 year old Mercedes. Your Mercedes may have been a fine car in 1986, but by today's standards it is an anachronism. I understand you have a certain amount of pride in keeping it running, but at this point it is nothing special. I suppose if you keep it going another 20 years it will become a "classic." Good luck. I'll admit I'd love to have a 40 year old Mercedes SL (not that I would pay for one, and not that I'd use it for my daily driver). To each his own. You are happy with your choices and I am happy with mine. Ed > told me it happens all the time), the rear suspension "squeaks" > (hundreds to fix according to the VW dealer). Or maybe some lube sprayed in the right spots. They aren't going to find the noisy part and lube it. They want to replace everything within 3 feet of the squeak. > the Jetta). It has needed one muffler and one set of plug wires and > she ignores all maintenance schedules. I think her total maintenance > and repair expenses, not including tires, in the last 11 years and > 160k miles is under $600 (20 or so oil changes by me, $220, one set of > plug wires, $50, one muffler, $75, four air filters, $50, one brake > job, $120, three or four sets of wiper blades, $50). Those tires must be amazing! :) >> told me it happens all the time), the rear suspension "squeaks" >> (hundreds to fix according to the VW dealer). > > Or maybe some lube sprayed in the right spots. Actually we tried that. Effective for about a day. > They aren't going to find the noisy part and lube it. They want to > replace everything within 3 feet of the squeak. Pretty much. >> the Jetta). It has needed one muffler and one set of plug wires and >> she ignores all maintenance schedules. I think her total [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Those tires must be amazing! :) OK, I didn't include the tires. However, she only needed 6 replacement tires so far (she bought whatever was cheapest in her size at Sams - last two were around $50 each. So throw in another $400 for tires. I only wish the tires for my Frontier were that cheap. On Mar 6, 1:01 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote: > On Mar 6, 10:41 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You are a fickler for maintaining your cars. Good for you. I believe > most peopel don't want to ride around in 22 year old sedans Why not? If they run well, and do what's needed, why the heck not?? > Didn't I > just see you post about replacing multiple fuel pumps, an A/C > compressor, a window lift, and an A/C compressor on an Audi (or is it > Audis)? How much did that cost you? I'll bet you spent more on those > parts than I have spent on maintaining the last 20 years worth of > Fords and Nissans I have owned. [snip tale of woe] That's the unusual repairs over 20 years of multiple Audi ownership, Ed. The rest of the money spent have been wear items. BTW, you listed the A/C compressor twice. I only replaced one. > > But hey, don't buy any German vehicles, if you feel that way. > > I won't. It's just my opinion that German cars are not a good choice Obviously, for your family, that is correct. Maybe the gods frowned on just your family, and cursed it with lemons, all the while smiling on mine, giving great, reliable and durable vehicles. Of course, that scenario seems a bit far-fetched. > if you are primarily interested in a good car that can be maintained > at a decent price. Tires, oil, brake pads, coolant, etc. cost about the same for all cars. Stuff like bushings, strut inserts, CV boots and that kind of 100+k mile stuff can be variable. > They are (with some exception) expensive to buy and > expensive to maintain. False. Have you priced used Audis? Dirt-frickin-cheap. > > Those of us that know how to make them last forever will do so. > > And oddly, it really doesn't cost that much, if you do it right. > > I have always maintained my cars properly. Obviously, *somebody* in your family isn't. Or is magically getting lemons. I have found folks blame the car when things go wrong, even if it is very obviously their own fault. > > But hey, what > > do I know? My 22-year-old Mercedes daily driver just keeps on > > going. > > I've never actually worn a car out. There comes a point in a car's life where even a small repair exceeds the car's resale value. The car is by no means "worn out", but the decision must be made over whether or not one accepts that a rear suspension bushing kit and a Saturday spent on one's back in the garage is worth the hassle. > I don't see any trick to making > 200k miles with minimal maintenance (oil changes mostly). Heck my SO [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > think they used the wrong fluid). The fact that German cars seem to > require TLC just proves my point. Uhh, you just proved MY point. You put the *proper* fluids in in the proper schedule, and the cars go a long time. The added increment from doing it a bit more often than some other makes is such a small expenditure as to be insignificant. > > How strange. > > What is strange - that you managed to keep a Mercedes going? What do you mean "managed"? You make it sound like a stuggle. Pretty much all I've done is put oil and fuel in it. > It you spend enough you can keep anything moving. That's a nice story, but doesn't have anything to do with my cars. > I'd rather have a relatively new Ford or Toyota or Honda than > a 20 year old Mercedes. Why? If the M-B is reliable and comfortable, what's the point of spending the extra money? > Your Mercedes may have been a fine car in > 1986, but by today's standards it is an anachronism. LOL. Bullshit. I runs and drives just like a modern car. It's got electric start and everything! Dude - it's a daily driver, back and forth to work. Every little electric thing works, it has all the comforts of a newer car, at a fraction of the cost. What sort of thing do I need in a car that it doesn't provide? Reliable? Check. Cheap to operate and maintain (and insure, and license)? Check. Under $2k to acquire? Check. What is it that a modern car provides that this car doesn't? I'm very seriously curious. > I understand you > have a certain amount of pride in keeping it running, but at this > point it is nothing special. Again, you are making stuff up. I've done nothing special to keep the car running. Fuel and oil. Tires too, now that I think about it. Coolant flush this coming fall, and while I'm at it, brake fluid replacement. Stuff I'd do to any car, new or old. > I suppose if you keep it going another 20 > years it will become a "classic." I don't care about that - in a few more years it'll be a nice, safe car for my daughters to learn how to drive. Your blanket statements about German vehicles are total bullshit. While I beleive your family has had bad luck with them, I'm not convinced at all that the cars are at fault. After all, I'm not throwing endless dollars down my 4 German cars. In fact, I'm saving all kinds of money not financing new cars. I could afford to throw down more. Why such a contrast? E.P. On Mar 6, 1:41 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote: > >> And the POS will probably be in the shop at least monthly. BMWs are > >> the ultimate proof that you don't have to be intelligent to make a [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > - Show quoted text - My experience has been exactly the opposite, i drove exclusively high- mileage cheap watercooled VWs for years and found them to be easy to maintain and exceptionally durable. Now I've got a Porsche 944 and findit somewhat more difficult to maintain, parts are about 4x the price, but it's just as reliable and durable. I do think that newer cars have more potential for things to go wrong because they have more fiddly electronic accessories, so I simply don't buy new cars. nate > On Mar 6, 1:41 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> > wrote: > > I do think that newer cars have more potential for things to go wrong > because they have more fiddly electronic accessories, so I simply > don't buy new cars. I think there's something to that, as well. >> And the POS will probably be in the shop at least monthly. BMWs are >> the ultimate proof that you don't have to be intelligent to make a lot [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >So basically, new wiper blades is a trip to the dealer to get 'free' >ones. "Free," in this context, means "you already paid for them in the over-inflated price of the car." TANSSAAFL. Signature"Dave's not here, man!" - Tommy Chong >>So basically, new wiper blades is a trip to the dealer to get 'free' >>ones. > > "Free," in this context, means "you already paid for them in the > over-inflated price of the car." That's why I typed 'free' instead of free ;) >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2815958998512885104 >> >> :) > >And the POS will probably be in the shop at least monthly. Actuallt, one of Alex Roy's attempts at breaking the cross-country speed record ended in failure because his M5 broke down somewhere in Oklahoma. :) >My SO's son used to own one. While waiting to pick her off >when she was dropping it off for service, I was amazed by the number >being brought in for service. It took three guys working at full speed >to just move them out of the way. And that is not including the ones >coming in on flat beds. After that exhibition I knew I would never >ever own an "Ultimate Money Sucking Machine." I like to call them "The Ultimate Breakdown Machine." My wife had a Z3 for several years. It was OK, but suffered from several recurring problems. One of them was the fuel guage. We had it replaced 3 times under warranty; once the warranty ran out, we just bit the bullet and lived with it, using the trip odometer to guesstimate the amount of fuel in the tank. :) During one of those trips to the dealership, I overheard another service advisor talking to another owner about the exact same problem. The woman asked the advisor "what's going to happen when my warranty runs out?" The service advisor's suggestion was that she purchase an extended warranty. Is it possible that there are a few annoying little design flaws that BMW leaves in their cars on purpose in order to sell extended service contracts? Nah, that's just me being cynical... :) Signature"Dave's not here, man!" - Tommy Chong > On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 10:51:37 -0500, "C. E. White" > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > BMW leaves in their cars on purpose in order to sell extended service > contracts? Nah, that's just me being cynical... :) Not limited to ANY car brand, IME. The D-C slush-boxes that would implode after 50k miles. The VW/Audi coil pack fiasco. How about the Honda slushboxes that were seriously sucky? I think that covers U.S.A., Germany and Japan. And there are others as well. Saying that somehow some maker or country is immune from design compromises that come back to bite is merely wishful thinking. E.P. Most of VW & Audi's quality problems were actually supplier issues, most notoriously the coil pack deal and also the A4 window regulators (where a critical component had an unapproved material substitution resulting in widespread failures) the reason they pissed people off is the piss poor way VWoA handled the repairs. If something like this had happened to Lexus the same failures would have been no big deal because Toyota would have quietly fixed the problems without any hassle to the owners. The regulator thing pissed be off especially, because VWoA would not reimburse dealers for fixing both windows if only one had failed, so I had to wait for my second window to fail only a couple weeks later to get them both fixed correctly... would have been more convenient for both me and the dealership and less expensive for VWoA if they'd just fixed all windows on any car that had had a regulator failure but NOOOO... nate > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 10:51:37 -0500, "C. E. White" > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > The regulator thing pissed be off especially, because VWoA would not > reimburse dealers for fixing both windows if only one had failed, so I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fixed all windows on any car that had had a regulator failure but > NOOOO... I know for a fact that the coil pack issue led them to drop, permanently, one supplier. Essentially, a death sentence for that company. And they pulled the same "won't replace until it fails" crap with those, too - but because they had a supply problem. They couldn't get the properly-specced ones from the other suppliers fast enough, so they just didn't have stock to replace all of them at the same time on any cars that came in for one dead one. Still pissed folks off... E.P. > > The regulator thing pissed be off especially, because VWoA would not > > reimburse dealers for fixing both windows if only one had failed, so I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > E.P. yup, and as I understand it, at the time they were only buying them from that one supplier, the issue was getting other suppliers to get their production lines rolling. I had some coil packs replaced on my GTI as well, but by the time I started noticing a rough idle the worst of the problem was already over and the new suppliers were able to supply them - I just dropped the car off for its oil change and mentioned that the idle was a little rougher than I remembered, when I picked it up I was told that the coil packs had been replaced. That was uneventful, the only real inconvenience I had was with the windows. Now you wanna talk about VWoA being right bastards, they never did fix the A2/Corrado heater cores... you buy a new one today, it's still the same shitty time bomb as it came from the factory with. nate |
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