I Hate Wheel Alignment

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jim evans - 07 Nov 2006 15:13 GMT

<rant on>
I hate wheel alignment.

Often you aren't sure the work is needed either before or after the
work is done. It's a mysterious process based on light beams and
computers and whether esoteric numbers are close enough, and normally,
you can't tell any difference after it's done -- you don't know if
anything was even done. You have to trust a person of unknown
competence and honesty that it was needed and that he did it right. It
costs a lot and seems to be mostly for the purpose of saving tire
wear, when an entirely new set of tires only costs about 3-4 times the
cost of an alignment. So, unless it extends the tire life by a third
to a half it's not worth the cost. It doesn't last. If you hit a chug
hole, curb, or almost anything it knocks the alignment out.
<rant off>

-- jim

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Al Bundy - 07 Nov 2006 15:38 GMT

> <rant on>
> I hate wheel alignment.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> -- jim

So don't get one unless you need one based on tire wear or have
replaced a steering part such as a tie rod that would likely alter
alignment. Also a good idea to get it checked when you have to strain
your arms to drive straight down the road.

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John S. - 07 Nov 2006 19:55 GMT

> <rant on>
> I hate wheel alignment.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> you can't tell any difference after it's done -- you don't know if
> anything was even done.

It's that way with a lot of repair work. Ever get a call from the
mechanic saying the pads are down below minimum? I take repeat
business to people I'm comfortable with.

> You have to trust a person of unknown
> competence and honesty that it was needed and that he did it right.

Until you find someone you are comfortable with any mechanical repair
is a bit of a crapshoot. That's why it doesn't pay to continually shop
around for the cheapest price.

> It
> costs a lot and seems to be mostly for the purpose of saving tire
> wear, when an entirely new set of tires only costs about 3-4 times the
> cost of an alignment.

Yes, and driving with the wheels out of alignment and out of balance
can be a great muscle builder too.

> So, unless it extends the tire life by a third
> to a half it's not worth the cost. It doesn't last. If you hit a chug
> hole, curb, or almost anything it knocks the alignment out.

I enjoy driving a car that is well maintained and runs properly. This
past year I was able to squeeze 60,000 miles from a set of low profile
235 45 17 tires, a size not known for long life. Other guys beat the
hell out of their tires, never get them balanced or rotated and might
get 10,000 from a comparable set.

> <rant off>
>
> -- jim

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Steve - 07 Nov 2006 21:35 GMT

> <rant on>
> I hate wheel alignment.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> -- jim

Well, I disagree on a few points.

First, if alignment is needed you sure as hell CAN tell, and you CAN
tell when its done right. A good alignment can change the driving
character of a car from night to day.

Second, a little bit of study renders the numbers no longer "esoteric."
Its engineering, not art. There are no opinions, no gray areas, no
accounting for taste (well, not entirely true- you can set alignment
parameters like camber and caster aggressively for handling, or more
optimally for tire wear, but let's just stick to factory specs here).
Its either right or wrong. Now if the frame is tweaked, it may have to
stay "wrong" but a competent alignment shop can minimize any error as
much as possible and in many cases make the car drive well enough that
you'd probably never notice it.

Thirdly, it DOES last. It takes a lot more than a pothole or curb to
knock the alignment out on a well-made car. On all the cars I've owned,
I've rarely needed an alignment more often than once every 75,000 miles
or even more. Now, its true that most of my cars are "trucks" by modern
standards (rear-drive American iron from the 60s and 70s). But my wife's
little front-drive 93 Intrepid holds its alignment as well as any of the
old cars, if not even a little better... that is until the problematic
tie rod bushings on its Saginaw steering rack wear out, but the cool
thing is that replacing them brings it right back into spec. without
even having to have it aligned again).

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jim evans - 07 Nov 2006 22:41 GMT

>First, if alignment is needed you sure as hell CAN tell, and you CAN
>tell when its done right. A good alignment can change the driving
>character of a car from night to day.

We disagree.

>Second, a little bit of study renders the numbers no longer "esoteric."
>Its engineering, not art. There are no opinions, no gray areas,

My alignment guy disagrees with you.

I get a printout of the numbers. ALL of values, both before and after
are within the range (tolerance) quoted on the printout. When I ask
why it needed to be aligned if all the parameters were within
tolerance, the answer is, "Yes, but they weren't optimal."

>Thirdly, it DOES last. It takes a lot more than a pothole or curb to
>knock the alignment out on a well-made car.

Again, my alignment guy disagrees with you, and he's been in the area
for 30+ years and has a sterling reputation.

-- jim

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Stephen H - 08 Nov 2006 05:56 GMT

>>First, if alignment is needed you sure as hell CAN tell, and you CAN
>>tell when its done right. A good alignment can change the driving
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> -- jim

As someone who would get paid on alignments you look at the numbers to see
if it is a sell. IE a car with the total toe within specs but the wheel
offcenter (would drive me nuts) isn't going to hurt the tires but isn't
optimal. An average shop gets 6-8 tenths for an alignment check and anywhere
from 1.0-2.0 hours to "do" an alignment. So the techs DO look to do anything
to upgrade the check to an alignment.
Firestone has an "lifetime" alignment and like an extended warranty used
properly is a great tool; but be a contentious shopper when getting one
performed.

Signature

Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

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y_p_w - 09 Nov 2006 18:14 GMT

> As someone who would get paid on alignments you look at the numbers to see
> if it is a sell. IE a car with the total toe within specs but the wheel
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> properly is a great tool; but be a contentious shopper when getting one
> performed.

Yeah - I got that. My last alignment check showed a few things that
couldn't be adjusted. Big whoop. However - total toe was -0.19?
and they didn't adjust that. Another shop looked at the result and
said it might be within specs, but somewhere near dead center
would be optimal. I'm thinking of bringing it back and insisting on
since I had some funky wear on my last set of tires. Maybe how
busy they are influences their willingness.

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maxwedge - 10 Nov 2006 01:30 GMT

y_p_w Wrote:

> > As someone who would get paid on alignments you look at the numbers
> to see
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> since I had some funky wear on my last set of tires. Maybe how
> busy they are influences their willingness.

Ask for the final printout, this will show you where your alignment
specs are compared to the allowable tolerances and 0 settings.

Signature

maxwedge

http://www.automotiveforums.com

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y_p_w - 10 Nov 2006 07:36 GMT

> y_p_w Wrote:
>>Yeah - I got that. My last alignment check showed a few things that
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Ask for the final printout, this will show you where your alignment
> specs are compared to the allowable tolerances and 0 settings.

I got that. I was referring to the values from the printout.
Total toe was -0.19° when the factory tolerances were from
-0.25° to 0.25°. I brought the printout to another tire shop
that installed my new tires. The owner said that total toe
can be a problem even if it's "within tolerances".

Like I was saying - maybe I take it to Firestone on a less
than busy day. This shop is open on Sundays and I could just
watch football in their waiting area. :-)

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Stephen H - 11 Nov 2006 06:03 GMT

> I got that. I was referring to the values from the printout.
> Total toe was -0.19° when the factory tolerances were from
> -0.25° to 0.25°. I brought the printout to another tire shop
> that installed my new tires. The owner said that total toe
> can be a problem even if it's "within tolerances".

As an alighhner -19 is on the edge of being good. I perfere to get it close
to optimal specs. I like to give a customer the best I can, even if it costs
them. To tell a customer "well you car was almost out of specs but it's good
enough for you" could insult them. I perfer to tell them "it was a little
out but dead on now"
Remember, the Firestone Lifetime alighnment is a good tool; but its priamry
goal is to keep you coming into the shop: more chances to sell something
like a transmission flush, tires or preventavite maintenance. If they tell
you something is bad IE tie rod end, have them show you/ Be an educated
consumer.

Signature

> Like I was saying - maybe I take it to Firestone on a less
> than busy day. This shop is open on Sundays and I could just
> watch football in their waiting area. :-)

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Steve - 09 Nov 2006 00:49 GMT

>>First, if alignment is needed you sure as hell CAN tell, and you CAN
>>tell when its done right. A good alignment can change the driving
>>character of a car from night to day.
>
> We disagree.

And I'm left to wonder why.

>>Second, a little bit of study renders the numbers no longer "esoteric."
>>Its engineering, not art. There are no opinions, no gray areas,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> why it needed to be aligned if all the parameters were within
> tolerance, the answer is, "Yes, but they weren't optimal."

That would probably explain why you "can't tell" that an alignment did
any good. You didn't NEED one to start with.

>>Thirdly, it DOES last. It takes a lot more than a pothole or curb to
>>knock the alignment out on a well-made car.
>
> Again, my alignment guy disagrees with you, and he's been in the area
> for 30+ years and has a sterling reputation.

Then he's just wrong. See above- if you really need an alignment, you
CAN tell.

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John S. - 09 Nov 2006 17:15 GMT

I'm getting real confused here. You start off by ranting and raving
about wheel alignment practices of some recent service then leap to the
defense of the same guy you have apparently been patronizing for years.

> >First, if alignment is needed you sure as hell CAN tell, and you CAN
> >tell when its done right. A good alignment can change the driving
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> -- jim

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hls - 08 Nov 2006 06:18 GMT

> <rant on>
> I hate wheel alignment.

I can understand your frustration. You buy a new set of tires, get the
vehicle aligned, and then dont get the results
you hoped, and payed, for.

Not every establishment that has an alignment bay has people qualified to
use it.
Tires can be problematic, even when new and right off the rack.

If you cant get satisfaction from the people who sold you the tires and the
alignment, go somewhere else
(hopefully finding an establishment good at what they do).

My daughter once took her car to Sears in Houston, who charged her a service
fee and then told her that
her car couldnt be aligned. They said it would have to go to a frame shop
to be bent back into alignment.

I took it to a quality frame shop, which aligned it quickly and properly
WITHOUT any bending. The second
shop said the first just didnt know what they were doing.

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