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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / August 2006

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A/c completely dead, need advice

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Masospaghetti - 11 Aug 2006 15:32 GMT
Hey all,

Car is a 1986 Honda CRX. Where should I start looking for trouble if
pushing the A/C button does _nothing_? No increased idle, no condenser
fan, and obviously no cooling. the only thing that happens is the little
"A/C" light turns on.

Thanks
James
Pete C. - 11 Aug 2006 17:18 GMT
> Hey all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks
> James

Take it to a reputable shop, or buy a service manual. Might want to
spend the $15 on a service manual first anyway so you can check the
simpler stuff yourself. Either way, if the system needs evac and
recharge you're going to need to bring it to a shop for that due to
freon regulations.

I recently repaired the A/C on my truck. I took it to a shop for
diagnosis which revealed leaking compressor seals. I couldn't justify
the cost to replace with new for a 9yr old truck so I had them leave the
system empty. I then replaced the compressor, orifice tube and
accumulator dryer myself using inexpensive rebuilt parts. Once I was
done I brought the truck back to the shop for evac and recharge.

The A/C is now working fine and I saved quite a bit of money. Of course
you can't expect the shop to warranty anything other than their
refrigerant charge, but considering the money saved I could do all the
same again and still be ahead.

Pete C.
cyberzl1@yahoo.com - 11 Aug 2006 19:38 GMT
> > Hey all,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > Thanks
> > James
Most likely due to an empty system.  The low pressure switch is
preventing the clutch from engaging.

To diagnose, find the LPS on the accumulator and jumper the connection
while the a/c is on.  If the clutch kicks in, that is the problem.
Don't run it for long.  Just verify the clutch kicks in.  If the clutch
does not engage, you have other problems.  Get a manual and a DVM and
start tracing.

With an old R-12 system, it will probably not be cost effective to get
it fixed and charged with R-12.

What I would recommend, providing you have the tools, is to convert to
R-134.

First you need to figure out where the R-12 leaked out.  Most likely on
the high pressure(hot side) of the compressor.  Probably the crimp
right next to the compressor.

Replace whatever is leaking.  Replace all of the o-rings in the system.
Replace the orifice tube.  Replace the accumulator.

Drain all of the oil you can out of the hoses/system.

You can get little adapter ports to change the R-12 ports to R-134.
Get those and screw onto your existing ports.

Fill the system with the recommended amount of PAG oil(it will say on
the compressor).

Seal the sytem up.  Evacuate the system(requires a vacuum pump).

Charge with 80% of the recommended charge for R-12 with R-134a.

Enjoy the cold.
Masospaghetti - 12 Aug 2006 04:25 GMT
>>> Hey all,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Most likely due to an empty system.  The low pressure switch is
> preventing the clutch from engaging.

The system has plenty of refrigerant. I would have expected that the at
least the condenser fan and boosted idle to kick in if it was just low
on refrigerant.

I tried jumping the clutch relay and the compressor engages. the system
actually cools extremely well.

I figured it would be low refrigerant when I first saw the car too, but
I pushed on the low-side schrader and got a huge blast coming out.

> To diagnose, find the LPS on the accumulator and jumper the connection
> while the a/c is on.  If the clutch kicks in, that is the problem.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Enjoy the cold.

thanks for the advice.
Pete C. - 12 Aug 2006 04:59 GMT
> >>> Hey all,
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> thanks for the advice.

Would have been helpful to include that information in the original
post, we aren't mind readers. At any rate if you've traced the problem
that far it would seem the problem is the clutch relay, one of the
pressure switches the wiring from the pressure switches or the switch on
the dash. A factory wiring diagram would be a big help in isolating it.

Depending on the vehicle you may be able to replace some of the pressure
switches without having to evacuate and recharge the system, but you'll
need the manual to tell you that. If not you'll need to take it
somewhere to have them recover the refrigerant so you can change the
switch and then have them put the refrigerant back if you find the
switch is at fault.

Pete C.
John S. - 12 Aug 2006 13:59 GMT
Is there some reason you didn't include this in the first message?  The
first message reads like someone who knows nothing about cars.

> >>> Hey all,
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> thanks for the advice.
Masospaghetti - 12 Aug 2006 15:13 GMT
I just wanted to know what could cause the system to be _completely_
dead, because usually the fans at least turn on. I tried posting about a
week ago with a hugely long description and didn't get a single response.

i've gone through and tested the following components, which tested OK:

low pressure switch
a/c thermostat
a/c delay timer
a/c relay
clutch relay
a/c clutch
a/c diode
radiator fan relay
a/c switch

none of the relays are even getting a signal. is there some control box
that the button goes to that might be bad?

Thanks
-James

> Is there some reason you didn't include this in the first message?  The
> first message reads like someone who knows nothing about cars.
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>>>
>> thanks for the advice.
Pete C. - 12 Aug 2006 16:31 GMT
> I just wanted to know what could cause the system to be _completely_
> dead, because usually the fans at least turn on. I tried posting about a
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Thanks
> -James

In at least some vehicles the A/C command from the dash switch routes
through the ECM and then to the A/C compressor clutch relay. This allows
the ECM to disengage the A/C clutch momentarily during hard acceleration
/ high engine load to recover the HP used by the A/C compressor and give
better performance.

You could have a failed connection in wiring to / from the ECM, or you
could potentially have a blown output on the ECM which could be and ECM
failure itself, or be caused by a short circuit further downstream that
could kill another ECM output if the ECM is replaced without resolving
the real problem.

Again a factory wiring diagram or at least a look at one to collect the
relevant information would be a big help here.

Pete C.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 14 Aug 2006 08:48 GMT
> > Hey all,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> accumulator dryer myself using inexpensive rebuilt parts. Once I was
> done I brought the truck back to the shop for evac and recharge.

I've done this myself before, however I have a leak detector, vacuum
pump and guage set, flush gun and can do everything without paying a
shop.  Keep in mind that if you get 2 years out of an inexpensive rebuilt
compressor, your doing pretty good.

Ted
Pete C. - 14 Aug 2006 12:51 GMT
> > > Hey all,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Ted

Do you also have a refrigerant recovery / recycling unit and EPA cert.
for refrigerant? I can't justify the time / money / effort for those
given the couple times a decade I might use them. Easier to have the
shop recover, I do the work on the empty system and then have them evac
and recharge.

Pete C.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 15 Aug 2006 07:24 GMT
> > > > Hey all,
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> shop recover, I do the work on the empty system and then have them evac
> and recharge.

Well, since I'm not cutting into the system unless it's not working, and
when it's not working almost always it's a result of a leak, I'm generally
not dealing with existing refrigerant in the lines.  Typical reason
compressors blow
and I've seen it many times before in used cars I've bought, is the
crimped fittings on the flexible
hoses to the compressor start to leak, then the owner gets the little
chargette cans and starts filling up the system every summer, meantime the
oil level in the system gets lower and lower then bang - compressor
seizes one day, and then they give up refilling it.  By the time the
vehicle comes into my claws the A/C system has sat open to atmosphere
for years.

Fortunately I do NOT own a vehicle where you have to disconnect
the A/C lines to remove a minor item.

As for evacing and recharging, my observation was that back when
I had shops doing that, they would hook up the vacuum pump for
perhaps 5 minutes, then call it boiled out.  In other words I don't trust
them to do it right.  When I evac my car A/C system, I put it under
vacuum with the pump running for at least an hour, then I let it
sit overnight under vacuum.  Then I charge immediately into the
vacuum system.

You don't need an EPA cert to purchase R134a, you can get it for $8 a
can at Walmart.

Now, I'll get on my soapbox here.

As for evacing the manifold guage when you disconnect it from the
A/C system after you finish servicing it, which you are supposed to do,
I used to feel guilty about just
venting the guage hoses to atmosphere.  Then I learned that all asthma
inhalers in the country use R134a as propellant, as do the hand held
"air" horns, the "air duster" in a can that computer techs use to blow
the dust out of your PC, and it is also used as a foaming agent for
insulation. (to make the little bubbles in it)  Outgassing of R134a from
insulation alone literally dwarfs
by an giant order of magnitude, service releases of R134a from A/C
service work every year, even if every A/C tech in the country didn't bother
to evac the service hoses.  I also really cannot bring myself to believe
the EPA scare stories that R134a might be hazardous to human health
when the medical community is venting throusands of tons of the
stuff directly into the lungs of asthma suffers every year.

If you investigate the issue you will find that one reason R134a is so
expensive now is that every year theres NEW uses for it that
are non-refrigerant, that are being developed, most that involve
eventual venting of the stuff to atmosphere.  The people getting all
worked up about using compressed CO2 in A/C systems in cars
(as some of the misguided European nations are mandating) really
have rocks in their heads, it is a gigantic, huge political thing tied
up into global warming that has really no bearing on actual use.

The EPA takes the position that everything has to be recovered in
A/C work, and I think it is a good postion, but not because I think
R134a is harmful.  It is because profesional refrigerant techs deal
with a lot of nasty A/C refrigerants all the time other than R134a,
such as R12, R22, ammonia, etc. and from a bureaucratic standpoint
it's just easier to make one rule for everything, and ignore reality.

But the reality is that the EPA has been looking for something
definitive to use to nail R134a to the wall as damaging to the
atmosphere and to life and they have been unable to find anything.
That is why they are not able to ban the sale of 14 oz R134a
cans in auto parts stores and such, even though they would
absolutely love to do so.  So, in my opinion, the EPA mandate
for reclamation and recycling of R134a is nothing more than
pure political posturing, and is being done for the benefit of
the Save-the-Whales crowd who mostly are too stupid to come
in out of the rain.

End soapbox

Ted
John S. - 11 Aug 2006 23:54 GMT
> Hey all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks
> James

Suggest that you take the car to a dealer and have them fix the car.
 
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