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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2006

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Dealer/OEM Tools

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phaeton - 24 Oct 2006 18:26 GMT
Just a quick question....

Seems that in a lot of cases when working on Fords, many procedures
require a special tool to uninstall or install a certain component or
align a mechanism for assembly, etc.  Note the recent thread about the
Mondeo brakes.  Years ago, I recall buying a set of tools once for
removing the fuel filters on an F250 (but later borrowed a different
set for a Taurus), I remember once using a special tool on a mid-90s
Crown Victoria differential...on and on...  Most of these tools can be
bought from the dealership, but I don't know if that's the only place
to get them.  I didn't work on other makes as often, but I don't
remember having to pick up anything "special" to work on Toyotas,
Nissans, GMs or such.

Are other auto manufacturers as "tool crazy" as FoMoCo?

Thanks

-phaeton
Rodan - 25 Oct 2006 00:46 GMT
.. working on Fords, many procedures require a special tool
to install a component or align a mechanism.  I bought a set
of tools once for removing F250 fuel filters and a special tool
for a mid-90s CV differential. Most tools can be bought from
the Ford dealership.  I don't know if that's the only place.

I don't remember having to pick up anything "special" to
work on Toyotas, Nissans, GMs or such.    Are other auto
manufacturers as "tool crazy" as FoMoCo?
__________________________________________________

The auto parts stores all have displays of handy, rarely-needed
special tools, such as special bolts, fuel-line connector releases,
brake spring tools, etc.   I have found tools there for GM, Ford
and Chrysler work.   Some tools are so rarely needed they are
only available from the dealer.

As for Fords:   A $5.50 special tool is required to remove the
radio from my 97 F250.   It has 4 rods with balls on their ends,
to be stuck into 4 holes beside the radio to release it.    I am
still steamed about this "tool crazy" design.   If anyone knows
how to get the radio out without buying the tool, please let
me know.    AutoZone sells the tool but does not lend it.

Best regards to all RATers.

Rodan.
phaeton - 25 Oct 2006 03:14 GMT
> As for Fords:   A $5.50 special tool is required to remove the
> radio from my 97 F250.   It has 4 rods with balls on their ends,
> to be stuck into 4 holes beside the radio to release it.

I wasn't going to mention how 'silly' these tools were, but well....
;-)

The special tool I used on the differential was a piece of pipe with an
angled piece of steel welded to the middle.  $35, used it once on a job
that paid me $40

bleh.

I didn't realize the parts stores have these now.  I'm a Ford guy
(typically, though I tend to love all cars in general) but if I'm going
to buy a race car maybe I should get into something that's less
"tooly", if you take my meaning. ;)

-phaeton
Steve Walker - 26 Oct 2006 01:56 GMT
> .. working on Fords, many procedures require a special tool
> to install a component or align a mechanism.  I bought a set
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Rodan.

Just did this on my brother's '95 F-150. Getcha 4 nails that fit into
the holes . Push them in in until you hit resistance. (spring clips
mounted on radio). Push in about 1/2" to 3/4" more. Push the heads of
all the nails sideways towards the side windows while pulling the radio
out. Might take 2 people.

Signature

Steve Walker
fusion640@verizonwallet.net (remove wallet to reply)

aarcuda69062 - 26 Oct 2006 04:01 GMT
> As for Fords:   A $5.50 special tool is required to remove the
> radio from my 97 F250.   It has 4 rods with balls on their ends,
> to be stuck into 4 holes beside the radio to release it.    I am
> still steamed about this "tool crazy" design.   If anyone knows
> how to get the radio out without buying the tool, please let
> me know.    AutoZone sells the tool but does not lend it.

Lemme get this straight...

You're complaining about a $5.50 tool that turns a multi dozen
fastener removal/ bezel removal, possibly drop the steering
column, stripped screws, broken / scratched trim, etc. into what
amounts to a 30 second slide it out of the dash job?
dsguy - 25 Oct 2006 03:06 GMT
> Just a quick question....
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> -phaeton

they all tend to be, to some degree. fortunately, most of the tool
manufacturers pick up on this stuff fairly quickly (if the auto
manufacturers let them), so we're not in the dark for too long.
the best tool manufacturers to go to find those special tools are
snap-on, mac, matco, cornwell, etc.
the downside to these guys are that they sell directly to repair shops
via trucks. they might have online shoping, but i haven't checked into
that.
y_p_w - 28 Oct 2006 00:51 GMT
> they all tend to be, to some degree. fortunately, most of the tool
> manufacturers pick up on this stuff fairly quickly (if the auto
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> via trucks. they might have online shoping, but i haven't checked into
> that.

Well - the drain bolt on 2004+ Subaru manual transmissions and auto
tranny-version front differentials requires a T-70 Torx head to remove.
I ended up buying one online for $29 made by a German company
(Stahlwille).  At the time, I couldn't find any other retailer that had
it.  I even rushed out to a Snap-On truck when it was going near my
office in Downtown Berkeley, California (there are a few small repair
shops).  I sent an email to Lisle Tool, and the responder said they
weren't even aware that any automakers were using a T-70.

I think it's easier to find now, but I can't help but think it was a
deliberate attempt to keep people from doing it themselves.  A
repair shop would probably be willing to spend on such a tool.
Lisle now makes one, and for over $20 less than I paid.  :-(

http://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=1423
DeserTBoB - 28 Oct 2006 17:41 GMT
>> they all tend to be, to some degree. fortunately, most of the tool
>> manufacturers pick up on this stuff fairly quickly (if the auto
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>http://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=1423 <snip>

Get used to Torx drivers.  Torx is replacing slot, Phillips, Allen and
other fasterner configurations slowly by surely, due to excellent
strip resistance and much higher torque capacity.  The US industry
auto industry has been using Torx for smaller fasteners since the
'80s, notably Chrsyler.
y_p_w - 28 Oct 2006 18:23 GMT
>>Well - the drain bolt on 2004+ Subaru manual transmissions and auto
>>tranny-version front differentials requires a T-70 Torx head to remove.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> auto industry has been using Torx for smaller fasteners since the
> '80s, notably Chrsyler.

I know Torx is everywhere, including the headliner anchor
bolts on Honda vehicles.  However - picking a Torx T70 was
a piece of work.  Snap-On now sells one for $35:

<http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=74767&group_ID=376
&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
>

I know the professional mechanic probably can justify the
Snap-On part, but I find that Lisle makes decent tools for
the DIY'er.  I know T70 was defined and there were the
occasional manufacturers, but it took a while for the
more available tool brands to start selling them.  Oh
here's the plug:

<http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=transmissionplugkb1.jpg>

And here's my T70 socket:

<http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t70xu1.jpg>
Comboverfish - 28 Oct 2006 18:41 GMT
> And here's my T70 socket:
>
> <http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t70xu1.jpg>

That's likely the stubbiest torx bit I've seen.  I guess thats a good
thing for a monster like the T-70.

Toyota MDT in MO
y_p_w - 28 Oct 2006 18:59 GMT
>>And here's my T70 socket:
>>
>><http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t70xu1.jpg>
>
> That's likely the stubbiest torx bit I've seen.  I guess thats a good
> thing for a monster like the T-70.

It's a little over 2 inches long.  The Snap-On version
is listed at 3.5 inches.  I could imagine that it could
slip easily.
dsguy - 28 Oct 2006 19:05 GMT
> Get used to Torx drivers.  Torx is replacing slot, Phillips, Allen and
> other fasterner configurations slowly by surely, due to excellent
> strip resistance and much higher torque capacity.  The US industry
> auto industry has been using Torx for smaller fasteners since the
> '80s, notably Chrsyler.

unfortunately, the torx bit tools they're selling aren't capable of
handling the torque load that's being used on them. for example the
bottom four bolts on the side cover a GM 4t60&65e front wheel drive
trans are so tight, i break the torx socket almost every time. i use
mac & snap on tools almost exclusively. i agree, though, that torx
bolts are much better for smaller stuff than philips or straight.
Comboverfish - 28 Oct 2006 19:15 GMT
> > Get used to Torx drivers.  Torx is replacing slot, Phillips, Allen and
> > other fasterner configurations slowly by surely, due to excellent
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> mac & snap on tools almost exclusively. i agree, though, that torx
> bolts are much better for smaller stuff than philips or straight.

That's probably the threadlocking compound at work.  You gotta love
it...

Regarding flat blade screws, anyone who still is incorporating these
things into an automobile should be harassed with cutlery.

Toyota MDT in MO
J J - 26 Oct 2006 14:07 GMT
Its common knowledge that Ford, Lincoln, Mercury are much harder to work
on than other cars.  Even simple repairs take long time because you have
to remove something else to get rid of it.

Replacing the thermostat on a Ford V8 shops charge extra because of an
extra hour required to do it.  They have to take off distributor to get
it out.     On my Nissan it was a 15 minute job to replace thermostat.

This is one of the reasons they probably deserve to go bankrupt.  What
comes around goes around.
mandtprice@gmail.com - 26 Oct 2006 15:41 GMT
> Its common knowledge that Ford, Lincoln, Mercury are much harder to work
> on than other cars.  Even simple repairs take long time because you have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> This is one of the reasons they probably deserve to go bankrupt.  What
> comes around goes around.

Are you serious?  Every car has its own repair quirks.  For any given
vehicle there will be jobs that are easy and jobs that seem to be way
more difficult than they should be.  Some kinds of vehicles are
guaranteed to be more work, vans and compacts come to mind.

I just did the water pump on my wife's Camry.  Step one is to remove
the alternator, power steering reservoir, cruise control, right motor
mount, right front wheel and fender skirt.  The next step is to remove
the crank shaft pulley, timing belt cover and timing belt.  Give me a
dead water pump in my Taurus any day, or either the Luminas or Impala
that I drove before that.

Matthew
cavedweller - 26 Oct 2006 16:25 GMT
> Its common knowledge that Ford, Lincoln, Mercury are much harder to work
> on than other cars.  Even simple repairs take long time because you have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> This is one of the reasons they probably deserve to go bankrupt.  What
> comes around goes around.

Hmmm. "Its" got me coming and going...or going and coming...whichever.
clifto - 31 Oct 2006 02:17 GMT
> Its common knowledge that Ford, Lincoln, Mercury are much harder to work
> on than other cars.  Even simple repairs take long time because you have
> to remove something else to get rid of it.

I'd bet a dollar you drive a GM car that needs its engine pulled to change
spark plugs.

Signature

"...by March 2000, President Clinton informed Congress he could no longer
certify that 'North Korea is not seeking to develop or acquire the capability
to enrich uranium.'"
<http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/northkorea/nuclear.html>

mandtprice@gmail.com - 26 Oct 2006 15:25 GMT
> Just a quick question....
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> -phaeton

I'm going to go out on a limb here based on your nick'.  You wouldn't
by any chance be a volkswagen fan, would you?

The absolute worst car for special tools was a '89 VW Fox that I had
for a few years.  I picked up a copy of the offical VW approved repair
guide - very helpful, btw - and the thing read more like a tool catalog
than an instruction manual.
 Step 1 - go to dealer and get special tools 123-x, 456-y, 789-z and
rs-00-444
 Step 1 (alt) - swear and throw things as you hurt yourself or try to
figure out what the special tools would have looked like because you
are too cheap to do the real Step 1.

I can understand when an O2 sensor or a fuel or AC line needs a special
tool, but when half the engineering that goes into the car ends up in
the dealer tech's tool chest, that's a problem.  Most of the special
tools that other cars need aren't unique to that make and model, just
to the job.

Here's an example.  The top of the front shock towers had this combo
piece of hardware where a bolt with a hex socket passed through a nut.
This was what set which way the bottom of the shock pointed.  You could
try to do this with a standard wrench and hex key, but to really get
things done you needed the socket VW made with window cutout of the
side so that you could hold the alignment steady while you torque the
bolt.

Matthew
phaeton - 26 Oct 2006 20:01 GMT
> I'm going to go out on a limb here based on your nick'.  You wouldn't
> by any chance be a volkswagen fan, would you?

Yes and no. :-)

I actually first 'picked up' the moniker of "phaeton" from the old
Phaetons Ford built in the 1930s ("Phaeton" is actually a body/carriage
type, not necessarily a model name.  Many auto manufacturers used it in
the 30s, and they lifted the name from a horse carriage type common in
the 1800s).

I've been fascinated with the name since somewhere in the 1980s, and
have 'used' it in various incarnations since (Started a rock band in
the 90s called "Phaeton", etc).  Up until VW built the "Phaeton" (of
which btw, is not a true Phaeton by 1930's definition), most people on
the Internet thought I was referencing Greek Mythology (Phaeton was the
son of Helios, the sun God.  He borrowed his dad's car and wrecked it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pha%C3%ABton

But since then, I get asked if I'm a VW fan a lot.  I really like the
air-cooled VWs from yore (Note that they have long ceased to exist here
in the Corrosion States, though) .  I think it's really cool that VW
sells diesel passenger cars in N. America.  There needs to be more
manufacturers offering diesels here, IMHO.  And also note that both VW
and Mercedes have completely 'defanged' the diesel.  All the noise and
smell that everyone complains about is virtually gone.  They're a far
cry from the big diesel GM cars of the 80s that everyone seemed to
loathe.

So... that's probably a helluvalot more answer than you bargained for
:-)

> The absolute worst car for special tools was a '89 VW Fox that I had
> for a few years.  I picked up a copy of the offical VW approved repair
> guide - very helpful, btw - and the thing read more like a tool catalog
> than an instruction manual.

That cracks me up.  "A tool catalogue" is what I felt about some Ford
docs too.   I'll disagree with the post above about Fords being "well
known to be hard to work on", however.  I think I've had the greatest
displeasure of working on cars when it came to wiring on British cars,
carburetion/intakes on certain Chrysler products and just about
anything forward of the steering wheel on cars made by Subaru.

Disregarding that, a Subaru Wagon will likely be my next New Car
Purchase.
TeGGeR® - 28 Oct 2006 01:13 GMT
>> I'm going to go out on a limb here based on your nick'.  You wouldn't
>> by any chance be a volkswagen fan, would you?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> manufacturers used it in the 30s, and they lifted the name from a
> horse carriage type common in the 1800s).

A phaeton is an open car with a collapsible roof that attaches to the top
of the windshield. It has neither rollup windows nor side screens.

Signature

TeGGeR®

Pete C. - 27 Oct 2006 18:21 GMT
> Just a quick question....
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> -phaeton

A couple comments on the "special service tool" thing.

First and foremost is that whining about having to spend $10 for a
special tool or $100 for the service manual to service your $20k+
vehicle seems silly to me. These are absolutely negligible costs, you'll
spend vastly more on oil changes and other routine service items over
the service life of the vehicle so get some perspective on the nominal
costs for the documentation and tools needed to do things yourself and
save labor costs.

Next up is the tools themselves, the "official" tools from SPX and
others tend to be a bit pricey, but are also very durable for commercial
shop use. There are off brand versions of most of them which are
available at auto parts stores which are cheaper and just fine for
occasional use.

As someone noted, some of the tools are very simple, just a few parts
welded together. In the older official factory manuals they gave full
instructions for fabricating these yourself in your shop and indeed some
were not available any other way. I believe the more recent manuals
still have a few examples of this.

Pete C.
phaeton - 27 Oct 2006 23:35 GMT
> First and foremost is that whining about having to spend $10 for a
> special tool or $100 for the service manual to service your $20k+
> vehicle seems silly to me.

No complaints at all about buying a service manual.

It just seems odd that every other car manufacturer in the world would
engineer something the same way for 100 years, but yet the one you are
working is engineered in a certain manner that requires a specific tool
that may or may not be useful on any other make or model.  This
requirement is especially stinging when this unusual engineering feat
doesn't garner the vehicle any obvious benefit in durability,
reliability, adjustment or performance.

Otherwise, sorry.

-phaeton

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