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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Driving / May 2008Ford circles the drain
http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/companies/ford/?postversion=2008052214 Ford's trouble: $4 gas is here to stay Gas prices are causing consumers to shun pickups and SUVs, leading to losses at the car maker's North American auto unit. By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer Last Updated: May 22, 2008: 2:40 PM EDT NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Ford Motor Co. executives say they believe that $4 gas is here to stay, resulting in a fundamental consumer shift away from gas-guzzling SUVs and pickups and causing continued losses at its core North American auto unit. The company said it expects gas prices to remain in the range of $3.75 to $4.25 a gallon through the end of 2009. And that expectation prompted the nation's No. 3 automaker to announce deep production cuts for what has been its best selling and most profitable vehicles for several decades and could lead to more plant closings and job cuts down the road. -- "Ford now believes that the change in vehicle choice is structural, not cyclical", Mulally said. -- Nothing gets by you, does it, Sparky? ----- - gpsman > http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/companies/ford/?postversion=2008... > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - gpsman Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer simply by importing their European and Australian products. (someone once said, I forget who, that the best damn American cars are made in Austraila - and it's true.) I'm not entirely certain why they seem to think that the average American consumer wants to either drive a slow, boring econobox; a slow, boring luxury car; or a slow, boring SUV. Of course, that may actually be true. Lord knows that with few exceptions my own personal automotive choices are not shared by many people (although there's a dead ringer for my 944 floating around town.) nate > Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer > simply by importing their European and Australian products. I just argued that in another thread ;) The problem is that when they've done it experimentally, they flub it for one reason or the other. Most often a combination of ruining the car and/or poor marketing. Then the next time it is suggested they point at the screw up and say it cannot possibly work. > (someone > once said, I forget who, that the best damn American cars are made in > Austraila - and it's true.) I've been saying that the best american cars are made in austraila for about a decade now... not in those exact words though :) Something along the lines if you want a real american car you have to go to Austraila. > I'm not entirely certain why they seem to > think that the average American consumer wants to either drive a slow, > boring econobox; a slow, boring luxury car; or a slow, boring SUV. Because that's all that can make it through design by committee :) At least they aren't french cars... http://www.rockauto.com/Newsletter/archives/5808.htm (scroll to the bottom) >>Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer >>simply by importing their European and Australian products. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > http://www.rockauto.com/Newsletter/archives/5808.htm > (scroll to the bottom) The sad thing is, a late 80's/early 90's FWD Olds with a 3800 is probably one of the better contemporary American cars, and probably is more economical to run and more reliable than a lot of newer models. It's a car only my grandmother could love (well, actually, hers is a Buick Century...) nate  Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > > Because that's all that can make it through design by committee :) _Car: A Drama of the American Workplace_ by Mary Walton is quite the fly-on-the-wall look at that sort of thing. > Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer > simply by importing their European and Australian products. GM has started. Graham On May 23, 9:20 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer > > simply by importing their European and Australian products. > > GM has started. > > Graham On a very small scale, the only current model that I'm aware of is the Pontiac G8. The late Pontiac GTO was pretty much a 2-door version of the same car. But, of course, the G8 is pretty much exactly what we'd be building right here today if GM had let the old A-body design evolve and modernize rather than completely freaking out in the 70's and 80's and retooling for non-traditional FWD cars. The downside is, of course, that while competent and appealing it is still a large-ish V-8 powered sedan, which is probably not what the market's going to be wanting for the next few years. nate > But, of course, the G8 is pretty much exactly what we'd be building > right here today if GM had let the old A-body design evolve and > modernize rather than completely freaking out in the 70's and 80's and > retooling for non-traditional FWD cars. Thank CAFE. Government deciding what the market should want. > The downside is, of course, > that while competent and appealing it is still a large-ish V-8 powered > sedan, which is probably not what the market's going to be wanting for > the next few years. I don't know about the holdens but the inline 6 fords get good fuel economy last I looked at them. > > > Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer > > > simply by importing their European and Australian products. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Pontiac G8. The late Pontiac GTO was pretty much a 2-door version of > the same car. The Saturn Astra is simply an Opel Astra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Astra I recall you're supposed to be getting the Vectra too. That's the Saturn Aura. And you used to get a 'Pontiac' GTO made by Holden. I have no idea why they dropped that model. Oh and the old Chevy Cavalier was basically an Opel Ascona. Going way back, Europe, the USA and Australia all had the Chevette too. Unfortunately the US predilection for larger engines and auto boxes makes the mpg figures drop somewhat. e.g. the Vectra is available in Europe with a 1.8 litre petrol engine (or a 1.9 litre turbo diesel for added economy) but the base Aura engine is 2.4 litres and no diesel is offered. Max engine size is 3.0 l vs 3.5 l. Graham On May 23, 11:46 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Ford and GM could present lots more appealing products to the consumer > > > > simply by importing their European and Australian products. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > dropped that model. Oh and the old Chevy Cavalier was basically an Opel > Ascona. I was referring simply to Australian models, as they reflect the traditional American car better than do current American or European models. I believe the new Malibu (which is what GM is hanging a lot of its hopes on) is at least Vectra-based. I've heard it's actually decent, but I haven't had the opportunity to drive one yet. There is one coworker that's gotten one of the new ones; I'm hoping I get a chance to try it soon. I don't know about the Cavalier, but it was always a POS anyway. > Going way back, Europe, the USA and Australia all had the Chevette too. Yes, and the Ford Capri was imported here briefly before it became the Mercury Capri as basically a hatchback Mustang with a weird back glass. we also got the Merkur (Ford) XR4Ti which was basically a German Ford with a turbo'd Pinto engine under the hood - actually a decent car but left to die on the vine. Likewise with the Scorpio (although I dont' know how decent that actually was, as so few were sold) and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few others. Also the Mondeo-based cars which were far better than contemporary Ford offerings - they were actually built in the US and were simply based on a Euro design not imported (as I'm assuming the Vectra-based cars are for GM) but even so they were basically unmarketed and unloved for some reason. > Unfortunately the US predilection for larger engines and auto boxes makes the > mpg figures drop somewhat. > > e.g. the Vectra is available in Europe with a 1.8 litre petrol engine (or a > 1.9 litre turbo diesel for added economy) but the base Aura engine is 2.4 > litres and no diesel is offered. Max engine size is 3.0 l vs 3.5 l. US safety regs don't help any, either. Not *all* American drivers insist on slushboxes, although I do have to confess a fondness for large engines. nate This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain... http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/car/688550299.html They have a car that people actually want to buy. So what does ford do? they limit production and then dealerships sell it for ~20 grand above sticker. > This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they limit production and then dealerships sell it for ~20 grand > above sticker. It won't actually save the company though will it, nice as it may be. Graham >> This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It won't actually save the company though will it, nice as it may be. No, but it's an example of the mentality of the company. On May 23, 1:54 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > No, but it's an example of the mentality of the company. In their defense, they may be artificially limiting production for CAFE reasons, and the dealer markup is a natural consequence of supply and demand. nate > On May 23, 1:54 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > CAFE reasons, and the dealer markup is a natural consequence of supply > and demand. It's off their CAFE calculation, ford just charges the gas guzzler tax to the buyer. On May 23, 2:42 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On May 23, 1:54 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > It's off their CAFE calculation, ford just charges the gas guzzler tax > to the buyer. I wasn't aware that paying the gas guzzler tax excluded a vehicle from CAFE calculations, and it would stand to reason that it wouldn't. I'm having a hard time finding a citation one way or another. nate >> It's off their CAFE calculation, ford just charges the gas guzzler tax >> to the buyer. > > I wasn't aware that paying the gas guzzler tax excluded a vehicle from > CAFE calculations, and it would stand to reason that it wouldn't. I'm > having a hard time finding a citation one way or another. It was part of a topic of debate here some time ago. I thought that was conclusion. Perhaps I mis-remembered something. I can't find it now and I am sifting through title 49. Maybe it was the tax for an entire manufacturer's product line to just not bother with CAFE at all. I can find where they can neglect 'emergency vehicles'. Guess the government doesn't have to have their vehicles downsized. Reading the code shows a lot of power in the hands of the secretary (of transportation) to make things whichever way. I'll have to go with mis-remembering it until something else turns up otherwise. On May 23, 3:42 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> It's off their CAFE calculation, ford just charges the gas guzzler tax > >> to the buyer. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > transportation) to make things whichever way. I'll have to go with > mis-remembering it until something else turns up otherwise. I'm not saying you're misremembering, I'm saying that I don't remember reading that before. There's lots of stuff I don't know, the problem is that I don't know that I don't know it :) nate > On May 23, 3:42 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > reading that before. There's lots of stuff I don't know, the problem > is that I don't know that I don't know it :) The law is so convoluted that there may be a way out because they call it a "Shelby"... It probably is counting against their CAFE, but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci. > but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci. You mean Focuses ? They're VERY WELL considered cars here in Europe. Possibly one of Ford's best ever along with the Mondeo. Ford CAN make good cars. It's just a shame the plastic trim always falls off after about 6 months ! I can't believe it would take rocket science to fix that. Graham >> but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci. > > You mean Focuses ? No sense of humor? > They're VERY WELL considered cars here in Europe. Possibly one of Ford's best > ever along with the Mondeo. The assembly plant in mexico initially hurt the focus name here, I think people have gotten over it. > Ford CAN make good cars. It's just a shame the plastic trim always falls off > after about 6 months ! I can't believe it would take rocket science to fix that. My fords are 35 and 11 years old, neither has had trim 'fall off'. >>> but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci. >> You mean Focuses ? > No sense of humor? You mean humour? ;) >> but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci. > >You mean Focuses ? I mean Focusen. Signature"Dave's not here, man!" - Tommy Chong > >> but it can't be that hard to sell a few extra foci. > > > >You mean Focuses ? > > I mean Focusen. LOL Mein Herr ! (or should that be meinen ? ) Graham > >> This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain... > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > No, but it's an example of the mentality of the company. They do seem to be rather lost. I wonder where they get the clowns to run big corporations these days. Certainly none of them seem to have any vision. Graham >This is a big part of why ford is circling the drain... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >they limit production and then dealerships sell it for ~20 grand >above sticker. Well... it gets 12 mpg. How many can they sell without screwing up their CAFE? > On May 23, 9:20 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Pontiac G8. The late Pontiac GTO was pretty much a 2-door version of > the same car. Well, the Saturn Astra is a rebadged Opel, and the Aura looks a lot like a Vectra. > But, of course, the G8 is pretty much exactly what we'd be building > right here today if GM had let the old A-body design evolve and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sedan, which is probably not what the market's going to be wanting for > the next few years. That would depend on how the "ethanol project" is working out... Of course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel economy. > nate Ulf > > On May 23, 9:20 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Well, the Saturn Astra is a rebadged Opel, and the Aura looks a lot like > a Vectra. see my last post, I was referring to Australian models. > > But, of course, the G8 is pretty much exactly what we'd be building > > right here today if GM had let the old A-body design evolve and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > That would depend on how the "ethanol project" is working out... It won't. > Of > course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel > economy. If there were any; the only one I'm aware of is the Cummins truck engine, which isn't exactly "modern." And an I-6 is best packaged in a RWD car, of which we have few choices. nate > > Of course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel > > economy. > > If there were any; the only one I'm aware of is the Cummins truck > engine, which isn't exactly "modern." And an I-6 is best packaged in > a RWD car, of which we have few choices. BMW do an I6 diesel. Very nice apparently. Even Jeremy Clarkson hasn't been rude about it which must be a near miracle since he considers diesels to be the work of the devil. Graham On May 23, 1:01 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Of course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel > > > economy. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Graham That must be a Yurrup-only option; I don't believe BMW sells any Diesels in the YooEss at all. In fact, I don't think VW is currently selling any either, and they were as of a few years ago (and I see quite a few of them on the road.) nate > > > > Of course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel > > > > economy. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > selling any either, and they were as of a few years ago (and I see > quite a few of them on the road.) You could be right. Of course our diesel fuel has been 'clean diesel' for some time here to get the emissions acceptable. It's only recently become available your side of the pond. Shame as the 530d 'wagon' he tested does 40.9 mpg (UK) overall. That's 34 mpg over your way. Graham > That must be a Yurrup-only option; I don't believe BMW sells any > Diesels in the YooEss at all. In fact, I don't think VW is currently > selling any either, and they were as of a few years ago (and I see > quite a few of them on the road.) I believe that VW has plans to bring the new diesel engine vehicles to the US. Not sure when though. I considered a diesel VW a couple of years ago, but at the time, diesel was about the same price or more than premium. Its even worse now, so I think that the only way I would consider one now is if there was no additional charge for a diesel engine. With past models, it was around $1400 more for the diesel engine vs. the gas engine. Even though the MPGs are a lot higher with the diesel, I don't put a whole lot of miles on my cars, so it would take me a long time to realize any savings over a gas model. -=- Tom > > That must be a Yurrup-only option; I don't believe BMW sells any > > Diesels in the YooEss at all. In fact, I don't think VW is currently [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -=- Tom At least with VW I would still consider the Diesel in your situation, as the performance was markedly better than the stock 2.0 gas engine. You'd end up paying a premium to get the 1.8T or VR6 engines, as well. nate > > That must be a Yurrup-only option; I don't believe BMW sells any > > Diesels in the YooEss at all. In fact, I don't think VW is currently [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > on my cars, so it would take me a long time to realize any savings over a > gas model. The trend in Europe is now heading towards more equal prices for gasoline and diesel powered cars. I dare say the huge increase in diesel car sales (around 40% ? now) is responsible for that. Thing is, the US auto makers (other than the big truck makers) don't seem to have a single decent domestic diesel engine between them. Also, European diesels rely heavily on being turbo'd, another area seemingly almost unknown to the US auto makers. Graham > Thing is, the US auto makers (other than the big truck makers) don't seem to > have a single decent domestic diesel engine between them. Also, European diesels > rely heavily on being turbo'd, another area seemingly almost unknown to the US > auto makers. Diesel got a bad rap in the US because of the sulfur content of the fuel and because the mainstream GM diesel product was a disaster. They took a solid V8 oldsmobile gasoline engine and forced it to be a diesel engine. This of course didn't work well. About the only thing americans have a long memory about is bad car models. > > Thing is, the US auto makers (other than the big truck makers) don't seem to > > have a single decent domestic diesel engine between them. Also, European diesels > > rely heavily on being turbo'd, another area seemingly almost unknown to the US > > auto makers. > > Diesel got a bad rap in the US because of the sulfur content of the fuel We got 'clean diesel' ages back. That helped acceptability hugely. > and because the mainstream GM diesel product was a disaster. They took a > solid V8 oldsmobile gasoline engine and forced it to be a diesel engine. > This of course didn't work well. So I understand. Not a good start. > About the only thing americans have a long memory about is bad car > models. Shame about that. The only diesel I've driven myself was one of the Peugeot 1.9 turbo models and that's noted to be a great engine. Honestly, it pulled like stink and went very nicely indeed. Not slow at all. You just need to adjust the revs for gear changes a little compared to a gasoline engine to take full advantage of the considerably higher torque these engines produce. Very competent indeed and they're getting better continually now. Mind you, they still are a bit noisier. Nothing a bit of sound insulation can't fix though. Graham On May 23, 3:04 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Thing is, the US auto makers (other than the big truck makers) don't seem to > > have a single decent domestic diesel engine between them. Also, European diesels [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > solid V8 oldsmobile gasoline engine and forced it to be a diesel engine. > This of course didn't work well. I wouldn't say "of course" - VW did the same thing with their Diesels and it works very well. I guess the VW design must simply have been more overbuilt than the Olds as they were both dead nuts reliable in gasoline form. > About the only thing americans have a long memory about is bad car > models. To some extent. People buy lots of crap cars every day, it's just that the only Diesels that got any market penetration back in the 70's were VW and Olds and consumers really didn't like either - VW because they were underpowered and Olds because they were grenades, so people from that era associate Diesel with tractor-trailers and cars they don't want to buy, because that's all they knew. nate >> Of >> course, a modern I6 diesel isn't too bad in terms of performance/fuel [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > engine, which isn't exactly "modern." And an I-6 is best packaged in > a RWD car, of which we have few choices. Indeed, and I was thinking of BMW when I typed that. Their new 335d is one vehicle I wouldn't mind owning, as long as I didn't have to pay for it. 286 hp, 430 lb-ft, top speed 155 mph and 0-60 mph 6 sec. Just 35 mpg US. Not available in the US, I know, but they exist... > nate Ulf > http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/companies/ford/?postversion=2008052214 > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "Ford now believes that the change in vehicle choice is structural, > not cyclical", Mulally said. Did his kids explain that to him ? Graham > > http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/companies/ford/?postversion=2008052214 > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Did his kids explain that to him ? The folks at Chrysler and GM need to reach that realization too. More and more Americans who have driven only American made cars are switching to Japanese due to their better fuel economy and reliability. My dad's 78 years old and has been driving since his early teens. Last spring, he bought his first Japanese car after having owned only American made cars. My dad loves shopping for cars, whereas, I hate doing that. He spent weeks looking at economical cars. He wanted something highly reliable and with reasonably good milage. He ended up with a Toyota Corolla. He said he preferred to buy something out of Detroit, but there just wasn't anything on the lots of domestic car dealers that met his requirements. When I bought my Prius this past January, I sent my dad out car shopping for me. He ended up finding me a new 2008 Prius for $1,000 less than I was able to get online. I told my dad I wanted something that got at least 40 MPG and had high reliability. The Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid were the only two cars that met my criteria in my price range. I would have loved to buy American, but the auto makers in Detroit do not offer anything to meet my needs. I see that GM is heading in that direction, but Ford seems to be foundering. When I looked on dealers' lots, the GM and Ford lots were full of fuel inefficient trucks, SUs, and large cars. It became clear to me that the managers in Detroit have no clue what Americans want in a car. Sure, I paid a premium for my Prius, but it was only a couple of thousand more than a similarly equipped Detroit car. My car works great, it gets around 46MPG, and its a joy to drive. I greatly underestimated how fast the price of gas would go up. I didn't expect gas to hit $4.50 a gallon until this winter, but it looks like we will be at that point by July. According to Consumer Reports, $4.50 per gallon is the price where a Prius is cost-justified. > > > http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/22/news/companies/ford/?postversion=2008052214 > > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Detroit, but there just wasn't anything on the lots of domestic car > dealers that met his requirements. Nought wrong with a Corolla. Well made without factory defects, a competent drive and economical if perhaps not especially an truly inspiring drive. But not everyone needs some 'inspiring drive', they're quite happy with a car that 'does what it says on the tin'. Why can't US auto makers make something competitive ? Just how difficult can it be ? Why are GM, Ford and Chrysler simply lacking the damn brains to make some decent cars ? Have they become such bean-counters that they've lost sight of their primary purpose ? It's REALLY not difficult to design a nice car to drive these days given the amazing amount of CAD assistance available but US auto makers continually miss the target. What's wrong with their boards that they have become SO incompetent ? Graham |
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