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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2006Which electric car is best?
Hi all, I'm interested in going electric, since all the trips that I make are short and on local roads, and electricity is so cheap. I am curious to learn whether any one electric car has stood out as being both a good value. Needless to say, Consumer Reports has never reviewed electric cars. But surely someone has done a 'round up' of the current models? Or should I buy a kit to convert an existing car to electric? If so, which kit is best? I assume I would buy a VW Rabbit or similar for that. Thanks for any info. > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any info. If you are willing to wait a few years, Mitsubishi may have something to offer. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/report_mitsubis.html#more > Hi all, > > I'm interested in going electric, since all the trips > that I make are short and on local roads, and > electricity is so cheap. The electricity may be cheap but the cars aren't. This one is affordable though. http://www.revaindia.com/ Graham >> Hi all, >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Graham good Lord, that isn't a car, its a Fischer Price Toy > >> Hi all, > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > good Lord, that isn't a car, its a Fischer Price Toy All of them are. You should see the rest ! I picked a decent one. Graham >> >> Hi all, >> >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> > >> >Graham =============================================== >> good Lord, that isn't a car, its a Fischer Price Toy > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Graham That's a *decent one*??? It looks like a piece of crap. I wouldn't give anyone $30 for that piece of sh.t. If that's The Future, I'm glad I won't be around to see it. Lg > If that's The Future, I'm glad I won't be around to see it. About the smartest comment I've seen on usenet. > > If that's The Future, I'm glad I won't be around to see it. > > About the smartest comment I've seen on usenet. Heck - look at the cars in 'Brazil' ! http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/microcars_for_c.php Graham >> If that's The Future, I'm glad I won't be around to see it. > > About the smartest comment I've seen on usenet. Very objective and scientifically based. > >> >> Hi all, > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > If that's The Future, I'm glad I won't be around to see it. There seems to be a perverse desire on the part of 'alternative' providers of vehicles to convert us to nothing more than turbo'd 'milk floats' ! Graham >>> >> Hi all, >>> >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > If that's The Future, I'm glad I won't be around to see it. It is not intended to run around highways. It is a city runabout. Perfect for its intended use. >>good Lord, that isn't a car, its a Fischer Price Toy > > All of them are. > > You should see the rest ! I picked a decent one. Your bias is showing.... > >>good Lord, that isn't a car, its a Fischer Price Toy > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Your bias is showing.... Eh ? They actually sell some in the UK ! I'm being kind. Graham >> Hi all, >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Graham The major problem with all electric cars that Ive seen so far is that whilst the car has very low running costs, electricity is cheap, the batteries needed to give the car any useable range arnt. The most common batteries used in EVs are either Lithium Ion or Nickel Metal Hydride , both of which are very good hi energy density and good performance , but limited life relataive to the life of the actual car. Most EV manufacturers are silent on how long the batteries will last and on how much they will cost to replace. From my experiance with fixing lap top computers which commonly use Lithium Ion batteries, average life is about 2 years, so if you are happy with having to replace your EVs battery every 2 years or so then go for it. In the case of the Riva it appears to use Lead Acid batteries which are heavier and of lower energy density than Li Ion or NIMH. If you are thinking of buying an EV , make sure you get some info on how long the batteries will last , and what their replacement cost is. > >> Hi all, > >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > whilst the car has very low running costs, electricity is cheap, the > batteries needed to give the car any useable range arnt. Indeed and they're heavy too which doesn't help overall efficiency. > The most common batteries used in EVs are either Lithium Ion or > Nickel Metal Hydride , both of which are very good hi energy density > and good performance , but limited life relataive to the life of the > actual car. > Most EV manufacturers are silent on how long the batteries will last > and on how much they will cost to replace. Because no-one really wants to talk about it. It's EVs' little secret. > From my experiance with fixing lap top computers which commonly use > Lithium Ion batteries, average life is about 2 years, so if you are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you are thinking of buying an EV , make sure you get some info on > how long the batteries will last , and what their replacement cost is. I couldn't agree more. Battery longevity ( and improvements in same ) are critical to successful future EVs. Not to mention weight and capacity too ! And then there's the little matter of how to heat or cool your car in uncomfortable weather as well. Graham > Indeed and they're heavy too which doesn't help overall efficiency. Do show your numbers. There was one production vehicle several years ago that had shown 50% grid to road. What do you want? At that, 70% is technically achievable from the numbers I ran.... > > Indeed and they're heavy too which doesn't help overall efficiency. > > Do show your numbers. There was one production vehicle several years ago > that had shown 50% grid to road. What do you want? > > At that, 70% is technically achievable from the numbers I ran.... If I had the tiniest clue what you were going on about I could comment. As ever you're just being intentionally obscure. Graham >>....... >> In the case of the Riva it appears to use Lead Acid batteries which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I couldn't agree more. There is no reason to think of replacing the whole battery pack at once, although when batteries are in parallel, they need to be close to being "matched". A well designed but easily removed interlock- connection panel can make checking batteries and only replacing bad ones feasible. >Battery longevity ( and improvements in same ) are critical to successful >future EVs. > >Not to mention weight and capacity too ! Don't you accept that with good regenerative braking weight is not as critical an issue? The entry of ultracapacitors has just happened, but can quickly make a big difference in performance and range. With ultracapacitors, EVs would be boring, but with them, the future is exciting. A national race of EVs would help, EVs competing against ICE cars, and the EVs would probably always win with ultracapacitors. Just the difference between 600 or 800 cranking volts of regular lead-acid batteries and my 1000 cranking amps NAPA sealed gel cell "orbital" battery is impressive in starting the old car, several people have noticed and remarked. Ultracapacitors can do the same for acceleration, an electric motor can deliver much more than rated power for a short time as long as it has time to cool between traffic lights. I don't know about other countries, but in the US, an EV needs to be a normal size car, nobody wants to drive a miniature car on the same road as regular traffic. I would like to have a lightweight EV, but there is no place to drive one. >And then there's the little matter of how to heat or cool your car in >uncomfortable weather as well. >Graham Come on, what did people do before 1940? :-) What do people do to heat or cool an RV without a grid connection? While the driving part would be cool to be all plugin electric, there is no reason to be without at least one small generator, just one of the regular ones like for emergency generation. I saw a small two stroke at Mejiers for $148 the other day. Maybe somebody will decide to adapt an outboard boat motor to an emergency generator with water cooling, and that could be connected to a heater. There needs to be a lot of EV mechanics that can use common sense, but auto mechanics are hard to find now except at dealer garages. Joe Fischer > >>....... > >> In the case of the Riva it appears to use Lead Acid batteries which [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > battery pack at once, although when batteries are in parallel, > they need to be close to being "matched". You're drivelling. Graham >> >>....... >> >> In the case of the Riva it appears to use Lead Acid batteries which [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >You're drivelling. >Graham http://rcsource.hobbypeople.net/faqs/matchedb.htm Joe Fischer ... > There is no reason to think of replacing the whole > battery pack at once, although when batteries are in parallel, > they need to be close to being "matched". ... With more advanced battery management systems, such as used in the T-Zero, smaller battery packs can be managed individually. Then individual packs can be replaced as needed without having to match them to the entire assembly. Anthony >> There is no reason to think of replacing the whole >> battery pack at once, although when batteries are in parallel, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to match them to the entire assembly. >Anthony That has to be the best looking car around. http://www.acpropulsion.com/ Joe Fischer >... >> There is no reason to think of replacing the whole [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Then individual packs can be replaced as needed without having >to match them to the entire assembly. I don't see how having ten $500 packs is a great improvement over a single $2000 assembly especially when they all wear out together. > The major problem with all electric cars that Ive seen so far is that > whilst the car has very low running costs, electricity is cheap, the > batteries needed to give the car any useable range arnt. So you want your cake and eat it too.... > > The major problem with all electric cars that Ive seen so far is that > > whilst the car has very low running costs, electricity is cheap, the > > batteries needed to give the car any useable range arnt. > > So you want your cake and eat it too.... Who doesn't ? Graham >>> Hi all, >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and good performance , but limited life relataive to the life of the > actual car. Most current EVs have lead acid or NiCd At Lithium Polymer, it seems the batteries will last longer than the cars http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html > Most EV manufacturers are silent on how long the batteries will last > and on how much they will cost to replace. > From my experiance with fixing lap top computers which commonly use > Lithium Ion batteries, average life is about 2 years, so if you are > happy with having to replace your EVs battery every 2 years or so then > go for it. I have a 6 year old Lithium Ion in one of my older notebooks at 60% original capacity  SignatureRoland Mösl http://car.pege.org cars and traffic http://live.pege.org building and live http://www.pege.org On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:26:03 +0200, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Roland_M=F6sl?= <founder@pege.org> wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >I have a 6 year old Lithium Ion in one of my older notebooks >at 60% original capacity I have too , and you can get LiIon to last longer. Thats not the problem. The problem is that the battery manufacturers wont provide any kind of long term warranty on their batteries, even if they claim they will last 10 years. Given that most existing car manufacturers arnt in the battery business, they have to buy the batteries from 3rd parties and if the battery manufacturer wont warrant the batteries it means the car maker has too, and thats a huge risk when the batteries cost from $5K to $20K each. Just recently, Dell Computers had to recall 4 million lap top computers to replace their defective Lithium Ion batteries. Fortunately Lap top computer batteries dont cost $5K to $20K each . http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06231.html ... <other attributions lost>... >>>Most EV manufacturers are silent on how long the batteries will last >>>and on how much they will cost to replace. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > long term warranty on their batteries, even if they claim they will > last 10 years. There seem to be a number of companies coming out with better lithium batteries that last longer than older ones and are less likely to catch fire and explode. Hopefully they'll offer warranties if they ever start being used in EV's. This is one of them, I believe. http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/cells.html That said, it's unusual to find any manufacturer that will warranty their cars for 10 years. Most of them that do offer 10 year warranties use weasel words to limit the coverage dramatically. Anthony >> Hi all, >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Graham judging from this OLD article it looks like they want a handout for each vehicle. Big shock there... Japan hands REVA $2,600 welcome note - Narayanan Somasundaram, Bangalore, 12 December REVA Electric Car Company has secured a $2,600 subsidy per car from the government of Japan. Following this, the company is demonstrating its electric variants in select cities of Japan and hopes to ship out cars to Japan in the next two months. This type of subsidy is similar to the one obtained from the UK government. In UK the REVA has firm orders for the supply of 500 cars, the subsidy offered to customers stands at 1,000 pound sterling. Chetan Kumaar Maini, deputy chairman and CTO Reva Electric Car Company said, "In the short term export markets will be crucial. But in the longer run the brand image gained from overseas exports will hold it in good stead in the changing Indian market." He added that the subsidy gained from Japan is apart from the tax concessions for non-polluting variants. The foray into Japan will test the REVA, as Japan did dabble with electric variants before giving up because of high prices. The company has already appointed a distributor who has a dealer base of around 35 across Japan. To start with, Reva will be offered in selected cities and based on the response extended to other areas. Chetan Maini said that, to in· crease capacity utilisation, orders from overseas market will matter. REVA has a 6,000 car annual capacity. Besides a few hundred units exported to UK, the company has put on Indian roads under 900 vehicles since its inception. Apart from interesting the general crowd in Japan, the company expects to benefit from the government regulation. The regulation mandates 10 per cent of all government vehicles should be electric variant by 2005. The success in Japan will boost the brand image of REVA globally. Added to it, the company is working out a branding/promotional strategy, which it expects to unveil next year. Also market acceptance will assist the company access much needed global funding. The company for quite some time now has been negotiating a $15 million private equity funding. Chetan Maini hopes to conclude this within the next couple of months. SignatureSteve W. > I am curious to learn whether any one electric car > has stood out as being both a good value. > Needless to say, Consumer Reports has never > reviewed electric cars. But surely someone > has done a 'round up' of the current models? There are no current models. No one makes them. Anthony > > I am curious to learn whether any one electric car > > has stood out as being both a good value. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > There are no current models. No one makes them. Oh but there are ! And they mostly look like really really bad jokes except the mega-bucks ones. Graham >>>... But surely someone >>>has done a 'round up' of the current models? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And they mostly look like really really bad jokes except the mega-bucks > ones. There are variations on golf carts that are electric vehicles. Sometimes they are called 'neighborhood electric vehicles'. They are usually limited in speed to something like 25 to 30 mph. They are not legal on any road posted over (if I recall) 40 mph. Their range is usually limited to around 20 to 25 miles and their safety features are non-existent. I do not consider these to be proper cars. They are not legal on any highway, freeway or most major streets here in Los Angeles. There are some concept cars, prototypes and 'any day now' cars which are very expensive but workable with both good speed, range and acceleration. As yet, only a handful of these have been built and none are being sold to ordinary mortals today. There were a couple of models made previously, the Toyota Rav4, the GM EV1, some Ford Ranger trucks and the like. Only a handful of them still exist and no one makes them anymore. Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. The nearest you can get is to convert a hybrid like the Prius into a 'plug in hybrid' by installing larger batteries and misc other parts. Anthony > Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. The one I linked to is street legal ! http://www.goingreen.co.uk/ An electric Smart is on the way btw. That may finally make EVs look credible since it's a 'real' car. Graham >> Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. >The one I linked to is street legal ! >http://www.goingreen.co.uk/ >An electric Smart is on the way btw. That may finally make EVs look credible >since it's a 'real' car. They make theese in Norway, or rather, they retrofit new Smarts that they get as "gliders"* *Cars withouth engine/transmission. SignatureSEE YA !!! Trygve Lillefosse AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King > >> Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. > >The one I linked to is street legal ! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They make theese in Norway, or rather, they retrofit new Smarts that > they get as "gliders"* Who does this ? > *Cars withouth engine/transmission. You're from Norway it seems. Greetings. It's a lovely place if somewhat expensive ! Whereabouts do you live ? Graham >> >> Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. >> >The one I linked to is street legal ! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> they get as "gliders"* >Who does this ? Theese guys: http://www.miljobil.no/english/index.html "Enviromental cars Grenland" BTW: If I remember correctly, they use SAFT batteries with operates at 3oo(?) degrees celsius Think they sell at about u$ 30.000 at the moment. They are also planning on geting gliders from other manufacturers aswell. Also in Norway: http://www.think.no/ http://kewet.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7&bakgrunn=english >> *Cars withouth engine/transmission. >You're from Norway it seems. Greetings. It's a lovely place if somewhat expensive >! Whereabouts do you live ? Nice to hear that you like Norway. I live in Bergen, second larges city with about 250K inhabitants. It's true that it's expensive here, but the salaries are high. We dont have minimum wages, but the defacto minimum vage is about u$12-15/h If you ever hav the possibility, you should visit Bergen, lofoten and svalbard. (bring lots of cash or a loaded credit card.:-)) SignatureSEE YA !!! Trygve Lillefosse AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King >>Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. > > The one I linked to is street legal ! > http://www.goingreen.co.uk/ Street legal in London but not available in the United States. It's specs leave a lot to be desired as well... : The G-Wiz AC Drive, offering 45 mph, range up to 48 miles per charge It wouldn't be able to drive on any freeways around here (Los Angeles) and there are even an occasional city street that is posted higher than 45 mph. Anthony > >>Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and there are even an occasional city street that is posted higher > than 45 mph. The electric Smart will make more sense. Deliveries commence shortly in the UK but supplies are very limited. Graham >> >>Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. >> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Graham It's a glorified Golf Cart. If you don't want to get run over by a field mouse or a rabbit, I would put lights all over the thing to make it VISIBLE. Lg > >> >>Simply put, no one makes a street (freeway) legal electric car. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > field mouse or a rabbit, I would put lights all over the thing to make > it VISIBLE. Have you actually been in a Smart ? It's is not small at all in fact it's quite a bit taller than the average car. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_(automobile) Graham > Have you actually been in a Smart ? > > It's is not small at all in fact it's quite a bit taller than the average > car. I was in one a couple years ago as a passenger. I found it to be a very enjoyable ride. Maybe after a while it would be small, but the diesel version gets good mileage. > > Have you actually been in a Smart ? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a while it would be small, but the diesel version > gets good mileage. If I had the parking space and a bit more spare cash, I'd unquestionably run a Smart for town / city use and quite happily for 20-30 miles trips too. They're very nice little cars in fact. And very spacious inside since they're designed just for two. Great view of the road too. Graham ... > The electric Smart will make more sense. Deliveries commence shortly in > the UK but supplies are very limited. ... I think the electric Scion Xb looks like a winner, though I think it would be better with wheel motors like the electric mini. I like the idea of being able to plug my house into it during power failures. http://www.stefanoparis.com/piaev/acpropulsion/eBox/ebox.html http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html Anthony >> I am curious to learn whether any one electric car >> has stood out as being both a good value. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > There are no current models. No one makes them. Of course not. This civilization is spoiled by cheap energy. > Anthony Best, Dan. > I'm interested in going electric, since all the trips > that I make are short and on local roads, and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I assume I would buy a VW Rabbit or similar > for that. In a view years, there will be many different nice electric cars or plug in hybrids. That's all because of new battery technology. Lithium Polymer is about 8 times better for use in vehicles than lead acid. You could use different approaches to this Toyota Prius+ That's a Prius converted with 9 kWh Lithium Phosphat batteries from http://www.valence.com to a plug in hybrid. I heared the conversion is about $9000 Electric range around 50km with 20% remaining in the battery. After this, it's just a normal Prius. Or has it to be under all cirumstances a car? If You are in a urbn area where all Your ways are with low speed, the cheapest approach to electric vehicles would be an electric scooter like the E-Max S. Here in Germany just for 2300.-EUR Or just coming on the market, a maxi scooter with nice performance http://auto.pege.org/2006-ever-monaco-2-rad/vectrix-maxiscooter.htm SignatureRoland Mösl http://car.pege.org cars and traffic http://live.pege.org building and live http://www.pege.org The best car I have seen so far has been the Tesla --> http://www.teslamotors.com <-- !! SignatureBing Bang Boom Voila Done! > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any info. > The best car I have seen so far has been the Tesla --> > http://www.teslamotors.com <-- !! Which is fine if you have $80,000 to spare ! Graham > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks for any info. If you can find it: http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/18-07-06_9 (This uses a Zebra liquid sodium nickel chloride battery. I thought these had to run at high temperature, so I do wonder how they achieve this.) If you can afford it, there's the Tesla. The best concept car I've seen is the PML Mini PHEV. http://www.fastcar.co.uk/640_break_Hybrid_Mini.YWAUvkhoa2rmWw.html >Hi all, > >I'm interested in going electric, since all the trips >that I make are short and on local roads, and >electricity is so cheap. Conversion Special; http://www.ev-america.com/EVASpecial.html Parts Catalog; http://www.ev-america.com/ EV companies; http://www.oeva.org/forsale/ Some vehicles http://www.oeva.org/forsale/ Some vehicles : ebay; http://search.ebay.com/electric-vehicle Old Ad; http://cgi.ebay.com/1899-FISCHER-CO-WOODS-ELECTRIC-MOTO-VEHICLES-AD_W0QQitemZ120 040387259QQihZ002QQcategoryZ13559QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Joe Fischer > Hi all, > > I'm interested in going electric, since all the trips > that I make are short and on local roads, and > electricity is so cheap. Where is electricity so cheap. Unless you are using a wind turbine or solar panels you will be buying electricity that in most locales in the U.S. has a deregulated price. > I am curious to learn whether any one electric car > has stood out as being both a good value. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Thanks for any info. >Where is electricity so cheap. Unless you are using a wind turbine or >solar panels you will be buying electricity that in most locales in the >U.S. has a deregulated price. What is a deregulated price and why is it bad? Joe Fischer I wish I lived in California and grid was >$.30 > >Where is electricity so cheap. Unless you are using a wind turbine or > >solar panels you will be buying electricity that in most locales in the > >U.S. has a deregulated price. > > What is a deregulated price and why is it bad? I wasn't saying it was necessarily good or bad. But the price of electricity in many areas is no longer a set rate fixed by a local public utility commission. Consequently the cost of charging up an electric car could be quite high. At one time providers of electricity were considered to be a quasi public entity, or a privately owned company providing a public service. In exchange for having a monopoly over a given market the price of electricity would be set by a governmental entity. In a burst of de-regulatory fervor the tightly controlled structure was scrapped and market-based pricing of electricity was phased in. In theory opening the business of generating and delivery of electricity to the market was supposed to have attracted lots of competitors and held prices down. What has happened is that there has not been an increase in suppliers. > Joe Fischer I wish I lived in California and grid was >$.30 reply to replies or you are a troll. >Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Thanks for any info. >I'm interested in going electric, since all the trips >that I make are short and on local roads, and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I assume I would buy a VW Rabbit or similar >for that. Citroen and Pegueot makes a few electric cars. Mostly kangoo/belingo and saxo. If you can afford it, I would sugest a Toyota prius, and then use a convertion pack to make it into a plug-in hybrid(about $1000-1500 I think). It may also be possible to add more batteries. SignatureSEE YA !!! Trygve Lillefosse AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King >>I'm interested in going electric, since all the trips >>that I make are short and on local roads, and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>I assume I would buy a VW Rabbit or similar >>for that. >Citroen and Pegueot makes a few electric cars. Mostly kangoo/belingo >and saxo. >If you can afford it, I would sugest a Toyota prius, and then use a >convertion pack to make it into a plug-in hybrid(about $1000-1500 I >think). It may also be possible to add more batteries. That should pay for itself in savings about . . . . . . never. >>I'm interested in going electric, since all the trips >>that I make are short and on local roads, and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >convertion pack to make it into a plug-in hybrid(about $1000-1500 I >think). It may also be possible to add more batteries. Its closer to $8000 US , and heres the bad part, the conversion completely voids your prius warranty. The replacement battery comes with just 2 years warranty and costs approx $7000 to replace. Its interestting to note that Toyota actually have made a number of Plug in versions of the Prius , but they wont mass produce them stating that battery reilability is simply not good enough. If you can believe the press, the Tesla has to be near the top. 400 km on a charge, 3 hour recharge time, and powerful performance. How can you beat it? (if it is true) > If you can believe the press, the Tesla has to be near the top. > > 400 km on a charge, 3 hour recharge time, and powerful > performance. How can you beat it? (if it is true) Look at the price ( $80,000 ) ! Check this one out too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PML_Mini_QED Graham |
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