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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2006Floor jack on a chevy venture.
Hi Folks, I recently purchased a floor jack to jack up my 2003 Chevy Venture in order to get a jack stand under it. I wasn't sure where to put the jack to raise the car so I called an auto parts store where the worker told me that I can either put it at the base of the control arm or the thickened metal portion underneath the car that runs from front to back of which there are two on either side of the midline (which he said was some sort of support portion of the car). I opted for the second option and it worked fairly well - I heard some clicks and creaks and pops, but in general everything worked just fine and I got the jack stand on the side of the frame where the spare tire jack is supposed to fit. When I lowered the car everything looked fairly good, but I did notice that this 'thickened metal portion' was slightly bent at the position at which the jack raised the car. So my question is: does anyone see anything wrong with what I've done, with the clicks and pops, with the slight bending of this metal portion, with the placement of the jack stand at the 'spare tire' side of the frame, etc.? Thanks for your help everyone. > Hi Folks, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > with the slight bending of this metal portion, with the placement of the > jack stand at the 'spare tire' side of the frame, etc.? Yup, I do see something wrong with bending what is probably a portion of the external body. At the very least you have probably cracked whatever protective coating there was and possibly creased or torn the metal. The chances of that portion rusting out are much greater. I am very concerned for your safety in the future, because if you put the jack in the wrong place the car could suddenly slip off and injure you. > Thanks for your help everyone. You just started destroying the unibody 'frame' rails. Where you crushed them the strength has been taken out and the temper blown so they will start rusting and crumbling there before anywhere else on the vehicle. You also will have hurt the resale value because folks will think the underside is rotted and not structurally safe if they see collapsed areas. I was actually expecting you to say 'the door wouldn't close now' when I started reading the thread. There is a reason they have those 'jacking points' on unibody vehicles, they are reinforced and designed to hold the weight of the vehicle. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Hi Folks, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Thanks for your help everyone. It's interesting because many people have told me that you have to lift the car by the frame - could you explain where I should lift the car? Thanks! > You just started destroying the unibody 'frame' rails. Where you > crushed them the strength has been taken out and the temper blown so [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> >> Thanks for your help everyone. > It's interesting because many people have told me that you have to > lift the car by the frame - could you explain where I should lift the > car? Well, then lift it by the subframe! You won't hurt anything by lifting on the subframe, or the lower control arms. The subframe, by the way, is the large black rectangular metal piece that the control arms are bolted to, the rack is bolted to....etc. Ian >It's interesting because many people have told me that you have to lift the >car by the frame - could you explain where I should lift the car? > >Thanks! On the edges, where the tire jacking points are designated by a SLOT cut into the weld flange. Each wheel/tire has a SLOT where the jack is supposed to go for lifting that CORNER of the vehicle. I can lift mine high enough from one corner to take two wheels at a time off the ground, without bending anything. Ideally, you use ramps if you don't need to work on the wheels, or jack each side at the lifting points, and then put jack stands there as you go along. Be certain you are on solid concrete when you do this. If a car falls off its jack stands and lands on you, that's the End of the Movie. Roll Credits. Lg >> You just started destroying the unibody 'frame' rails. Where you >> crushed them the strength has been taken out and the temper blown so [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >>> >>> Thanks for your help everyone. You have one subframe that the engine sits on. The rest is called a unibody and has non load bearing 'frame' rails in it for it's own support. If you look in the owners manual or the glove box or maybe where the spare or jack is, there should be a diagram that shows you where the factory jacking points are. These are places in the unibody that are reinforced for jacking up either a side or corner of the vehicle. Floor jacks don't work on all vehicles. Lots are too low to get the jack under the subframe or end of the shock tower. Jacking on a control arm will bend them too. Mike > It's interesting because many people have told me that you have to lift the > car by the frame - could you explain where I should lift the car? [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > >> > >> Thanks for your help everyone. Mike, Thank you for your help - the owners manual only mentions reinforced portions on the sides of the unibody near each of the four wheels. The problem is that I cannot jack the car up from this point and simultaneously get a jack stand at this point, so I need to find a safe place to jack the car up from. Would you recommend jacking the car up from the subframe (the metal portion that supports the engine)? > You have one subframe that the engine sits on. The rest is called a > unibody and has non load bearing 'frame' rails in it for it's own [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] >> >> >> >> Thanks for your help everyone. I recommend you use the jacking points and put the jack stand under the subframe or even use the floor jack as the 'jack stand' because it will fit better sometimes. 'Lots' of times you can't get the floor jack started under the frame, 'especially' if you have a flat tire, but once the stock rail jack gets the vehicle up, the floor jack can then be put under for a safety or to lift more while keeping the rail jack in place for the safety. I remove the jack handles so they can't be bumped and leave the jacks in place. I also remove the tire and lay it on the ground under the subframe or vehicle edge or axle so if the above jack and second safety jack or jack stand fails, it is only coming down as far as that rim and tire will let it. For driveway stuff, blocking the wheels and using 2 jacks to get something up safely and easily is pretty common. Mike > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > >> >> > >> >> Thanks for your help everyone. > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > car up from. Would you recommend jacking the car up from the subframe (the > metal portion that supports the engine)? Use a decent medium frame jack rated for ~2.25 tons. These can be had for $50 to $100 new from places like Harbor Freight, Sears, autp parts stores, etc. Place the saddle on the front center of the engine subframe. Lift the front up and place jack stands under the outside pinch rails just behind the front tires. Look for a spot that is fairly well reinforced, or consult your owners manual for a picture of the recommended spots to use. Carefully lower the jack down and make sure that the jack stands don't move or pivot excessively as the vehicle's weight settles onto them. Toyota MDT in MO >> Mike, >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO And then rock the snot out of it before proceeding. If it falls off the stands, better it does it before you're under it. And if you think that's just crazy, watch someone reefing on a rusted shock bolt or something and see how much the car shakes. Ray > jack under the subframe or end of the shock tower. Jacking on a > control arm will bend them too. No it won't. I've jacked up cars on the control arms for over 25 years. Never bent one yet. You would have to be stupid to bend a control arm. The particular vehicle he's describing is quite capable of being jacked up on the control arms. Ian > > jack under the subframe or end of the shock tower. Jacking on a > > control arm will bend them too. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ian I live in the rust belt and when I see vehicles that have crushed body rails from jacking, these same vehicles usually have bends/crush marks in the control arms also. The control arms also move and if someone isn't 'really' careful and really smart, the floor jack can slid on them or slide off them. Maybe I just see the results from 'stupid' people? As mentioned, there 'are' proper jacking points on that vehicle so why not just use them? Or is that asking too much? Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > As mentioned, there 'are' proper jacking points on that vehicle so why > not just use them? Or is that asking too much? Those jacking points are there simply for the customer when they get out their factory jack. You don't really think we use those points in the shop do you? Every now and then, your so-called "proper" jacking points happen to coincide with where I am going to put the arms of my hoist...but it's pretty rare. There are numerous far better places to jack up vehicles. Of course, don't mind me, I only lift 5-10 vehicles a day on my hoist, anything from a Cavalier to a Corvette. Ian > > As mentioned, there 'are' proper jacking points on that vehicle so why > > not just use them? Or is that asking too much? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ian You are not in a driveway.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Floor jacks don't work on all vehicles. Lots are too low to get the > jack under the subframe or end of the shock tower. Jacking on a control > arm will bend them too. > > Mike this I gotta see to believe. What vehicle cannot be jacked up via a control arm because it will bend? Ray > > Floor jacks don't work on all vehicles. Lots are too low to get the > > jack under the subframe or end of the shock tower. Jacking on a control [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ray I guess I am just used to seeing older big vehicles from the rust belt... Why use the control arm when the lower ball joint is there? Jeeps for one won't hold the weight safely on the bottom end of the control arms, even when new. They are just pressed metal and the edges will bend which if even a little can mess up the bushing inside it causing it to fail early or just take the temper out so it rots early. Same deal for the OP's unibody's 'frame rails'. They are not designed for that many psi in the one place that a floor jack puts on them. Why does everyone seem to have issues with using the 'factory' designed jacking points or 'real' frame or subframes on vehicles??? There 'is' a reason the factory builds them that way.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >>> Floor jacks don't work on all vehicles. Lots are too low to get the >>> jack under the subframe or end of the shock tower. Jacking on a control [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) I don't have an issue with using the correct points, but sometimes my two floor jacks are either too big or too small to reach the "correct" points to lift the car easily. I lift the wife's Beretta either on the front subframe, control arms or rear axle. My TA is hard to get a jack under the front end, so I usually do the control arms from in behind the wheels. I'm pretty sure that on both cars that's an allowable lift point... I'd have to double check my manual for sure. Jeeps must have flimsy control arms. ;) And no, you never jack up the floor of a regular car. You can't just lift anywhere... there are correct places to lift. Ray > Jeeps for one won't hold the weight safely on the bottom end of the > control arms, even when new. They are just pressed metal and the > edges will bend which if even a little can mess up the bushing inside > it causing it to fail early or just take the temper out so it rots > early. I knew you were thinking of the Jeep style of control arm. They have almost nothing in common with the control arms commonly found on GM minivans. I wouldn't jack up a Jeep on those control arms, either, but then any sane person could see that you have a solid axle to jack up and wouldn't go there. By the way, there are other type of vehicles in the world other then Jeep. Ian also remove the tire and lay it on the ground under the subframe or vehicle edge or axle so if the above jack and second safety jack or jack stand fails, it is only coming down as far as that rim and tire will let it. Excellent safety precaution!!!!!!!!!!!!  SignatureKnifeblade_03 http://www.automotiveforums.com |
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