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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2006

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Problem with our sable

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bubblegummom - 01 Oct 2006 02:27 GMT
We have a 1989 (I think, sorry) Mercury Sable. The wheels have a
special lug nut that requires a special tool to take it off. Somewhere
back there the tool got lost. Now if we have a flat tire we're sunk.
Any suggestions? I wish somehow we could get them off and just replace
them with plain ones, but how to get them off? Thanks!
MT-2500 - 01 Oct 2006 04:08 GMT
bubblegummom Wrote:
> We have a 1989 (I think, sorry) Mercury Sable. The wheels have a
> special lug nut that requires a special tool to take it off. Somewhere
> back there the tool got lost. Now if we have a flat tire we're sunk.
> Any suggestions? I wish somehow we could get them off and just replace
> them with plain ones, but how to get them off? Thanks!

A good tire shop should be able to get them off.
They have some special tools to handle most of them.
Good Luck
MT

Signature

MT-2500

http://www.automotiveforums.com

Dan  Beaton - 01 Oct 2006 04:16 GMT
> We have a 1989 (I think, sorry) Mercury Sable. The wheels have a
> special lug nut that requires a special tool to take it off. Somewhere
> back there the tool got lost. Now if we have a flat tire we're sunk.
> Any suggestions? I wish somehow we could get them off and just replace
> them with plain ones, but how to get them off? Thanks!

A Google search returned many hits for 'removing wheel locks'. Here is
one: www.toolsource.com.

A large tire shop should be able to help you. If the wheel locks
were factory equipment, your dealer should be able to help you.

Dan

(This account is not used for email.)
sdlomi2 - 01 Oct 2006 15:50 GMT
> We have a 1989 (I think, sorry) Mercury Sable. The wheels have a
> special lug nut that requires a special tool to take it off. Somewhere
> back there the tool got lost. Now if we have a flat tire we're sunk.
> Any suggestions? I wish somehow we could get them off and just replace
> them with plain ones, but how to get them off? Thanks!

   Someone handy with a chisle and hammer can remove just about any lug
nut.  Hammering at an angle on the outer edge will 'cut' a notch which when
hammered on (into) counterclockwise will move the lug nut a little at each
blow & will loosen it.  HTH, s
bubblegummom - 01 Oct 2006 17:52 GMT
I know nothing about cars, but this will even remove a "locking" lug
nut? Maybe it's time my sons learned to use a hammer and chisel! I hope
it works!

Loretta

> > We have a 1989 (I think, sorry) Mercury Sable. The wheels have a
> > special lug nut that requires a special tool to take it off. Somewhere
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> hammered on (into) counterclockwise will move the lug nut a little at each
> blow & will loosen it.  HTH, s
sdlomi2 - 01 Oct 2006 22:10 GMT
>I know nothing about cars, but this will even remove a "locking" lug
> nut? Maybe it's time my sons learned to use a hammer and chisel! I hope
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> each
>> blow & will loosen it.  HTH, s

   Hey, bubblegummom, notice that I said SOMEONE HANDY WITH A CHISEL AND
HAMMER--which means an experienced mechanic.  This technique can be
dangerous if attempted by an inexperienced person, due to the fact that a
hardened lugnut can shatter, sending metal shards thru the air like a
bullet!  Really I shouldn't have mentioned what we do in the 'roughneck
world'.  s
Lawrence Glickman - 01 Oct 2006 22:49 GMT
>>I know nothing about cars, but this will even remove a "locking" lug
>> nut? Maybe it's time my sons learned to use a hammer and chisel! I hope
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>bullet!  Really I shouldn't have mentioned what we do in the 'roughneck
>world'.  s

Throwing my penny into the piss pot...I have a nut splitter I bought
at Sears.  You just use a wrench to turn a wedge into the nut and it
breaks it on that one side.

If that won't allow you to *wrench it off* from there...then you have
"issues" with the automobile.  At that point, flip the nut splitter
180 degrees and go after the other side.  Result will be a nut broken
in half.  Knock it off with a tap from a hammer at that point, if it
doesn't fall to the ground on its own.

Lg
aarcuda69062 - 02 Oct 2006 00:11 GMT
> Throwing my penny into the piss pot...I have a nut splitter I bought
> at Sears.  You just use a wrench to turn a wedge into the nut and it
> breaks it on that one side.

Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
recessed enough that you can't get at the side of them with a nut
splitter.
I just MIG a scrap nut on the end of them and buzz 'em off with
the 1/2' gun.
Lawrence Glickman - 02 Oct 2006 01:52 GMT
>> Throwing my penny into the piss pot...I have a nut splitter I bought
>> at Sears.  You just use a wrench to turn a wedge into the nut and it
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>I just MIG a scrap nut on the end of them and buzz 'em off with
>the 1/2' gun.

Indeed, alloy wheels are very very expensive.  Mine go for about $200
each, $800 for the set, and that's not counting the tires!  Of course,
I might get a discount somewhere, then again, maybe not.

They take special lug nuts, that have an extended cone to go deep into
the wheel.  My understanding about this is this design is it is
supposed to provide maximum gripping power so they don't come lose.

That means, even if you split the part of the lug nut you can get to,
the cone is still recessed in the wheel.  But like I said, if you
can't wrench off the lug nut with a channel lock pliers after breaking
1 side of it, cone notwithstanding, there is something seriously
wrong.

Your idea of MIG welding a scrap nut on the end of them is a very good
idea...if you have a MIG welder, although I wouldn't try such a trick
myself, in fear of buzzing an onboard computer chip or sensor
somewhere with the current flowing through the vehicle:

ground to one wheel stud

hot rod to frozen nut

path of current should stay confined to wheel itself and not effect
any other part of the vehicle.  But I would be afraid to try it.  My
luck, I would blow out a microchip somewhere.

Lg
aarcuda69062 - 02 Oct 2006 13:45 GMT
> path of current should stay confined to wheel itself and not effect
> any other part of the vehicle.  But I would be afraid to try it.  My
> luck, I would blow out a microchip somewhere.
>
> Lg

Just follow the proper procedures for welding on a vehicle.
Bodyshops do it all the time when they replace major body panels.
Lawrence Glickman - 02 Oct 2006 02:56 GMT
>Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
>aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
>recessed enough that you can't get at the side of them with a nut
>splitter.

OK, I'm going out to my vehicle to see that the nut splitter can fit
around the lug nuts.  It is curious, that my lug nuts have an O.D.
that -just- fits inside the splitter.  Will report back.

Lg
Lawrence Glickman - 02 Oct 2006 03:02 GMT
>Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
>aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
>recessed enough that you can't get at the side of them with a nut
>splitter.

Well there ya go.  Once again, the real world jumps up and bites me in
the a.s.  NO WAY to get the nut splitter around the recessed lug nuts,
because...they are recessed ;-|

Forget about it then.  I need to get out more.  Or maybe not.

Lg
Bob - 02 Oct 2006 05:07 GMT
>>Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
>>aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Lg

When it come to vehicles, things are never as simple as they seem.
Lawrence Glickman - 02 Oct 2006 05:26 GMT
>>>Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
>>>aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>When it come to vehicles, things are never as simple as they seem.

How true.  Stuff you would never even think about happens.
Example:
you know possibly that I've been using a venturi siphon ( powered at
90 psi by an air compressor ) to pull the oil out of my car through
the dipstick tube.

Well, earlier I used that plastic hose to drain some gasoline from my
garage space heater.  That turned the flexible plastic hose into
steel.  All of a sudden, I couldn't get it down the dipstick tube
anymore, as it had to compress at one point to make it past some kind
of narrowing of the passageway.  Evidently, the gasoline had a
chemical reaction with the plastic hose, taking all the chemicals that
gave it flexibility, OUT.

I spent a day looking for replacement hose that would do the job.  The
dipstick itself is 4.65 millimeters wide.  Trying to find hose that
wouldn't bulge and stick at the constriction was futile.

Some time later, I got the idea to use the sheathing from electrical
cable.  I pulled the wires out of the cable, and intend to use the
outside insulation for the dip stick tube probe to reach to the bottom
of my oil sump.  I now know I can make it more rigid by running
gasoline through it, but I don't want it to brake off inside the
car...forcing me to drop the oil pan, which is a total PITA on this
vehicle, since other stuff ( e.g. starter motor ) has to be pulled
before that can even happen.

Long story short...SIMPLE sh.t on a car is a figment of our
imaginations.  In my limited experience, NOTHING is simple, except for
perhaps putting fuel into the gas tank.  Even filling you windshield
washer reservois is Not Simple, if you're dealing with a full gallon
jug and don't have a funnel handy!

It's a PITA.  Anybody who does this for a living is a masochist.

Lg
phaeton - 02 Oct 2006 17:12 GMT
> It's a PITA.  Anybody who does this for a living is a masochist.
>
> Lg

That's part of the reason I quit doing it.  Well, that and I couldn't
make any f*cking money at it, no matter where I worked.

So I sold all my tools and stuff, and now I do IT work.  Sometimes I
wonder if I've actually done myself a favor or not.

-phaeton
Lawrence Glickman - 02 Oct 2006 17:34 GMT
>> It's a PITA.  Anybody who does this for a living is a masochist.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>-phaeton

I slaved on machinery of every kind you can think of, for all my
working life/career.  Over 30 years.  PITA doesn't begin to describe
it.  Of course, machinery is _necessary_.  You wouldn't want to live
in a world without it, so I never had much of a problem finding a job
in no time at all.  That's is why I stuck with that line of
work...sort of a job security kind of thingy.  I always had a paycheck
within a few weeks of leaving somewhere else.  Competing against
hundreds if not thousands of other *applicants,* because of my Resume
credentials.

Now I look back, and say to myself "Thank G-D THAT IS OVER WITH!"

I couldn't take another day/week/hour of standing over a greasy,
electrified monstrosity that could tear me limb from limb without
slowing down 1 rpm if I made a *wrong move* at any moment.

Now the thing of it is, obsolescence forces one to stay in college on
the job forever, as older machinery you're familiar with is replaced
with the latest and the greatest.  So we could have been magicians
with yesterday's technologies, but now that they've gone the way of
the dinosaur, the younger bucks fresh out of school are going to beat
our a.ses sorry.  They can and will work harder, longer, for less
money, and have the latest information on stuff that is just coming to
market.

So as we grow older, we lose the endurance, the knowledge, the *will*
to rise through adversity for fame, glory, and money, because we now
know the ropes, and how companies operate, and have been scammed and
bamboozled enough times to say "f.ck it, YOU CAN TAKE THIS JOB AND
SHOVE IT"

So that's where I stand on the *issue* of sacrificing my mind body and
soul on the alter of corporate America.  They can shove it, cause I
ain't working here no more.

Lg
John S. - 02 Oct 2006 18:58 GMT
> >>>Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
> >>>aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> It's a PITA.  Anybody who does this for a living is a masochist.

Working on cars is really no big deal.  You just have to know what you
are doing and have the right tools.  And you have to know when to stop
and call in someone with more skills.

> Lg
Lawrence Glickman - 02 Oct 2006 19:25 GMT
>> >>>Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
>> >>>aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>>
>> It's a PITA.  Anybody who does this for a living is a masochist.

=============================================================
>Working on cars is really no big deal.  You just have to know what you
>are doing and have the right tools.  And you have to know when to stop
>and call in someone with more skills.

That is fortunately an option, but since I am living hand to mouth as
it is...it isn't always an option.

I have some tools.  Can do some things.  Limited.  Better in most
cases than nothing at all...putting myself at the mercy of the
*artists* out there, some who know how to play the music, and others
who know how to play the customer.

I just reviewed my Service Contract, and it is for 6 years, or 75k
miles, whichever comes first.  This is a good thing.  It is a 2003
vehicle, so I have 3 years left on my service warranty, emissions
components notwithstanding.

That means I have ANOTHER 36 months of warranty on major components
like engine and tranny, than I thought I did.  So...what me worry?
Not about _that_.  Not for another 3 years, I should live so long.  

Even with $100 deductible, it beats the $hit out of paying $3,500 for
a new transmission (AX4N IIRC).  Or a head gasket problem, or anything
else you can think of wherein the parts cost more than 50 bucks.

IOW, if *the job* looks like it is going to cost me more than $100 out
of pocket expenses for parts, off to the stealership it goes ;-\
Warranty pays parts and labor, but on MAJOR ITEMS ONLY.  The small
stuff I'll continue to do myself, to save a penny here, and a Henny
Penny there.

Lg
Mike Romain - 02 Oct 2006 19:46 GMT
> >> >>>Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
> >> >>>aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>
> Lg

So let me get this right...  You have a freaking 'new' vehicle that you
refuse to drain the sludge that gathers in the oil pan out of????

That engine will be garbage likely before the warranty runs out...

I had a friend like that.  He drove it until the oil pressure gauge
started going to 0.  It was still under 'warranty' but he didn't want to
pay to have it checked out so he came to me.

When the bottom was opened because only goo would come out the oil
drain, it had about 6" of sludge in it.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
John S. - 02 Oct 2006 19:55 GMT
> > >> >>>Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
> > >> >>>aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
> When the bottom was opened because only goo would come out the oil
> drain, it had about 6" of sludge in it.

Reminds me of the female in my family who bought a new chevy pickup
truck.  Never changed the oil and first took it in for service when the
engine seized at 25,000 miles.   The excuse...no one said the oil had
to be changed.  All of her previous cars burned or leaked so it was a
matter of adding.

> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Lawrence Glickman - 02 Oct 2006 20:09 GMT
On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:48:10 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:>
>So let me get this right...  You have a freaking 'new' vehicle that you
>refuse to drain the sludge that gathers in the oil pan out of????
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>When the bottom was opened because only goo would come out the oil
>drain, it had about 6" of sludge in it.

Actually, yesterday, no the day before, I put the car up on my Rhino
Ramps and put new oil and oil filter into and on the vehicle.  The
*old* stuff had 5,000 miles on it ( Mobil 1 ).

Yes it was BLACK.  But not like tar, just colored like tar, but it
still flowed nicely.

So, new oil and filter is now in the vehicle.

Lg
aarcuda69062 - 03 Oct 2006 01:51 GMT
> It's a PITA.  Anybody who does this for a living is a masochist.
>
> Lg

Masochist?  Maybe.

Being crazy helps...

From time to time, I'm asked to address our youth who are
contemplating a career as a mechanic.  They ask what's the best
way to become a mechanic, I reply;

First thing you do is fill your mouth full of marbles.
Every time you fix a car, spit out one marble.
When you're lost all your marbles, you can call yourself a
mechanic.
Lawrence Glickman - 03 Oct 2006 03:00 GMT
>> It's a PITA.  Anybody who does this for a living is a masochist.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>When you're lost all your marbles, you can call yourself a
>mechanic.

Now that's funny ;-)
My luck, I would choke to death on them.  Marbles?  Yes I bought a bag
of them at the hobby shop when I was in there to get something for my
dog.  I still have a few here and there...thought the cats might like
to play with them, but they're spilled alright...no doubt about that!

Let's face it.  Being a Mechanic is Dangerous Work.  You can get
killed, you can get injured.  You can do something right 100 times in
a row and on the 101st time, Trouble jumps up and bites you in the
a.s, and if you live to tell the tale, you remember =never= to take
anything for granted, never to become complacent.  And its hard work.
It's honest work, but hard work, and it will take its toll on you
body, mind, and spirit, as the years go by.

More power to you if you're still doing it at *my age.*  Call me 61,
and happy my livelihood doesn't depend on beating the monkey into
submission anymore.

Lg
ray - 03 Oct 2006 03:14 GMT
>>>It's a PITA.  Anybody who does this for a living is a masochist.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Lg

ahh... all jobs suck at one time or another.
My day job is server support (I.T.) and as a result, I'm lifetime free
tech support for everyone who asks after hours.  And, if I do fix their
PC and something else breaks two days later, it's my fault.  I joke that
I'm a computer mechanic.

I could have been a mechanic, but it's just too brutal here in Winnipeg
in winter to fix cars - either in -40 boosting them, or having them drip
all over you inside.  But I can stay up until 1am sanding and painting
my race car only to smash it up two days later....

Ray
Lawrence Glickman - 03 Oct 2006 04:08 GMT
>ahh... all jobs suck at one time or another.

Some suck more than others.  It's Good to be The King.

>My day job is server support (I.T.) and as a result, I'm lifetime free
>tech support for everyone who asks after hours.

That's very generous of you.  Most people would charge for their
time/labor, but you give it away for nothing.  hmmm.  You must be
overpaid.  

>  And, if I do fix their
>PC and something else breaks two days later, it's my fault.  I joke that
>I'm a computer mechanic.

Well, there are all levels of "This and That."

Now that a lot of computers have gone modular, most people can put one
together from parts at the local Tiger Direct.  You buy a motherboard,
power supply, a couple few hard drives, an OS, and you're in business.
It ain't rocket science no more.  Used to be though, way back when.
These days, you buy stuff off the shelf, bolt and wire it together,
and off you go.  I've done it myself on my own equipment.

>I could have been a mechanic, but it's just too brutal here in Winnipeg
>in winter to fix cars - either in -40 boosting them, or having them drip
>all over you inside.

It's brutal work period, depending on your age and the problem at
hand.  Imagine having an endless stream of city busses pulling into
your garage for preventive maintenance, or their scheduled overhaul.
What a nightmare.

>  But I can stay up until 1am sanding and painting
>my race car only to smash it up two days later....

Now that doesn't make any sense to me.  You still have enough energy
left over to mow the lawn or shovel the snow?

Lg
ray - 03 Oct 2006 15:21 GMT
>> ahh... all jobs suck at one time or another.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> time/labor, but you give it away for nothing.  hmmm.  You must be
> overpaid.  

Actually, that's why I DON'T do tech support on the side for anyone
that's not a relative.  My rates are $100/hour.  Or they can call
geeksquad.com or someone who cares.  I'm too busy to "decontaminate"
and/or fix broken PC's for people for free anymore.

> Now that a lot of computers have gone modular, most people can put one
> together from parts at the local Tiger Direct.  You buy a motherboard,
> power supply, a couple few hard drives, an OS, and you're in business.
> It ain't rocket science no more.  Used to be though, way back when.
> These days, you buy stuff off the shelf, bolt and wire it together,
> and off you go.  I've done it myself on my own equipment.

Good for you.  It's not hardware anymore, it's malware/viruses, the
usual Windows crapware problems that everyone want fixed... I've had
machines given to me with over 1,000 pieces of malware on it.  No one
wants to pay me per hour either, so I don't bother anymore.

>> I could have been a mechanic, but it's just too brutal here in Winnipeg
>> in winter to fix cars - either in -40 boosting them, or having them drip
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> your garage for preventive maintenance, or their scheduled overhaul.
> What a nightmare.

I know.  That's why I'm not a mechanic... I like cars, but doing brake
jobs 8 hours a day sounds like work to me.

>>  But I can stay up until 1am sanding and painting
>> my race car only to smash it up two days later....
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Lg

Mow the lawn?  You mean the stuff that grows around the dead cars? ;)
Shovel the snow?  that's why I own a four wheel drive. ;)
I have an 18 month old... I don't have energy to do anything anymore.

Ray
philthy - 05 Oct 2006 00:36 GMT
take it to a tire store they will have the special tool to remove the
locking lugnut

> >Just guessing here but, if it's got wheel locks, they're probably
> >aluminum wheels.  usually with aluminum wheels, the lug nuts are
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Lg
Lawrence Glickman - 05 Oct 2006 01:44 GMT
>take it to a tire store they will have the special tool to remove the
>locking lugnut

I don't think locking lugnuts are going to stop a determined thief.
Here where I live, they will just pull up with a towtruck and haul off
what they want.  It's in a chop shop 20 minutes later, and that's the
end of it.

If the tire store has a special tool to remove the wheel, then a car
thief has one also.  But why take the wheels when you can have the
entire enchilada?  In a fraction of the time?  Here they'll just take
the entire vehicle, or if its broken down by the side of the road,
everything but the paint.

Lg
Bob - 02 Oct 2006 04:00 GMT
>>I know nothing about cars, but this will even remove a "locking" lug
>> nut? Maybe it's time my sons learned to use a hammer and chisel! I hope
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> bullet!  Really I shouldn't have mentioned what we do in the 'roughneck
> world'.  s

Due to the fact that they are hardened, a chisel won't cut a notch and
glickmans nutsplitter won't split them. What does usually work is to cut a
groove in them with a cutoff wheel and then go after that with a hammer and
chisel. Like sdlomi2 says.... they can break or shatter.... use appropriate
safety measures.
                                                Bob
Bob M. - 01 Oct 2006 19:10 GMT
>> We have a 1989 (I think, sorry) Mercury Sable. The wheels have a
>> special lug nut that requires a special tool to take it off. Somewhere
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> when hammered on (into) counterclockwise will move the lug nut a little at
> each blow & will loosen it.  HTH, s

Take an impact socket that's too small (but -almost- the right size) to
slide over the special nut.  Heat it up with a torch (it will expand a
little when hot) and hammer it on to the nut. Let it cool down. When it
cools it will contract and tighten on the nut.  Use a socket wrench or
breaker bar to take the nut off the stud and put a regular nut on in it's
place.
John S. - 01 Oct 2006 21:22 GMT
> We have a 1989 (I think, sorry) Mercury Sable. The wheels have a
> special lug nut that requires a special tool to take it off. Somewhere
> back there the tool got lost. Now if we have a flat tire we're sunk.
> Any suggestions? I wish somehow we could get them off and just replace
> them with plain ones, but how to get them off? Thanks!

Don't send your son (or anyone else) after that lug nut with a chisel,
for more than one reason.  Just take it to a tire shop, or the dealer.
They will have the correct tools to remove the wheels, and can
substitute a standard lugnut for the special one.
 
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