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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2006

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dead battery

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imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 17:53 GMT
this is dumb but...

I left my lights on overnight now my car won't start.  Dead battery I
know.  This battery is less then a year old and I am told that if i
leave it alone for a few hours it might come back to life.  Is that
possible?  I never heard of that.

Also,  once I get a boost will i likely need to buy a new battery or
will the battery recharge itself while i drive?

thanks.
Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 18:05 GMT
> this is dumb but...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> thanks.

Your *BEST* move at this point it to put a proper battery charger on it
*BEFORE* trying to drive. Depending on your alternator's capabilities, a
low/dead battery can put excess strain on the alternator, causing it to
fail as it tries to supply far more juice than it was designed for in an
effort to charge the dead battery.

If you let it sit for a while, it *MIGHT* "come back" enough to get a
start, but as mentioned above, the stress on the alternator is going to
be heavy, perhaps fatally heavy, until the battery is properly "topped
off". Having said that, yes, if the alternator survives, it will
recharge as you drive. I would advise against this, if it can be
avoided. (And no, this isn't "friend of a friend" - I've personally had
alternators puke from exactly this scenario)

Drawing it down low enough for you to be asking the question also
shortens the overall life of the battery in most cases. (Exceptions
being deep-cycle type batteries, which are built a bit differently than
"not deep-cycle" ones, and stand up to deep discharge better)

So once again, your best bet is to put it on a proper charger and top it
up completely, then do your driving.

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imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 18:10 GMT
I just worry about charging it because i'm clueless with cars.  How
long would a charge take?  I read that it isnt safe with electrical
ignition cars (or something like that), anyone know if an old Plymouth
Labaron from 86 has an electrical ignition system?

If the alternator dies the car would just stop going i guess?  is an
alternator more expensive then a battery charger?

thanks a million.

> > this is dumb but...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
> ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 18:24 GMT
> I just worry about charging it because i'm clueless with cars.  How
> long would a charge take?  I read that it isnt safe with electrical
> ignition cars (or something like that), anyone know if an old Plymouth
> Labaron from 86 has an electrical ignition system?

Done properly, charging the battery is no more hazardous to the ignition
than driving the car. If you have any doubts (and don't care about
having to reset your radio presets, clock, etc) pull the *BLACK* cable
off the battery post before hooking up the charger. How long it takes
depends on the charger and exactly how flat the battery is when you
start the charging process - Some can give you a fully topped up battery
in half an hour. Others are "overnight" units. Still others fall
somewhere in between.

> If the alternator dies the car would just stop going i guess?  

No, the battery stops charging, and you're right back where you were
when you woke up and found it dead this morning. If the battery is low
enough *AND* the alternator craps out, then yes, the engine will stop.

> is an
> alternator more expensive then a battery charger?

Just slightly...

Cheap but functional battery charger: $20 - possibly less.

Replace an alternator: $60-$120, or more, depending on source, brand,
reman vs. new, etc, for the part. Guess-timate another $60-ish and an
hour or so for a shop to put it in for you. If you've got any decent
wrenching skills (sounds like not since you claim to be clueless) you
could save the install charge by doing it yourself - It's not that hard,
really - usually two bolts, a nut, and a plug-in connector. Sometimes
just the two bolts and the plug-in connector.


> thanks a million.
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> > ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more
> > info

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imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 18:28 GMT
Here's the best part, its labour day so I can't buy a charger and
tomorrow the car has to be moved or I get a ticket.  This is perfect.
After 1 hour after turning the lights off the electric locks still
don't work.  That seems like a bad sign for it starting to work on its
own, what do you think?
Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 18:37 GMT
> Here's the best part, its labour day so I can't buy a charger

Ain't that always the way? :-P

If you've got a freind who can give you a jump-start, and has some time
on his hands, have him hook up as for a jump, then just leave the
vehicles sitting there (with his running, preferably slightly "wound up"
(about 1800-2500 RPM) ) for an hour or so. That should get enough of a
charge into your battery to take most of the worry out of "just drive it
until it recharges". Not *ALL*, but *MOST*.

> tomorrow the car has to be moved or I get a ticket.  This is perfect.
> After 1 hour after turning the lights off the electric locks still
> don't work.  That seems like a bad sign for it starting to work on its
> own, what do you think?

*VERY* bad, I'd say. Sounds like you don't have a battery anymore - it's
so flat you've actually got a pancake...

Look into getting somebody to jump you, or pull the battery and hoof it
down to the local Kragen's, Autozone, NAPA, etc. and ask 'em to put it
on the tester. (Assuming there's one open somewhere nearby)

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imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 21:02 GMT
> If you've got a freind who can give you a jump-start, and has some time
> on his hands, have him hook up as for a jump, then just leave the
> vehicles sitting there (with his running, preferably slightly "wound up"
> (about 1800-2500 RPM) ) for an hour or so. That should get enough of a
> charge into your battery to take most of the worry out of "just drive it
> until it recharges". Not *ALL*, but *MOST*.

Ok... so if I try this I need to have both cars running or just his car?
Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 21:46 GMT
> > If you've got a freind who can give you a jump-start, and has some time
> > on his hands, have him hook up as for a jump, then just leave the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Ok... so if I try this I need to have both cars running or just his car?

OK, that does it. You've *GOT* to be trolling, right?

On the rapidly slimming chance that you're on the level...
THINK ABOUT IT! If you can start your car so as to have both of them
running to put a charge on your battery, why do you want a jump in the
first place??? HELLOOOOO!!!!!

If you're actually not trolling, *PLEASE* ask the next salesman you
encounter which aisle stocks common sense. The last two posts I've seen
from you indicate a severe shortage of it in your thinking patterns.

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imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 22:01 GMT
Don, once we connect the 2 cars I'll be able to start mine right?  So,
if you're saying that i should leave his car running for an hour to
recharge my battery do I also leave mine on?

I don't see why that is a dumb question.
Steve W. - 05 Sep 2006 00:05 GMT
> Don, once we connect the 2 cars I'll be able to start mine right?  So,
> if you're saying that i should leave his car running for an hour to
> recharge my battery do I also leave mine on?
>
> I don't see why that is a dumb question.

No what Don said was Hook the other vehicle up and let IT run for an
hour or so to charge the battery in YOUR car. If you just hook up the
other vehicle and attempt to start your car immediately YOUR car will
not start since the booster cables will probably not carry enough power
for the starter to work. With the second car running with the booster
cables connected it will SLOWLY charge your battery and allow you to
start the car. Once your car is running DISCONNECT THE OTHER CAR. If you
don't you may damage BOTH vehicles. WHY? Due to the battery in your car
being dead it will draw a LOT of current when your vehicle starts. The
regulator will also ramp up the voltage some because of the battery
being dead. The higher voltage feeding back through the booster cables
might do damage to the other vehicle.

Personally I would just buy a NEW battery and install it. If your
battery has been sitting there dead and since it still is seeing a
continuous drain (computer and clock in the radio are always there)it
MAY come back to full charge but hoe long it lasts is suspect since the
typical starting battery is NOT designed to be drawn down that far.

Signature

Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

Life is not like a box of chocolates
it's more like a jar of jalapenos-
what you do today could burn your a.s tomorrow!

Scott Dorsey - 04 Sep 2006 19:53 GMT
>Here's the best part, its labour day so I can't buy a charger and
>tomorrow the car has to be moved or I get a ticket.  This is perfect.
>After 1 hour after turning the lights off the electric locks still
>don't work.  That seems like a bad sign for it starting to work on its
>own, what do you think?

What makes you think it would work on it's own?  If the battery is dead,
it isn't going to somehow take energy out of the air and charge itself.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 20:10 GMT
> >Here's the best part, its labour day so I can't buy a charger and
> >tomorrow the car has to be moved or I get a ticket.  This is perfect.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> it isn't going to somehow take energy out of the air and charge itself.
> --scott

No, it isn't, but a battery that isn't *TOTALLY* kaput can and will
recover somewhat from being drained if the drain is removed. Whether
that recovery is enough to be useful for anything is a whole different
question, but it does occur.

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BuntRVer - 04 Sep 2006 22:47 GMT
Sounds like a very dead battery that may not come back at all. However
you have stumbled onto a critcal subject, "how we MEN accumulat
tools". The battery charger would be with you for years and could b
used many more times. Even if you discover that the battery cannot b
recharged, you will end up with a battery charger "and" and ne
battery. Comeon get into the do it yourself game.

imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com Wrote:
> Here's the best part, its labour day so I can't buy a charger and
> tomorrow the car has to be moved or I get a ticket.  This is perfect.
> After 1 hour after turning the lights off the electric locks still
> don't work.  That seems like a bad sign for it starting to work on its
> own, what do you think

--
BuntRVer
Pop` - 05 Sep 2006 23:07 GMT
> Here's the best part, its labour day so I can't buy a charger and
> tomorrow the car has to be moved or I get a ticket.  This is perfect.
> After 1 hour after turning the lights off the electric locks still
> don't work.  That seems like a bad sign for it starting to work on its
> own, what do you think?

At this point, your best bet is going to be to replace the battery.  Jump
starting from another vehicle is going to be hard on THAT vehicle's
electronics if your battery is dead, or worse, shorted, so you could end up
with a bill for your friend's car on top of it all.
  In addition to that, cheapie jumper cables or old jumper cables have been
known to melt the insulation if the charge rate is high enough, which, by
the time you realize it, could have become a dead short from the hot lead to
the car chassis somewhere.

If you replace the battery and the old one turns out to still be good, you
might have an "emergency" battery to keep around and charged for the next
time something lke this happens to you or to a friend.  I'd much rather lend
a battery than use my own vehicle to start a car with a completely dead
battery, which it sounds like you might have.
  Depending on the age of your battery, it could either be a short ckt,
meaning dangerous to any vehicle's electrical sstem, or a very heavy
paperweight.
    Everytime a battery is discharged catastrophically its life becomes
shortened, in addition to normal wear & tear.  I'd call the battery a lost
cause if it's more than two years old, a maybe at one year.

In other words, your safest and least expensive bet right now is a new
battery.  Have it precharged, toss it into the car, hook it up, start the
car and go.  And put a big "Dead Battery - gone for Help" on the windshield
in the morning while you're out getting a new battery.  Often police will
give a person a break unless there's a reason to not believe the sign or
it's late afternoon.  I've had it work once.  Didn't work in the next city
though; got a ticket anyway (Chgo) that time.  I ran out of gas and took too
long getting back to the car - about an hour and a half<g>.  Jeez!

HTH
Pop`
MT-2500 - 04 Sep 2006 18:20 GMT
imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com Wrote:
> this is dumb but...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> thanks.

Yes sometimes a battery will come back up enought to start car.
But remove and recharge the battery before driving.

A good battery should charge back up.
But it is not safe to use the cars alternator to recharge a dead
battery.
It can overload and fry the alternator doing that.
Remove the battery and have it charged and tested.
And always remove neg battery cabel first and hook it up last.
If it charges back up and test ok put it back in and go.
Good Luck MT

Signature

MT-2500

http://www.automotiveforums.com

imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 18:49 GMT
Ok, well if the battery is dead, which it appears to be, there can't be
any p[oint in buying a charger or getting a boast right?  Since its not
gonna save the battery.  Isn't my only option to tow it or to buy a
battery and install it myself?  Which I wouldn't feel safe doing.
Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 19:04 GMT
> Ok, well if the battery is dead, which it appears to be, there can't be
> any p[oint in buying a charger or getting a boast right?  Since its not
> gonna save the battery.  Isn't my only option to tow it or to buy a
> battery and install it myself?  Which I wouldn't feel safe doing.

The battery is empty *NOW*. Same as when you run out of gas, your gas
tank is empty *NOW*. But unless you know there's a hole in it, you don't
go out and buy a new gas tank 'cause you ran out of gas, do you?
Why would you do so with a battery that's in essentially the same
situation? Both can be "filled up" and return to being useful, despite
the battery commonly being termed "dead".  

On the other hand, if I were to punch a screwdriver through the bottom
of your gas tank and let it drain, not only is it empty, but it's broken
too. *THAT* would be when you go looking for a new gas tank.

There's no "screwdriver hole" in your battery - It just "ran out of
gas". "Fill 'er up" and keep on driving.

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imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 19:17 GMT
Thanks Don, as I said I'm clueless with these things.  SO the cheapest
charger I've found is about 70 bucks.  I'll buy that and hope for the
best.  Do I have to remove the battery from the car?  Is it simple
enough that the instructions will  be enough for me?

You're a life saver.
do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com - 04 Sep 2006 19:37 GMT
>SO the cheapest charger I've found is about 70 bucks.

Sears, Wal-mart, Kmart, Autozone, Pep Boys, Checker/Kragen/Shuck's
should have 10 amp automatic ones for $40-60.  For any charger rated
above 3A, you want automatic since it greatly reduces the likelihood of
damaging the battery by overcharging it.  Try www.shoplocal.com or the
web sites of such stores.

> Do I have to remove the battery from the car?

No.  Just be sure to connect the red clamp to the positive terminal,
the negative to the negative terminal, and do this before plugging in
the AC power because you don't want any sparks near the battery.  Also
unplug the AC power before disconnecting the charger from the battery.
If the charger has only a 2-wire AC cord, I strongly suggest plugging
it into a wall outlet protected by a GFCI for shock protection, but if
you don't have one a plug-in GFCI can be bought for about $15 (Home
Depot sells them next to their extension cords).   Don't try starting
the car with the battery charger connected or the charger may be
damaged.
Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 19:39 GMT
> Thanks Don, as I said I'm clueless with these things.  SO the cheapest
> charger I've found is about 70 bucks.

HOLY sh.t!!!!

For that kind of price, that charger damn-well better charge batteries,
wax the car, wake me up with a bl.wj.b, immediately followed by a seven
course breakfast in bed! And do it all on nothing but sunshine and a bit
of water!

Or, if that wasn't clear enough: For the price you're getting set to lay
out on that thing, you could buy a new battery (reasonably decent brand,
even) and have enough left over for a twelve pack of beer, a pack of
smokes, and something to munch. You're looking to get robbed.

A decent, functional battery charger - nothing fancy, just a "gets it
done" rig - should run you $20 or less, and I *KNOW* Wal-mart is open
today, even if nothing else on the planet is. Heck, the charger I've got
sitting on the bench in the shop does everything - 70 amp booster, three
ranges of charge in 12 volts, three more in 6 volts, and a deep-cycle
discharge/recharge function. If I remember right, this particular unit
cost a whopping $31 and tax - And it's pretty heavily loaded with "bells
and whistles". A simple "connect the clips, plug it in, and switch it on
until the little needle over there on the left is in the green zone"
unit should be *FAR* less expensive.

> Do I have to remove the battery from the car?  

No, but if you're paranoid, pull the *BLACK* cable off the battery post
before getting started. You *CAN* pull the battery out if so desired,
but it isn't required. (unless you've got "no space to get to what I
need to mess with" issues under the hood)

> Is it simple
> enough that the instructions will  be enough for me?

Do read the directions, but basically:
Hook the red clip to the battery post with the red cable on it and/or
"+" or "POS" next to it. Hook the black clip to the post that you took
the black cable off of. (Probably marked "-" or "NEG") Plug the unit in.
Flip the switch to a position that that says "12 volts". Walk away for
half an hour or so.
 
> You're a life saver.

Nah, I'm a bilaterally symmetrical bag of protoplasm with delusions of
life :)

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imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 19:45 GMT
im in canada, that might be why its pricier?  Im not sure.

If I get a manuel charger that takes many hours can I interupt the
charge or would that screw up the battery?
Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 20:11 GMT
> im in canada, that might be why its pricier?  Im not sure.
>
> If I get a manuel charger that takes many hours can I interupt the
> charge or would that screw up the battery?

When did Canada start observing labor day??

Yes, you can stop and restart a charge cycle without any harm. (although
it MIGHT confuse the charger if it's one of the "smart" types)

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Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 20:14 GMT
> im in canada, that might be why its pricier?  Im not sure.

And a quasi-related question that came to me about 3.1 microseconds
after I hit the "send" button: You wouldn't happen to have a couple of
co-workers named Alex and Geddy, would you? :)

(Nah... Couldn't be... He wouldn't be driving a K-car...)

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imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 20:40 GMT
sh.t, i need a wall outlet... i thought chargers didnt need a wall
outlet for some reason, so I can't even use a charger cause its parked
in the street.
Don Bruder - 04 Sep 2006 21:40 GMT
> sh.t, i need a wall outlet... i thought chargers didnt need a wall
> outlet for some reason, so I can't even use a charger cause its parked
> in the street.

Undo the other cable. Now either the battery justs lifts right out, or
there's a clip/clamp/strap holding it down. Unfasten the hold-down, and
lift out. Carry to porch near an outlet. Place on porch. Extinguish all
smoking materials, hook up as directed, plug in, turn on, etc.

(Why am I starting to feel like fodder for a sub-bridge-anean life-form?)

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do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com - 04 Sep 2006 19:27 GMT
> I left my lights on overnight now my car won't start.  Dead battery I
> know.  This battery is less then a year old and I am told that if i
> leave it alone for a few hours it might come back to life.  Is that
> possible?  I never heard of that.

It sometimes works, but don't expect anything.

> Also,  once I get a boost will i likely need to buy a new battery or
> will the battery recharge itself while i drive?

It depends on whether it's a no-maintenance or low-maintenance battery.
Both can have removable caps, but low-maintenance types are better at
withstanding accidental deep discharges, while no-maintenance batteries
may survive only 1 deep discharge.  Batteries made by Delco (no
removable caps), Exide (rounded corners on caps), and Eveready
(45-degree bevels at corners) are no-maintenance, while almost
everything from Johnson Controls (caps have 45-degree bevels at corners
or are flush with the top) are low-maintenance.  Even if a jump start
gets you going, connect a charger to the battery, preferrably an
automatic one with an ammeter on it.  A 10 amp automatic charger should
restore the battery in roughly 5 hours, and the current should
eventually taper down to less than 1A.  Leave it on for several more
hours,  and if the current stays that low the battery is probably all
right, but if it won't go below 2-3 amps you need a replacement.  If
you have a voltage meter that isn't a cheap analog one (but cheap
digital meters are fine), with any charger disconnected, measure the
voltage with the headlights on and the engine off.  A good battery will
stay above 12V, while a bad one will drop to 10V.
empress2454@wowway.com - 04 Sep 2006 20:09 GMT
it will never be as good as it was, but will probably work fine for a
while

at least in hip-hop

Empress2454 #124457

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> this is dumb but...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> thanks.
Zteve20 - 04 Sep 2006 20:50 GMT
Hmmm.... I'd think just boost it and let it run for a little
while....  Isn't that what most people do??

> this is dumb but...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> thanks.
imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 20:52 GMT
According to people on this forum that runs the risk of blowing the
alternator.

> Hmmm.... I'd think just boost it and let it run for a little
> while....  Isn't that what most people do??
Scott Dorsey - 04 Sep 2006 21:55 GMT
>According to people on this forum that runs the risk of blowing the
>alternator.

Well, sure, if you do something stupid.  But whatever risk may exist is
a lot lower than the risk of having your car impounded.
--scott
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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

stevedhoward@gmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 21:52 GMT
> Hmmm.... I'd think just boost it and let it run for a little
> while....  Isn't that what most people do??

I have thought the same thing myself throughout this entire thread.  I
have jumped probably 20 cars in my life due to leaving lights on,
whatever.  I can't say they have all been *dead*, but I know at least
twice they were.  I had a friend jump me, I let it run for a couple of
minutes, disconnected from their battery, and never blew an alternator.

Regards,

Steve
imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 23:45 GMT
it works!  got a jump and its going smooth, the battery indicatore has
it has over half way charged too.  thanks all.
imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 23:49 GMT
it works!  got a jump and its going smooth, the battery indicatore has
it has over half way charged too.  thanks all.
MT-2500 - 05 Sep 2006 00:24 GMT
imthemanbehindthedrums@hotmail.com Wrote:
> it works!  got a jump and its going smooth, the battery indicatore has
> it has over half way charged too.  thanks all.

Remember to go easy on using your cars alternator to charge a dead
battery.
You can fry the altermnator real easy.
If you must charge a while and the turn car off and let it cool down a
while.
MT

Signature

MT-2500

http://www.automotiveforums.com

do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com - 05 Sep 2006 01:23 GMT
> it works!  got a jump and its going smooth, the battery indicator has
> it has over half way charged too.

What indicator says the battery is halfway charged?   If it's the
hydrometer built into the battery and shows different colors according
to state of charge (often black, clear, or green), it's only a rough
indicator and valid only for the particular cell in which it's
floating, not for the other 5 cells.  Testing all 6 cells with an
external hydrometer (looks like a turkey baster with a device floating
in it), is a much more reliable indicator, but you have to be careful
not to drip acid (have water available to rinse it off), and the
battery caps can be hard to remove..  A voltage meter will also work,
but before measuring the battery you should either wait several hours
after turning off the engine or run the headlights for 30 seconds.
12.2V is 50% charge, 12.6V is 75-100% charge.  Because small
differences in voltage readings mean large differences in state of
charge, it's desirable to use a digital voltage meter for accuracy,
preferrably one rated for at least 2 1/2 digits (i.e., at least 2000
count so you'll see a reading like 12.63V, not 12.6V).  $3-5 Harbor
Freight models are fine.  The meter can also be used to test the
battery under load (turn on key without starting engine, run the high
beams, rear window defroster, and ventilation fan on high, verify that
the voltage stays above 10V or so for at least 30 seconds) and the
charging system (voltage at fast idle should be roughly 13V but less
than 16V).  Be careful not to let the meter leads get tangled in the
fan or belts or touch any hot surfaces.
Bill Darden - 05 Sep 2006 13:59 GMT
>this is dumb but...
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>thanks.

Check out Section 9 in the Car and Deep Battery FAQ on
www.batteryfaq.org for more information on charging and chargers.
After you recharge you battery is a good idea to have it tested for
latent damage so you do not get stranded somewhere.

Kindest regards,

BiLL......
 
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