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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2006brake rotors keep warping
Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, and the dealer resurfaced teh rotors. It's now about a year later, and they have warped again. I only drive about 5000 miles per year. What could be causing this? How can I prevent it? Thanks! > Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake > pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks! Several things can be involved here..... (1) NEVER let anybody dink with your lugnuts with an impact wrench.. No matter if he promises you his sister. Have them tighten the nuts by hand and use a torque wrench...No matter if they use torque stix or any other attachment, jerk the impact wrench out of their hands and beat them in the a.s with it. The mating surfaces must be clean and deposit-free... The mounted wheel and rotor can be checked for runout, etc. Might not be a bad idea. (2) If your rear brakes are not working properly, you can overheat the front discs and cause them to warp. Heat is your enemy (3) It doesn't matter what sort of uneven wear patterns you get, it can cause buffeting. Whether the disc is warped or has asymetric wear patterns, both are negative. In both cases, the rotors must be brought back to trueness, by replacement, cleaning away deposits, or machining. Everything has to work as designed or the problem WILL return. ( 4) Some discs (rotors in American terminology) may be more prone to problems than others. Doesn't mean you have to suck up to a dealer, but it MAY mean you need to pay attention to quality. (5) Your calipers and slides must be working as designed also. If they aren't, then you will induce further problems in the braking system... I DIDNT say you have to pay some stealership $2000 to replace everything in your braking system... Whoever works on the brakes needs to do it right the first time. Last but not least...find a GOOD mechanic. Dealerships are not necessarily the best places to look for one. Work with him (or her), and get it solved. I'll add to this..... Evaluate your driving habits. And make sure you have the proper recommended brake fluid. > I'll add to this..... Evaluate your driving habits. And make sure you > have the proper recommended brake fluid. I'll second the driving habit recommendation. All the other advice is right on but only 5000 miles per year makes me think this car is probably subjected a lot of stop and go driving . Brakes and rotors last forever if you never use them, but it doesn't take long to cause problems if you make lots of hard stops. Could it be that this car is used for something like a paper route or Pizza delivery? That would certainly justify once a year brake work.  SignatureKevin Mouton Automotive Technology Instructor "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green >> I'll add to this..... Evaluate your driving habits. And make sure you >> have the proper recommended brake fluid. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > paper route or Pizza delivery? That would certainly justify once a year > brake work. Hi Kevin, do you agree that in some cases, it matters not what you do to acquire "perfect brakes". In everyday driving, the rotors will, by nature, heat up. Then, if puddles of water from rain are on the street and you run thru such a quick cooling situation, they will, by nature, warp just from the rapid cooldown? This has long been my theory, and it certainly seems to happen after even the most careful attention to the previous brake job. Your thoughts, please? Thx, sdlomi2 > >> I'll add to this..... Evaluate your driving habits. And make sure you > >> have the proper recommended brake fluid. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > certainly seems to happen after even the most careful attention to the > previous brake job. Your thoughts, please? Thx, sdlomi2 No, under normal operation, some road splash on the rotor should not cause it to warp. They are designed and engineered with the consideration that they may be used on wet roads. However. If you brake hard and often, have unevenly torqued lug nuts, or other brake system problems, then they will warp and may do so more quickly if doused with water while over heated from excessive use or abuse. SignatureKevin Mouton Automotive Technology Instructor "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green > Hi Kevin, do you agree that in some cases, it matters not what you >do to acquire "perfect brakes". In everyday driving, the rotors will, by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >certainly seems to happen after even the most careful attention to the >previous brake job. Your thoughts, please? Thx, sdlomi2 Absolutely not. In my climate, we're often subjecting our rotor to slush and freezing water here. If your scenario range true, warped rotors would be more common. Simply because of the sudden greater change in temperature. No, my gut reaction is that in order to warp rotors like that is that the driver is either standing hard on the brakes from high speeds, or tends to two-foot drive an automatic, never fully releasing the brakes. > > Hi Kevin, do you agree that in some cases, it matters not what you > >do to acquire "perfect brakes". In everyday driving, the rotors will, by [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > tends to two-foot drive an automatic, never fully releasing the > brakes. I'm actually very light on my brakes. I leave a LOT of distance between me and the car in front, and I slow by coasting unless I absolutely need to. I drive almost exclusively to and from work. About 60% of that is parkway, on which I hardly touch my brakes at all. The rest is local, with up to 8 stoplights (I usually only have to stop for 3 or 4 on average.) I'll agree with the mechanial aspect i.e. rear brakes not working, sticking calipers, impact guns removing a hot rotor but after never having to replace rotors until I got married and became the family mechanic. Driving habits are 90% of why rotors warp. Waiting till the last second to brake, accelerating towards a known stop are killers on rotors. I've even changed rotors in between brake pads. I know this because I've ridden with my wife and seen my mother-in-law drive and now my 15 yr old daughter has the same habits. Signaturewilfie27 http://www.automotiveforums.com > Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake > pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, > and the dealer resurfaced teh rotors. It's now about a year later, and > they have warped again. I only drive about 5000 miles per year. What > could be causing this? How can I prevent it? How do you know the rotors are warped? Who diagnosed that? How? What observations and measurements were used to conclude that a rotor is warped? "Kaz Kylheku" <kkylheku@gmail.com> wrote in message > How do you know the rotors are warped? Who diagnosed that? How? What > observations and measurements were used to conclude that a rotor is > warped? I have read this argument a lot of times, and have visited the website that discusses it. You will notice in my original post that I mention maybe he or she should have the discs and wheels measured for runout, etc. Etc. can mean thickness variation. Doesnt make a damn whether a disc has a thickness variation or warp (runout), your ways of straightening it out are somewhat limited. Yes, you may be able to reposition the disc in some cases, or the wheel, but most of the time you are going to have to trudge down to the machine shop. IF there are deposits on the hubs, around the bolts, etc which cause the assembly to be out of plane or out of eccentricity, then that can be cured by cleaning and repositioning the pieces, but in my experience that is not the normal situation. Work in, or observe, a brake lathe cutting a number of discs and it is very clear that, assuming that they are properly indexed on the lathe, a goodly number are distorted. Something that is a little misleading in some of these writeups is the effect that thickness variation conveys, versus true warping. Thickness variation is mostly felt in the brake pedal, as the caliper piston does move enough to be felt. On warpage, you may not feel it as much in the pedal, but the inertial buffeting you get can certainly be felt and may be confusing to the driver. When you get tire problems, wheel problems, etc then you need an intelligent mechanic to properly diagnose the situation and solve it, not just cut the rotors, or take whatever habitual approach the greasemonkey might hope will work. > > Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake > > pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > observations and measurements were used to conclude that a rotor is > warped? One can only guess, but more than likely the driver of the car noticed a vibration or shudder when braking. When that happens it doesn't rally matter much what sort of observation or measurement are made beyond that because what he has done to have it fixed is pretty much going to be the minimum required anyway. To answer the original question. Among all the reasons given for reoccurrence of the problem the driving habits are the most likely cause IMO. For instance, if you put your mind to it, it is not hard to get the rotors so hot that you actually melt some of the material in the brake pads and thus leave deposits on the rotor that will create an uneven braking surface. This happens to some drivers regularly and to others it never happens. This sort of brake problem rarely happens suddenly. Usually it starts with just a tiny vibration only barely noticeable when braking hard at high speed and over time progresses to the point where you have an objectionable vibration whenever you brake. For some drivers this progression may take many tens of thousands of miles - other drivers may get there in hundreds of miles. -jim > > > Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake > > > pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- guessing, rotors get hot, and then get wet, cheap pads, lug nuts tightened too tight, turned too much, too thin, extended sudden stops, an accumulation of grease / debris on rotors, tire cap slips giving a feel of pulsation. >mho >v fe > guessing, rotors get hot, and then get wet, cheap pads, lug nuts > tightened too tight, turned too much, too thin, extended sudden stops, > an accumulation of grease / debris on rotors, tire cap slips giving a > feel of pulsation. Sounds like your usual "definite maybe" nothing type of answer. You ever do anything but guess? Go golf. > guessing, rotors get hot, and then get wet, cheap pads, lug > nuts tightened too tight, turned too much, too thin, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > mho > > v fe Or perhaps a new repair shop is in order too. ABS can also create similar feelings. Low mileage might also indicate an accumulation of dirt causing the pulsing. Have a large car that sits fo rmonths at a time; brakes pulsate like crazy after storage, take a couple hundred miles to smooth out, then work fine. Perhaps just a long ride would help? Just guessing on this one. Pop fiveiron@webtv.net wrote in article <1609-44A819A6-64@storefull-3315.bay.webtv.net>... > guessing, rotors get hot, and then get wet, cheap pads, lug nuts > tightened too tight, turned too much, too thin, extended sudden stops, > an accumulation of grease / debris on rotors, tire cap slips giving a > feel of pulsation. Straight out of a Google "brake troubleshooting" search.............. > > Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake > > pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > observations and measurements were used to conclude that a rotor is > warped? When I brake, the steering wheel shakes back and forth, and there is a pulsing from the wheels. It slows in frequency as the car slows. I can actaully feel the differences in braking power as the wheels rotate, and can sometimes distinguish between which side is applying more braking torque. > > How do you know the rotors are warped? Who diagnosed that? How? What > > observations and measurements were used to conclude that a rotor is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > rotate, and can sometimes distinguish between which side is applying > more braking torque. What does the 'dealer' tell you?? Are the discs warped or do they exhibit thickness variation? The 'wheelerdealer' mechanic has been working on the more typical causes of buffeting. Something in your case is atypical, and he - or perhaps a competent independent mechanic - should try to find out what is causing this, not just keep trying the same thing over and over again. You need to know if the bearings are good, if the hubs are true, if the discs (rotors) are true when installed on the car, if they are warped or worn when you have this problem. Corrosion byproducts or dirt should be cleaned from all mating surfaces before the trueness is checked. You need to know if your rear brakes are operating properly, because if they are not, they can throw heavy braking loads on the front and cause problems. It is my opinion, too, that you must NEVER allow any idiot with an impact wrench to use them on disc brake systems. I dont GAS if he promised that the torque sticks he uses are state of the art, he should use something REALLY state of the art (a torque wrench and a brain), and carefully cross tighten.. Somebody mentioned ABS systems, and I have noticed some of them will buffet and grunt and groan when they are working. Totally different feel from when they are not active. > Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake > pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, > and the dealer resurfaced teh rotors. It's now about a year later, and > they have warped again. I only drive about 5000 miles per year. What > could be causing this? How can I prevent it? You may find this an interesting read http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml >> Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake >> pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You may find this an interesting read > http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml I think we all should read this link, being sure to recognize the given myths as myths. sdlomi2 sdlomi2 Wrote: > >> Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front > brake [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I think we all should read this link, being sure to recognize the given > myths as myths. sdlomi2 I stopped reading as soon as he said he'd never seen a warped rotor....who's he trying to fool? And why? I've personally trashed many of them after verifying correct lathe setup and hub condition. Some are so bad, you can see it. Transfer of friction lining? Yeah, seen plenty of that...feels different than a warp, though...same as cracks. Many new rotors are so thin, when new, by the time they need a resurface, they are already worn near or below spec...I'd rather replace, personally. Signaturejeffcoslacker http://www.automotiveforums.com > I stopped reading as soon as he said he'd never seen a warped > rotor....who's he trying to fool? And why? I've personally trashed many [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > resurface, they are already worn near or below spec...I'd rather > replace, personally. I have to agree with you. If he has never seen one, then he is staying in the airconditioned office or parts department and letting someone else do the work. While I don't challenge the brake lining transfer, nor the thickness variation issues, let's get back to earth. > >> Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake > >> pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I think we all should read this link, being sure to recognize the given > myths as myths. sdlomi2 I don't understand how this page is of much use to the person asking about his Honda Civic brake problem. Is your position that as a solution to his problem he should trade his civic in for a shelby cobra? or what? -jim > I don't understand how this page is of much use to the person asking > about his Honda Civic brake problem. Is your position that as a solution > to his problem he should trade his civic in for a shelby cobra? or what? > > -jim The most important thing about this site, IMO, is to alert people to the fact that disc brake systems require some thought and diagnosis to master. Is the ordinary mechanic going to measure the runout and thickness variation on a rotor? Not likely. Many of them just replace the caliper, rotors, and pads and send you packing. That sort of thing costs money and doesn't necessarily cure the problem.. Bad driving habits, panic stops, poor quality parts, overtorqueing, etc all figure into the equation. Is on-car grinding the answer? It may be AN answer but possibly not THE answer. > > I don't understand how this page is of much use to the person asking > > about his Honda Civic brake problem. Is your position that as a solution [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Is the ordinary mechanic going to measure the runout and thickness variation > on a rotor? Not likely. Well if they did give you a complete layout analysis of the disc geometry with 150 different measurements of thickness at different points and TIR ,measurements at different diameters - what would that accomplish?. What exactly does quantifying the lack of trueness do? You already know it is there because you feel it whenever you apply the brakes. > Many of them just replace the caliper, rotors, and pads and send you > packing. > > That sort of thing costs money and doesn't necessarily cure the problem.. It doesn't cure the problem? > Bad driving habits, panic stops, poor quality parts, overtorqueing, etc all > figure into the equation. Maybe I was reading a different article or just read too fast, but I didn't see any of those things discussed. What I read was a discussion of high performance pads and rotors used on race cars where brakes are run hard and hot. The only thing it said that seemed relevant to the honda civic problem was the advice NOT to use this sort of set-up on ordinary street cars and ordinary driving conditions as it will give very poor performance in that setting. That is the author makes it quite clear that what he is discussing has very little application to the ordinary car and driver. The one thing that the article does do a good job of shedding light on that hasn't been mentioned much is the discussion of the variation in surface hardness and wear characteristics that develops on rotors. This applies to street cars as well. This unevenness is caused by heat and develops over time as the uneven wear causes uneven heating which causes more uneven hardness and more uneven wear. Measuring and quantifying that phenomena may be an interesting exercise but I doubt it will shed much light on exactly when and how that whole spiral gets started as typically in a street car it happens over many thousands of miles. -jim > Is on-car grinding the answer? It may be AN answer but possibly not THE > answer. > Maybe I was reading a different article or just read too fast, but I > didn't see any of those things discussed. What I read was a discussion [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -jim I took a few liberties... You can find some of the other information at the Babcox site. http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml There definitely can be variations in surface hardness. Disk quality and driving habits may be the big satans here. You can surely hear it when the brake lathe hits a hard patch on the rotor surface. (It can be measured with a hardness gauge, but, really, nobody is likely to have one, and nobody is going to use it unless they are writing a paper for a presentation.) The claims are that just truing up the rotors and replacing the pads, freshening up the calipers may not be the whole story.. There is some reason to want to know if the rotors are true on the car, and if the hubs are the cause of some out-of-plane issues. If the hubs are not true, and you cannot true the rotor movement by measuring the out of round and indexing them to a position on the hub where they come into true, then you have a different issue. You can grind them true on the hub, or you can address the hub and rotor issues with new parts. If there is thickness variation (and I have seen this), then you still have to machine or grind or replace the rotors, and address the cause of the thickness variation. I would question anyone who said that rotors don't warp (and that HAS been said on this group). They do. I have also seen the effect that tires can have in amplifying the buffeting of brake systems. Have particularly noticed this when people sometimes rotate their tires and get some unexpected and upsetting braking buffet. This can be further compounded by jackasses at tire stores that don't torque the lugs properly when they do the rotation. While the tire changers don't do anything to damage the tires, the combination of bad torqueing and gimpy tires can be very obvious. You can come away from a tire rotation worse off than you went in. It is my belief that new rotors, or truing of the old ones, plus good pads, calipers that slide as they should, and proper torqueing will still cure the majority of brake ills. But maybe not all of them. > > Maybe I was reading a different article or just read too fast, but I > > didn't see any of those things discussed. What I read was a discussion [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I took a few liberties... You can find some of the other information at the > Babcox site. Please make that http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf100326.htm My bad...so solly >> >> Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front >> >> brake pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > solution to his problem he should trade his civic in for a shelby > cobra? or what? The best reference I've found yet for brake pulsation is this one: http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf100326.htm Basically, anything from an out-of-true disc to a seized caliper to to rust to glaze to mis-tightened lug nuts can cause pulsation, in addition to actual disc warpage itself. The Babcox article gives lots of troubleshooting tips a tech can follow to narrow down the issue (but which a customer may not want to pay for!). Considering the OP only drives 5K per year, and that his pulsation only starts after some passage of time, I would say his problem may be patchy rust buildup on the rotors, and perhaps resulting patchy glaze. OP appears to in the Washington DC area. Having experienced this myself on occasion, I can attest to the fact that there is little palpable difference between pulsation from different sources, so it's not immediately obvious what's actually causing it, especially to non-techs. SignatureTeGGeR® braking shouldn't been done by pumping the brake pedal, but by applying enough even pressure to slow, or stop the car, whichever the case might be. tapping of the brake peddle with the toe / foot to disengage the cruise control, when necessary. riding the brake pedal ever so lightly can increase rotor heat to a determent. brakes and horns are not interchangeable, but can coexist in a state of an emergency. >mho >v fe fiveiron@webtv.net wrote in article <16621-44A83B17-16@storefull-3316.bay.webtv.net>... > braking shouldn't been done by pumping the brake pedal, but by applying > enough [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >mho > >v fe The more I read your often cryptical and non-sensical crap, the more I realize that it truly is NOT your "humble opinion"..... ....rather it is a near-related cut-and-paste from some other source - making you nothing more than a plagiarist - someone who steals another's work and presents it as their own.. >Hello. My brake rotors on my civic keep warping. I had my front brake >pads and callipers replaced. About a year later, they warped again, >and the dealer resurfaced teh rotors. It's now about a year later, and >they have warped again. I only drive about 5000 miles per year. What >could be causing this? How can I prevent it? What's makes you think the rotors are warped (other than the dealer's say so)? If it's because the brakes are juddering then the chances are the rotors aren't warping at all. Far more likely it's being caused by the irregular deposition of friction material from the pads. Furthermore machining the rotors in a brake lathe will only compound the problem. Brake pads that aren't suitable for your driving conditions and/or failure to bed the pads in on installation is most likely to be the root cause of the problem. Original equipment pads are no guarantee of suitability. The solution is to have the the rotors ground rather than turned on a lathe, or else replace them; fit new pads and bed them in according to the pad manufacturer's instructions (asuming they come from a reputable manufacturer). Read carefully what the late Carroll Smith had to say on the subject (a link has already been provided elsewhere in the thread). It might also assist in choosing suitable pads. In spite of owning a car that's notorious for "warped rotors", I've not had a hint of brake shudder since throwing away the original pads at the very first sign of trouble... about when it became due for its first oil change. I'm now on the third set of pads and the rotors have _never_ been machined, nor are they ever likely to be. The car's done close to 100,000 miles at this stage. SignatureJohn H > The solution is to have the the rotors ground rather than turned on a > lathe, or else replace them; fit new pads and bed them in according to > the pad manufacturer's instructions (asuming they come from a > reputable manufacturer). No, the solution is to find out for sure what is happening...don't guess. It is always a good idea to seat in the pads according to recommendations. > > The solution is to have the the rotors ground rather than turned on a > > lathe, or else replace them; fit new pads and bed them in according to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > It is always a good idea to seat in the pads according to recommendations. I understand about seating in the pads, but I don't do very many break jobs anymore, and the last few I did, the instructions in the box said no seating was required. Just wondering if Wagner has a clue or they really don't need it on their Thermo Quiet ceramic pads? So far, I have followed the recomendation and had no complaints. SignatureKevin Mouton Automotive Technology Instructor "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green > I understand about seating in the pads, but I don't do very many break jobs > anymore, and the last few I did, the instructions in the box said no seating > was required. Just wondering if Wagner has a clue or they really don't need > it on their Thermo Quiet ceramic pads? So far, I have followed the > recomendation and had no complaints. Nor have I had any complaints, Kevin. The last set I installed were ceramic technology, cost a little over $40 for the axle set (front only). Most of the 'seating in' is done by the time you finish road testing the car. If you use cheapo pads, you may get varying results. I had a new set of tires mounted yesterday at a local tire dealership, and told the technicians NOT to use the impact wrench to tighten my lugs on the front. They came back with a torque stick on their impact, and I told them to get a breakover bar and do it by hand.. (But, señor, we don't HAVE a wrench)..They darn sure didnt have a torque wrench. I noted how they had been tightening nuts, and instead of using the recommended crossing pattern, they just went around the circle, hammering away. So, I put the nuts on myself, found a breakover bar, and took the car home where I could retorque it with my own tools. The last time this same set of geniuses rotated the old tires, I wasn't there, and now I know why my rotors started buffeting after they did the rotation. Eternal vigilence is the price of basically everything we want done satisfactorily. > In spite of owning a car that's notorious for "warped rotors", I've > not had a hint of brake shudder since throwing away the original pads > at the very first sign of trouble... about when it became due for its > first oil change. I'm now on the third set of pads and the rotors > have _never_ been machined, nor are they ever likely to be. The car's > done close to 100,000 miles at this stage. The average good driver at this point in the life of a car would probably have purchased one set of pads and one set of rotors. That may actually be cheaper than replacing the most expensive pads often enough in an attempt to minimize wear on the rotors. Going 60K-80K between brake jobs is not that unusual and on many cars rotors don't cost all that much more than pads. If you drive where salt is used extensively in the winter about 4-5 winters is about all you can reasonably expect before the integrity of rotors is seriously compromised due to rust. -jim > Going 60K-80K between > brake jobs is not that unusual and on many cars rotors don't cost all > that much more than pads. That is true for some cars.. On others, the rotors can run $60-70 a piece, and I will machine these if they need it and will take it. Similar on calipers...I never really minded rebuilding them, but when and if you can buy re-new units with the pads about as cheaply as you can rebuild, then I'm all for it. This isn't always the case either. |
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