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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2006

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Steering wheel vibration during breaking?

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nospam.auto@none.com - 05 Sep 2006 23:36 GMT
I replaced all 4 break pads on my 99 maxima about a year ago (ceramic
pads). Recently, I noticed when I am breaking on highway to slow down,
my steering wheel vibrates. It does not vibrate when I am driving,
even at high speeds. At lower speeds, it is less noticeable. My car
does not have ABS.

What could be the cause of this vibration? The rotor or break pads not
even? How severe is this problem? Can I wait till my next maintenance
(2-3 months?) to fix it?

Thanks!

Raymond
jeffcoslacker - 05 Sep 2006 23:48 GMT
Most likely is you have some residual drag at one front wheel that is
creating excessive heat and distorting one rotor...

Try driving it down a road where you don't have to use the brakes at
all...then coast to a stop using only the emergency brake, and get out
and feel the temp of the front wheels...if one is signifigantly hotter
than the other, you've found your troublemaker...more often than not
this gets misdiagnosed as a bad caliper, when in reality the condition
of the sliding surfaces and hardware are to blame..the pins and sleeves
need to move very easily and independant of each other, and the caliper
when mounted up and the piston retracted should glide easily back and
forth on them...

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dingbat@codesmiths.com - 06 Sep 2006 00:24 GMT
> I replaced all 4 break pads on my 99 maxima about a year ago (ceramic
> pads).

> Recently, I noticed when I am breaking on highway to slow down,
> my steering wheel vibrates.

You can't even spell "brake", so take it to a garage. Your disks
(rotors) are shot.
Nate Nagel - 06 Sep 2006 00:25 GMT
> I replaced all 4 break pads on my 99 maxima about a year ago (ceramic
> pads). Recently, I noticed when I am breaking on highway to slow down,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Raymond

sounds like warped rotors; how long it can wait depends on how severe it is.

nate

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187 - 06 Sep 2006 04:02 GMT
if your 99 maxima is stock, it will have abs!
and a rotor is the problem.
jeffcoslacker - 06 Sep 2006 04:36 GMT
187 Wrote:
> if your 99 maxima is stock, it will have abs!
> and a rotor is the problem.

Rotors don't just warp for no reason...all you guys telling them it's a
rotor are not providing anything useful...replace it without finding the
cause, and you just have another warped rotor shortly....

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sdlomi2 - 06 Sep 2006 13:31 GMT
> 187 Wrote:
>> if your 99 maxima is stock, it will have abs!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> cause, and you just have another warped rotor shortly....
>>snip<<

   Hey Jeff, I've come to the conclusion that warped rotors are par for the
course.  So often it shows it's just a matter of time before the metallurgy
in the rotors is altered by constantly heating up and cooling down, just
from driving and then sitting, as well as driving them hot thru cooler rain
and water in the streets.  I've watched my own driving thru strict glasses;
watched those from older generations who do very little taking off fast or
stopping quickly; watched those driving mostly longer distances and compared
them to those who drive mostly stop-and-go.  The only difference I've really
determined is that with some, it merely takes a little longer.
   I'm sure we can hurry the process by not torquing the lugs properly;
riding the brake pedal & creating undue heat; using cheaper brake pads;
using rotors 'made in China'; and not keeping even and proper pressure in
our tires.  But again, sooner or later, it's gonna happen.  Some people even
may not notice it as much as others, or they would speak more of it than
meets our eye.
   I like disc brakes.  They are much more effective than drum brakes,
hence safer too.  They seem to fade much less than drums.  I've seen them so
hot that were they drums, they would've quit stopping long, long before.
But we still have some questions that need answers.  Until then, I'm gonna
continue enjoying their superior personalities and just overlook their
lesser characteristics.
   Whoever finds the ultimate solution deserves a Nobel Prize!  And if that
turns out to be you, please remember that you once kinda knew me--I'll
surely be bragging that WE used to discuss these issues;)   s
Daniel - 07 Sep 2006 14:58 GMT
>     Hey Jeff, I've come to the conclusion that warped rotors are par for the
> course.  So often it shows it's just a matter of timeof it than
> meets our eye.
>     Whoever finds the ultimate solution deserves a Nobel Prize!
=======================
The answer has been posted here before:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml
Daniel - 07 Sep 2006 14:58 GMT
>     Hey Jeff, I've come to the conclusion that warped rotors are par for the
> course.  So often it shows it's just a matter of time
>     Whoever finds the ultimate solution deserves a Nobel Prize!
=======================
The answer has been posted here before:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml
nospam.auto@none.com - 06 Sep 2006 23:19 GMT
> > if your 99 maxima is stock, it will have abs!
> > and a rotor is the problem.

I bought it in 99 from the dealer. It is the SE, and does NOT have ABS.

> Rotors don't just warp for no reason...all you guys telling them it's a
> rotor are not providing anything useful...replace it without finding the
> cause, and you just have another warped rotor shortly....

(Long replies below)

Thanks everyone for the replies. I took it to a shop today. The owner
and I took it out for a drive on the highway to test it out. We feel
the shake in the steering wheel and the brake at 50+ mph speed (but I
guess it is not too severe after talking with the owner).

The brake pads themselves are pretty new and have lots of life left,
and he visually inspected the rotors and said the left front and rear
have some heat marks, the right side seems better. But in general the
rotors themselves looks to be in reasonable condition.

I discussed with him briefly the options and what he recommends, and
asked him if this can wait till the next maintenance. He said they
generally replace the rotor and the break pads at the same time, and
they match the pads and the rotor (so one is not significantly harder
than the other?). I get the impression that he doesn't think this is
very severe, and since the pads have a long way to go, I could drive
with this a bit more until the pads ware down a bit, and replace both
the front rotor and pads if this gets too annoying or I feel I don't
have good breaking power anymore...

The place is fairly reputable and my impression with the owner is
fairly positive. Didn't try to convince me that it's a big problem and
I need to replace it now, which I might have, so I left without paying
anything. The place is in pretty upscale neighborhood where I work, so
I got the feeling they are not that interested in resurface the
existing rotor to fix it, which he said he doesn't feel the labor
money is worth it.

My personal take on this is, when I replaced my break pads a year ago,
I bought the pads from Kragen (their expensive ceramic pads), and just
had someone replaced it, without sanding the rotors. The new pads and
old rotors may have caused this warping effect to accelerate, and
after about a year of use it becomes apparent. Perhaps the new pads
also didn't match my rotor? (I have the original rotors and the car
have 100k on it. The OEM break pads were replaced at 80k mile).

The owner said they usually put German made rotor and Japanese made
ceramic break pads, and said replacing the front would be about $400+.

So my options are

- keep driving until the problem becomes too annoying, and replace the
 whole front set.

- find another shop that will re-surface the front rotor? Is it worth
 spending the money on a rotor that already have 100k mile on it?

- find a shop that will try to find the cause of the wrapped rotor? I
 am guessing that since there's not a lot of money being made here,
 many shops won't go this route. Anyone have recommendations for San
 Jose, CA area?

Thanks!

Raymond
Mike Romain - 06 Sep 2006 23:50 GMT
I would suspect uneven torque on the front wheel lug nuts as the cause
of the rotor warp and shake.  If you carefully retorque the nuts with a
torque wrench, you might pull it back straight or at least stop it from
getting worse.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

> > > if your 99 maxima is stock, it will have abs!
> > > and a rotor is the problem.
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> Raymond
nospam.auto@none.com - 07 Sep 2006 00:03 GMT
> I would suspect uneven torque on the front wheel lug nuts as the cause
> of the rotor warp and shake.  If you carefully retorque the nuts with a
> torque wrench, you might pull it back straight or at least stop it from
> getting worse.

Won't this cause the shaking to occur during driving as well? I don't
have a torque wrench, so I might just get my tires rotated again...

Thanks.

Raymond
Mike Romain - 07 Sep 2006 00:19 GMT
> > I would suspect uneven torque on the front wheel lug nuts as the cause
> > of the rotor warp and shake.  If you carefully retorque the nuts with a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Raymond

Not normally.  The rotor material is light and relatively thin.  The
warp isn't noticed until the brake pad hits it.

If they really hammer them on, it can also warp the rim, then you feel
it all the time.

Be warned that only 'some' shops use a real torque wrench on the wheel
like they are supposed to use.  They use a 'torque stick' on an impact
gun instead which can have enough tolerance when old to warp rotors.  If
you ask nice, they might hand torque them.

Jeeps and other Chrysler rotors are bad for it.  The shops I use hand
finish wheels.

You can buy a torque wrench for under 30 bucks that will do the job.
You just back off each nut and retighten them properly.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
HLS@nospam.nix - 07 Sep 2006 19:58 GMT
> If they really hammer them on, it can also warp the rim, then you feel
> it all the time.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Mike

The more experience I get with this situation (and I have had FAR too much
experience with it
over the past few years) I become more convinced that the torqueing after
tire rotation has caused
me a ton of problems.

I fully endorse the need to have calipers functioning and sliding properly,
and to align the discs
(rotors, to most) properly, to use good pads, etc.  but, as you suggest,
Mike, usually when this
has happened I have found it to be linked to a visit to the tire shop.

At one point, I rebuilt the brakes, machined the rotors, etc and the car
went two years with nary a
wobble UNTIL Discount Tire rotated my tires.  Then, the rotors warped very
quickly. Another casualty
of torque sticks.

I bought new tires a couple of months ago, and they came at the car with a
freaking impact wrench
and torque stick, and I demanded they stop.  Turns out they didnt even have
a torque wrench in the
shop, and one of the workers had to go to his car to get a manual wrench.  I
tightened them myself
by hand and then went home and used my torque wrench to finish the job.

There are other reasons this can happen, and I am a firm believer in
diagnosis of a trouble condition,
but I'll be damned if I have to repeat this learning curve about torque
sticks.
jeffcoslacker - 07 Sep 2006 21:29 GMT
> > If they really hammer them on, it can also warp the rim, then you
> feel
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> but I'll be damned if I have to repeat this learning curve about torque
> sticks.

You are right, and the problem is usually limited to vehicles with cast
alloy wheels, steel wheels are good enough about distributing lugnut
loading that it doesn't cause problems...my own Lumina is a victim of
the rotor warp syndrome whenever someone messes with the wheels at a
shop...last time (new tires also) it felt like crap on the ride home
and I broke out the torque wrench and guaged the torque on all before
taking them off and redoing it correctly, they were anywhere from
65-120 ft/lbs...spec is 100 and yes, they used the MF'ing Torquestix on
them...those things are a joke...whether they work right or not is
completely subjective to line pressure, gun settings and condition, and
assumes a constant supply of evenly pressured air to the gun, which we
know never happens, the compressor in most shops will cycle often, and
the pressure could be 80 psi as you do one wheel, compressor kicks on,
and 120 after you get to the one diagonal from it as the compressor
hits cut-out pressure....

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nospam.auto@none.com - 08 Sep 2006 22:56 GMT
> You are right, and the problem is usually limited to vehicles with cast
> alloy wheels, steel wheels are good enough about distributing lugnut
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> and 120 after you get to the one diagonal from it as the compressor
> hits cut-out pressure....

I took Mike's advice and got a torque wrench at PepBoys for about $25.

http://www.mytoolstore.com/wilmar/prod043.html (M200DB).

I hope it's good enough for my purpose, says +- 4% and made in Taiwan.
Feels decently made. The repair manual says 72-88 ft/lbs is the proper
range.

Unfortunately me going to Pepboys is like my mom going to the computer
store, I forgot to buy the lug nut, so I'll make another trip today..
;)

Now when I re-torque it, should I take off the wheel or just loose
each nut and re-tighten them one by one? I don't mind taking off the
wheel and put it back on if it's better...

Raymond
jeffcoslacker - 08 Sep 2006 23:32 GMT
nospam.auto@none.com Wrote:

> > You are right, and the problem is usually limited to vehicles with
> cast
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Raymond

Just back them off enough to take the majority of the torque off of
them, then retorque, working in a star pattern, back and forth...go
over them at least one more time as the first ones you torque will
sometimes be slightly loose after the others have been tightened.

If you wanna be real fancy, tighten in two increments, like 45 lbs then
85 on the second pass, I don't feel this is neccessary on lugnuts,
though...

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Mike Romain - 09 Sep 2006 17:41 GMT
> > You are right, and the problem is usually limited to vehicles with cast
> > alloy wheels, steel wheels are good enough about distributing lugnut
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Raymond

I would loosen all of them a little also and do the star pattern like
the other poster mentioned.  I wouldn't remove the wheel.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
nospam.auto@none.com - 11 Sep 2006 19:32 GMT
> I would loosen all of them a little also and do the star pattern like
> the other poster mentioned.  I wouldn't remove the wheel.

I got all the equipment and torqued all the wheels to 80 pounds. Did
the star like pattern, first round torqued all to 40, and 2nd round
torqued all to 80. It was definitely tighter before, as I couldn't
loosen it with the emergency wrench that came with my car.  I had to
use my (longer) torque wrench instead. When I correctly torque it to
80, I can still (barely) back it off with the emergency wrench.

I think it helped! Initially, I noticed when I am coasting to a stop
on city street, the stopping is a bit smoother, but the differences is
subtle. However, when I am driving in terrain where I need to use my
breaks more frequently, the pulsing still occurs, especially when the
breakpad seems to run hot. (why?)

When I drove to work today is when I really noticed the difference, I
approached the exit at 80+ mph, as I slow down, the pulsing is
significantly less! I still feel it a bit, but it definitely wasn't as
bad as before!

Thank you guys! I would never would thought that would be the reason.
I guess one more thing I need to check when someone works on my wheel.
;) What's interesting is, the places that worked on my tires, they all
seem to hand torque it at the end.. so I don't know what happened...

Raymond
N8N - 07 Sep 2006 15:50 GMT
Another possiblity would be a dragging brake, possibly caused by
unlubed sliders.  Any time the caliper comes off, it should be
disassembled and the sliders lubed.  this should be SOP.  Also could be
a bad caliper.  Or they could have just warped because they're
undersized.  I'm not familiar with the OP's vehicle so I can't comment.

nate

> I would suspect uneven torque on the front wheel lug nuts as the cause
> of the rotor warp and shake.  If you carefully retorque the nuts with a
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> >
> > Raymond
 
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