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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / June 2006

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Throttle Position Sensor and....

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programbo5@aol.com - 18 Jun 2006 18:58 GMT
My 1994 Cherokee 4.0 was kicking out a code 24..TPS..It was running a
bit erratic..hesitant..etc....Went to the junkyard and found another
one and cleared the code...Ran perfectly for 200+ miles and then the
code and minor troubles returned.....Back to the junkayrd..Found a 1996
4.0 with only 72,000 miles on it (Whole side caved in from a wreck near
the rear) got that sensor..Same thing..Ran great for several days then
code 24 again...All these sensors can`t be bad...What else could cause
that code to appear if the sensor is ok?...Or what could cause sensors
to go bad that fast if in fact they are bad?...I read the Haynes manual
about checking the sensor and it says to "back probe" (A few posters
also mention this) what exactly does that mean?...Thanks
Shep - 19 Jun 2006 00:33 GMT
Used parts, why not get a new one and eliminate the posssibility of that
being the problem. Go to autozone.com/repairinfo for the testing of a tps on
that truck.
> My 1994 Cherokee 4.0 was kicking out a code 24..TPS..It was running a
> bit erratic..hesitant..etc....Went to the junkyard and found another
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> about checking the sensor and it says to "back probe" (A few posters
> also mention this) what exactly does that mean?...Thanks
programbo5@aol.com - 19 Jun 2006 02:28 GMT
> Used parts, why not get a new one and eliminate the posssibility of that
> being the problem.

 Maybe I don`t want to pay $80 for a part I don`t need..I get the
sensors for free and it`s something that getting a used one shouldn`t
be a problem with it being good..Thanks for the non-answer
Mike Romain - 19 Jun 2006 15:21 GMT
The usual problem I see with the TPS and the CPS is just a dirty
connection plug.  I take spray contact cleaner to them and then they
work perfect again.  So far 'I' have not needed to change either.

I just got an 87 Cherokee and it wanted to rev at 2300 every second time
it was starter.  It needed a new TPS....  Ya sure it did.  One quick
spray of the connection with contact cleaner and it purrs at 650 rpm.

I was told 6 or 7 years ago I needed a new TPS for my 88 Cherokee which
now has 315K km.  Again, a spray on the connection every two years or so
and it is still running perfectly with the original TPS in there.

They are low power computer signal connections.  They can be corroded
enough to still look clean but not pass the signal.  A fresh plug and
unplug will scratch a new contact for a very short while sometimes, but
the clean is the best.  That is why folks say to unplug and plug back
the CPS to get a few more starts out of them...

Oh, 'back probing' just means poking a meter into the back side of a
live connection to try and get a voltage reading out of it.  TPS voltage
should be from 0.02V at idle position up to 4.8V at the full throttle
position with the engine and AC off but the key in 'run'.  The TPS can
be tested unplugged with an ohm meter.  It is a rheostat that should
have even resistance all the way up.  If the resistance jumps around it
is a bad or dirty one.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

> My 1994 Cherokee 4.0 was kicking out a code 24..TPS..It was running a
> bit erratic..hesitant..etc....Went to the junkyard and found another
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> about checking the sensor and it says to "back probe" (A few posters
> also mention this) what exactly does that mean?...Thanks
TeGGeR® - 20 Jun 2006 02:51 GMT
> Oh, 'back probing' just means poking a meter into the back side of a
> live connection to try and get a voltage reading out of it.

Some connectors are very hard to backprobe with the meter, as the connector
conforms closely to the wire diameter. In those cases, I use a straightened
paper clip to stick into the connector and make contact with the metal
contact inside, then touch the VOM probe to that.

>  TPS voltage
> should be from 0.02V at idle position

Are you sure it isn't more like 0.2V? 0.02 seems kinda low.

> up to 4.8V at the full throttle
> position with the engine and AC off but the key in 'run'.  The TPS can
> be tested unplugged with an ohm meter.  It is a rheostat that should
> have even resistance all the way up.  If the resistance jumps around it
> is a bad or dirty one.

Comboverfish told me that wasn't a reliable way to check, when I needed to
check mine. He said voltage was the only reliable way.

Signature

TeGGeR®

Mike Romain - 20 Jun 2006 16:39 GMT
> > Oh, 'back probing' just means poking a meter into the back side of a
> > live connection to try and get a voltage reading out of it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> paper clip to stick into the connector and make contact with the metal
> contact inside, then touch the VOM probe to that.

I have used needles and then sealed the holes with a dab of sensor safe
RTV.

> >  TPS voltage
> > should be from 0.02V at idle position
>
> Are you sure it isn't more like 0.2V? 0.02 seems kinda low.

The Jeep one calls for >200 MV or .02V.  The early adjustable ones
called for 0.026V.

If it's an automatic, it actually works backward on one pin set.  4.8 at
idle and 0.02 at full throttle.

> > up to 4.8V at the full throttle
> > position with the engine and AC off but the key in 'run'.  The TPS can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Comboverfish told me that wasn't a reliable way to check, when I needed to
> check mine. He said voltage was the only reliable way.

I wouldn't argue there, but if the TPS has a 'dead' spot in the
acceleration, that can usually show up on the resistance.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
TeGGeR® - 20 Jun 2006 17:40 GMT
>> >  TPS voltage
>> > should be from 0.02V at idle position
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The Jeep one calls for >200 MV or .02V.  The early adjustable ones
> called for 0.026V.

A millivolt is 1/1000th of a volt. A thousand of them is 1V. If you had
only 200 of them, that would be .2 of a volt, not .02.

Work the decimal places back and you'll see:
1.000 V (1,000 millivolts)
0.200 V (200 millivolts)
0.020 V (20 millivolts)

> If it's an automatic, it actually works backward on one pin set.  4.8
> at idle and 0.02 at full throttle.

My Integra's is .3V to 4.5V through its range, from closed to WOT.

>> > up to 4.8V at the full throttle
>> > position with the engine and AC off but the key in 'run'.  The TPS
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I wouldn't argue there, but if the TPS has a 'dead' spot in the
> acceleration, that can usually show up on the resistance.

That's what I thought too, but he differed and he's got a lot more
experience than I do, so I checked it his way. It tested OK either way.

Signature

TeGGeR®

Mike Romain - 20 Jun 2006 17:59 GMT
> >> >  TPS voltage
> >> > should be from 0.02V at idle position
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> 0.200 V (200 millivolts)
> 0.020 V (20 millivolts)

Figures.  The book says 0.026V in one place and over 200 MV in another.
I have never checked mine, I just clean their connection and away they
go again.

> > If it's an automatic, it actually works backward on one pin set.  4.8
> > at idle and 0.02 at full throttle.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> --
> TeGGeR®
* - 19 Jun 2006 19:20 GMT
programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
<1150653494.729245.27410@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...
> My 1994 Cherokee 4.0 was kicking out a code 24..TPS..It was running a
> bit erratic..hesitant..etc....Went to the junkyard and found another
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the rear) got that sensor..Same thing..Ran great for several days then
> code 24 again...

Just remember, there is a reason why they are called "junk" yards......

> All these sensors can`t be bad...What else could cause
> that code to appear if the sensor is ok?...Or what could cause sensors
> to go bad that fast if in fact they are bad?...

Not having your vehicle right in front of me,  I would suspect that you are
fixing the symptom....not the cause.

> I read the Haynes manual...

THAT could easily be a part of your problem.....

> about checking the sensor and it says to "back probe" (A few posters
> also mention this) what exactly does that mean?...

That means to check back through the system to see if something upstream is
breaking/burning up these TPS units...
Shep - 19 Jun 2006 20:45 GMT
How dare you not fix his used parts/car problem!!

> programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
> <1150653494.729245.27410@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> is
> breaking/burning up these TPS units...
programbo5@aol.com - 19 Jun 2006 23:51 GMT
Shep wrote:>>> How dare you not fix his used parts/car problem!!<<<

 I didn`t want someone to fix it for me but to answer some basic
questions in a clear logical manner which Mike and many others always
have..In his above post he explained "back probing" which is what I
thought it may have been and which I am completely competent to do but
I had never heard that phrase before...I also asked what else could be
causing the problem other than the sensor and he suggested another
possiblity..It may not be the cause but it`s something else to
consider...As far as vehicles in junkyards having "junk" parts that
simply isn`t true as I`ve used them for 25 years and have saved
thousands of dollars by getting used but still fully functional factory
parts off of "junk" cars instead of buying new after-market
parts...Alternators..starters..wiper motors..fans..etc...I mean
seriously..Who is going to take a Jeep to the junkyard because the TPS
is bad???.......Thanks for all the useful tips and advice I get on here
from time to time :-)
* - 21 Jun 2006 15:01 GMT
programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
<1150757476.356744.40130@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...

> Shep wrote:>>> How dare you not fix his used parts/car problem!!<<<
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> is bad???.......Thanks for all the useful tips and advice I get on here
> from time to time :-)

While you and thousands of others have had success dealing with "Automotive
Recycling Emporiums" for hard parts, I think you'll find electronics to be
a bit different.

Do you believe these "Purveyors of Junque" actually give a rat's a.s about
things such as static discharge, voltage spikes, and moisture issues when
it comes to electronics?

You may have taken a TPS off a car with a closed hood, but you have no way
of ascertaining whether or not the hood had been left open all winter, and
only closed a week before your arrival.

You don't know if one of the NASA candidates - working in the yard until
they are called to Houston - intentionally dropped a 9/16 wrench across a
battery's posts just to watch it glow.

You don't know if the reason for the car being in the automotive version of
"Shady Acres" in the first place might have, somehow, cracked a circuit
board in the electronic component you are purchasing in the process of
"qualifying" for retirement.

You don't know if the counterman at the yard decided that the computer out
of a 1999 Horse's a.s will fit a 2002 Jackass by simply changing the PROM -
which he did on a dry, winter day while wearing the full tilt of Polyester
clothing, sitting at the boss's desk in the nylon-carpeted office -
resulting in a static discharge that would jump-start many of the derelicts
sitting out in the yard.

I had one "almost-customer" bring me a used alternator. I pointed out that
it was different because of the electrical connection, and he told me the
"mechanic" at the boneyard told him to just change the wire terminal.

When I spun the unit by hand, I could hear and feel the rotor hitting
something internally. He explained that the "mechanic" had to re-clock the
back cover in order to make it fit, and said that the noise would
eventually go away.

While re-clocking an alternator case is a legitimate operation, most of us
do not leave an alternator with the rotor scraping against the field
windings.

As I said, he became an "almost-customer." I could see more
post-installation issues than it was worth.

I am not against using used parts. I run an oval-track race car in a
division requiring stock components, and I am constantly modifying and
replacing chassis parts.

I will not, however, use ANYTHING electronic from a junk yard......PERIOD!
Pete C. - 21 Jun 2006 20:33 GMT
> programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
> <1150757476.356744.40130@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>
> I will not, however, use ANYTHING electronic from a junk yard......PERIOD!

A TPS sensor is not "electronic" and is most certainly not sensitive to
ESD. A TPS sensor is simply a potentiometer in a fancy case.

Pete C.
Bob - 22 Jun 2006 04:12 GMT
>> programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
>> <1150757476.356744.40130@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
>
> Pete C.

You are 100% correct...... that being said I still wouldn't waste my time
installing a used one.
                                 Bob
Pete C. - 22 Jun 2006 13:01 GMT
> >> programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
> >> <1150757476.356744.40130@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
> installing a used one.
>                                   Bob

Nor would I since they are built like crap. I've been debating machining
up my own mount for a quality potentiometer (Bournes, Clarostat, etc.)
to take the place of the garbage ones that are so unreliable.

Pete C.
Mike Romain - 22 Jun 2006 15:48 GMT
> > >> programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
> > >> <1150757476.356744.40130@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
> Pete C.

Heh, I have 2 Jeep Cherokees, one with 315K km and the other with 385K
km and 'both' are still on their original TPS's.  They both need the
power connection to the TPS cleaned every couple years, but other than
that both work perfectly.

I wouldn't think twice about trying a used one.  I would take my meter
with me to test it for even ohms even though someone mentioned that
isn't the best way.  The meter would weed out a dead one though.

This thread 'was' about a Jeep Cherokee TPS.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Pete C. - 22 Jun 2006 16:05 GMT
> > > >> programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
> > > >> <1150757476.356744.40130@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Ohming one will test it well enough if you use an analog meter or a good
digital meter than has an analog bar graph and test by very slowly
opening the throttle plate while the TPS is still on the donor vehicle
and looking for any glitches in the progression of the needle / bar
graph. The keys are to have it mounted on the vehicle so you don't apply
odd loading to the TPS shaft and to move slowly enough to catch dirty /
dead spots.

Pete C.
programbo5@aol.com - 22 Jun 2006 23:29 GMT
>>>>You don't know if one of the NASA candidates - working in the yard
until they are called to Houston - intentionally dropped a 9/16 wrench
across a battery's posts just to watch it glow........You don't
know......<<<<

 Actually I know almost all these things you mentioned...I`m not sure
how the junkyards work where you live but the large ones I deal with
here are all self serve and the vehicles in them only stay a month at
the most...They look like shopping center parking lots...I have never
had any problem with bad parts from them because the parts people
normally buy are not things which would have taken a vehicle to a
junkyard..I would say 90% of the vehicles there are there because they
were simply to old to bother putting or fixing the transmission or
engine in them when they went up but all the accessories or electrical
components were still working fine..I took my Astro van there recently
to junk and drove it there at 65 mph..It was just blowing smoke from
worn valves or whatever but I didn`t feel like messing with it
anymore...I got an almost new looking Ignition Module for my Caravan
there recently (A $125 part) for $12......Took a 165 amp Leece-Neville
out of an ambulance they had out there..$15...Generally anything small
enough to slip in your pocket is free..They check your tool box when
you leave to make sure you aren`t taking a starter out with you but
don`t care about small junk
* - 24 Jun 2006 18:23 GMT
programbo5@aol.com wrote in article
<1151015367.754425.303940@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>...

> Generally anything small
> enough to slip in your pocket is free..

Taking something without paying for it? Isn't that called something
else???? I know!  STEALING!!!!!
programbo5@aol.com - 24 Jun 2006 22:20 GMT
> Taking something without paying for it? Isn't that called something
> else???? I know!  STEALING!!!!!

More like alternative recycling surplus redistribution :-)
 
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