Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / April 2008
Ciities choose fine revenue over traffic safety
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Charlie Wilkes - 21 Mar 2008 15:11 GMT This really is disgusting. It's the kind of story that makes me feel like I'm a sucker for obeying the law, because the system is just a goddamn racket.
Charlie
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23710970/
Last week, Dallas officials reviewed the numbers and decided that a quarter of the cameras they had installed to catch motorists running red lights were too effective. So they shut them down.
They are not alone. Faced with data showing that drivers pay attention to cameras at intersections — resulting in fewer ticketable violations and ever-shrinking revenue from fines — municipalities across the country are reconsidering red light cameras, which often work too well.
At the heart of the discussions taking place in city councils and county commissions is tension between the twin benefits that were touted when local governments began installing cameras about a decade and a half ago. Officials were promised that the cameras — which take snapshots of busy intersections, capturing the license plates of any cars that are running the light — would simultaneously save lives and generate millions of dollars in extra fines.
The first half of that equation is arguably true: A federal study found a small but measurable reduction in injuries nationwide in accidents at intersections monitored by cameras, though there was an increase in some kinds of collisions.
It is the second half of the equation that may be beginning to collapse. As drivers learn where the cameras are, they are more careful. Fewer of them run red lights. Local governments collect fewer fines.
Fewer violations = less revenue Sometimes, as in Dallas, cameras generate so little revenue that they can’t even pay for themselves.
Citywide statistics obtained by NBC affiliate KXAS-TV found that red light cameras do reduce accidents. That is a good thing.
But they do it by reducing red light violations, by as much as 29 percent from month to month at particularly busy Dallas intersections. On the face of it, that, too, is a good thing — but not, necessarily, if you rely on traffic fines to make up a healthy chunk of your budget.
Dallas lawmakers originally estimated gross revenue of $15 million from their 62 cameras this fiscal year, which ends June 30. But City Manager Mary Suhm estimated last week that the city would fall short by more than $4 million.
So last week, the city turned off about a quarter of the least profitable cameras, saying it couldn’t justify the cost of running them.
Safety benefits questioned Dallas was just following the lead of several other cities that have shut down red light cameras.
City officials in Charlotte and Fayetteville, N.C., recently turned off all of their red light cameras, concluding that a state law diverting much of the revenue they generate in fines to schools meant their general funds were actually losing money, NBC affiliate WNCN of Raleigh reported.
In Bolingbrook, Ill., meanwhile, officials ended their red light camera program after statistics showed a 40 percent drop in ticketable offenses.
Nor is money the only reason cameras have been removed. In Lubbock, Texas, the City Council shut down all its cameras last month, citing a report that showed statistically significant increases in rear-end collisions at intersections, including those with cameras.
Rear-end collisions, in fact, have been cited in numerous reports and lawsuits questioning the benefits of red light cameras. Opponents claim that the cameras actually create more hazardous conditions.
“When people know there’s a red light camera, they change their driving behavior, and they slam on their brakes trying to avoid a ticket,” said Tom McCarey, an activist for the National Motorists Association. The association, which is based in Waunakee, Wis., calls itself a 6,000- member group “dedicated to representing and protecting the rights and interests of North American motorists.”
Federal study largely inconclusive Research by the Federal Highway Administration bears out McCarey’s argument — at least, as far as it goes.
In 2005, the agency released the first systematic national study of accident rates at intersections where cameras monitor red lights, compiling projections and hard data from seven cities from Maryland to California. The report tabulated 14.9 percent more rear-end crashes than would have been expected if the intersections had no cameras, resulting in 24 percent more injuries.
“Red light cameras don’t make intersections safer. They make them more dangerous,” McCarey said. Which is true — if all you’re worried about is rear-end crashes.
But the FHA study compiled numbers on all accidents at the relevant intersections, and it found that right-angle collisions — also known as “T-bone crashes,” when a car comes across the intersection and whacks you from the side — came in 24.6 percent below projections, with 15.7 percent fewer injuries.
This is where both sides acknowledge that you can make statistics say anything you want.
Opponents of cameras highlight rear-end crashes, noting that they make up more than 71 percent of accidents at intersections. Removing the cameras would lessen the most common kind of accidents.
But advocates point out that right-angle crashes are far more dangerous, causing 64 percent of the injuries at those intersections.
“We would prefer to have minor rear-end collisions, rather than broadside collisions, which lead to serious and fatal injuries,” said Art Acevedo, chief of the Austin, Texas, police.
Small reduction in injuries cited What is clear in the study, when it is taken overall, is that red light cameras led to no real change in the number of accidents (4,059 with versus 4,063 without). But they did reduce the number of people hurt in those accidents, by just less than 5 percent (459 versus 482).
The FHA concluded that cameras provide, at best, a “modest aggregate crash-cost benefit.”
That benefit is so modest that the National Motorists Association has a standing offer of $10,000 to any community that can empirically prove that red light cameras can prevent violations and accidents better than a schedule of traffic engineering steps it recommends, which include proper signal timing, better signal design and improved intersection design.
Other opponents say that even if the cameras made driving far safer, that still doesn't justify what they call the systematic violation of drivers’ constitutional rights.
The American Civil Liberties Union joined a lawsuit brought by an Iowa man who received a ticket in the mail after his vehicle was photographed doing 49 mph in a 35-mph zone in Davenport in March 2006.
The man, Thomas Seymour, argued that he was denied due process because he couldn’t confront his accuser — an inanimate camera. The Iowa Supreme Court agreed to hear the case last week.
As early as 2001, a California Superior Court judge dismissed 250 tickets issued under San Diego’s camera program, which is administered by Lockheed Martin Corp. under a private contract. Because the evidence is not gathered by an official police agency, it is “unreliable” and “untrustworthy” and therefore inadmissible in court, the judge ruled.
But opponents contend that what is really at the heart of debates over red light cameras is profits. Some government officials, like those in Dallas, don’t dispute that.
In Springfield, Mo., officials wanted to begin ticketing motorists caught on red light cameras last June 1. But the state Legislature was considering a law that would have diverted some of the revenue to state programs.
So Springfield officials postponed issuing the tickets. Only after it became clear a few weeks later that the Legislature would not act on the bill did Springfield start sending out tickets, NBC affiliate KYTV reported. The cameras began breaking even in January.
“It’s all about the money, and it’s not just about the $100 fine,” said McCarey of the National Motorists Association. “It’s millions for the city and billions for insurers.”
Poe - 21 Mar 2008 15:58 GMT I thought the whole argument for these cameras was to improve public safety. Apparently not. So then I wonder, why not take advantage of the situation and find other means of fining lawbreakers for their misdeeds? I assume LE in various areas have their hotspots of criminal activity that just isn't high enough on radar to focus LE time and attention. Seems like this would be a good opportunity to do just that. How about identifying bars that routinely set loose drunks, and (at least) place a patrol car outside to follow those who seem impaired? That's just one example.
What a disgusting crock.
> This really is disgusting. It's the kind of story that makes me feel > like I'm a sucker for obeying the law, because the system is just a [quoted text clipped - 163 lines] > McCarey of the National Motorists Association. “It’s millions for the > city and billions for insurers.” Brent P - 21 Mar 2008 17:06 GMT >This really is disgusting. It's the kind of story that makes me feel >like I'm a sucker for obeying the law, because the system is just a >goddamn racket. It's a racket, it was a racket from the begining. Back in the 70s red light running problems were fixed with longer yellows. When camera enforcement became available the way yellow light timing was done changed and enforcement became the solution. Longer yellows are the most effective and once a city is forced to have a proper length yellow signal at a camera intersection the camera becomes a money loser.
Dallas was caught cherry picking intersections with short yellows and so was Lubbock. Other cities have outright shortened the yellows to make the cameras profitable. Then Chicago which uses short yellows almost universally just put cameras up to take advantage of the city's poor default signal timing.
charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com - 21 Mar 2008 19:30 GMT On Mar 21, 9:06 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
> In article <pan.2008.03.21.14.11...@users.easynews.com>, Charlie Wilkes wrote: > >This really is disgusting. It's the kind of story that makes me feel [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > almost universally just put cameras up to take advantage of the city's > poor default signal timing. Fascinating. What is your source of information for this?
I know it is common for small towns to post unnecessarily low speeds so they can shake down passing motorists, but I wasn't aware that large cities have made a systematic business of it.
Someone who is injured at an intersection might be able to make a file a hell of a lawsuit if they can prove the traffic lights were rigged to make violations more likely.
Charlie
Brent P - 21 Mar 2008 19:50 GMT >On Mar 21, 9:06 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Fascinating. What is your source of information for this? Mainstream news articles brought to my attention by thenewspaper.com that I've posted to r.a.d in the past.
>I know it is common for small towns to post unnecessarily low speeds >so they can shake down passing motorists, but I wasn't aware that >large cities have made a systematic business of it. The corruption and preying upon ordinary people scales upwards in a big city like everything else. But unlike the small town, the local government doesn't just prey upon travelers but the residents too.
>Someone who is injured at an intersection might be able to make a file >a hell of a lawsuit if they can prove the traffic lights were rigged >to make violations more likely. Usually cities do not 'rig' the lights. They cherry pick lights that are already timed badly. Why they were timed badly could be drift of an old mechanical timer or incompetence or a lack of review after other changes, or some reason not related to revenue. However, when it comes time to set up cameras the vendor will go around looking for the intersections that will yield the best profit. The intersections with defective timing or other problems rise to the top of that list.
Chicago has had abnormally short yellow signals for decades. It's just the way the city has always done it. RLCs have simply been put in to profit from it. This is why Chicago has so many RLCs, practically any intersection with sufficent traffic volume will be profitable.
Charlie Wilkes - 22 Mar 2008 00:07 GMT > Chicago has had abnormally short yellow signals for decades. It's just > the way the city has always done it. RLCs have simply been put in to > profit from it. This is why Chicago has so many RLCs, practically any > intersection with sufficent traffic volume will be profitable. By this logic the federal gov't should allow cigarette ads on TV again. After all, tobacco sales generate a lot of tax revenue.
Charlie
Nate Nagel - 22 Mar 2008 00:11 GMT >>Chicago has had abnormally short yellow signals for decades. It's just >>the way the city has always done it. RLCs have simply been put in to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Charlie If you spun that argument to the right people, it could happen.
nate
 Signature replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 21 Mar 2008 17:25 GMT If they need more revenue, they should raise the penalties for red light running. I have no problem with making these dangerous criminals pay thru the nose. Hit them with a $500 fine. I'm no coddler.
necromancer@ ISM - 21 Mar 2008 21:40 GMT SFB spewed:
>If they need more revenue, they should raise the penalties for red light >running. When we want your input, we'll beat it out of you.
>I have no problem with making these dangerous criminals pay thru >the nose. Hit them with a $500 fine. Easy for you to say when your car's registration isn't the same as your residence.
>I'm no coddler. What happened to putting them in jail, coddler?
OBTW, have you ever driven a car faster than the posted speed limit and have you killed anyone yet with those exposed cords of yours? -- S&DDAM admits to putting others in danger with its beater:
"Foot pumps are a joke. I had one once and since the piston only moves like 2 inches it took 50 pumps to raise the pressure by one psi. Go with the hand pumps where the piston moves around 15 inches. One of my tires has exposed cords and i have to pump it up every week. "
--Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS, 3/6/08 Ref: http://tinyurl.com/yvrmhl Msg ID: Xns9A59DDA463296riemann1850yahoocom@216.168.3.70
Ad absurdum per aspera - 21 Mar 2008 19:30 GMT > It's the kind of story that makes me feel > like I'm a sucker for obeying the law, because the system is just a > goddamn racket. Well, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. The *enforcement* may in some cases be a racket, but additional reasons to obey this particular law include not being cut out of your car and taken to the hospital after a perfectly avoidable T-bone at an intersection; and manners, since, running red lights is for people who stayed home from kindergarten the day they went over "waiting your turn."
: Back in the 70s red light running problems were fixed with longer yellows.
Well, shaving the yellow in order to increase lucrative RLC tickets is a scurrillous game to watch out for and to call bulls. on when you find it -- sort of the civic equivalent of "buying the butcher's thumb" at the meat counter. However, I can hardly get across town without seeing examples of truly blatant red-light running -- not people who couldn't stop in time for a too-short yellow, but people who bully their way through an honestly timed light that has long since gone red. The worst cases (though fortunately not the highest- energy ones) seem to occur at the left-turn arrows. Seeing 2-3 drivers who decide they're more important and in more of a hurry than everybody else is a commonplace, and the worst I've witnessed involved *7* vehicles streaming through on a long-since-red arrow... though admittedly I counted the last one's boat and trailer as an additional vehicle. Extra style points for the school bus that did it the other day, though.
My idea of a well-ordered city involves long-enough yellow lights to give plenty of time to stop, and a traffic court that errs on the side of forgiving what look like honest mistakes... and a deserved reputation for fining people who blatantly run red lights. That behavior is rude, dangerous, deliberate, and volitional and needs to be kicked to the curb.
And if somebody rear-ends a vehicle that was stopping for a red light in accordance with law, custom, and sweet reason while he was cramming on the power to *run* the light, I call that an at-fault accident that should come with a big fat citation, the better to underscore that red means "stop" and the middle pedal makes that happen.
</rant>, --Joe
Brent P - 21 Mar 2008 19:56 GMT >thumb" at the meat counter. However, I can hardly get across town >without seeing examples of truly blatant red-light running -- not >people who couldn't stop in time for a too-short yellow, but people >who bully their way through an honestly timed light that has long >since gone red. There are not enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable. They exist, but not in high enough numbers to support the cost of the RLC. Now if an RLC were about safety, this wouldn't be an issue. Safety usually has a cost associated with it. But the RLCs are not about safety which is why once an underlying problem has been corrected and the profits vanish and cameras rack up losses, cities shut the RLCs down.
Intersections that have a lot of such intentional red light running behavior usually have a severe underlying problem or is lowest common demonator to the extreme (a left turn on green arrow only signal where one can see if someone is coming from the other direction to the horizon) that once corrected will get people to obey the signal.
Ad absurdum per aspera - 21 Mar 2008 20:48 GMT > There are not enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable. They > exist, but not in high enough numbers to support the cost of the RLC. One wonders, also, what it *really* costs to run an RLC, vs. what I gather is the usual sort of operator -- a for-profit private-sector concern to which the city has outsourced some or all practical aspects of the program -- *wants* to get.
--joe
Brent P - 21 Mar 2008 21:41 GMT >> There are not enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable. They >> exist, but not in high enough numbers to support the cost of the RLC. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >concern to which the city has outsourced some or all practical aspects >of the program -- *wants* to get. Profit is defined as what it collects in fines minus what it pays the contractor and what is skimmed by other governments (state, county, etc)
Jim Yanik - 21 Mar 2008 23:58 GMT Ad absurdum per aspera <jtchew@california.com> wrote in news:043d9313-2107- 441d-9ccf-735928eadb73@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>> There are not enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable. They >> exist, but not in high enough numbers to support the cost of the RLC. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > --joe the major costs are in the installation. running them is cheap. and the people who evaluate the pix have an interest in maximizing their catch of violators,it's directly related to their profit.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Ad absurdum per aspera - 21 Mar 2008 20:54 GMT > Intersections that have a lot of such intentional red light > running behavior usually have a severe underlying problem or is > lowest common demonator to the extreme (a left turn on green arrow > only signal where one can see if someone is coming from the other > direction to the horizon) that once corrected will get people to obey Maybe in some cases, but most of the signals where I see people doing this can be seen and obeyed just dandy -- I know because I obey 'em myself on the return trip. And because I often *do* see other people obey them. The lowest common demonimator in question is behavioral... As further evidence, one or person blowing through a red light or red arrow can sometimes be reasonably explained in terms of bad traffic design or a dumb signal setup, but when 2...n do the elephant parade nose to tail through the intersection after it has turned red, against multiple lanes of traffic that has the green, it's harder to excuse on technical grounds.
Cheers, --Joe
Brent P - 21 Mar 2008 21:52 GMT >> Intersections that have a lot of such intentional red light >> running behavior usually have a severe underlying problem or is >> lowest common demonator to the extreme (a left turn on green arrow >> only signal where one can see if someone is coming from the other >> direction to the horizon) that once corrected will get people to obey
>Maybe in some cases, but most of the signals where I see people doing >this can be seen and obeyed just dandy -- I know because I obey 'em >myself on the return trip. And because I often *do* see other people >obey them. Good for you. Maybe you haven't drawn the wrong timing or you have a more of a 'follow the law even if the law is stupid' mentality than others. SO what?
> The lowest common demonimator in question is >behavioral... As further evidence, one or person blowing through a red [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >turned red, against multiple lanes of traffic that has the green, it's >harder to excuse on technical grounds. Congalining is a social issue in a society where people have no clue what the real vehicle code is but sort of do whatever it is they see other people doing. I have had numerous people lash out at me in discussions in r.a.d and elsewhere because I don't sit and wait for the congaliners. Rather my light turns green and I will go and break up the congaline. This angers a good number of people who think congalining is an acceptable behavior. I realize I am in the minority when it comes to congalining as I am often stuck behind people who enable the congaliners.
After having to stop for a congalining cop and doing a 'WTF?' gesture, the cop did a U-turn and came flying after me to yell at me about how I couldn't go on green because I couldn't see his light. The fact that my light was green while he was still in the turn lane meant his light had long expired didn't seem to sink in to the very end. This cop was driving along while talking on the cell phone when he did it too.
This isn't the first time I've had some cop try to enforce some made up rule of the road that most people believe exists (like the congalining above or any number of bicycling items) because I actually followed the written ones. These encounters all go the same way. The cop pulls me over and yells at me. I educate the cop on the law, the cop knowing that he is dealing with someone who knows more about the vehicle code than he does tells me he is the law and yells and screams some more. Cop makes threats about some bogus charge. Cop eventually backs down as I just let him huff and puff, the clue light seems to come on and he doesn't do anything to me or issues a BS warning.
Way things are going I'll probably be tased and arrested for 100% to the letter of the law vehicular bicycling that some cop thought was illegal at some point.
Ad absurdum per aspera - 21 Mar 2008 23:24 GMT > > most of the signals where I see people doing > > this can be seen and obeyed just dandy -- I know because I obey 'em > > myself on the return trip. And because I often *do* see other people > > obey them.
> Good for you. Maybe you haven't drawn the wrong timing or you have a > more of a 'follow the law even if the law is stupid' mentality than > others. SO what? If you re-read my earlier posting carefully, you'd realize I'm talking about scenarios where cars lined up a few to several deep across multiple through-lanes have the green -- and are all waiting for (or moving toward, flashing their lights at, and/or honking at) multiple red-light runners. This is not a case where the law is stupid; it's a case where the law is meant to ensure everyone gets their chance and can use it safely, and some people are right there, waiting to do exactly that, while others refuse to do them this simple courtesy.
My point in mentioning that I (and many other people) stop for these red lights is that the signals work as one would expect, and the timing and layout make it perfectly reasonable to see the red arrow in plenty of time to stop. These are intersections I travel frequently in various directions, in my own part of the city or on my commute -- not single visits or single-aspect familiarity (in 30 years of driving I *have* seen short yellows and poor sight lines, after all).
Oh, yes, it's also based also on a habit of keeping one eye on the rearview mirror, which has resulted in a few incidents of choosing an escape path and preparing to take it rightnow because the guy behind me assumed I was going to lead a conga line and had a lot of speed to scrub off in a big hurry when he realized I was silly enough to stop for the red light. Haven't had to do this yet, but the endemic red- light running means it's never too far from my mind.
> Congalining is a social issue in a society where people have no clue > what the real vehicle code is but sort of do whatever it is they see > other people doing. Red=stop is not some arcane point of the vehicle code; it is one of the stone basics. (I *will* certainly agree that people are more willing to rationalize (or even pretend to be unaware of) their bad behavior when they see others doing the same .)
> I have had numerous people lash out at me > in discussions in r.a.d and elsewhere because I don't sit and wait for > the congaliners. Just be sure you don't get bit doing it. It would be hard to explain why you entered an intersection when the way was not clear, even if you *did* have the green, should an accident result.
So go back to my earlier paragraphs, and think of my behavior (when I'm the one whose light has turned red) as breaking up a conga line before it starts, or aborting it before it goes too far.
Cheers, --Joe (seen a few accidents too, including some at these intersections)
Brent P - 21 Mar 2008 23:42 GMT >> > most of the signals where I see people doing >> > this can be seen and obeyed just dandy -- I know because I obey 'em [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> more of a 'follow the law even if the law is stupid' mentality than >> others. SO what?
>If you re-read my earlier posting carefully, you'd realize I'm >talking about scenarios where cars lined up a few to several deep [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >waiting to do exactly that, while others refuse to do them this simple >courtesy. I already replied to your congalining. There are many more forms of intentional red light running besides congalining.
>My point in mentioning that I (and many other people) stop for these >red lights is that the signals work as one would expect, and the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >not single visits or single-aspect familiarity (in 30 years of driving >I *have* seen short yellows and poor sight lines, after all). And yet you apparently continue to try to construct a reasoning for RLCs.
>Oh, yes, it's also based also on a habit of keeping one eye on the >rearview mirror, which has resulted in a few incidents of choosing an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >for the red light. Haven't had to do this yet, but the endemic red- >light running means it's never too far from my mind. I've nearly been rear ended for not congalining myself. As I stated, it is the socially accepted practice and I'm socially incorrect for not doing it. It's the unwritten vehicle code vs. the written one. Cops enforce which ever one they feel like enforcing.
>> Congalining is a social issue in a society where people have no clue >> what the real vehicle code is but sort of do whatever it is they see >> other people doing.
>Red=stop is not some arcane point of the vehicle code; it is one of >the stone basics. (I *will* certainly agree that people are more >willing to rationalize (or even pretend to be unaware of) their bad >behavior when they see others doing the same .) You are intentionally missing the point. Most people in this society go by a warm fuzzy social version of the vehicle code. This is why I have been screamed at by people because I stopped on red when the social version is to keep going. It's why I am called an a.shole for not waiting for the congaline to end when I have the green. It's the same reason that when bicycling I am subjected to all manner of abuse for daring to use the roadway. Most people do not know the actual law and don't care about it. It is in large part why there are so many 'tool' laws where we are supposed to 'trust' the government and its police forces to only use them on 'bad' people. It's all some warm-fuzzy social approach. It's why people like Martha Stewart go to jail for tiny sums and minor acts compared to others who do far worse regarding far far more money.
>> I have had numerous people lash out at me >> in discussions in r.a.d and elsewhere because I don't sit and wait for >> the congaliners.
>Just be sure you don't get bit doing it. It would be hard to >explain why you entered an intersection when the way was not clear, >even if you *did* have the green, should an accident result. My path is clear when I enter. They weren't supposed to enter and cross it. For instance:
http://blip.tv/file/748241 although she doesn't 'cross' my path.
>So go back to my earlier paragraphs, and think of my behavior (when >I'm the one whose light has turned red) as breaking up a conga line >before it starts, or aborting it before it goes too far. One vehicle can be 'too far'.
Ad absurdum per aspera - 22 Mar 2008 00:46 GMT >>> Congalining is a social issue in a society where people have no clue >>> what the real vehicle code is but sort of do whatever it is they see >>> other people doing.> >>Red=stop is not some arcane point of the vehicle code; it is one of >>the stone basics. > You are intentionally missing the point. Whoa -- I just turned the red light on, so stop, and think about that. Unless Dionne and her friends are really onto something over there at the Psychic Friends Network, you can't prove my intent even if you were right about it, which you aren't. It was a misunderstanding of the genuine sort, which you clarify thus:
> Most people in this society go > by a warm fuzzy social version of the vehicle code. No argument; there is often some gap between what the law says and what a society actually tolerates. However, what you stated was that "people have no clue what the real vehicle code is," not that the way they act upon it is fuzzy.
Either way -- if people genuinely don't understand something so clear and basic as red=stop, or if they are getting set in the bad rude habit of fuzzing that one out in their favor -- I think my next car is *sooooo* going to have side curtain air bags...
Cheers, --Joe (PS. For the record, I am not defending RLCs in any blanket sort of way; like most tools of law enforcement, they can be used well or poorly, and by people whose motives are highminded or cynical. I *will* say that blatant and often multi-car red-light running is an alarming and endemic problem where I do most of my driving, and the handful of RLCs deployed at key intersections in one of those cities have been awesome instruments of schadenfreude for the law-abiding, a small profit center for the city, and perhaps -- there is some argument about this -- a benefit to traffic safety. )
Brent P - 22 Mar 2008 00:52 GMT >> Most people in this society go >> by a warm fuzzy social version of the vehicle code.
>No argument; there is often some gap between what the law says and >what a society actually tolerates. Tolerance isn't part of it.
> However, what you stated was that >"people have no clue what the real vehicle code is," not that the way >they act upon it is fuzzy. They don't have any clue about what the real code is, they have a fuzzy social version that they follow.
>Either way -- if people genuinely don't understand something so clear >and basic as red=stop, or if they are getting set in the bad rude >habit of fuzzing that one out in their favor -- I think my next car >is *sooooo* going to have side curtain air bags... Let me list a few things other people including some cops find objectionable about my driving and bicycling:
I stop on red signals. I do not hold up people behind me to let them in and go first. I take my place in the queue at a light on a bicycle. I stop for red signals and stop signs on a bicycle. I ride on the roadway to the vehicle code with a bicycle. I consider pulling out in front of me and forcing me to brake or avoid to be rude.
>(PS. For the record, I am not defending RLCs in any blanket sort of >way; like most tools of law enforcement, they can be used well or >poorly, RLC's cannot be used well, period. Even on a perfect intersection there are many possible problems and abuses.
> and by people whose motives are highminded or cynical. I >*will* say that blatant and often multi-car red-light running is an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >small profit center for the city, and perhaps -- there is some >argument about this -- a benefit to traffic safety. ) The red light running problem is a creation for profit. There was no red light running problem with the prior non-enforcement methods. Methods scrapped for the sake of cameras. See the congressional report on RLCs.
Jim Yanik - 22 Mar 2008 04:55 GMT Ad absurdum per aspera <jtchew@california.com> wrote in news:757debfd-c65e- 4700-b8f8-01e5ddcdde69@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
>>>> Congalining is a social issue in a society where people have no clue >>>> what the real vehicle code is but sort of do whatever it is they see [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > have been awesome instruments of schadenfreude for the law-abiding, a > small profit center for the city, a SMALL profit center? Every article I've read about RLC cameras where they mention revenue,it's a very LARGE amount of revenue they bring in. So profitable,they plan to install even MORE RLCs.
> and perhaps -- there is some > argument about this -- a benefit to traffic safety. ) Congalining -may- be a case of the following drivers so intently focused on the car in front of them that they don't look at the signal and see it's changed. But that's no excuse. Here in Orlando,I'm positive that much of the RLrunning IS intentional;a matter of "I'm just gonna go thru it".
#2 cause is cellphone use,by my observations.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Jim Yanik - 22 Mar 2008 00:00 GMT Ad absurdum per aspera <jtchew@california.com> wrote in news:fdad0a93-47a1- 4876-9995-9c8732b81df5@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
>> Intersections that have a lot of such intentional red light >> running behavior usually have a severe underlying problem or is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Cheers, > --Joe I wonder if a RLC can actually catch a multiple-car string of RLrunners? It's entirely possible that all the cars except the last have their plates blocked from camera view by the car behind them.
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Ad absurdum per aspera - 22 Mar 2008 00:22 GMT > I wonder if a RLC can actually catch a multiple-car string of RLrunners? > It's entirely possible that all the cars except the last have their plates > blocked from camera view by the car behind them. Depends a lot on the camera angle(s) and the distance between cars. However, the last would be the most blatant offender with the weakest excuse...
Usually I see 2, or 1, or, often enough to almost restore my faith in humanity, 0 red-arrow runners. Sometimes, though, there's a whole string of 3 or more... or one who's *quite* later than the other(s) if any and had been using the left-turn lane like a runway.
Those are the scary ones, with all the speed they're carrying through the intersection and the increased likelihood that the drivers who have the green light didn't see him, or assumed he'd stop, and are already entering the intersection.
: I can honestly say that I very rarely see that kind of behavior. There
: are lots of things to fault about drivers around here; actually they : suck in almost all respects. But obvious intentional RLRing is not one
: of them. I'm glad to see that some people haven't noticed this habit where they live -- alas, it's noticeable in one of the cities where I drive a lot and an endemic pestilence in the other, to the point where, as I said elsewhere, you get in the habit of watching your mirror as you stop and checking explicitly for red-light runners before you go.
--Joe
Jim Yanik - 22 Mar 2008 04:46 GMT >> I wonder if a RLC can actually catch a multiple-car string of >> RLrunners? It's entirely possible that all the cars except the last [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > --Joe Orlando,FL has the same problem;2 or more Left turners often run a red light,and many intersections have 1 RLrunner straight thru. (often from BEHIND me as I'm stopping!) But police only enforce at a few major intersections perhaps 3 times a year.IOW,virtually NO enforcement whatever. THAT is why people run RLs. IMO,the police need to have their radar and laser speed guns taken away. That's why enforcement of other,more dangerous moving violations have fallen to nothing.All the police enforcement goes to *stationary* speed traps.(because of the revenue.)
OTOH,I've been rear-ended three times here in Orlando. When they install the RLCs,I expect it to get worse.
I wonder if I can rig a 10-15 MPH rear bumper on a 03 Sentra???
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
gpsman - 22 Mar 2008 06:09 GMT On Mar 21, 2:56 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote:
> In article <a3a2a62c-0138-4257-a6c9-e25cb2a3b...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, Ad absurdum per aspera wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > There are not enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable. You seem very "knowledgeable".
How many of "these people" are there?
> They > exist, but not in high enough numbers to support the cost of the RLC. Hm. I wonder why RLC suppliers haven't gone tits up, and why Dallas found only 25% of their RLCs weren't supporting themselves?
> Now if an RLC were about safety, this wouldn't be an issue. Safety > usually has a cost associated with it. But the RLCs are not about safety > which is why once an underlying problem has been corrected and the > profits vanish and cameras rack up losses, cities shut the RLCs down. Wow. What were the underlying problems in Dallas, and how were they corrected?
> Intersections that have a lot of such intentional red light > running behavior usually have a severe underlying problem Which underlying problem could cause a lot of drivers to run a red light intentionally?
And how could a lot of drivers intentionally run red lights when "there aren't enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable"? Same few of "these people" intentionally run a lot of red lights... and/or the fines are just too low?
> or is > lowest common demonator to the extreme (a left turn on green arrow > only signal where one can see if someone is coming from the other > direction to the horizon) that once corrected will get people to obey > the signal. How does being able to see if someone is coming all the way to the horizon present a problem to someone waiting to make a L on the arrow... and how is that usually corrected? -----
- gpsman
Nate Nagel - 22 Mar 2008 12:55 GMT > On Mar 21, 2:56 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > - gpsman Gawd you're an idiot. We discussed over a week ago how Dallas was forced to lengthen the yellows because they were found to be too short. Do try to keep up, or just f.ck off and die.
nate
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gpsman - 22 Mar 2008 17:04 GMT > > On Mar 21, 2:56 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Gawd you're an idiot. Forgive me, I forgot.
> We discussed over a week ago how Dallas was > forced to lengthen the yellows because they were found to be too short. IIRC, 7 of the 10 most successful cameras, of 62 total cameras, were found to have yellows too short by 0.35 seconds.
And, IIRC, RLCs were installed at Dallas intersections where short yellows were less than the recommended minimum, but were so pre-RLC, so it's hard to understand how most drivers could be "surprised" by their duration.
> Do try to keep up, or just f.ck off and die. I'm trying, but it would be easier if I had the benefit of all the data Brent, and it seems you, possess.
If "underlying problem" means "yellow of insufficient duration", why not call it exactly that?
And I still need to know: How many of "these people" there are; Why RLC suppliers haven't gone tits up; Why Dallas found only 25% of their RLCs weren't supporting themselves (and plan to install more); Which underlying problem could cause a lot of drivers to run a red light intentionally; How could a lot of drivers intentionally run red lights when "there aren't enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable", and how does being able to see if someone is coming all the way to the horizon present a problem to someone waiting to make a L on the arrow... and how is that usually corrected?
TIA. -----
- gpsman
Nate Nagel - 22 Mar 2008 17:11 GMT >>>On Mar 21, 2:56 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) >>>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > If "underlying problem" means "yellow of insufficient duration", why > not call it exactly that? Did you read the article? It's right in there and doesn't even require the Herculean effort of doing a Google search or clicking a link.
> And I still need to know: How many of "these people" there are; which people?
> Why > RLC suppliers haven't gone tits up; Because short yellows and RLCs go hand in hand like rubber and asphalt.
> Why Dallas found only 25% of their > RLCs weren't supporting themselves (and plan to install more); see above.
> Which > underlying problem could cause a lot of drivers to run a red light > intentionally; Who said it had to be *intentional?* The most common cause of RLRing is a driver misjudging the yellow interval due to it being unreasonably short for the travel speed of the road.
> How could a lot of drivers intentionally run red lights > when "there aren't enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable", > and how does being able to see if someone is coming all the way to the > horizon present a problem to someone waiting to make a L on the > arrow... and how is that usually corrected? You're going to have to post something a little more coherent, sensible, and intelligent if you ever hope to break out of the "resident troll or idiot, we can't figure out which and don't care" pigeonhole you've taken up residence in. Seriously, haven't you figured out yet that you post consistent stupidity, and that's why people don't bother to type out more lengthy, reasoned replies to your posts?
nate
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gpsman - 22 Mar 2008 21:42 GMT > >>>On Mar 21, 2:56 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) > >>>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > >>>>There are not enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable. **These people**.
> >>>You seem very "knowledgeable". > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > Did you read the article? It's right in there and doesn't even require > the Herculean effort of doing a Google search or clicking a link. I was confused by the implication that "underlying problems" are those other than "yellows of insufficient duration".
> > And I still need to know: How many of "these people" there are; > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Because short yellows and RLCs go hand in hand like rubber and asphalt. I guess, if you consider yellows that were short to begin with some kind of conspiracy, and/or think that because some yellows were shortened, they all were, even though the information presented doesn't say or suggest that.
> > Why Dallas found only 25% of their > > RLCs weren't supporting themselves (and plan to install more); > > see above. Uh huh.
> > Which > > underlying problem could cause a lot of drivers to run a red light > > intentionally; > > Who said it had to be *intentional?* Brent. It's a quote, in my first response to his nonsensical ravings.
> The most common cause of RLRing is > a driver misjudging the yellow interval due to it being unreasonably > short for the travel speed of the road. Really? How many lights across the US are thus timed? How many, and what percentage of drivers manage to not run them? How many drivers run how many red lights that are combined with adequate durations of yellow?
> > How could a lot of drivers intentionally run red lights > > when "there aren't enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable", [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > idiot, we can't figure out which and don't care" pigeonhole you've taken > up residence in. uh... that's a Brent quote, again.
> Seriously, haven't you figured out yet that you post > consistent stupidity, and that's why people don't bother to type out > more lengthy, reasoned replies to your posts? I think you might reread my inquires to find each quoted Brent's assertions. You might then reconsider who is stupid, and why when he posts the identical words and phrases you find it genius, and when I quote him, it's "constant stupidity".
I think Occam's Razor most strongly suggests that you and Brent are stupid.
But, hey, that's just me. -----
- gpsman
Nate Nagel - 22 Mar 2008 21:51 GMT >>>>>On Mar 21, 2:56 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) >>>>>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > I was confused by the implication that "underlying problems" are those > other than "yellows of insufficient duration". Apparently.
>>>And I still need to know: How many of "these people" there are; >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > shortened, they all were, even though the information presented > doesn't say or suggest that. I don't know if it's a conspiracy, laziness, or what, although I do think that it ought to be written into law that a RLC may not be installed at any intersection that doesn't have a yellow interval *verified* to be in compliance with ITE/MUTCD guidelines.
Note also that the guidelines have been rewritten over the years to make the allowable yellow interval shorter, by referencing "speed limit" rather than "travel speed." That does smack a little of conspiracy to make RLCs more profitable.
>>>Why Dallas found only 25% of their >>>RLCs weren't supporting themselves (and plan to install more); [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Brent. It's a quote, in my first response to his nonsensical ravings. He did? I'm thinking that he was implying that with a properly timed yellow the vast majority of people "caught" by the camera would either be intentionally running the light or inattentive. Which, if you think about it, is exactly as it should be.
>>The most common cause of RLRing is >>a driver misjudging the yellow interval due to it being unreasonably >>short for the travel speed of the road. > > Really? How many lights across the US are thus timed? I'm curious to know the answer to that question myself, but obviously timing yellow lights is not a high priority for anyone.
> How many, and > what percentage of drivers manage to not run them? How many drivers > run how many red lights that are combined with adequate durations of > yellow? Very, very few. Remember the Virginia study? Correct light timing all but eliminates RLRing in most instances. This is why RLC's can't be profitable when they're correctly implemented.
>>>How could a lot of drivers intentionally run red lights >>>when "there aren't enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable", [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > uh... that's a Brent quote, again. Well, you're the one who managed to post a whole paragraph that made my head hurt when I actually tried to figure out what you were asking.
>>Seriously, haven't you figured out yet that you post >>consistent stupidity, and that's why people don't bother to type out [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > posts the identical words and phrases you find it genius, and when I > quote him, it's "constant stupidity". I think it's probably your constant misinterpretations or deliberate twisting of same.
> I think Occam's Razor most strongly suggests that you and Brent are > stupid. > > But, hey, that's just me. Yes, it probably is just you.
nate
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Ed Pirrero - 22 Mar 2008 21:57 GMT > > I think Occam's Razor most strongly suggests that you and Brent are > > stupid. > > > But, hey, that's just me. > > Yes, it probably is just you. Bravo! Well-played, sir.
E.P.
gpsman - 22 Mar 2008 22:05 GMT > >>>>>On Mar 21, 2:56 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) > >>>>>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] > > Very, very few. That's not a number, you numbskull.
When you assert "The most common cause of RLRing is a driver misjudging the yellow interval due to it being unreasonably short for the travel speed of the road", you better have some f.cking stats to back it up.
Including the "travel speed of the road". If I'm traveling 50 in a 35, may I be forgiven for running a RL, because the yellow was too short?
> Remember the Virginia study? Correct light timing all > but eliminates RLRing in most instances. This is why RLC's can't be > profitable when they're correctly implemented. Yeah, you better read your study again, and look up the definition of "eliminates", and consider that both the expense of RLCs and the fine imposed for violation also factor into whether a RLC is "profitable when correctly implemented".
> > I think Occam's Razor most strongly suggests that you and Brent are > > stupid. > > > But, hey, that's just me. > > Yes, it probably is just you. It's for sure "not your fault" due to your reading comprehension difficulties though, I'm sure you're sure of that. -----
- gpsman
Nate Nagel - 23 Mar 2008 00:51 GMT >>>>>>>On Mar 21, 2:56 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) >>>>>>>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 148 lines] > the travel speed of the road", you better have some f.cking stats to > back it up. And I do, and I referred to them in my last post. The Virginia study showed that extending the yellow interval at "problem" intersections reduced RLRing by OVER 90 PERCENT. This tells me that over 90 percent of the RLRers when the light was timed too short were not intentionally blowing the light, nor were they inattentive, they simply entered after the light turned red because they didn't expect it to turn red so soon.
> Including the "travel speed of the road". If I'm traveling 50 in a > 35, may I be forgiven for running a RL, because the yellow was too > short? It's a dirty trick if the 85th percentile speed is greater than 50 MPH but the road is signed 35.
>>Remember the Virginia study? Correct light timing all >>but eliminates RLRing in most instances. This is why RLC's can't be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > imposed for violation also factor into whether a RLC is "profitable > when correctly implemented". I think >90% is "all but eliminates."
>>>I think Occam's Razor most strongly suggests that you and Brent are >>>stupid. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's for sure "not your fault" due to your reading comprehension > difficulties though, I'm sure you're sure of that. I'm not the one that has reading comprehension difficulties, obviously.
It is odd that the one thing you manage to do is accuse others of having shortcomings that you display in abundance, clearly without even noticing it. It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
nate
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Garth Almgren - 23 Mar 2008 02:13 GMT >>>> I think Occam's Razor most strongly suggests that you and Brent are >>>> stupid. >>> >>>> But, hey, that's just me. >>> >>> Yes, it probably is just you. No "probably" about it...
>> It's for sure "not your fault" due to your reading comprehension >> difficulties though, I'm sure you're sure of that. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > shortcomings that you display in abundance, clearly without even > noticing it. It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Be fair Nate: It's quite possible for him to be both pathetic and funny at the same time. In fact, GPSTroll demonstrates a strong aptitude for it IMO.
 Signature ~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie. Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave. ******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant." --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
Brent P - 23 Mar 2008 04:11 GMT >And I do, and I referred to them in my last post. The Virginia study >showed that extending the yellow interval at "problem" intersections >reduced RLRing by OVER 90 PERCENT. This tells me that over 90 percent >of the RLRers when the light was timed too short were not intentionally >blowing the light, nor were they inattentive, they simply entered after >the light turned red because they didn't expect it to turn red so soon. It doesn't matter how many studies there are, how much evidence there is that RLCs don't work and make conditions more dangerous. The TV tells these people the RLCs are for safety over and over and over again so that's what they believe.
Brent P - 23 Mar 2008 04:09 GMT >>>>How could a lot of drivers intentionally run red lights >>>>when "there aren't enough of these people to keep an RLC profitable", >>>>and how does being able to see if someone is coming all the way to the >>>>horizon present a problem to someone waiting to make a L on the >>>>arrow... and how is that usually corrected?
>>>You're going to have to post something a little more coherent, sensible, >>>and intelligent if you ever hope to break out of the "resident troll or >>>idiot, we can't figure out which and don't care" pigeonhole you've taken >>>up residence in. >> >> uh... that's a Brent quote, again.
>Well, you're the one who managed to post a whole paragraph that made my >head hurt when I actually tried to figure out what you were asking. He takes a part of a line out of one of my posts, constructs his own bizzaro-world misunderstanding around it, then says the whole thing is my doing... lol.
>> I think you might reread my inquires to find each quoted Brent's >> assertions. You might then reconsider who is stupid, and why when he [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I think it's probably your constant misinterpretations or deliberate >twisting of same. That's exactly what he is doing. It's what he always does.
Jim Yanik - 21 Mar 2008 23:55 GMT Ad absurdum per aspera <jtchew@california.com> wrote in news:a3a2a62c-0138- 4257-a6c9-e25cb2a3b0ab@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
>> It's the kind of story that makes me feel >> like I'm a sucker for obeying the law, because the system is just a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > who bully their way through an honestly timed light that has long > since gone red. And police are perfectly capable of catching them and writing them REAL tickets that have points and that OTHERS can see the law being enforced,which WILL affect their behavior. The violators get their ticket ON THE SPOT,and not weeks later. All that has a big impact on RLrunning.
> The worst cases (though fortunately not the highest- > energy ones) seem to occur at the left-turn arrows. Seeing 2-3 [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > underscore that red means "stop" and the middle pedal makes that > happen. that STILL doesn't do you,your neck,or your car any good. Once a car is damaged,it's never the same as it was originally. (The same goes for your body.)
 Signature Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
Nate Nagel - 22 Mar 2008 00:04 GMT >>It's the kind of story that makes me feel >>like I'm a sucker for obeying the law, because the system is just a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > who bully their way through an honestly timed light that has long > since gone red. I can honestly say that I very rarely see that kind of behavior. There are lots of things to fault about drivers around here; actually they suck in almost all respects. But obvious intentional RLRing is not one of them. And yet RLCs are such a big deal around here...
nate
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Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS - 23 Mar 2008 05:01 GMT Ad absurdum per aspera <jtchew@california.com> wrote in news:a3a2a62c-0138- 4257-a6c9-e25cb2a3b0ab@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
> And if somebody rear-ends a vehicle that was stopping for a red light > in accordance with law, custom, and sweet reason while he was > cramming on the power to *run* the light, I call that an at-fault > accident that should come with a big fat citation, the better to > underscore that red means "stop" and the middle pedal makes that > happen. That's what i say. Red light runners who rear-end law-abiding citizens should do years of prison time.
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim - 05 Apr 2008 13:54 GMT > This really is disgusting. It's the kind of story that makes me feel > like I'm a sucker for obeying the law, because the system is just a > goddamn racket. of course, this has been the case for f.cking years, it is time to start killing cops, bombing government buildings, etc., etc.
death to the nited states government
if it was all about "safety", then you would get points on your license and nothing else, but it's all about the money.
why do you think they let you plead to a lesser charge, especially if you're willing to pay a higher fine?
it is time to kill and destroy the united states government
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