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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2006

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How to raise rpm when A/C is on?

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Yvan@office - 20 Jul 2006 09:28 GMT
I have '87 BMW 316 carb engine. I bought complete A/C set from a wrecked
car, and am about to fit it in mine (without factory installed A/C).

One of the problems I am facing is how to raise rpm to compensate for
additional load when A/C compressor is on.

My idea is to try to cut vacuum to the "throttle governor" (term from
Haynes carb manual - it is part 11 CONTROL BOX here:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=1051&mospid=47249&btnr=13_0078&hg=
13&fg=05


with vacuum hose disconnected engine revs should be ~1800 rpm. Perhaps I
can use some electrically controlled valve that will cut vacuum supply
when I turn on A/C.

Also from Haynes carb manual for my Pierburg 1B carb it seems that there
is some "idle speed air valve" that is controlled by "idle speed boost
valve" fitted to VW HZ engines. "As load is placed upon the engine, and
the speed falls below 700 rpm, the air valve admits extra air... and
the idle speed is increased". But how to find that valve?

Anyone with a better idea? Or someone with carb engine and A/C that can
describe how it is done (raising rpm)?

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ninebal310@aol.com - 20 Jul 2006 10:33 GMT
> I have '87 BMW 316 carb engine. I bought complete A/C set from a wrecked
> car, and am about to fit it in mine (without factory installed A/C).
>
> One of the problems I am facing is how to raise rpm to compensate for
> additional load when A/C compressor is on.

Install a solenoid to the throttle arm. When you kick on the A/C, it
will boost RPM at any rate you adjust the solenoid in the bracket to.
Solenoid should be easily found at parts store. Making and adapting the
bracket to hold the solenoid may be tricky, but it may be a piece of
cake too. Anyway, that's what I would do.

Hank
Yvan@office - 20 Jul 2006 13:51 GMT
Nedavno ninebal310@aol.com pise:

> Install a solenoid to the throttle arm. When you kick on the A/C, it
> will boost RPM at any rate you adjust the solenoid in the bracket to.
> Solenoid should be easily found at parts store.

English is not my native language. What exactly do you mean by solenoid?
I thought it is, for example, a part of relay that makes things move
when you connect it to electrical current. Am I right? Perhaps a link
to a photo?

> Making and adapting
> the bracket to hold the solenoid may be tricky, but it may be a piece
> of cake too. Anyway, that's what I would do.

I was thinking about that too, I just would like to see a photo of
similar device. That is why I posted my question.

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Kevin - 20 Jul 2006 10:47 GMT
>I have '87 BMW 316 carb engine. I bought complete A/C set from a wrecked
> car, and am about to fit it in mine (without factory installed A/C).
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Anyone with a better idea? Or someone with carb engine and A/C that can
> describe how it is done (raising rpm)?

Don't take this wrong, but if you bought a "complete A/C kit " from a
wrecked car, why did you not also get the throttle kicker from that car as
well? If the donor car was a different model and did not have such a devise,
then what makes you so sure very thing else is going to fit exactly as it
should on your car. I only say this because I have been down this road more
than once when some of my students have wanted to do this on various cars in
the past. It has always turned into a nightmare because unless the two cars
were exact identical makes with all the same equipment, there always turned
out to be some reason the job required a lot of engineering which was beyond
the capabilities of the students.  I was usually able to engineer some way
for the job to get done, but it often required a great deal more of my time
than I could spare along with the other duties I needed to take care of.  If
you have very good mechanical aptitude and excellent engineering skills
along with resources to all the necessary machine shop facilities, I am sure
you will figure out something. You might even get lucky and run across
someone here who has actually done this before on your same make and model,
and has just what you need, but I doubt it.

Having said all that, I can only advise that your first quest should be a
better repair manual that is more detailed on the operation and service of
you model car. Perhaps a copy of the manufacturer's repair manual. Once you
understand how idle speed is controlled and know the parts locations, then
it might not be to difficult to accomplish the task.

BTW, if you are going to get some good help with this project on this forum
you should probably post back with a more complete detail of the car. Such
information as the size engine, type transmission. and other optional
equipment could make a difference on what you will need.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

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Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green

Yvan@office - 20 Jul 2006 13:51 GMT
Nedavno Kevin pise:

> Don't take this wrong, but if you bought a "complete A/C kit " from a
> wrecked car, why did you not also get the throttle kicker from that
> car as well? If the donor car was a different model and did not have
> such a devise

That is the reason why.

> then what makes you so sure very thing else is going to
> fit exactly as it should on your car.

I believe that I will have problems getting it to work. But not to many,
as the only difference (that I knew of) is th engine. I have
carburetor, the other car had fuel injection.

> I only say this because I have
> been down this road more than once when some of my students have
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> before on your same make and model, and has just what you need, but I
> doubt it.

You probably right, I expect to bump into more problems as I start to
work, but I think I have time to spare, and I hope I can finish this
(if I do not finish it will not be the first time :-(

> Having said all that, I can only advise that your first quest should
> be a better repair manual that is more detailed on the operation and
> service of you model car. Perhaps a copy of the manufacturer's repair
> manual.

I have Haynes, Bentley and some German manual. And some nice person at
alt.autos.bmw group offered to mail me relevant (A/C) part of factory
repair manual. So I think I have a lot of information.

> Once you understand how idle speed is controlled and know the
> parts locations, then it might not be to difficult to accomplish the
> task.

I already have the idea, the reason I am asking is that someone has
better one. Also I want to knew how this was done before FI (where I am
I can not find that since I do not knew anyone with A/C and carb
engine).

> BTW, if you are going to get some good help with this project on this
> forum you should probably post back with a more complete detail of the
> car. Such information as the size engine, type transmission. and other
> optional equipment could make a difference on what you will need.

It's '87 BMW E30 316 M10 1.6 liter engine with Pierburg 1B2 carburetor.
Manual transmission (why is transmission type important?) I do not have
any optional equipment.

A/C is manual - no digital temp display, just a on/off switch and
temperature knob.

> Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Thank you. I will. I will start to work on it in September.

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halatos@gmail.com - 20 Jul 2006 16:29 GMT
> I have '87 BMW 316 carb engine. I bought complete A/C set from a wrecked
> car, and am about to fit it in mine (without factory installed A/C).
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> My idea is to try to cut vacuum to the "throttle governor" (term from
> Haynes carb manual - it is part 11 CONTROL BOX here:

On carbureted models it has been my experience that there is usually a
vacuum operated dashpot/solenoid that opens the throttle slightly to
keep the idle speed constant when the AC compressor kicks on. I saw
this setup on an 80's datsun and I have a dashpot/opener combination on
the monster feedback carburetor on my 88 mitsubishi pickup. Usually one
of the manifold vacuum taps feeds to a vacuum solenoid, which is
electrically in series with the AC compressor. Compressor kicks on,
solenoid opens, which passes vaccum to the dashpot/solenoid, which then
opens the throttle just enough to hold the same idle speed. Most have
an adjustment via pushrod or stop screw.

Adapting your own version of this system into your vehicle is going to
be a big challenge. I would suggest scouring the junkyard for the parts
that are for your specific model to make the idle-up work properly.
Alternatively, you could just raise the idle speed 100-150rpm and
forget about the load of the ac compressor. Sure, the car will idle a
little fast without the AC engaged but that's a small price to pay for
having it all 'work' without a bunch of work....

Chris
Yvan@office - 21 Jul 2006 07:39 GMT
Nedavno halatos@gmail.com pise:

> Alternatively, you could just raise the idle speed 100-150rpm and
> forget about the load of the ac compressor.

Is that enough? I have small 1.6 liter engine.

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larry moe 'n curly - 22 Jul 2006 07:49 GMT
> I have '87 BMW 316 carb engine. I bought complete A/C set from a wrecked
> car, and am about to fit it in mine (without factory installed A/C).

> Also from Haynes carb manual for my Pierburg 1B carb it seems that there
> is some "idle speed air valve" that is controlled by "idle speed boost
> valve" fitted to VW HZ engines. "As load is placed upon the engine, and
> the speed falls below 700 rpm, the air valve admits extra air... and
> the idle speed is increased". But how to find that valve?

Have you looked around the throttle plate(s)?  I don't know if it
attaches directly to the carburetor or to hoses on each side of the
plate(s).

Increasing the idle speed by 150 RPM may be enough because my 1986
carbureted Corolla had a vacuum-operated diaphram that raised the idle
speed that much when accessories were turned on.
Yvan - 22 Jul 2006 20:58 GMT
> Increasing the idle speed by 150 RPM may be enough because my 1986
> carbureted Corolla had a vacuum-operated diaphram that raised the idle
> speed that much when accessories were turned on.

So idle speed is increased by 150 rpm with accessories turned on? So if i
raise idle speed with A/C off that may not be enough to compensate
additional load when it is turned on?

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larry moe 'n curly - 23 Jul 2006 04:43 GMT
> > Increasing the idle speed by 150 RPM may be enough because my 1986
> > carbureted Corolla had a vacuum-operated diaphram that raised the idle
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> raise idle speed with A/C off that may not be enough to compensate
> additional load when it is turned on?

The idle speed was raised 150 RPM with the accessories turned off.

Is it possible that the device that regulates your BMW's idle speed has
a vacuum leak or is clogged with deposits left by oil or gasoline
vapors?

I'm not at all familiar with BMWs, but is there some kind of
electrically-operated vacuum valve that's supposed to be opened or
closed  when the A/C is turned on?  Because I found that some cars have
such a device even when they have an idle speed regulator or idle
kick-up device.

Have you tried any of the websites that specialize in BMWs, such as
www.bimmerforums.com or www.bmwforums.com ?
Yvan@office - 24 Jul 2006 08:21 GMT
Nedavno larry moe 'n curly pise:

>> So idle speed is increased by 150 rpm with accessories turned on? So
>> if i raise idle speed with A/C off that may not be enough to
>> compensate additional load when it is turned on?
>
> The idle speed was raised 150 RPM with the accessories turned off.

OK, I can live with slightly higher idle rpm. 150 rpm higher than normal
is not too much for my ears.

> Is it possible that the device that regulates your BMW's idle speed
> has a vacuum leak or is clogged with deposits left by oil or gasoline
> vapors?

I have Pierburg 1B2 carburetor, and there is no idle speed regulator.
You just set idle mixture and adjust idle bleed screw to get ~800 +- 50
rpm, and that's it. If I had factory installed A/C there would probably
be some idle speed regulator.

> I'm not at all familiar with BMWs, but is there some kind of
> electrically-operated vacuum valve that's supposed to be opened or
> closed  when the A/C is turned on?  Because I found that some cars
> have such a device even when they have an idle speed regulator or idle
> kick-up device.

That is what I am looking for. Some photos, description, possible part
numbers of such device. Where I am it is not easy to get such
information.

> Have you tried any of the websites that specialize in BMWs, such as
> www.bimmerforums.com or www.bmwforums.com ?

I tried alt.autos.bmw, and response was same as it was here. Few
suggestions and no links to photos or part numbers. As I wrote I plan
to start installing A/C in September, so I still have time. I will
check some BMW forums as you suggested.

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