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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2006Help, car shutdown while driving
My town and country 2003 started to have problem lately. It starts out as the windshield wiper stop working. I changed the relay and it works. Then right afterward, while driving, the car jerks heavily. I asked a mechanic and he said it probably is the input output trans axel sensors I turn the key from off to on (but not start the engine) and it shows the engine light blinking. So, I replaced both. The light stops blinking. But at the same days that the car jerking problem started, it starts to shut down while driving. I have to wait several seconds to start it up again. Then I recall that the car lately takes longer to start when I turn the key on. Yesterday, I turned on the key, and the car seems to start, so I turn it back a little. This shuts down the car. Then I cannot turn on the car. There is no cranking noise. Just couple relay click. I measure the voltage and it shows something like 12.3 volt. I use an ODB II to read out any error code, and it says "Pass". I waited for about 5-10 minutes and open and close some doors (I don't know if it helps), then it starts again. While backing up, it stops again. It again takes several minutes before it starts again. There's no cranking or anything like that when it does not start. I then drive around a block to see if it runs. It runs fine, but I put it back in my driveway and don't dare to drive it. What could be the problem? How do I troubleshoot this problem? Thanks, -vdu > What could be the problem? How do I troubleshoot this problem? It must be an electric problem. Work forward, check power supply include all connectors from battery, etc. Maybe a thermal problem or it occurs only on knocking, try to reproduce this error. Regards, Ralf  Signaturewww.omnibusclub.de Erfinder des Abgasturboladers Dr. Alfred J. Büchi: "Die Abgase, deren noch inne-wohnende Energie bis dahin vergeudet wurde ..." I'm thinking the ignition switch itself, or it's associated wiring. If the key turning does nada, there is no signal going to the related starting components, [no-crank condition]. Could be also, bad starter wiring or solenoid, hoo boy. Like Ralf says, start at battery, go to starter and ignition switch from there, see if current is occurring. You seem to have eliminated most other possible problems. SignatureKnifeblade_03 http://www.automotiveforums.com > I'm thinking the ignition switch itself, or it's associated > wiring. If the key turning does nada, there is no signal [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ignition switch from there, see if current is occurring. > You seem to have eliminated most other possible problems. I'm not so sure the module has been eliminated, has it? Also: My 95 Roadmaster has a star wiring connection underneath the underhood fuse housing that likes to loosen up; very common problem. There are so many connections coming into that star that it can cause some really interesting problems, and mine lined up real close to the OP's descrip. A mechanoc nephew told me about that. I pulled the fuse housing off, turned it over and grabbed the connections, and they felt tight, but as I did so, I noticed the underhood light flickered and the ignition key bell dinged because I'd inadvertantly left the key turned on. They didn't really feel loose, but were pretty dirty & crudded up, so I took the wires off, cleand everythign and reassembled: 100% fix to date. That was about two months ago. First garage wanted to sell me a new module. It was just bad connections. Moral: Feeling tight doesn't mean connections are good. HTH Pop clicking noise, you might check the condition of the battery, the battery terminal connections, and the battery ground wire connection to the body. sounds like a shot battery. the occasional starts might just be the result of a battery surface charge. also the x-mission "safety" system will kick-in at times, and by turning the key off, and then on, it will go into the limp-mode to let you drive to a garage. >mho >v fe fiveiron@webtv.net wrote in article <26894-44A88B8F-119@storefull-3314.bay.webtv.net>... > clicking noise, you might check the condition of the battery, the > battery terminal connections, and the battery ground wire connection to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the key off, and then on, it will go into the limp-mode to let you drive > to a garage. That isn't really what your owner's manual says, is it? "x-mission" usually refers to transmission while I believe you mean "emission." If you are going to quote your owner's manual or a Haynes repair manual, then you should quote it exactly, because when you try to make it sound as though it came from your own, personal, knowledge bank, you usually screw it up massively. >mho > >v fe Good point, pop, sort of the connection issues I was thinking of in my post. SignatureKnifeblade_03 http://www.automotiveforums.com A neighbor's Dodge was doing something similar, and she took it to the dealer and after $75 and all day in the shop told her they had no idea what was happening...it wouldn't act up for them... I took her to go pick it up after the dealer was closed, and it wouldn't start. While checking the connections to the battery I noticed a hairline crack in the neg cable clamp...replaced the cable end, it's been fine since... Check your connections, starting from the battery and working out to primary power from the starter to ignition, to fusebox...etc....you'll find it. It's usually something so simple, you overlook it.... Signaturejeffcoslacker http://www.automotiveforums.com I had a mercury sable and experienced the same kind of problem. It was the ECM, I had to replace it and did not happen again. good luck!! > My town and country 2003 started to have problem lately. It starts out > as the windshield wiper stop working. I changed the relay and it [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > -vdu Thank you all for helping. I think I make lot of progress in finding out what the problem is here. According to Haynes manual, I following the trouble shoot procedure. Because when I turn the key, there's no cranking, but there's a click sound. So I assume that's the solenoid clicks. It says the problem is either the battery, the main solenoid contacts, or the start motor itself. Next, it says to check the solenoid, locate and remove the starter relay from the PDC. Connect a remote starter between the battery and terminal 87 of the starter relay connector. If the starter motor operates when the remote switch is activated, the solenoid is OK and the problem is in the ignition switch, neutral start switch, starter relay or the wiring. So, I takes the relay out, turn on the ignition key, and then connect between the battery + terminal and the terminal 87 of the relay. When I do this, the engine is cranking. From this, I conclude that the starter motor is good and the solenoid is good. Chances is the ignition switch is good (because all other lights and windows are on when I turn on the key). I switch the relay with the front blower relay (same relay part id), the problem is still there. So I conclude that the relay is probably not the problem (I can further test this relay if not sure). So, it's remained to be the neutral start switch. This is another thing attached to the transmission. I replaced the two input/output speed sensor. One of them failed. I think this one also fails. I think the source of failure due to my recent change of the transmission oil. I put back 4 quarts ATF+4 from advance auto parts (it says it's compatible with Mopar ATF+4). I think some of the silicone (from the sealant of the bottom pan) may have get there and screw things up (I see some black stuff on one of the sensor I took out mentioned above). The problem I have is that I don't know if the amount of oil is enough or not. I clearly took out a little more then 4 quarts. However, if I use the stick to check the oil level while the engine is running hot, the oil goes way pass max level. But if I take out 4 quarts, and put back 4 quarts, how could that be too much? I remembered the previous time I changed the transmission oil (before this time), the car has problem of shifting gear. I talked to a mechanic and he told me to put more oil. I did, and the problem goes away. So it does not seem to be that the oil level is too high before I change the oil last time. I'll update my progress more next time, Vdu I just talked to the mechanic again (he's a cousin of mine, from another state), and he said it's very likely to be the starter. This is really confusing though. The book says if it's cranking, it's not the solenoid, but either the ignition switch, neutral start switch, starter relay or the wiring. This guy is very experienced though. He own a garage and he's making living by fixing car for more than 15 years. I think I'll try to replace the starter motor and see if it works. I hope that I can either test out the starter motor or can return the new one if the problem does not go away. I took the starter and solenoid (together as a unit) to Advance Auto Parts. They tested them and said it works fine. Now, it seems my options are limited. It's either the transmission range switch (part and neutral switch), the wires somewhere, or the starter switch. If it's the starter switch, then why when I turn the key to starting position, I hear a click in front (probably from a relay). If it's some wire, then from the relay box to the starter is ok, because I can wire them from the battery directly to the relay terminal and it cranks. If it's the park and neutral switch, I have to find a way to test it out because it's a pain to take it out. First, I have to open the transmission oil pan which means to change the transmission oil, which I just did last month. Second, the oil cost a lot (ATF+4), so it's better be the reason before I replace it. I also have to use silicone for the gasket, which means I have to scape out the old one. Not to complaint, but to say that I have to test this things for sure before I replace it. I probably will find way to test the park and neutral switch before continue on this. I think I was able to test the park and neutral switch. The problem I had was that I couldn't find the 4 connectors for the Powertrain Control Module. It turns out that my car is SBEC (single board electronic control) type. So, using the right reference, I was able to identify most of the stuffs needed for troubling shoot the whole thing. My conclusion is that the park and range switch is bad. When in neutral and park position, with ignition key off, it's about 15 ohms between the ground and the output (measure at the PCM connector). When it's in other positions, it's above 400 ohms. Unless the power train diagnostic book is wrong, the correct reading for other position is below 10 ohms. The problem now is that if at parking, and the ohm reading is correct for this position, shouldn't it be enough for me to start the car? I probably will replace the switch. However, I'll wait a bit more, to see if I have any further idea to confirm this fact. several years ago i had a datsun 200sx that had a similar sounding problem. did all the tests w/ the starter/solenoid--each worked. checked al lthe other connectiosn, fuses, relauys, etc--all ok. i was really stumped. turned out the solenoid worked, but the heat shield was missing, causing the solenoid to heat up, so when the car was cold in the am, it was fine, if i ran a quick errand, it would not start. if i went somewhere and it sat for a while (about an hour perhaps), then it would start fine. i threw a new heat shield between the solenoid and the exhaust header and that solved the problem! Thanks for sharing your story. My car would not start at all now. I check the diagnostic book for transmission, and they have another long test for this park and neutral switch (transmission range sensor). The problem is that the book is for NGC and EATX type (if I remember them correctly). These have 4 pins for the powertrain control module (PCM), while I could only find 1 in mine car. I know for sure that my car also have 4 outputs (from looking at the connector for this sensor). However, I don't know where these wire go, so I don't know how to test them. I can only locate 1 wire so far. I am thinking of replacing this right now. Only problem right now is that I am still not very sure if this is the problem (I need a sure way to test to say that this is the problem, not the PCM failed or anything like that). I also found out that my local Chrysler dealer no longer sell ATF+4. The ATF+4 compatible at advanced auto parts that I used last time may have caused me all these headache. > several years ago i had a datsun 200sx that had a similar sounding > problem. did all the tests w/ the starter/solenoid--each worked. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > i threw a new heat shield between the solenoid and the exhaust header > and that solved the problem! Please give me some idea here. My car is still not starting. When I turn on the ignition switch, I just hear a click on a relay. This is not the same as the starter relay. It's one next to it. Below is my summary of my findings: 1) The starter motor is good. This is based on the following observations: - I brought it to the advance auto parts, and they tested and said it's good - I hard wire the starter relay and the engine cranks 2) The starter relay is good. This is because I tested it steps by steps using a guide book, and it pass all steps 3) The ignition switch is good (please tell me if my assumption is wrong). This assumption is due to the followings: the starter relay has 4 pins, 85, 86, 30, 87. Pin 85 comes from the PCM (starter relay control), pin 86 comes from the ignition switch, pin 30 comes from the battery, pin 87 goes to the start motor. If I turn the key to the start position, pin 86 has 12.x volt. Pin 30 also has 12.x volt. These are good. The problem is pin 85 has 12.x volt. This means no current for the starter relay, and it won't close the path of pin 30 and 87, so starter motor does not crank. If I ground pin 85, the engine cranks (this also points out that the relay is good). 4) The wire from the ignition switch is good, because pin 86 has 12.x volt. 5) The wire from the batter to the pin 30 is good, because it has 12.x volt. 6) The wire from the relay to the starter motor is good, because I can crank it by hardwire the relay pin 30 and 87. 7) It's not the battery, because I can crank the engine if I hardwire the starter relay. 8) The problem come from the PCM pin 85. So, why it has 12.x volt. >From the factory service book, I see that one thing that affect this would be the transmission range sensor (TRS). I replaced, this, and the engine still does not crank. So, could it be the wire the come from the TRS, or the PCM (the main computer of the car), or anything else that cal lead to this problem? I hope the PCM is not the problem. It cost a bunch of $, and it needs retrained (which needs the DRB III, which costs > $3000). This means it probably requires me to bring it to the dealer. The car can not start though, so I need it to be hauled. This is real bad. Since I had a bad experience with the local dealer, do you think other auto shop can fix this type of problem? I remember that I used an ODB II to read DTC and it says no code. I'll check that again. Looking at the electrical diagram, I don't know where else to troubleshoot the problem. My car is not starting. It will start if I ground pin 85 of the starter relay while the ignition switch is in the start position. If I turn the key to the start position, pin 86 has 12V. Pin 85 also has 12V. Why does it have 12V? ____________________________________________________ READ THIS WITH A UNIFORM-SPACE FONT (COURIER/LUCIDA): This is my guess at the circuit you described: STARTER RELAY __________ | contacts | | | BATTERY ====(30)|====/ /===|(87)=======STARTER | | IGN SW -----(86)|--\/\/\/--|(85)-------PCM?/SRC?/??? | coil | |__________| Pin 85 must be grounded and Pin 86 must see 12V for the coil to be energized. When Pin 85 is grounded, coil current will flow and coil resistance will reduce Pin 85 to Zero Volts. The wire from Pin 85 goes to some safety device which is supposed to ground that wire, thereby giving permission for the starter relay to operate. From your description, Pin 85 is never getting grounded. You might try: 1.) Checking the wire for a bad connector at each end, corroded terminals at either end, or a break inside. 2.) Checking the device at the other end of the wire. In an emergency you could just connect Pin 85 to a ground. The key would then start the car, but the permissive safety features would be bypassed or disabled. Good luck. Rodan. I'm with Rodan. You'll have to trace that wire that goes to the #85 and find exactly where it goes and what it does. You'll also need to find what other wires/sensors the wire may be affected by. Saftey nuetral switch is the first thing to look at. Make sure it works and is properly adjusted since they can be moved around a little. Also, does your car have an OEM alarm or theft device? Signatureponchonutty http://www.automotiveforums.com Thank you, Rodan and ponchonutty, for your replies. Rodan - yes, your diagram is correct. Pin 85 goes to the PCM. I'll trace to see if there's a short along the line from the relay to the PCM. I did ground this pin and the engine cranks, but the car did not start after about 3 seconds of cranking. Beside safety, I wonder if just ground this wire is good enough for starting the car. Last night, I tried to read error code again using a different scanner. There was no error code. I just replaced the park and neutral switch, and the problem is still there. The car has alarm, but I am not sure if it has anything more than that about anti-theft. The radio does not need code, so no anti-theft there. My problem right now is that Pin 85 goes to the PCM, and if there's no short between the PCM and the power distribution center (where the starter relays sits), then I don't know how to get further with this PCM. My plan is to read the diagram again from the service manual to see if there's anymore hint. I just hope that the PCM does not fail. Last night I also wonder if Pin 86 is the one supposed to be grounded and Pin 85 is the the 12 V one. But according to Rodan, it does not seem to be the case. Also, I have to check the digram, because as I remember, Pin 86 is the one supposed be 12 V when turn on the key to start. I'll keep my progress posted. A very good news. I found an open and the car runs now. It was more complicated than that. After I found and fixed the open a while back, the car still didn't run. Then I tested the PCM grounds and the starter control wire and all seems good. Yesterday, I tried to force the car to at least crank again by grounding the starter control pin. It surprised me that it didn't start. So, check again and this time, the starter line is cold. I know that something different is going on. But the ignition switch line is easier to track because it doesn't go throught the computer. I look through the fuse box, and it's open for the ignition. I am not sure when this fuse burnt but it must have happened after the last time I crank the engine and testing this circuit, and before I fixed the open line. I am sure that this wasn't the case in the beginning, because the pin 86 of the starter relay was 12.x volt. It really throws me off because I thought it was good, and after fixed the open line and the car still didn't work, I was looking for some other leads. Anyway, this is a good news for me. I got the car running fine now. Thanks all for trying to help me out and share your story. > A very good news. I found an open and the car runs now. I have a completely unrelated question. You mentioned using silicone sealer on the transmission pan. Is that permitted? My Toyota book warns specifically against doing that, and I've read that bits of silicone rubber can break off and get into the valve body. I would follow the manufacturer service manual. For the Chrysler above, the manual asks to use silicone (I carefully bought it from the dealer wich cost a little more, I am not sure it's any different from auto part store). I used gasket before, and it leaks after several months. Your case could be different. I also fear the rubber could cause damage other places, but because I had the leak problem, I had to follow the maker's advice. You should follow their advice if they warn so. For these things, I would use the dealer's stuffs because it does cost much, and save money and headach later. What you wrote is very interesting, and it would be nice for some expert to clarify this. I am sure my car does not work with gasket because I tried it, and would not do that again. > > A very good news. I found an open and the car runs now. > > I have a completely unrelated question. You mentioned using silicone > sealer on the transmission pan. Is that permitted? My Toyota book > warns specifically against doing that, and I've read that bits of > silicone rubber can break off and get into the valve body. |
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