Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2006
Hydrogen generators
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themeads4@frontiernet.net - 20 Sep 2006 03:34 GMT I have been reading about hydrogen generators that inject hydrogen into the combustion chamber to improve mileage. Anyone know if they work? They sound too good to be true but everything I read about them says they work. They start at about $700 and I would rather not get ripped-off if they are a scam. HELP.
223rem - 20 Sep 2006 06:46 GMT > I have been reading about hydrogen generators that inject hydrogen into > the combustion chamber to improve mileage. Anyone know if they work? > They sound too good to be true but everything I read about them says > they work. They start at about $700 and I would rather not get > ripped-off if they are a scam. HELP. My first gut reaction was 'snake oil', but a google search indicates that there is some published research backing it up. But 700$?! Definitely not worth it IMO.
Mike Romain - 20 Sep 2006 14:22 GMT Do you watch the mythbusters show?
They got a hydrogen generator in their test of 'snake oil' fuel devices and they think that 'maybe' the car started once with it, but they weren't sure if it might be left over gas because it only started the once.
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> I have been reading about hydrogen generators that inject hydrogen into > the combustion chamber to improve mileage. Anyone know if they work? > They sound too good to be true but everything I read about them says > they work. They start at about $700 and I would rather not get > ripped-off if they are a scam. HELP. Scott Dorsey - 20 Sep 2006 15:51 GMT >I have been reading about hydrogen generators that inject hydrogen into >the combustion chamber to improve mileage. Anyone know if they work? >They sound too good to be true but everything I read about them says >they work. They start at about $700 and I would rather not get >ripped-off if they are a scam. HELP. Sure, injecting hydrogen into the combustion chamber along with the gasoline means you'll burn less gasoline... injecting ANY fuel along with the gasoline means you'll burn less gasoline.
If you cut your gasoline 50/50 with aviation fuel, you'll use half as much gasoline as you did before. The problem is that you'll ALSO use as much aviation fuel as gasoline, and the aviation fuel costs a lot more than the auto gas.
Replacing a portion of your fuel with another fuel that costs more is not a way to save money. --scott
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RightWingZionist - 30 Oct 2006 04:14 GMT Scott Dorsey Wrote:
> >I have been reading about hydrogen generators that inject hydrogen > into [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > -- > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." I know this thread was dead but I couldn't help it. Scott, I did not know water was more expensive than gasoline. http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/index.html
P.S Are you sure we are talking about hydrogen gas or Brown's gas aka HHO?
--RWZ
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MishaA - 30 Oct 2006 04:59 GMT ya, and those silly automakers all over the world are just too lazy to use this magic water to increase mileage 50% :lol: they prefer to spend millions on R&D and in their stupidity are happy with just a few percent mileage improvement:rofl: what a stupid people work in auto industry:lol:
If seriously, industry is working hard on using hydrogen as a fuel for quite some time already, and solution is not here yet obviously. It takes time to do something right, you know.
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Scott Dorsey - 30 Oct 2006 16:03 GMT >I know this thread was dead but I couldn't help it. >Scott, I did not know water was more expensive than gasoline. >http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/index.html > >P.S Are you sure we are talking about hydrogen gas or Brown's gas aka >HHO? Water is cheap. Making hydrogen from water takes electricity. Electricity is expensive.
Fuel oil is an energy _source_. It has considerable potential energy when you pump it out of the ground.
Hydrogen fuel is an energy _storage system_. You use energy to make it, then when you burn it, you get exactly that same energy back. --scott
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ed - 30 Oct 2006 16:47 GMT My understanding is there is enough hydrogen (and gaseous oxygen) in the conversion (and they use Lye as a catalyst) to burn off buildup in the engine where eventually your fuel consumption goes down by a certain percentage. The claim also is that the engines computer adjusts your fuel mixture and all of this takes about two or three weeks to occur depending on the engine. The unit requires about 10 amps to run but that is adjusted by the amount of Lye in the chamber. It is possible to run it high enough to load your alternator down and cancel whatever saving your doing. The units truely do produce the gases they say. Whether they are enough to do anything productive is in question.
One can build one of these units versus buying one by using carbon rods out of an old dry cell, some pvc piping and some fittings. The cheapest one for sale is similar and the costlier ones are stainless steel.
My preference is chemically stored hydrogen which the engione runs on exclusively. We're talking 10k for a system like that once the government says we can have have it (for purchase). Then there is the cost of getting the hydrogen into the stored form which is more cost. All of this could be made cheap is they wanted it to be. They just don't want it to be. We've come a long way since the Wright brothers in planes and spaceships, but we still have clunky engines in our cars running on fossil fuels.
eh, my .02
MishaA - 30 Oct 2006 17:03 GMT Scott Dorsey Wrote:
> You use energy to make it, then > when you burn it, you get exactly that same energy back. *-perpetuum mobile-* ? Soory, you forgot about efficiency:wink:
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Scott Dorsey - 30 Oct 2006 17:41 GMT >Scott Dorsey Wrote: >> You use energy to make it, then >> when you burn it, you get exactly that same energy back. >> >*-perpetuum mobile-* ? Soory, you forgot about efficiency:wink: The efficiency of the production is close to 90% with only slight losses due to heat. Most of that 10% is spent getting it into tanks, too, since the actual electrolysis is very efficient.
And when you burn it, you DO get all the energy you put into it back. If you can't USE that energy and most of it (as in an internal combustion engine) is wasted as heat, don't shoot the messenger. --scott
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MishaA - 30 Oct 2006 18:12 GMT Scott Dorsey Wrote:
> >Scott Dorsey Wrote: > >> You use energy to make it, then [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > -- > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Ooops, sorry. I did not understand your post, I thought you were talking about some sort of on-board hydrogen production using energy produced from hydrogen usage. :frown:
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RightWingZionist - 30 Oct 2006 05:45 GMT I did more research online. It seems that Brown gas may be bullshit. Anyone good at chemistry? Can you even have HHO? Second, if you have a tank of water you would need some amperage for electrosys. Say you have a charged battery and it starts the electrosis, you then take the oxygen and hydrogen and mix it at the injector nozzle and fire it, you would need the spark plugs to do it which use electricity. You would also need the engine to turn the alternator to make electricity to fire the plugs and split the atoms in the water...so this would be impossible because of the laws of conservation of energy. Eventually the engine would stop since the current required fire the plugs and electrosys is slowed down. Right?
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Don Stauffer - 01 Nov 2006 15:24 GMT > I did more research online. It seems that Brown gas may be bullshit. > Anyone good at chemistry? Can you even have HHO? Second, if you have a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > slowed down. > Right? Kind of. If the electrolysis cell were 100% efficient it would take exactly as much energy to liberate hydrogen as the energy you get from combusting it with oxygen. Unfortunately, no such electrolysis cell is 100% efficient (joule heating if nothing else). So, electrolysing water will never get you a perpetual motion machine.
On the other hand, there may be some industrial processes that can eventually generate economical hydrogen. One promising avenue in my mind is genetic manipulation of methane generating bugs to make them generate hydrogen instead of methane. Also, there may be catalytic reactions that might be interesting.
Don Stauffer - 01 Nov 2006 15:25 GMT > I did more research online. It seems that Brown gas may be bullshit. > Anyone good at chemistry? Can you even have HHO? Second, if you have a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > slowed down. > Right? Kind of. If the electrolysis cell were 100% efficient it would take exactly as much energy to liberate hydrogen as the energy you get from combusting it with oxygen. Unfortunately, no such electrolysis cell is 100% efficient (joule heating if nothing else). So, electrolysing water will never get you a perpetual motion machine.
On the other hand, there may be some industrial processes that can eventually generate economical hydrogen. One promising avenue in my mind is genetic manipulation of methane generating bugs to make them generate hydrogen instead of methane. Also, there may be catalytic reactions that might be interesting.
AZ Nomad - 01 Nov 2006 19:29 GMT >I did more research online. It seems that Brown gas may be bullshit. >Anyone good at chemistry? Can you even have HHO? Second, if you have a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >slowed down. >Right? Not even wrong.
You'd have a more economical car if you poked holes in your gas tank and let the opposite reaction of the fuel rushing out push the car.
MishaA - 30 Oct 2006 06:03 GMT Well, I don't know exact numbers, by your logic definitely seems to be right
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RightWingZionist - 31 Oct 2006 04:42 GMT How about using the sun? We can generate electricity from heating steam with mirrors and then using the steam in a disk/bladeless/tesla turbine which we can get up to 95% efficiency, and use that to turn the generator. That would be much cheaper than using solar panels. The problem is safely transporting the oxygen and hydrogen. Maybe we can store it in a small chamber and use a gas/HHO hybrid engine for better efficiency?
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RightWingZionist - 01 Nov 2006 22:46 GMT Well AZ that wasn't funny or usefull. Anywho..we know that ICE are not effiecient and you need to keep adding fuel to it to run (petrol/gasoline etc). However, your alternator is always running with the engine at idle and highway speeds correct? So if we convert the unused amps for electrolysis to make the oxygen and hydrogen gases to go into the air intake, this would theoretically make your car more effiecient and powerfull. P.S Anyone see the demo video on the hydrogen-boost site? It doesn't make sense how a stock saturn can get 40+mpg, it also made no sense how they put 50 psi in the tires, I have Falken 512's that go up to 51 psi max, no way ide put 50 psi cold or warm. high 37mb http://www.youtube.com/v/6epu4mq6-Us low 4mb http://www.youtube.com/v/Ah0eM66Lx-o
900 bux for a system is not worth it though. I found a similar system but it needs lye for $347 up to 3.0 L engine http://www.savefuel.ca/oxy-hydrogen/ Anyone know why one might need lye and other not?
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Don Stauffer - 02 Nov 2006 15:53 GMT > Well AZ that wasn't funny or usefull. > Anywho..we know that ICE are not effiecient and you need to keep adding [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > http://www.savefuel.ca/oxy-hydrogen/ > Anyone know why one might need lye and other not? But the power needed to turn an alternator/generator depends on the electrical power it is delivering. That is, as the electrical load goes up, the generator is harder to turn and the more engine power it takes to turn it. Even though it is turning at times when the electrical power requirement is low, if it is not delivering electrical power it is spinning pretty freely and not taking much engine power.
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