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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2006Which oil filters are best?
I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and the $5 Purolator are the best. Any thoughts or independent tests on internet you can refer me to? > I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. > Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and > the $5 Purolator are the best. > > Any thoughts or independent tests on internet you can refer me to? After I got two bad napa filters in a row I started shopping elsewhere. Both leaked at the spot welts on the end of the can. Another brand I avoid is fram. I had a fram PH8A blow up at 80psi on morning a few seconds after engine start. The rubber block gasket blew out. I've been running super tech filters(the wal-mart store brand) for several years and I've never had a problem. I did at one time take the super tech, STP filters and the bosch filters and compare them for manufacturer markings on the canisters, and found all three to be completely identical with the super tech filter being the cheapest(obviously). Good luck with it. Chris >> I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. >> Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Chris i hear this type of thing all the time for several different brands. thru the years I have used fram and napa filters for several diffferent types of vehicles. never had a problem with either. i'm not an apologist for either--besides those i have also used other brands.i have also used delco, stp, cheapo's, expensiver, whatever...never had a problem with any of them...guess i'm lucky. you're probably gonna wind up hearing all sorts of responses about this brand, not that one...frankly, they way things are these days, it seems quality is generally *just ok* across the board, and mass-manufactured products are prone to defects... halatos@gmail.com wrote in article <1159206013.973995.29260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>... > After I got two bad napa filters in a row I started shopping elsewhere. > Both leaked at the spot welts on the end of the can. Another brand I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Good luck with it. Now THAT's funny! I don't care WHO you are... Suggesting that a Wally World filter - provided by the absolute lowest bidder at the absolute cheapest price - can, somehow do a better job protecting an engine than a NAPA Gold filter - built by WIX, a company that engineers and builds filters for everything from a lawn mower up to the biggest CAT construction machine going. The WW low-bidder simply shops around for a deal on filtering media - maybe even stuff that WIX rejected? - that has the capacity to filter out large grains of sand, anti-drainback and max-pressure valves that maintain OEM recommended pressures within a hundred pounds or so - if they even DO install valves - then pays a fee to someone who has the machinery to assemble all these crappy components. And, don't give me that idiotic arguement about the sheer AMOUNT of filtering media. 100 feet of window screen doesn't filter nearly as well as one square foot of coffee filter......and, unless you have the tools to measure microns, you cannot even begin to determine whether the filter with the larger amount of filtering media actually filters better than the one with less. *** Please, PLEASE! expand on the so-called "manufacturer's markings" you refer to above. I'd be REALLY interested in hearing that one. > halatos@gmail.com wrote in article > <1159206013.973995.29260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>... [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > *** Please, PLEASE! expand on the so-called "manufacturer's markings" you > refer to above. I'd be REALLY interested in hearing that one. I have compared Bosch gas filters that way. The 'cheap parts' stores sell them for $12.00 and Volvo sells them for $45.00. Same part number in the same box. Same for GE lights. The 'GE' brand ones were double the 'store' brand and when you opened the box, the bulb in both had the same markings exact up to including the 'GE' stamp. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >> halatos@gmail.com wrote in article >> <1159206013.973995.29260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>... [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Super Tech are made by Champion Labs, they are actually a VERY good filter. The also make the Lee, Deutsch, Champion, STP, Bosch, some AC Delco some Motorcraft some Mopar numbers. Yes Wix are good as well BUT, NAPA filters are not all WIX the Gold line are WIX the Silver line may or may not be depending on the part number I run Wix or Baldwin.  SignatureSteve W. Steve W. <no@spammers.org> wrote in article <1159228275_31983@sp6iad.superfeed.net>... > Super Tech are made by Champion Labs, they are actually a VERY good > filter. The also make the Lee, Deutsch, Champion, STP, Bosch, some AC [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > line are WIX the Silver line may or may not be depending on the part > number I run Wix or Baldwin. Check back on my post.... I DID, specifically, refer to "NAPA Gold" >>halatos@gmail.com wrote in article >><1159206013.973995.29260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>... [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > and when you opened the box, the bulb in both had the same markings > exact up to including the 'GE' stamp. The absolute BEST story like that I heard came from a friend who was working on a BMW 5-series, early 90s vintage. It needed a MAF sensor- something like $400 for the part indicated for a BMW. A bit of research revealed that the same Bosch MAF sensor is used in numerous Ford products. And lists for $40. Same part. Same Bosch P/N. Just a Ford oval engraved on it instead of a BMW roundel. And you know what? The BMW engine doesn't REALLY care about that. >The absolute BEST story like that I heard came from a friend who was >working on a BMW 5-series, early 90s vintage. It needed a MAF sensor- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >engraved on it instead of a BMW roundel. And you know what? The BMW >engine doesn't REALLY care about that. Many of the older BMW electrical parts are available from VW as well, for a considerable savings. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." I have not found any independent tests regarding screw-on oil filters. Any thoughts or independent tests on internet you can refer me to? _________________________________________________________ Here is a link to one person's personal tests a few years ago: http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html HTH. Rodan. >I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. >Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and >the $5 Purolator are the best. > >Any thoughts or independent tests on internet you can refer me to? Fram filters are crap. Cut one open next to a Wix and I would be very surprised if you did not agree. Under severe service they sometimes collapse and block oil flow. The glued-on cardboard end caps are less than impressive as is the piece of string that bundles the media. BTW -- Pennzoil is Fram. I use Wix in my circle-track car. My buddy used to use Fram until he lost oil pressure and found the inside of the filter ruptured and blocking 99% of the oil flow. Fortunately the 1% saved the engine from immediate death and he was back on the track with oil pressure after putting a different filter on. I had tried to tell him about Fram -- not the first time I have heard about this. Cut some open and see for yourself. Don www.donsautomotive.com Don <don@NO-SPAMdonsautomotive.com> wrote in article <oh7hh29pms83jsl5vulfpoekuntqcer22g@4ax.com>... > I use Wix in my circle-track car. FYI - I used to run a NAPA store. I had one customer who built oval-track engines. He would buy the NAPA SILVER filters by the case. His rationale was that the Silver line had a more porous filtering medium, thus lowering restrictions in the oiling system. >>I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. >>Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >surprised if you did not agree. Under severe service they sometimes >collapse and block oil flow. Can you describe this collapse? What moves and in which direction? >The glued-on cardboard end caps are less >than impressive as is the piece of string that bundles the media. Why do you feel the non-metal end caps are a problem and what do you believe the purpose of the string is? >BTW -- Pennzoil is Fram. I use Wix in my circle-track car. My buddy >used to use Fram until he lost oil pressure and found the inside of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Don >www.donsautomotive.com Cut one open next to a Wix and I would be very >>surprised if you did not agree. Under severe service they sometimes >>collapse and block oil flow. > > Can you describe this collapse? What moves and in which direction? I won't speak for Don (even though he's a fellw South Austinite) :-) but I can describe the Fram failure I've had. As you know, the oil in an oil filter flows into the filter via the outer ring of holes in the baseplate, then flows inward to the center of the filter through the cylinder of corrugated filter media, then out the center pipe to the engine. When I have had Fram filters that caused a sudden drop in oil pressure, what had happened is that the end-cap farthest from the filter based had broken loose from the cylindrical corrugated media, the media had then caved inward toward the center of the filter, ultimately folding downward toward the base of the filter and collapsing across the outlet hole in the center of the baseplate, drastically reducing the oil flow (and of course dumping lots of previously captured grit and dirt right into the engine's oiling system- fortunately it was a Chrysler 318 and nothing can kill it, not even a Fram. Yep the proof is in the pudding.. Fram sucks. It's all marketing. Chas > >I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. > >Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Don > www.donsautomotive.com > I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. > Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and > the $5 Purolator are the best. First of all, don't rely on reviews that include no real testing but instead only take filters apart to show the insides. They're not tests but merely beauty contests. I know of only 2 independent tests, this one done 11 years ago by a Finnish auto magazine: www.mr2.com/TEXT/oil_filter_test.html and a Consumer Reports review published in their 2/1987 issue, with a follow up a few months later. Purolator and Champion Labs make many brands of filters. Purolator seems to make them all to the same standard, but with Champion Labs the quality varies according to the customer's requirements and willingness to pay. If you want a better filter, try Fram Toughguard, Mobil 1, or Purolator Pure One. These are made primarily of synthetic fiber rather than cellulose and are claimed to remove at least 96-98% of the 20-micron particles in a single pass test, compared to 70-94% for most conventional filters. I know of only 2 independent tests, this one done 11 years ago by a Finnish auto magazine: www.mr2.com/TEXT/oil_filter_test.html and a Consumer Reports review published in their 2/1987 issue, with a follow up a few months later. While obsolete by almost 20 years, below are the CR results. The first score is for single-pass fitration efficiency for 20u particles (A = 88%+ removed, B = 72-88%, C = 60-72%, D = less than 60% removed), the second score for dirt capacity when the oil pressure drop across the filter reached 80% of the allowed maximum. Fram: PH25 A/B PH30 A/B PH43 A/B PH46 A/C PH8A A/B PH3387A A/B PH2870A A/B Lee: LF24 C/A LF25 B/B LF16 C/B LF42 A/B LF1 B/B LF1HP A/B LF40 B/B LF17HP B/B LF213HP B/C AC: PF24 C/B PF25 C/A PF34 C/B PF20 C/C PF47 B/B (British made: B/A) X21 D/A Kmart: K5 C/B K3 C/C K9 C/C K29 C/C K1 C/B K11 C/B K26 C/B Motorcraft: FL9 C/A FL10 C/B FL300 C/A FL13B B/B FL1A C/A FL321 C/B FL268 C/B FL401 C/B Purolator: PER33 B/B PER49 C/B PER51 C/C FC064 C/B PER1A C/B PER111 C/B FC01 B/B FC0252 C/C Sears 45172 C/B 45173 D/B 45176 C/B 45202 B/A 45170 C/B 45191 B/A 45177 B/B 45194 B/A 45197 B/A Hastings: D/? (less than 50% removed, worst efficiency of all tested). Mopar 3549-957 B/B Toyota 15601-44011 B/B Nissan 15208-H8916 D/B 2 months later, CR finished testing Lee Maxifilters and rated them equal to the Frams. The Frams tested were orange "Wear Guard," while currently available orange Frams are "Extra Guard" and claimed by Fram to be better. Although maybe dated, at least this is data. Anything could have happened in the intervening years,BUT real numerical data is far preferable to the 'cut them open and hypothesize' group. > I know of only 2 independent tests, this one done 11 years ago by a > Finnish auto magazine: [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > currently available orange Frams are "Extra Guard" and claimed by Fram > to be better. hls <hls@nospam .nix> wrote in article <CERTg.10224$6S3.8336@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>... > Although maybe dated, at least this is data. > Anything could have happened in the intervening years,BUT real numerical > data is far preferable to the > 'cut them open and hypothesize' group. Not if the data is obsolete, and the materials, methods, and engineering have changed....... Would you base your purchase of tires on the "newly developed" nylon cord of the mid-'40s? "*" <nospam@this.addy.com> wrote in message > Would you base your purchase of tires on the "newly developed" nylon cord > of the mid-'40s? Of course not. But neither would I base oil filter purchases on vague observations and prejudice. NOBODY has published any oil filter data in the recent years which is worth a tinker's damn. Fram looks bad...so what? Only a relatively few companies make filters in the USA. Hard cold specifications have not been set by the manufacturers. If they had, then this debate would not be ongoing. You dont really know whether Wix is better than Fram, or whether Mobil1 is better than toilet paper. You have your ideas, your preferences, your prejudices, but you have very little hard fact. SHOW ME THE FACTS! (and with all due respect, I dont think that you have them. I know I dont have them.) hls <larrys25@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article <ShcUg.7764$GR.7565@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>... > Of course not. But neither would I base oil filter purchases on vague > observations and prejudice. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Fram looks bad...so what? Only a relatively few companies make filters in > the USA. > > Hard cold specifications have not been set by the manufacturers. If they > had, then this debate would not be ongoing. Each manufacturer designs, engineers and builds its product to its own specifications. They provide such data in their paper catalogs. Chevy and Ford do the same. As do IBM and Apple. > You dont really know whether Wix is better than Fram, > or whether Mobil1 is better than toilet paper. The choices between Wix, Fram and Mobil1 are more personal, based on what the manufacturer has presented as the perceivable benefits of its product. But, I DO know what oil filtering medium has been engineered to do, filter oil in a way that the manufacturer believe will make the filter an outstanding, popular product.... Some manufacturers target quality while others target price points. I ALSO know what toilet paper has been engineered to do, and filtering oil is NOT one of those things that I have ever seen mentioned on a toilet paper wrapper. I have yet to see a Charmin' report on the advantages it can offer when used as an oil filter....or why Charmin' might be better at filtering oil than Cottonelle. Making an intelligent decision based on THAT data isn't hard to do! > You have your ideas, your preferences, your prejudices, > but you have very little hard fact. > > SHOW ME THE FACTS! (and with all due respect, > I dont think that you have them. I know I dont have them.) Why is Ford better than Chevrolet?....or vice-versa? Why did you buy the particular car you now own? Did you have ALL the data on how the car was designed, engineered, and built? I doubt it! (and with all due respect, I dont think that you have them.) Exactly what are you seeking for facts?....for data? Virtually ALL filter manufacturers have information on their products such as filtering media, valve construction, valve material, valve operating parameters, etc. in their catalogs....their PAPER catalogs. I know from my tenure as a NAPA store manager that NAPA has it all in theirs......and, any info that was NOT covered in the catalog, was readily available with a 1-800 telephone call to the person handling the NAPA account at WIX. If you buy your parts in one of those stores that doesn't have a catalog rack sitting on the counter, you'll never have access to ANY data - current or dated. And, ten-year-old data on ANYTHING automotive is positively outdated and should NOT be used to make sensible decisions. NOW.... Here's an interesting anecdote on one of the local "retail" parts stores versus one of the "professional" stores. I was looking for an exhaust system for a 1995 GMC Sonoma 4.3 V-6, extended cab, 122.9" wheelbase - a fairly common vehicle. Against my better judgement, I called the local "retail" store. (Think PepBoys, Auto Zone, Checkers and stores of that ilk.) My local "retail" store flunkie stated that the ONLY piece available for the truck was the muffler - no pipes!....Not a thing he can do for me!!!......Sorry about that!!!! I called the local Carquest store - which carries the exact same brand of exhaust, Goerlich - and the counterman there commented, "Hmmm. There's no listing for pipes in the computer catalog....Let me get my book out." He immediately found the entire system, and had it all in stock. I'll bet the "retail" store also had it all in stock, since the parts are all "A" numbers - but they couldn't sell it to me. There is a glitch/typo/ommission - whatever - in the Goerlich exhaust systems computer catalog that is used by the stores that sell their line. You NEED to look this particular vehicle up in the PAPER catalog. The "retail" monkeys simply do not know how to use a paper catalog. > "*" <nospam@this.addy.com> wrote in message > > Would you base your purchase of tires on the "newly developed" nylon cord [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > SHOW ME THE FACTS! (and with all due respect, > I dont think that you have them. I know I dont have them.) THE FACTS ARE THAT CAR MANUFACTURERS SPEND A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY DESIGINING AND DEVELOPING COMPONENTS FOR THE CARS THEY SELL. ON THAT BASIS ALONE I WOULD PUT MUCH MORE TRUST IN THE PRODUCT DESIGNED UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES THAN SOMETHING FROM THE LOCAL DISCOUNT AUTO PARTS STORE OR FLY-BY-NIGHT WEB-BASED SELLER. >>"*" <nospam@this.addy.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > THE FACTS ARE THAT CAR MANUFACTURERS SPEND A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY > DESIGINING AND DEVELOPING COMPONENTS FOR THE CARS THEY SELL. Pistons, yes. Blocks, yes. Intake manifolds, yes. Transmissions, yes (if they don't decide to buy a Borg-Warner or a Getrag gearset). But not alternators, starters, power steering pumps, and DEFINITELY NOT OIL FILTERS. They pick a design that fits and meets minimum performance criteria. In SOME cases they'll put out a spec for a new design to industry and await responses, then pick a vendor. But WHEN was the last time a new oil filter form-factor, let alone a filter with new FUNCTIONAL characteristics appeared on the market? Hell, half the vehicles on the road can still use the good old Wix 15515/ Motorcraft FL1-A,/ AC PF-2 that's been around from the 50s, and still more can make use of the "shorty" version of the same filter. The companies that have a vested interest in making filters that actually WORK better are the ones that make the filters, and some of them (not all) do try to develop better filter function. ON THAT > BASIS ALONE I WOULD PUT MUCH MORE TRUST IN THE PRODUCT DESIGNED UNDER > THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES THAN SOMETHING FROM THE LOCAL DISCOUNT AUTO PARTS > STORE OR FLY-BY-NIGHT WEB-BASED SELLER. I agree on a fly-by night company, but that's not the issue. The issue is 'by a filter of unknown origin in a dealer box, versus a Wix or Purolator from a parts store?' Where do you get this nonsense about filters anyway. > >>"*" <nospam@this.addy.com> wrote in message > >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > criteria. In SOME cases they'll put out a spec for a new design to > industry and await responses, then pick a vendor. Again, where do you get this nonsense. Seems to me I asked before, but I will ask again. Please share with us your background that would allow you to have access to the design, contracting and purchasing decisions made by the major automotive manufacturers. > But WHEN was the last time a new oil filter form-factor, let alone a > filter with new FUNCTIONAL characteristics appeared on the market? Hell, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > actually WORK better are the ones that make the filters, and some of > them (not all) do try to develop better filter function. That's a.s-backwards. There is no heavy weight entity overlooking the individual makers of filters sold at retail. The car manufacturer is looking over the shoulder of the company making filters for use in their cars out of self-interest. > ON THAT > > BASIS ALONE I WOULD PUT MUCH MORE TRUST IN THE PRODUCT DESIGNED UNDER [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is 'by a filter of unknown origin in a dealer box, versus a Wix or > Purolator from a parts store?' Chances are I will go with the dealer. > Again, where do you get this nonsense. Fact, not nonsense. > Seems to me I asked before, but > I will ask again. Please share with us your background that would > allow you to have access to the design, contracting and purchasing > decisions made by the major automotive manufacturers. I answered before. Its not a secret. Now its your turn: I ask you directly to show me any evidence at all that Ford, GM, or DiamlerChrysler (or any other major you choose to name) owns an assembly line that is even capable of producing an oil filter. You seem so confident that Toyota makes filters.. YOU prove it. It absolutely amazes me to think that a person can be born, grow up, and reach a level of maturity so as to be able to type without having the most simplistic understanding of how major corporations do business. Or (obviously) without ever opening the hood of a and seeing the Nippondenso alternator, Sanden AC compressor, Gates hoses, Dayco belts, Stant radiator caps, Robertshaw thermostats, Bosch fuel injectors, etc. etc. etc. To actually believe that a carmaker in the 21st century (really from about the mid 20th onward) wastes its resources doing R&D and production on expendable parts is so incredibly naive that I start to wonder if you're just trolling. > > Again, where do you get this nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I answered before. Its not a secret. Hmmm...this makes the fourth time I've asked for how you obtained such confidential information on such a wide range of manufacturers. And in each case you either do not respond or you deliberately fog the issue. So that one and all can fully appreciate your credentials and possibly begin to agree with some of what you say, please tell us about what must be an extensive background in the automotive industry with access to the innermost operations of some of the largest multinational corporations. We're waiting.... > Now its your turn: I ask you directly to show me any evidence at all > that Ford, GM, or DiamlerChrysler (or any other major you choose to > name) owns an assembly line that is even capable of producing an oil > filter. You seem so confident that Toyota makes filters.. YOU prove it. Nope, that statement is incorrect. I'm confident that most manufacturers outsource a lot of production...it only makes sense. > It absolutely amazes me to think that a person can be born, grow up, and > reach a level of maturity so as to be able to type without having the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and production on expendable parts is so incredibly naive that I start > to wonder if you're just trolling. Again, you are fogging the question. Over the past several days you have been asked to support idiotic statements like: "Yeah, do that. If you want a filter built by a random company that changes from year to year and box to box on the shelf. " "Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, etc. do NOT build their own filters. They are built and supplied by a contractor (lowest bidder that barely meets a minimum spec), and that contractor may change over the course of years." So, again Stevie my boy, please give some idea what your sources are and what your background is that would give you access to this information. >>>Again, where do you get this nonsense. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Hmmm...this makes the fourth time I've asked for how you obtained such > confidential information on such a wide range of manufacturers. Stupid troll. Its not confidential when you can cut open a filter out of a Mopar box and find Fram construction one year and Wix another year for the SAME filter application. And when you've been using filters for 30 years, talking with other guys who've each been using filters for 30+years on all sorts of makes and models and have noticed the same variation in product inside the box, you begin to see what is going on. And apart from that, when you are an engineer and talk with other engineers, you find out how they go about businesses. If you read SAE publications you will find that the engineers who write the papers are very forthright about how they develop specifications, how they develop new fluids, filters, etc. and how they do so in collaboration with companies that supply the aftermarket. And on the business model side of the house, have you really NEVER heard of re-bidding production contracts? This is a very standard practice. YOU are the one "fogging" the issue with trying to make believe that it is some secret insider information. > So, again Stevie my boy, please give some idea what your sources are > and what your background is that would give you access to this > information. I have a brain to think with, eyes to read with, and hands to examine parts with, little Johnnie. But you believe what you want to in your little "I turn the key and it goes world." Its REALLY no skin off my nose. > >>>Again, where do you get this nonsense. > >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > parts with, little Johnnie. But you believe what you want to in your > little "I turn the key and it goes world." Its REALLY no skin off my nose. As I thought Stevie my boy, you have nothing to back up your claims about knowlege of how the major car manufacturers design and bid out products. Nothing of any substance whatsoever. Just a couple of worthless anecdotes about sawing open filters from a would-be mechanic. > Pistons, yes. Blocks, yes. Intake manifolds, yes. Transmissions, yes (if > they don't decide to buy a Borg-Warner or a Getrag gearset). But not > alternators, starters, power steering pumps, and DEFINITELY NOT OIL > FILTERS. They pick a design that fits and meets minimum performance > criteria. In SOME cases they'll put out a spec for a new design to > industry and await responses, then pick a vendor. And why is it that each car company designs their own automatic transmissions but mostly buy manual transmissions? > And why is it that each car company designs their own automatic > transmissions but mostly buy manual transmissions? Good question. Nowadays, relatively few manual transmissions are ordered in the USA, except in special applications vehicles, large trucks,etc. I assume it makes more sense for an auto manufacturer to outsource the manuals because of the low volumes. For years, Rolls Royce used GM automatic transmissions, perhaps modified (I dont know if there were real differences). American Motors used to use Chrysler automatics. It is a matter of volume and return on investment, possibly tinged by union contracts. I think Steve is probably right that no major US manufacturer makes oil filters. The information is out there if you want to dig it out. The automakers likely have quality control specifications and then bid out the relabled filters to be sold under their brand name. If true (and I am almost certain it is) there is no advantage whatsoever in buying a filter from a 'dealer' when you can buy the same filter with a different label at a quality parts house. Fram may not offer the quality we would want. I used to use them, had no problems, but switched after there was so much bad press on the net. (Still havent had any problems.) I've never been a believer in the toilet paper filters, but again have seen no real data on the subject. I use Wix or Hastings. Stay away from Fram unless you want your filter made from cardboard. Chas > I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. > Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and > the $5 Purolator are the best. > > Any thoughts or independent tests on internet you can refer me to? > I use Wix or Hastings. > > Stay away from Fram unless you want your filter made from cardboard. I once cut open a used Fram PH3600A or PH25xx because I had dropped a new one and wondered if it had been damaged. The ends turned out to be metal, not cardboard. Hmm I don't recall the part # of the fram we opened, but it was cardboard inside. I think it might have been a ph8a. I work in autoparts and we have a whole box of filters that have been cut open. Wix & Hastings were the best built. > > I use Wix or Hastings. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > new one and wondered if it had been damaged. The ends turned out to > be metal, not cardboard. m6onz5a <corvair@comcast.net> wrote in article <1159260276.224079.8290@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>... > I use Wix or Hastings. > > Stay away from Fram unless you want your filter made from cardboard. > > Chas Whereas you, on the other hand, appear to prefer having your filter made of treated paper....... Interesting! Hmmm what filters did you open and find treated paper??? > m6onz5a <corvair@comcast.net> wrote in article > <1159260276.224079.8290@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Interesting! m6onz5a <corvair@comcast.net> wrote in article <1159349647.609369.247590@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>... > Hmmm what filters did you open and find treated paper??? m6onz5a <corvair@comcast.net> wrote in article <1159349515.774066.289120@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>... > I work in autoparts and we have a whole box of filters that have been > cut open. You just might want to take a peek at all those filters you claim to have cut open.......... * <nospam@this.addy.com> wrote in article <01c6e245$76b2fbe0$6d96c3d8@race>... > m6onz5a <corvair@comcast.net> wrote in article > <1159349647.609369.247590@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You just might want to take a peek at all those filters you claim to have > cut open.......... WELL.......???? >I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. > Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and > the $5 Purolator are the best. > > Any thoughts or independent tests on internet you can refer me to? Persoanlly, I like to buy the OEM Vehicle manufacturer's filters (i.e. - Motorcraft for Ford, Delco for GM, Nissan for Nissan). The only recent exception has been for my sister's Honda. I have been using NAPA Gold Filters on that. They have been trouble free (car now has 130,000 miles). For some reason, the local Honda dealer tries to screw people on the cost of filters. The Honda filter for my sister's Civic and the filters for my Nissan Frontier appear to be the same design (they cross reference in most filter books). I ordered a case of OEM Nissan Filters (and they are actually made in Japan) and they were half the cost of the similar Honda filters. I have no idea why. Ed >>I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. >>Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Persoanlly, I like to buy the OEM Vehicle manufacturer's filters (i.e. - > Motorcraft for Ford, Delco for GM, Nissan for Nissan). Why on earth? Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, etc. do NOT build their own filters. They are built and supplied by a contractor (lowest bidder that barely meets a minimum spec), and that contractor may change over the course of years. You never know WHAT you're getting when you buy an "OEM" filter. Far less than you do when you buy a name brand filter from a company that MAKEs filters (like Wix or Purolator, or yes... even Fram). > >>I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. > >>Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Why on earth? Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, etc. do NOT build > their own filters. Now that is truly a revelation...car manufacurers are outsourcing production of components. > They are built and supplied by a contractor (lowest > bidder that barely meets a minimum spec), and that contractor may change > over the course of years. Now please tell us how you came to know proprietary information such as this. How do you know in detail about the component design, bidding and product selection processes of Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan (and presumably all other car manufacturers in the world). You must be one busy guy to have gained access to so much insider information for so many multinational corporations. > You never know WHAT you're getting when you > buy an "OEM" filter. Far less than you do when you buy a name brand > filter from a company that MAKEs filters (like Wix or Purolator, or > yes... even Fram). Guess what...even if you knew who made the product you would not know how they were assembled and what products were used. The only way to gain that information would be to sit on the assembly line. Personally, I'm willing to trust the decisions of the people that manufacture cars and spend my time more wisely. Same rule applies to these small fly-by-night filter makers that proclaim their products will outperform any and all comers. >>>>I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. >>>>Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Now please tell us how you came to know proprietary information such as > this. Duhhh.... Because its NOT proprietary? Because that is and has been standard practice in the parts branch of most automakers for years (GM until recently has been a farily notable excption- when AC/Delco was their parts arm they actually had all the infrastructure to make most parts). In the case of filters, the answer is even more transparent because the filter manufacturers use assembly methods and materials that make their filters obvious at a glance (after you get used to what to look for) and you can tell who made it regardless of what's on the label. Have you actually READ that oil filter study on the MiniMopar site? > How do you know in detail about the component design, bidding > and product selection processes of Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan > (and presumably all other car manufacturers in the world). You must be > one busy guy to have gained access to so much insider information for > so many multinational corporations. You don't have to know insider information or even be particularly inquisitive to understand standard business practices. You don't have to have insider information to know that most car companies do not own a facility set up to produce filters! Or refine oil to make ATF, engine oil, gear lube, etc. Or to develop and produce coolants. ALL those things are done by contract. >>You never know WHAT you're getting when you >>buy an "OEM" filter. Far less than you do when you buy a name brand [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > how they were assembled and what products were used. The only way to > gain that information would be to sit on the assembly line. Or just be observant when you buy. LOOK at the part before you install it- that's how people realized that Mopar filters had been changed from Dana to Fram a number of years ago. > Personally, I'm willing to trust the decisions of the people that > manufacture cars and spend my time more wisely. So you actually think that the carmaker's name on the filter you get in the parts department guarantees that the filter sold there is in ANY WAY related to the one that came from the production line, other than meeting a bare miniumum spec that isn't actually tested all that closely as the supported vehicle gets older and older? You do realize that some carmakers have completely separate supply chains for manufacturing versus aftermarket support, right? And you do realize that even in the cases where the supply chains aren't separated entirely, the supplier for parts for cars a few years old isn't necessarily the same as the one that was used when the car was manufactured? Right? > Same rule applies to > these small fly-by-night filter makers that proclaim their products > will outperform any and all comers. Agreed. Those should be the LAST choice, right after dealer parts. >>>I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. >>>Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > filter. Far less than you do when you buy a name brand filter from a > company that MAKEs filters (like Wix or Purolator, or yes... even Fram). When I buy an OEM filter, I know I am getting a filter that meets the vehicle manufacturer's requirements. And I have news for you, Wix, FRAM, and Purolator don't make all their own filters either. They out source filters from each other and from third parties and sell to each other and third parties. And if you think that filter companies aren't building to the lowest spec and cost, you aren't paying attention. If you trust FRAM, you should pay more attention. For my 1997 Expedition FRAM lists a standard PH2 Filter. WRONG! This filter has the standard hard rubber anti-drainback valve and is prone to allowing the oil to drain back to the base. When this happens you get a significant period of timing chain rattle while the oil pressure builds back up. Motorcraft only recommends the FL820S Filter for this application (and they only sell FL820S filters in this size). This filter has a superior silicone antidrainback valve. FRAM does sell a filter like this, but you have to know that you need to buy the more expensive TG2 Tough Guard Filter instead of the PH2 Extra Guard Filter. I have cut the Motorcraft FL820S and FRAM TG2 Filters apart, and their is no doubt in my mind that the Motorcraft Filter is superior AND it costs less. Another thing that bothers me about FRAM is that it is very common for them to cross reference the same filter to multiple filters from other suppliers or have different cross references than the manufacturer. Ed > If you trust FRAM, you should pay more attention. For my 1997 Expedition > FRAM lists a standard PH2 Filter. WRONG! This filter has the standard hard > rubber anti-drainback valve and is prone to allowing the oil to drain back > to the base. When this happens you get a significant period of timing chain > rattle while the oil pressure builds back up. > Motorcraft only recommends the FL820S Filter for this application > (and they only sell FL820S filters in this size). This filter has a > superior silicone antidrainback valve. According to www.mr2.com/TEXT/oil_filter_test.html, only one drainback valve leaked, the Vic brand's, and it was judged to leak only insignificantly. > FRAM does sell a filter like this, but you have to know that you need to buy the > more expensive TG2 Tough Guard Filter instead of the PH2 Extra Guard Filter. > I have cut the Motorcraft FL820S and FRAM TG2 Filters apart, and their is no > doubt in my mind that the Motorcraft Filter is superior AND it costs less. I've had only one noticeable filter failure, when a Motorcraft in my VW ruptured at the bottom seam 25 years ago. But I have no evidence that any filters were better or worse than average because I've found no correlation between them and the oil tests I've had done annually. > Another thing that bothers me about FRAM is that it is very common for them > to cross reference the same filter to multiple filters from other suppliers > or have different cross references than the manufacturer. GM does that as well, not only for non-GM engines but also their own, and if you check filter catalogs you'll probably see that GM will recommend one particular filter for several of their engines where NAPA, Wix, Fram, and Lee will specify 3-4 different ones. One example is their PF56, which GM recommended even for 1980s VWs with much higher than normal relief pressure. Lee and Fram filters for the same applications had different relief pressures (or at least the Fram's valve was a different color plastic) and numbers and sizes of holes. > When I buy an OEM filter, I know I am getting a filter that meets the > vehicle manufacturer's requirements. So does a Fram listed for that application. But Fram is inferior to Wix or Purolator (or just about anything else). > And I have news for you, Wix, FRAM, and > Purolator don't make all their own filters either. There are only about 4 major manufacturers of filters. If you can exclude getting one made by Fram (which you can do by buying Puorlator or Wix), then you're OK. The problem with buying OEM is that Fram might just have gotten the OEM contract. > If you trust FRAM, you should pay more attention. I "trust" Fram to always make junk, and often sell it under various brand names. But the major manufacturers that sell under their OWN names don't buy from each other. If it is a Wix, you can bet there isn't a fram filter inside. > I have not found any independent tests regarding screw on oil filters. > Just from word of mouth I have heard that the NAPA gold or silver, and > the $5 Purolator are the best. > > Any thoughts or independent tests on internet you can refer me to? I'm not aware of any lab tests that would prove or disprove the many baseless claims made by oil and air filter manufacturers. Forums such as this one are a ready resource for plenty of anecdotes like: Brand X filters are @#$%, buy brand Y instead because they are better. If you are concerned about filter quality, in the absence of any useful information I would suggest that you wait for the dealer to put filters on sale and buy them by the box. > If you are concerned about filter quality, in the absence of any useful > information I would suggest that you wait for the dealer to put filters > on sale and buy them by the box. Yeah, do that. If you want a filter built by a random company that changes from year to year and box to box on the shelf. > > If you are concerned about filter quality, in the absence of any useful > > information I would suggest that you wait for the dealer to put filters > > on sale and buy them by the box. > > Yeah, do that. If you want a filter built by a random company that > changes from year to year and box to box on the shelf. In case you missed my other post: Now please tell us how you came to know proprietary information about the design, construction, bidding out, selction of manufacturer for Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan (and presumably all other car manufacturers in the world). You must be one busy guy to have gained access to so much insider information for so many multinational corporations. Does anyone know what brand of filters the large fleet owners use? Like NY or LA cabs or police cars that get heavy duty use. It seems they would use a proven brand that is affordable. I dont think they could afford to gamble on low quality or unpredictable filters. >Does anyone know what brand of filters the large fleet owners use? Like >NY or LA cabs or police cars that get heavy duty use. >It seems they would use a proven brand that is affordable. I dont think >they could afford to gamble on low quality or unpredictable filters. They use the cheapest possible filters. In Washington DC, some of the city vehicles get oil changes without the filters being changed, in order to save money. Of course, this is the town where folks get injured, getting hit by ambulances with bad brakes. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in article <efgp8j$9m3$1@panix2.panix.com>... > They use the cheapest possible filters. In Washington DC, some of the > city vehicles get oil changes without the filters being changed, in order > to save money. Of course, this is the town where folks get injured, > getting hit by ambulances with bad brakes. > --scott You, of course, have credible documentation for your claim? It has been proven - time and again - that the cheapest way to run a fleet is to maintain it properly, and avoid major repairs - and potential lawsuits that might come from allowing unsafe vehicles on the road. Fleet managers in larger fleet operations know, understand, and implement this concept. Saving $100 in filter replacement only to spend $1,000 on an engine rebuild does NOT save money. A good fleet manager knows this, and can prove this to his administrators. If there was ANY credibility to the "....ambulances with bad brakes....." example you cite above, there would be some sort of major lawsuit - and someone would likely be going up on criminal charges for allowing a vehicle under their management to be driven in an unsafe condition. Why was the driver driving the vehicle if it had questionable brakes? If there really IS a situation with poorly maintained, unsafe vehicles, where is the employees' union? Why didn't THEY step in and protect their brothers and sisters who must drive these allegedly unsafe vehicles? If the municiple employees are given unsafe vehicles - therefore unsafe working conditions - where's OSHA? Accidents happen - even with ambulances, fire trucks, and police cars. And, there is sometimes a mechanical problem contributing to the accident. That, in itself, does not suggest that every accident was caused by an unsafe, poorly maintained vehicle. >Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in article >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >You, of course, have credible documentation for your claim? For which claim? That the DC city vehicle management is incompetent? I can probably come up with some Washington Post articles on the subject. >It has been proven - time and again - that the cheapest way to run a fleet >is to maintain it properly, and avoid major repairs - and potential >lawsuits that might come from allowing unsafe vehicles on the road. > >Fleet managers in larger fleet operations know, understand, and implement >this concept. Fleet managers in larger fleet operations are probably paid a LOT more than the DC city government pays anyone. >If there was ANY credibility to the "....ambulances with bad brakes....." >example you cite above, there would be some sort of major lawsuit - and >someone would likely be going up on criminal charges for allowing a vehicle >under their management to be driven in an unsafe condition. There were LOTS of major lawsuits against the DC city government for this sort of thing. Exploding manholes, police officers with nonfunctioning vehicles, city busses with drivers that refused to go into bad neighorhoods. >If there really IS a situation with poorly maintained, unsafe vehicles, >where is the employees' union? Ummm... they were having enough trouble trying to get city employees to be paid with checks that weren't bad. Remember this is the city that bought computers for everyone in the parking enforcement offices, but didn't provide any software or training. After six months or so of having nonfunctioning computers on their desks, people started taking their computers home (with the blessings of management). --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Saving $100 in filter replacement only to spend $1,000 on an engine rebuild > does NOT save money. A good fleet manager knows this, and can prove this to > his administrators. Yes but that isn't what someone running fleet cares about. Cheap filters work well when they get changed often. Cheap filters fail when they get old and plugged. It's that simple. Regular maintenance means the filter never gets old and plugged. Just because some fool puts a dirty old engine with a dirty old oil filter onto a racetrack and subjects it to high oil pressure and it fails that doesn't prove any thing to someone running a fleet. Someone running a fleet buys and installs a huge number of oil filters and never sees one fail. They simply don't fail as long as oil can flow thru them freely. If nothing is restricting the flow there is nothing to cause them to fail. Your imagination is running wild. A fleet manager doesn't get into a silly discussions with an administrator about what filter to buy. He makes that decision himself and he isn't going to waste money he can use elsewhere on a filter that will hold up under catastrophic conditions that his fleet is never going to experience. A cheap filter works as good as an expensive one under the conditions his vehicles experience. The purpose of a filter is to remove dirt. Once it has accomplished that task it should be thrown away. Paying extra money for a filter that has the capability to survive well beyond the limits of the task it is designed for isn't something a fleet manager is going to care about. -jim > If there was ANY credibility to the "....ambulances with bad brakes....." > example you cite above, there would be some sort of major lawsuit - and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > That, in itself, does not suggest that every accident was caused by an > unsafe, poorly maintained vehicle. jim <"sjedgingN0sp"@m@mwt.net> wrote in article <1159535198_3241@sp6iad.superfeed.net>... > > Saving $100 in filter replacement only to spend $1,000 on an engine rebuild > > does NOT save money. A good fleet manager knows this, and can prove this to [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > -jim jim: I agree that a cheap filter - changed in a timely fashion - will do the job. However, the issue I was addressing was not the cost or quality of the filter, it was the statement that filters were not changed at all! See below.... > Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in article <efgp8j$9m3$1@panix2.panix.com>... > ...........In Washington DC, some of the > city vehicles get oil changes without the filters being changed, in order > to save money. > I agree that a cheap filter - changed in a timely fashion - will do the > job. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > city vehicles get oil changes without the filters being changed, in order > > to save money. I doubt that is the policy. And it was only mentioned as an aside. You snipped the part that said: "They use the cheapest possible filters." which was the answer given to the question asked. -jim jim <"sjedgingN0sp"@m@mwt.net> wrote in article <1159539165_3699@sp6iad.superfeed.net>... > > I agree that a cheap filter - changed in a timely fashion - will do the > > job. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > -jim Step back a couple of posts there, son. I did NOT snip "They use the cheapest possible filters." when I first responded - the post to which YOU initially responded..... ....only in my most recent post to make sure you saw the part about not changing filters at all. > Does anyone know what brand of filters the large fleet owners use? Like > NY or LA cabs or police cars that get heavy duty use. > It seems they would use a proven brand that is affordable. I dont think > they could afford to gamble on low quality or unpredictable filters. Depends on the vehicle but most NYPD vehicles get either Baldwin or Wix. The patrol cars get oil/filter changes every 3 weeks. NY State police upstate get WIX (99% of there work is done in NAPA supplied shops) They also run full synthetics in them. Now the State Employee cars are a different matter. Those are no longer in house vehicles, they are all leased and the service contracts go with them to the leasing dealers. Used to be that all the State vehicles were owned and maintained in house. SignatureSteve W. >> Does anyone know what brand of filters the large fleet owners use? Like >> NY or LA cabs or police cars that get heavy duty use. It seems they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > them to the leasing dealers. Used to be that all the State vehicles were > owned and maintained in house. The Wifey's office has a GSA car. They are told by GSA when to take it to the "authorized shop" for it to be serviced. The schedule works out to about the "light duty" maintenance interval for the given vehicle. They do the bare minimum to keep it on the road. The lease expires around 50k and it gets auctioned off. |
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