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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2006Wheels Shimmy after 60 MPH
Hello, This is the 2nd post for my car, and I posted seperately cause I believe they are diiferent issues, though I may be wrong. Anyway, my car, a 2003 Camry, starts to shimmy as soon as it hits 60 MPH. I have taken it to get balanced (tried 2 places, to rule out a bad shop), yet it shimmies. Below 60, the car is smooth. Above that, it shimmies for a few seconds and then stops. Then starts, and so on and so on. It's a cycle. I had the car aligned (it was pulling to the left a bit) and balanced. it doesn't have the original rims. I just bought it last week and it came with 17 inch rims (which I really don't like, but can't replace for now $$$$$$). Any help on to what else to check would be appreciated. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Any help on to what else to check would be appreciated. It would be easy to blame the 17" wheels (as they are easier to bend than the stock ones) but the combination of your two posts makes me think that the problem actually lies elsewhere. What you are describing as a "shimmy" - is it really more like a low thrumming or vibration? A shimmy would be a lazier oscillation of the steering wheel, what I'm thinking is you're actually getting kind of a low frequency vibration that builds and dies at a very low frequency - 1 Hz or less. That would be a beat frequency set up by two separate vibrations that are almost - but not exactly - at the same frequency. i.e. if you have one item vibrating at 1000 Hz and one at 999 Hz they will set up a beat at 1 Hz. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you check your CV joints - is there a lot of play in them? That could account for *both* of the problems you describe, if you have at least two badly worn CV joints, one on each side. Let me know if I nailed it or if I'm completely off base here :) nate  Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Nate Nagel Wrote: > > Hello, > > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > replace "fly" with "com" to reply. > http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Yup. He is describing a harmonic vibration, the point where two or more less noticeable vibes coincide with each other to produce a momentary shake that ebbs and flows...very hard to pinpoint....could be anything from drive axles to tires to intenal tranny parts, body resonations, etc...slightly bent wheel hub mating areas are good for that too...it would be a good idea if you know anyone with a similar vehicle to swap out wheels and tires for test drive...that might nail it and you could stop worrying about it... Signaturejeffcoslacker http://www.automotiveforums.com > > Hello, > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > replace "fly" with "com" to reply. > http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Hello, I checked both by CV joints and I honestly don't think they are bad. The boots look very good and there were not loose or had any play where they shouldn't. Also, i took it to another place to try one more balance and the tech touched the tires and said that they felt out of shape. He said that no matter how much I balanced, the problem would not go away. >>>Hello, >>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > shape. He said that no matter how much I balanced, the problem would > not go away. That's another possibility :/ do you have access to a known good set of wheels and tires from a similar car, i.e. you have a friend with the same car that would be willing to trade you wheels and tires for an afternoon? nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >Hello, I checked both by CV joints and I honestly don't think they are >bad. The boots look very good and there were not loose or had any play >where they shouldn't. Also, i took it to another place to try one more >balance and the tech touched the tires and said that they felt out of >shape. He said that no matter how much I balanced, the problem would >not go away. Easy to check. Rotate the tires... move the front ones to the back and the back ones to the front. If the problem moves, it's the tires. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >Hello, I checked both by CV joints and I honestly don't think they are > >bad. The boots look very good and there were not loose or had any play [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Actually, he said all my tires were bad. And I would believe it because I had them all balanced on the first try, and I did switch front to back, and the issue was there, probably worse. I think I may have to change rims and tires. The reason being: 1. To see if the issue disapears. 2. I don't like those 17 inch rims. They are Crome. They came with the car 3. Tires for those Rims are really expensive I will also try to see if I can find the balancer as recommened in the previous post. Cool, you found someone who remembered he had eyes and hands. When the tires are out of shape, no amount of balancing will fix them. You should check with their maker about a road hazard warranty. Lots of tires have that so you might be able to get a deal on new ones. Wear rated likely, but every little helps.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > >Hello, I checked both by CV joints and I honestly don't think they are > > >bad. The boots look very good and there were not loose or had any play [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I will also try to see if I can find the balancer as recommened in the > previous post. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Any help on to what else to check would be appreciated. Lets see if we can tie the problem to the wheels. Try swapping the rear wheels for the front ones and note if there is any change. > > Hello, > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Lets see if we can tie the problem to the wheels. Try swapping the > rear wheels for the front ones and note if there is any change. I tried this and the shimmy was still there. And when I did the balancing the first time, all 4 tires were balanced, so as to rule out the rear tire being out of balance. > > > Hello, > > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > balancing the first time, all 4 tires were balanced, so as to rule out > the rear tire being out of balance. When they did the balance jobs did you or the tech look specifically for rims that were bent? I say this because my now deceased older Volvo 240 had some of the nicest aluminum wheels i've ever seen, and it used something like 60 or 65 series tires. And yet after 6 years of driving it shimmied and vibrated no matter how the wheels were balanced or rotated. A careful look revealed that time had taken it's toll and all 4 rims no longer ran true. Replacing them with steel wheels solved the problem. > > > > Hello, > > > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > look revealed that time had taken it's toll and all 4 rims no longer > ran true. Replacing them with steel wheels solved the problem. Hmmm, I did not. John S. Wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > look revealed that time had taken it's toll and all 4 rims no longer > ran true. Replacing them with steel wheels solved the problem. My '97 Lumina had some really robust stock alloys, not the spindly spoked designs you see a lot of now, but really solid with a lot of meat in all areas and not very likely to be distorted by minor mishaps, but even so it has one that gives up a minor shake on the highway if it is on the front...it's been there through three sets of tires, has no damage on either face and runs as true as the eye can discern without a runout guage...but there is no doubt it is the culprit...I just ignore it when rotation brings it to the front, and enjoy it when it's on the rear where I don't feel it.... My 2000 Impala had some American Racing alloys that the tire shop could never get the shake out of, or get the self-adhesive strip weights to stay on the inside of, even after cleaning the protectant off and and scuffing the surface...finally I gave up with them and did two things, I broke the tires loose and re-clocked them so the factory markings lined with the valve stems (as I was taught, but some now claim is not neccessary) and two of them required NO weight and were self balanced, the others I cleaned the inside with denatured alcohol and re-applied the adhesive weights as indicated by my bubble balancer, splitting the weight into fourths and moving them outward apart from each other until a perfect static balance is achieved, then applying them, and then gave them a little runover with a torch to hopefully get the adhesive to set up a bit better....never had any more trouble. One of them they had 1 and 1/8th ounce all in one big wad in one spot, and then 1/2 ounce almost, but not quite directly across from that...i have no idea why that would look right to a dynamic balancer...that much weight in one spot has signifant centifugal mass at speed, and I believe that alone could have produced the shake I felt...my balance job required no more than 1/2 ounce at any point, which was then divided four ways, very low inertial mass.... Signaturejeffcoslacker http://www.automotiveforums.com Apart from listening to noise (there's none), how can I check my CV joints. I already visually checked them, and the boots are fine, no grease. They have a bit of play on them, but I've tried other cars and it seems the normal. Now, i know that varies from car to car, but, how much play can be allowed on the joints? It is usually rotational play I look for to see if they are bad. This requires the wheels be blocked and the transmission be put into neutral to unload the drivetrain. You then can twist the axle to see if there is play in that direction either way. Another give away is to take a tight turn slowly. Lots of time a bad CV will make clicking noises when you do this. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Apart from listening to noise (there's none), how can I check my CV > joints. I already visually checked them, and the boots are fine, no > grease. They have a bit of play on them, but I've tried other cars and > it seems the normal. Now, i know that varies from car to car, but, how > much play can be allowed on the joints? >I broke the tires loose and re-clocked them so the factory markings >lined with the valve stems (as I was taught, but some now claim is not >neccessary) and two of them required NO weight and were self balanced, What factory marking are you referring to? I have been told to center the brand name on the valve stem, also the dot label and various other marking and have yet to see it affect the balance in any predictable manor. ***************** Thank You kgsAT@msbx.net To reply to this email please remove the AT after the kgs in the reply to address as shown above. >>I broke the tires loose and re-clocked them so the factory markings >>lined with the valve stems (as I was taught, but some now claim is not [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > To reply to this email please remove the AT > after the kgs in the reply to address as shown above. there should be a red dot somewhere on the sidewall of the tire, that should be lined up with the valve stem. obviously when mounting used tires you probably won't be able to find the red dot. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel KG Wrote: > >I broke the tires loose and re-clocked them so the factory markings > >lined with the valve stems (as I was taught, but some now claim is not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > To reply to this email please remove the AT > after the kgs in the reply to address as shown above. Many tires will have a white or other color painted dot inked on them, line it with the valve stem and they will usually require less or no weight to balance...don't ask me why, I don't think they balance them when they make them, but then I've never seen a tire factory either... Signaturejeffcoslacker http://www.automotiveforums.com > > >I broke the tires loose and re-clocked them so the factory markings > > >lined with the valve stems (as I was taught, but some now claim is not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > weight to balance...don't ask me why, I don't think they balance them > when they make them, but then I've never seen a tire factory either... Not sure where I got this, but it's in my "Tires" folder........ Observe match-mounting procedures. Proper tire and wheel assembly balancing is important from a vehicle safety standpoint. In high-speed driving, improperly balanced tire/wheel assemblies will cause a vehicle to lose stability and not operate in a safe and comfortable manner. Improperly balanced tire/wheel assemblies also cause abnormal tread wear patterns. To facilitate proper balancing, most tire manufacturers now place red and yellow marks on the sidewalls of its tires to enable the best possible match mounting of the tire/wheel assembly. There are two methods of match-mounting tires to wheel assemblies using these red or yellow marks: Uniformity (red mark) Weight (yellow mark) - Uniformity Method (Red Dot) - When performing uniformity match-mounting, the red mark on the tire, indicating the point of maximum radial force variation, should be aligned with the wheel assembly's point of minimum radial run-out, which is generally indicated by a colored dot or a notch somewhere on the wheel assembly (consult manufacturer for details). Radial force variation is the fluctuation in the force that appears in the rotating axis of a tire when a specific load is applied and the tire rotated at a specific speed. It is necessary to minimize radial force variation to ensure trouble-free installation and operation. Not all wheel assemblies indicate the point of minimum radial run-out, rendering uniformity match mounting sometimes impossible. If the point of minimum radial run-out is not indicated on a wheel assembly, the weight method of match mounting should be used instead. - Weight Method (Yellow Dot) - When performing weight match-mounting, the yellow mark on the tire, indicating the point of lightest weight, should be aligned with the valve stem on the wheel assembly, which represents the heaviest weight point of the wheel assembly. After match mounting by either of the above methods, the tire/wheel assembly can be balanced. Rotating the tire positions and seeing if a noise or vibration changes in character is one old trick that won't hurt anything and might give some insight into these devilish problems. I've this sort of problem caused by a bent alloy rim (caught by an alert tire tech) and on another occasion by an internal tread separation (caught by a diligent and persistent tire tech who thought it odd that he was using so many wheel weights, and that the computer was telling him to put them in a different place every time -- eventually he busted the tire off the rim and saw that it was smiling back at him from inside). I've also certainly noticed that some road surfaces, speeds, and car+tire combinations are one thing too many. Be sure you're testing this effect on a genuinely smooth stretch, assuming there is one where you can hit a suitable speed safely (good mechanics often have local favorites that help them in various ways pay particular attention to specific problems). Best of luck, --Joe my 99villager van has the same problem I've been through the tire and wheel,alignment gautlet,with no success(places telling me I have separated belts in my tires)So I took it into a ***** garage. they pointed out my very bad cv boots.(torn and grease coming out of them)they were replaced, had it aligned, rebalanced, same problem but maybe worse , now i notice the low frequency sound or humming( i guess)someone else has mentioned, originating, it sounds like, from the wheel bearing area or cv joint itself.could my cv joints be bad and causing this all along? or did the ******* guy not repack my wheel bearings? im looking for suggestions Signaturegreg123 http://www.automotiveforums.com > my 99villager van has the same problem I've been through the tire and > wheel,alignment gautlet,with no success(places telling me I have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > itself.could my cv joints be bad and causing this all along? or did the > ******* guy not repack my wheel bearings? im looking for suggestions your wheel bearings are probably sealed and pressed into the knuckles; they were either replaced or left alone, there is no "repack" nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel danalmsa Wrote: > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Any help on to what else to check would be appreciated. A viberation at 60-80 mph lmost always is atire or wheel blance problem. Sometime a regular tire balancer will not get the job done. Some tires need to be balanced on the car at road speed and the cars weight on the wheel. A hunter GSP9700 tire balancer will balance the tires on the car at road speeds. And will almost even balance a square wheel. For a location near you that has one click on the link below. http://www.gsp9700.com/pub/search/FindGSP9700.cfm Good Luck and let us know how it goes. MT SignatureMT-2500 http://www.automotiveforums.com > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Any help on to what else to check would be appreciated. Check the steering Idler Arm. > 2003 Camry, starts to shimmy as soon as it hits 60 MPH. I have > taken it to get balanced (tried 2 places, to rule out a bad shop), yet > it shimmies. > > Below 60, the car is smooth. Above that, it shimmies for a few seconds > and then stops. Then starts, and so on and so on. It's a cycle. Could it be the ball joints, tie rod ends, or even the power steering rack? A friend of mine experienced oscillations that worsened with speed because his power steering system was leaking internally. > > 2003 Camry, starts to shimmy as soon as it hits 60 MPH. I have > > taken it to get balanced (tried 2 places, to rule out a bad shop), yet [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > rack? A friend of mine experienced oscillations that worsened with > speed because his power steering system was leaking internally. Hello. It has no leaks and all parts looked as they should. I went to another place that had Force Balancing and the gentleman was kind enough to tell me my tires look a bit egg shaped before he put them on the machine, so I didn't have to spend a dime. So I think that confims it for me, my tires, though they look like 30% used, are bad. So I'm going to wait because each tire on that 17 Inch rim cost around 100. I'd rather get a new set of 15 inch rims and less expensive tires, then replace the tires for some rims I don't like at all. Thank you all for your comments. Saved me from more work. > > > 2003 Camry, starts to shimmy as soon as it hits 60 MPH. I have > > > taken it to get balanced (tried 2 places, to rule out a bad shop), yet [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > replace the tires for some rims I don't like at all. Thank you all for > your comments. Saved me from more work. Do you have a good local junkyard that might sell you a set of takeoff wheels and maybe even tires for cheap? nate > > > > 2003 Camry, starts to shimmy as soon as it hits 60 MPH. I have > > > > taken it to get balanced (tried 2 places, to rule out a bad shop), yet [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > nate I'm new to the city, so I'm not sure what I have around me. I will look. But I would like to update that, me being as stubborn as I am, I took the car back for another try at balancing, and the Tech at this shop balanced the wheels again and gave me some advice. He indicated that my rims were Lug Centric, and they were probably not centering correctly. So I went to a Wheel And Rim shop and bough the apropiate Hub Centric Rings and then installed them. The shimmy was reduced by a ton. I mean, it's a difference of night and day. Now, it's not entirely gone, but, now it's bearable. In fact, the oscilations happen a lot less and disappear very quickly. I took the car out for a few test drives and I would hit 80 without feeling it. Then it would start, but be a lot less and disappear quickly. It can still happen above 60, but I think I can stand that for a while. |
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