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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2006

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fiveiron@webtv.net - 29 Jun 2006 03:14 GMT
Consumer Reports finds vehicles often get worse gas mileage than the
figures listed on the manufacturer's sticker, especially for city
driving.

For example, a four-cylinder Chevrolet Malibu has an EPA estimate of 24
mpg in city driving, but Consumer Reports only achieved 16 mpg in our
city test. That's one-third less fuel economy.

The Dodge Stratus four-cylinder model is estimated to get 22 mpg in the
city, but achieved just 14 mpg in our city test.

And the four-wheel drive Nissan Armada, which the manufacturer's sticker
says should get 13 mpg for city driving, got a mere 9 mpg in our test.

That means driving around town, you'd get about 100 miles less on a tank
of gas.

>mho
>v fe

>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
lugnut - 29 Jun 2006 04:49 GMT
>Consumer Reports finds vehicles often get worse gas mileage than the
>figures listed on the manufacturer's sticker, especially for city
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"

The MPG on the sticker is based on a very stringent SAE and
EPA specified test regimen on a dyno.  More often than not,
vehicles will vary considerably on the road because it is
not possible at this point to program the dyno for every
conceivable driver and vehicle operating parameter.  The
sticker numbers are best used for comparing one vehicle to
another as opposed to predicting the actual fuel economy of
a particular vehicle.  It is likely that a driver that gets
30% less fuel mileage in a Chevy or Ford than posted on  the
sticker would also get comparably less fuel mileage if he
were in a Toyota or Mercedes under the same driving
conditions.

Lugnut
=AB Paul =BB - 29 Jun 2006 05:30 GMT
> Consumer Reports finds vehicles often get worse gas mileage than the
> figures listed on the manufacturer's sticker, especially for city
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> And the four-wheel drive Nissan Armada, which the manufacturer's sticker
> says should get 13 mpg for city driving, got a mere 9 mpg in our test.

I keep records for business purposes.  Around town to me means stop and go city
driving with some expressway in Houston, Dallas, Pittsburg, San Francisco, Miami,
Atlanta, Chicago, etc. I've been to all in the last few years (and many more) and
rented vehicles there.  To say I have a "lead foot" is an understatement.  Tires
last me about 30k max.

I have rented at least 10 new style Malibu's in the last two years.
Five had 4 cyl.  They all got at least 21 mpg city driving.

I have an 05 Stratus.  It gets at least 22 mpg city driving.  Never below 22.

I never drove an Armada but have rented similar size Ford Explorers, Chevy
Trailblazers, Jeep Libertys, etc and never got less than 16 mpg around town.
rantonrave@mail.com - 29 Jun 2006 06:04 GMT
=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?= wrote:

>>Consumer Reports finds vehicles often get worse gas mileage than the
>>figures listed on the manufacturer's sticker, especially for city driving.

>>For example, a four-cylinder Chevrolet Malibu has an EPA estimate of 24
>>mpg in city driving, but Consumer Reports only achieved 16 mpg in our
>>city test. That's one-third less fuel economy.

>>The Dodge Stratus four-cylinder model is estimated to get 22 mpg in the
>>city, but achieved just 14 mpg in our city test.

>I keep records for business purposes.  Around town to me means stop and go city
>driving with some expressway in Houston, Dallas, Pittsburg, San Francisco, Miami,
>Atlanta, Chicago, etc. I've been to all in the last few years (and many more) and
>rented vehicles there.  To say I have a "lead foot" is an understatement.  Tires
>last me about 30k max.

>I have rented at least 10 new style Malibu's in the last two years.
>Five had 4 cyl.  They all got at least 21 mpg city driving.

>I have an 05 Stratus.  It gets at least 22 mpg city driving.  Never below 22.

It depends on the city.  Consumers Union's city mileage test simulates
driving in congested downtown areas of places like New York and Boston,
not mega-suburb like Houston or Los Angeles.  My firm's records for
cars outfitted with speed recorders indicated CU's city tests were
realistic, including their highway test.  I'm guessing your highway
mileage is low-mid 30s.  How far off am I?
fiveiron@webtv.net - 29 Jun 2006 06:25 GMT
>I'm guessing your highway mileage is >low-mid 30s.
>How far off am I?
===
15/31 is typical for city, hiway driving.

Paul mentioned 22 mpg city earlier, I wish I new his secret.

for '05 2.4L 4 door Stratus SRT sedan, automatic, w/air. 15/31 mpg.
(tops)

===
5w30 vs 10w30 for mpg purposes?

>mho
>v fe

>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
fiveiron@webtv.net - 29 Jun 2006 06:50 GMT
>Paul says,
>I have an 05 Stratus.
>It gets at least 22 mpg city driving.
>Never below 22.
======
good for Paul, but it bugs the hell out of me since I only get 15 mpg
w/an '05 4-dr. stratus sedan - srt. 2.4L. automatic w/air.

have any mileage enhancements been added? would like to know the secret.

>mho
>v fe

>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
Norm De Plume - 29 Jun 2006 10:18 GMT
> >Paul says,
> >I have an 05 Stratus.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> good for Paul, but it bugs the hell out of me since I only get 15 mpg
> w/an '05 4-dr. stratus sedan - srt. 2.4L. automatic w/air.

The difference is in the truthiness.
thecombustionkid - 29 Jun 2006 14:51 GMT
> > >Paul says,
> > >I have an 05 Stratus.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The difference is in the truthiness.
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone,

Im new at this group thing, and i am only trying to put in my two
cents.

I could be wrong about my opinion, but im willing to learn. I thought
that what it says on the sticker from the windows of these cars are
rough estimates based off of simulating road tests. Someone had made a
point earlier that they (who ever they are) can not account for every
driving, or every road condition. Not only is the person behind the
wheel a large factor - the car itself has to be kept in mind. Assuming
people are keeping up with their preventitave maintenance schedules,
then obvioulsy you will have better gas milage than that of someone who
does not keep up with it. One of the most simplistic ways we can
improve gas milage is steady driving. On the highway; setting the
cruise control or keeping the rpms at a consistant level. During stop
and go traffic it would certainly be next to impossible to keep the car
steady.

Any comments anyone? If im walking around thinking what i just said is
right, and in reality im wrong; please inform me. No one likes to be
the laughing stock of a joke.
Mike Romain - 29 Jun 2006 15:40 GMT
> > > >Paul says,
> > > >I have an 05 Stratus.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> right, and in reality im wrong; please inform me. No one likes to be
> the laughing stock of a joke.

There has been a bunch of mention in the news lately about forcing those
EPA 'estimates' to reflect 'real' road driving.  Up to now they are a
fantasy number done in a test station.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
rantonrave@mail.com - 30 Jun 2006 12:15 GMT
>There has been a bunch of mention in the news lately about forcing those
>EPA 'estimates' to reflect 'real' road driving.  Up to now they are a
>fantasy number done in a test station.

The EPA numbers are real but not realistic.

In the 1970s, Congress mandated the use of EPA numbers or worse because
car sellers were providing dubious numbers taken under optimum
conditions with test drivers who knew how to squeeze every mile from a
gallon of gas. The EPA was employed because it was already in the
business of certifying that cars met emissions standards, and because
the EPA measured what came out of the exhaust, it could calculate the
amount of fuel that went in.  But the original EPA numbers were
unusually pessimistic, and almost every driver got better fuel mileage,
so either a new test was introduced or the numbers were arbitrarily
adjusted.  The adjustments have changed a few times over the years, but
I believe they tend to be roughly 1/3 too high for the city mileage and
1/3 too low for highway mileage.  Alsohybrid vehicles receive a
different test whose fuel economy results can't be compared to those
those of conventional vehicles, and hybrids often show higher city than
highway economy because during a large portion of the test only the
electric motor is run.

Many people also criticize the tests for being run on a dynamometer
rather than on the road, but this probably isn't much of a factor,
except maybe for trucks and highway driving.
=AB Paul =BB - 30 Jun 2006 02:17 GMT
> >Paul says,
> >I have an 05 Stratus.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> have any mileage enhancements been added? would like to know the secret.

Nothing done to the cars except bump up the tire pressure.  My own cars run 32-33
psi.
Using full syn oil gives me another 2 mpg but the increased oil cost offsets the
better mpg.  I keep my vehicles tuned and tweaked but no more than anyone else can
do.
One poster (rantonrave@mailooo) had a really good point about mega cities vs.
suburb cities.  Nearly all of my rental driving has been in suburb type cities -
or at least in areas where the traffic keeps moving, albeit at a slow pace, either
on the freeway at 20 mph or light to light.  I bet that's part of the answer.
Sitting still in traffic burns gas.
I have to go to Newark NJ and NYC in July and Cleveland in Aug.  I'll post the
mileage for what ever I rent.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 30 Jun 2006 03:16 GMT
10-4 Paul, thanks for the feedback.

and congrats on the 22 mpg in the city.

but 15 mpg for me is on the very low-end of the spectrum. (kinda
insulting)<s>

btw - the oil is 10w30 Castrol full synthetic. If I used reg. oil, I'd
only get 12-13 mpg.

>mho
>v fe

>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
rantonrave@mail.com - 30 Jun 2006 03:31 GMT
«» wrote:

>>>Paul says,
>>>I have an 05 Stratus.
>>>It gets at least 22 mpg city driving.
>>>Never below 22.

>>good for Paul, but it bugs the hell out of me since I only get 15 mpg
>>w/an '05 4-dr. stratus sedan - srt. 2.4L. automatic w/air.

>>have any mileage enhancements been added? would like to know the secret.

> Using full syn oil gives me another 2 mpg

No, it does not.  Dial 1-800-ASK-MOBIL and ask if their Mobil 1
synthetic improves fuel economy.  Without hesitation they told me "not
one bit."  On the other hand, most Amsoil dealers will say their oils
give better mileage, increased wealth, and eternal life (engine and
human).

In the 1970s oil companies brought out lubricants that gave 2-5% better
fuel economy than those available previously, but the amount of
improvement since then has been almost nil.  www.api.org has
information about their energy conserving (EC) ratings.
=AB Paul =BB - 30 Jun 2006 05:05 GMT
> «» wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> improvement since then has been almost nil.  www.api.org has
> information about their energy conserving (EC) ratings.

I disagree.  I have no other explanation for my car or my son's car increase in
mpg.
This was discussed here at length about two years ago.  I would actually like to
why my mileage went up about 2 mpg and has stayed there for two years.
I don't use Mobil One or Amsoil.
rantonrave@mail.com - 30 Jun 2006 11:36 GMT
«» wrote:

>Using full syn oil gives me another 2 mpg

>>No, it does not.  Dial 1-800-ASK-MOBIL and ask if their Mobil 1
>>synthetic improves fuel economy.  Without hesitation they told me "not
>>one bit."  On the other hand, most Amsoil dealers will say their oils
>>give better mileage, increased wealth, and eternal life (engine and
>>human).

>I disagree.  I have no other explanation for my car or my son's car increase in
>mpg.

It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree; the facts don't change
to match our opinions.

Why would Mobil say its synthetic does not improve gas mileage "one
bit," especially when it sells for 2-3 times the price of its
conventional oil and therefore gives Mobil a strong incentive to have
customers buy synthetic (they advertise Mobil 1 much more than their
conventional oils)?

>This was discussed here at length about two years ago.  I would actually like to
>why my mileage went up about 2 mpg and has stayed there for two years.
>I don't use Mobil One or Amsoil.

The main causes of improved fuel economy are engine break-in, traffic
conditions, and driving habits.

Before the days when computers regulated engine idle speed, it was
common for the idle of a new engine to increase after the first
5,000-10,000 miles of driving because the engine had broken in and
loosened,  and I remember my carbureted Corolla needing its base idle
decreased by 200 RPM when it was a year old.    The Toyota manual said
the idle didn't have to be adjusted after 30,000 miles, indicating
engine friction didn't improve significantly after this..
Computer-controlled cars automatically make the adjustments, and some
are also programmed to make arbitrary changes at 30,000-60,000 miles.

Traffic conditions have been shown to make fuel economy commonly differ
by over 2:1, and driving habits can make a large difference in city
fuel economy.  Measurements taken by my employer showed city mileage
differed by 20% for the same vehicles driven over the same city routes
at the same times of day.  I strongly suspect your 2 MPG improvement
was caused by changing traffic conditions and, more importantly,
driving habits, but to find out for sure, have somebody put
conventional oil in your engine without your knowledge.   The test
won't be valid if you know of any change because it's been found that
drivers unconsciously change habits significantly when gas-saving
chemicals or gadgets are installed, whether they're completely useless
or not.

Frankly if you achieved a 2 MPG improvement solely due to using
synthetic oil, GM would be putting synthetic in all their vehicles so
they could sell more gas guzzlers and still meet CAFE standards.  But
as matters stand, they specify synthetic for only a few
high-performance engines, and with at least one of them it saves GM
some money by allowing the elimination of an oil cooler.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 30 Jun 2006 13:45 GMT
>Using full syn oil gives me another 2 >mpg

some m p g might be gained by using synthetic oil (speculative) in fact
some synthetic oil "blenders" label their oil as doing so.

but the best mileage increase that I have ever had was with Arco
Graphite motor oil, w/a conventional oil base (since discontinued). this
oil had everything going for it, but never become a mass buyer's item,
what a shame..

Royal Purple synthetic motor oil is touted as being a real quality motor
oil with friction fighting additive pkg. - that adds more m p g.

>mho
>v fe

>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
rantonrave@mail.com - 01 Jul 2006 03:58 GMT
>>Using full syn oil gives me another 2 >mpg

>some m p g might be gained by using synthetic oil (speculative) in fact
>some synthetic oil "blenders" label their oil as doing so.

>but the best mileage increase that I have ever had was with Arco
>Graphite motor oil, w/a conventional oil base (since discontinued). this
>oil had everything going for it, but never become a mass buyer's item,
>what a shame..

>Royal Purple synthetic motor oil is touted as being a real quality motor
>oil with friction fighting additive pkg. - that adds more m p g.

Back in the late 1970s, Exxon and ARCO claimed their Uniflo and
ARCOgraphite oils provided 4.5% better fuel economy, but in the past 20
years no major oil companies have made similar claims, except to label
their oils EC (energy conserving), which means they provide an economy
improvement of 0.5-1.4% (depends on viscosity range) over non-EC oils.
There was also an older designation, EC-II, to indicate a 2.7%
improvement, but I believe it's obsolete and not comparable to current
EC ratings.

I used ARCOgraphite in a Dodge Dart Slant Six from the time the oil was
first put on the market until it could be found only at Chrysler
dealers. My oil analysis metal wear numbers were always low, and I
found no varnish under the valve cover as I had with ordinary SF-rated
oil.  My gas mileage rose from 21-23 MPG to 24-25 MPG, but I suspect
much of that was due to switching over to radial tires (not standard
equipment when the car was bought), which reduce rolling friction by
approximately 1/3 over bias tires.
Don Stauffer - 30 Jun 2006 14:36 GMT
While most of the tricks I see in the media on boosting your milage with
driving tricks, there is one that I see so often that is not true.

This "trick" says to be VERY easy on throttle, barely cracking it.  This
is not true, especially with stick shift.

If it were not for "power enrichening,"  spark-ignition engines would be
most efficient at full throttle.  But because of such enrichening, max
specific fuel efficiency comes at around two-thirds to three-quarters
throttle.

With stick shift this means a good amount of throttle, say half or so,
but short shifting, keeping rpm down.

Unfortunately, throttle position with an automatic can change shift
points, causing upshifts to be at higher rpm.

However, even so, best fuel efficiency even in automatic still requires
far more than merely cracking throttle above idle.  Probably with most
cars it would be about a third to half open or so.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 30 Jun 2006 16:56 GMT
>Don Stauffer

I drive anytime that I can on the basis of the more m p h at the least r
p ms, city or highway, as quickly as I can.

remember the old saying, when there was only stick shifts, get in 3rd
gear as quick as you can, and some would skip second?

I would assume the same applies today in a different way.

it stands to reason that the more r p m you turn, the more gas you are
using,

and when the ratio of rpm to mph is the greatest, the better off one is
from the gas savings standpoint, at a sensible speed.

and as you said - an engine (small) is most efficient at near top speed.  

but 15 mpg in city driving is a "drag".

>mho
>v fe

>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
Don Stauffer - 01 Jul 2006 14:39 GMT
> and as you said - an engine (small) is most efficient at near top speed.  

No, I said wide open throttle would be max efficiency without power
enrichening, about 2/3 throttle with it.

Throttle opening and speed are only connected at steady state
conditions, i.e, cruising.  During acceleration, there is no fixed
relationship between throttle opening and rpm.  Say you shift early.
Say the rpm is 1500.  You can open throttle wide and the engine will NOT
jump immediately to red line.  In fact, as it increases in rpm, you will
be shifting into next higher gear, so rpm NEVER goes very high if you
are driving for economy.

Yes, engine friction and loss of volumetric efficiency hurts milage at
high rpm.  The volumetric efficiency loss hurts thermal efficiency.

One misunderstanding is that during thermo classes, when we study gas
engine efficiency, we for convenience substitute the geometric
compression ratio for the ratio of pressures at beginning and end of
power stroke, because it is much harder to find ACTUAL pressures.  But
the thermal efficiency is really a function of the ACTUAL pressure
ratio.  Loss of volumetric efficiency lowers pressure at TDC. In effect,
what throttles do is to spoil VE :-)
fiveiron@webtv.net - 01 Jul 2006 15:29 GMT
>what throttles do is to spoil VE

but a necessary evil. gotcha, easy does it, but do it, up to a point.
there are no free

rides, but at less cost when frugal moves are made. the right "timing"
is the key to better economy.

      "do you know where your tach is"

>mho
>v fe

>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
tylernt@gmail.com - 03 Jul 2006 06:27 GMT
> No, I said wide open throttle would be max efficiency without power
> enrichening, about 2/3 throttle with it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> be shifting into next higher gear, so rpm NEVER goes very high if you
> are driving for economy.

Indeed. This is one of the reasons diesels get better fuel economy than
gasoline cars, because they run WOT *all the time* and only vary the
amount of fuel injected with driver input. I trive my gas car WOT and
short-shift (2000rpm) in an attempt to improve MPG (it's an '88 so I
don't think I have any kind of WOT enrichment going on). Pity I can't
compare MPG to cracked throttle driving as my odo is broken. ;) But
that's the theory. BMW even experimented with a throttle-less gasoline
enegine but I think it was too complicated and expensive for prodcution
cars.

Modern lean-burning stratified-charge direct-injection gasoline engines
are taking a step towards diesels in this respect, but I don't think
they'll ever truly compete as they approach stochimetric from the rich
side while diesels approach from the lean side.

Just for fun, here's a comparison of VE for '80s VW engines:

http://i3.tinypic.com/16iv153.jpg
Don Stauffer - 29 Jun 2006 17:17 GMT
I have a stick shift Neon- I can better the epa rating on the car.  We
have an automatic van- we get just a little less than the rating.

With a stick shift you can do a LOT to alter the milage.  With an
automatic you can do less.  BUT--- driving style still creates a big
variation.

You lose NOTHING by coasting up to a red light instead of roaring up to
it and using heavy braking, in order to get there first and get the big
trophy.  You gain no advantage by tailgating and thus using brakes more.
 There are lots of other things drivers do that waste gas.  Yet we
scream about the price of it :-(

> Consumer Reports finds vehicles often get worse gas mileage than the
> figures listed on the manufacturer's sticker, especially for city
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
fiveiron@webtv.net - 29 Jun 2006 19:51 GMT
thanks for all the helpful comments. it is real disappointing when one
only gets 2/3 of the epa mileage rating.

is there a "chip" or something that the car can be retrofitted with to
increase the mpg factor?

spark plugs have a definite bearing on m p g .

WHAT IS PAUL'S SECRET?

when identical cars in city traffic gets DIFFERENT MILEAGE i e, 22 and
15 mpg, that's not understandable either.

>mho
>v fe

>"reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"
Scott Dorsey - 29 Jun 2006 20:23 GMT
>when identical cars in city traffic gets DIFFERENT MILEAGE i e, 22 and
>15 mpg, that's not understandable either.

It's perfectly understandable.  One driver is more aggressive than the other
and is using the air conditioning.  The difference in driving styles can make
ENORMOUS differences in mileage over the same conditions.
--scott

Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

thecombustionkid - 29 Jun 2006 23:32 GMT
> >when identical cars in city traffic gets DIFFERENT MILEAGE i e, 22 and
> >15 mpg, that's not understandable either.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

What you said about the air-conditioner running...Texas Department of
Transportation had recently (as in only months) put out the statistic
to show if having the windows down or having the a/c running alters
mpg. What they found was that having the windows down "supposedly"
creates enough drag on the car to reduce gas milage, if not then equal
to that of having the a/c running. How much truth there is to this...i
personally do not know. But i just wanted to throw that out there.
Maybe someone can make a comment or remark about those stats. Thanks.
rantonrave@mail.com - 30 Jun 2006 11:58 GMT
> is there a "chip" or something that the car can be retrofitted with to
> increase the mpg factor?

There used to be, but I believe all cars now have their program chips
permanently soldered in place, so instead the chip needs to be
reprogrammed.  Apparently the performance/economy programs turn off the
EGR and advance the timing, meaning you may have to switch to premium
fuel if you don't currently have to use it.

> spark plugs have a definite bearing on m p g .

Only if they're the wrong type or are worn significantly.

> WHAT IS PAUL'S SECRET?

Probably light urban driving.
Pop - 30 Jun 2006 00:27 GMT
> Consumer Reports finds vehicles often get worse gas mileage
> than the figures listed on the manufacturer's sticker,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> > "reduced driving habits - conserves gasoline"

MPG numbers are references only, for comparison between cars, not
for actual miles per gallon in real driving.  A car with a higher
mpg than another will in fact get more mpg, but the actual
numbers are meaningless.    Piss poor marketing at its best.

Pop
 
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