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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2006Engine identification 64 Ford
I have a 1964 T-Bird that suppose to have a 390 engine. I have found a raised casting number on the right front of the block #16 with 352 underneath. Any idea if this is trully a 390 or perhaps been changed with a 352 engine? Dan in TN I think the FE family of engines all have "352" in that location without regard to the actual displacement. See for instance http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/15999/ http://phystutor.tripod.com/stang/engines/fe.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine I think that by '61 the actual 352 engine was gone from the Thunderbird, supplanted by the 390 (and, beginning in '66, an optional 428): http://www.tbird.org/DataPlate/vdata.htm The 352 stayed around as a Galaxie base engine and also in pickup trucks, so it is not implausible that someone retrofitted one after blowing up the original 390. Seems a bit unlikely because the 390 was so widely available, but it's possible. People who know a lot more than me say there's no definitive way to tell which you've got from the outside of an assembled one. Cheers, --Joe >I think the FE family of engines all have "352" in that location > without regard to the actual displacement. See for instance [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Cheers, > --Joe I haven't seen the original post, but if this helps, I had a 63 galaxy with a 352 in it.... and one of my workers also had a 63 galaxy with a 390 in it. MIne was a 4 door, not sure about hers... it may have been a 2 door... There were 2 versions of the 352... one was a windsor, and the other was a cleveland... not sure what that meant, but maybe it had something to do with where it was made. Fwed > There were 2 versions of the 352... one was a windsor, and the other was > a cleveland... not sure what that meant, but maybe it had something to do > with where it was made. The Windsor and the Cleveland were quite different, IIRC. The Windsor was a 60 degree V and the Cleveland was a 90 degree, among others...again, IIRC (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong). I had a 76 Econoline with a 351W in it...a co-worker had an F-150 with a 351C, also a 76. The Cleveland was (is?) much more desirable for high performance applications. >> There were 2 versions of the 352... one was a windsor, and the >> other was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a 351C, also a 76. The Cleveland was (is?) much more desirable for > high performance applications. WOW I don`t know where to start on this misinformation. the 352 FE and the 3 351s were completely different. the 352 is the older of them all being produced untill 1966 if I remember correctly, the 351W is a small block thin wall casting similar to the 302 family but with a 1 inch taller deck. the 351C was only made from 69 to 74,(and never put in a pkup from the factory) and the 351M was basicly a destroked 400, same parts other than crank and pistons. all are a 90 degree v config. as are most V8s american made. the 60 degree V is a v6 item to provide for even fireing cyl. KB  SignatureThunder Snake #9 "Protect" your rights or "lose" them. > WOW I don`t know where to start on this misinformation. ... I knew someone would correct me... :-) Of course you're right...now that I think about it, the pickup had a 351M in it. The 351C was in another co-worker's 69 Mustang. My apologies for the 'misinformation'... >>> There were 2 versions of the 352... one was a windsor, and the >>> other was [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >most V8s american made. the 60 degree V is a v6 item to provide for even >fireing cyl. KB And not only that but, IIRC and this is not a brain fart, the 352, 351W, 351C & 351M all had the same bore/stroke making things even more confusing. This would mean all four were either 351 or 352 cid. I guess, since the 352 FE(Ford/Edsel) already existed, there had to be a distinction with the 351W. The 351C and M are both in the 335 series family. The 351C designation was from the Cleveland plant where it was built. I would guess the M designation came from either the fact that it was a modified 400 (Ford only built one of these with no letters) or the fact that the 400 and 351M were built at the Michigan foundary. In any case, the 352 was an FE engine. The 351W is a Winsor family member along with the 221, 260, 289 and 302/5.0L, and the 351C & M are 335 series family. Parts interchangeability among families is not much and there are several configs of each within families. They are all 90 deg V8's. If I'm wrong, I am sure someone will correct me. I don't have all the specs at hand at the moment. Lugnut > And not only that but, IIRC and this is not a brain fart, > the 352, 351W, 351C & 351M all had the same bore/stroke > making things even more confusing. This would mean all four > were either 351 or 352 cid. I guess, since the 352 > FE(Ford/Edsel) already existed, there had to be a > distinction with the 351W. Right. The 351W was actually 352 cid, but called 351 to avoid confusion with the earlier V8 >>And not only that but, IIRC and this is not a brain fart, >>the 352, 351W, 351C & 351M all had the same bore/stroke [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Right. The 351W was actually 352 cid, but called 351 to avoid confusion > with the earlier V8 Kinda the way Ford always called the 302 a "5.0 Liter" even though its closer to 4.9, but the "4.9" was the 300 CID straight six of the time. At least the Mopar 360 (smallblock) and 361 (big block) actually did have very different bores and strokes. The wierdness with *them* was that the big-block 361 was the short-stroke/ big-bore high revver (though no higher winding than a 383 and therefore less desirable), and the smallblock 360 was a long-stroke stump puller. And to further complicate matters, the 351C was manufactured into the 80:s in Australia, and there was even a 302C manufacured there, which was a destroked 351C. Same block as the 351C, different crank, rods and heads. The heads are closed chamber 2V heads, which are somewhat desirable for 351C:s. So there has even been a 335 series 302. > And to further complicate matters, the 351C was manufactured into the > 80:s in Australia, I'll file that one away in the "cool trivia" file. Kinda like the fact that the Chrysler 413 and 361 were both manufactured until 1975 for heavy truck, bus, and industrial applicaitons, 10 years after their last use in cars. >> There were 2 versions of the 352... one was a windsor, and the other was > > a cleveland... Uh-uh. You're thinking of the three three-fifty-ONEs from the respective sides of Lake Erie. The Windsor was a small block with a lot of family resemblance to the 302. A different block, often described as "intermediate" and soon punched out to 400 and then punched back in to create a different 351, came from the American side, both in the 70s. We're talking about the three-fifty-TWO, which, despite its similar displacement, was from an older and quite different engine series, their big block of the 60s (with some enduring applications, mostly in trucks, overlapping deep into the era when their mainstream big block was the 429/460 type and the two different families of 351's were also in their glory days, making the confusion, if not the nomenclature, very understandable). Cheers, --Joe >> There were 2 versions of the 352... one was a windsor, and the >> other was a cleveland... not sure what that meant, but maybe it had >> something to do with where it was made. > > The Windsor and the Cleveland were quite different, IIRC. Correct. The Windsor > was a 60 degree V and the Cleveland was a 90 degree, among > others...again, IIRC (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong). Well, you're wrong :-p The only 60-degree Ford v8s I can think of are an absolutely HUGE overhead-cam military tank engine from the 40s/50s (derived from a planned WWII aircraft V12 that never actually flew), and the Ford/Yamaha Taurus SHO v8 that was derived from the earlier SHO v6. The 351 Windsor is a typical Ford 90-degree small-block engine, a raised deck version of the 289 and 302. The 351C and later 351M are, while not exactly a big-block in the sense of an FE engine or a 370/429/460, a biggER block than the Windsor. The Ford 400 is basically a 351M with a longer stroke. \ > There were 2 versions of the 352... one was a windsor, and the other was > a cleveland... not sure what that meant, but maybe it had something to do > with where it was made. I'll admit that "Ford" is my second language, but I'm pretty certain you're confusing the 351 (smallblock) with the 352 (FE Big-block) there. The 351 came in Windsor and Cleveland versions in the late 60s and 70s (they were really two almost completely different engines that just happened to be the same displacement- the Windsor being related to the 289/302 smallblocks). But the FE family (352, 360, 390, 427, 428) didn't have two different flavors. > \ >> There were 2 versions of the 352... one was a windsor, and the other [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 289/302 smallblocks). But the FE family (352, 360, 390, 427, 428) didn't > have two different flavors. Its possible as its been about 30 years since I owned the car....and my memory isn't what it used to be.....I modified the engine with an Edelbrock high rise aluminum manifold and a holley 650 cfm carburetor. What a difference that made. I was also going to put in a (and I forget the ratio) 3.92 maybe posi traction rear end, but the thing was fast enough as it was without it. Fwed > I have a 1964 T-Bird that suppose to have a 390 engine. I have found a > raised casting number on the right front of the block #16 with 352 > underneath. Any idea if this is trully a 390 or perhaps been changed > with a 352 engine? > Dan in TN gord wrote You have the right engine for the 64 bird/ The 352 had a block modified racing block. Better than 390 block / Look at where it says 352 on block/ LOOK just left on top of the water pump joins the block /their should be about the width of your thumb.Should be a flat strip of the block an inch high if not ? Your engine is not modified yet is still a good 352. So check for that ridge by the back of water pump/ Your block hasn't been changed just a fast 64 Birds ,there was only so many made from the factory I.D. foctory numbers on the starter side of block Have fun & good luck bird's do fly lol > I have a 1964 T-Bird that suppose to have a 390 engine. I have found a > raised casting number on the right front of the block #16 with 352 > underneath. Any idea if this is trully a 390 or perhaps been changed > with a 352 engine? > Dan in TN The 352 and the 390 are the same block. I have a 352 in my 63 f-100 short box and i have a spare 390 that i took the 4 bbl intake off of for my 352. The VIN number of the T-Bird should tell you which engine is supposed to be in the car. It was common for Ford FE engines to have "352" cast into the block. It doesn't mean it is a 352. See http://tinyurl.com/ya8u5z. What color is the engine painted? Back then the different size engines were painted different colors. A 1964 390 should have a black block with gold valve covers. Here is a list of Ford engine colors I borrowed off the internet: YEAR/CID/ ENGINE BLOCK AND CYLINDER HEADS COLOR/AIR CLEANER COLOR/VALVE COVERS COLOR 1959 223 Black Red Red 1959 292 Black Red Red 1959 332 Black Green Green 1959 352 Black Blue * Blue 1960 223 Black Red Red 1960 292 Black Red Red 1960 352 Black Blue Blue 1960 352 HP Black Gold open-element Gold 1961 223 Black Red Red 1961 292 Black Red Red 1961 352 Black Blue Blue 1961 390 Black Silver Silver 1961 390 HP Black Gold Gold 1961 390 HP-6V Black Oval aluminum Gold 1962 221 Black Yellow Yellow (not positive on this one) 1962 223 Black Red Red 1963 260 Black Light Blue Light Blue 1962 292 Black Red Red 1962 352 Black Blue Blue 1962 390 Black Silver Silver 1962 406-4V Black Gold open-element Gold 1962 406-6V Black Oval aluminum Gold 1962 221 Black Yellow Yellow (not positive on this one) 1963 223 Black Red Red 1963 289 Black White White 1963 352 Black Blue Blue 1963 390 Black Silver Silver 1963 406-4V Black Gold open-element Gold 1963 406-6V Black Oval aluminum Gold 1963 427-4V Black Chrome open-element Chrome "baldies" 1963 427-8V Black Oval aluminum Chrome "baldies" 1964 223 Black Red Red 1964 260 Black Light Blue Light Blue 1964 289 Black Red Red 1964 289-4V (not HP) Black Gold Gold 1964 289 HP Black Chrome open element Chrome 1964 352 Black Blue Blue 1964 390 Black Gold Gold 1964 427-4V Black Chrome open-element Chrome "baldies" 1964 427-8V Black Oval aluminum Chrome "baldies" 1965 240 Black Red Red 1965 289 Black White White 1965 289-4V (not HP) Black Gold Gold 1965 289 HP Black Chrome open element Chrome 1965 352 Black Gold Gold 1965 390 Black Gold Gold 1965 427-8V Black Oval aluminum Chrome "pentroof" 1965 427 SOHC-4V Black Chrome open-element Cast aluminum 1965 427 SOHC-8V Black Oval aluminum Cast aluminum 1966 240 Blue** Blue Blue 1966 289 Blue Blue Blue 1966 352 Blue Blue Blue 1966 390 Blue Blue Blue 1966 427-4V Blue Chrome open-element Chrome "pentroof" 1966 427-8V Blue Oval aluminum Chrome "pentroof" 1966 427 SOHC-4V Blue Chrome open-element Cast aluminum 1966 427 SOHC-8V Blue Oval aluminum Cast aluminum 1966 428 Blue Blue Blue 1967 240 Blue Blue Blue "PBF"*** 1967 289 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1967 390 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1967 427-4V Blue Blue Tall Chrome "PBF" 1967 427-8V Blue Blue Tall Chrome "PBF" 1967 427 SOHC-4V Blue Chrome open-element Cast aluminum 1967 427 SOHC-8V Blue Oval aluminum Cast aluminum 1967 428 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1968 240 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1968 302 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1968 390 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1968 427 Blue Blue w/chrome lid Tall Chrome "PBF" 1968 428 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1969 240 Blue**** Blue Blue "PBF" 1969 302 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1969 351 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1969 390 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1969 429 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1970 250 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1970 302 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1970 351 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1970 390 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1970 429 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1971 302 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1971 351 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1971 390 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1971 400 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" 1971 429 Blue Blue Blue "PBF" * The blue used on these engines is very similar to the lighter blue used on the late-'60s Ford engines. ** The blue used on 1966-1968 Ford engines is a darker blue than used on earlier Ford 352 valve covers. The correct color is TRW #630224 or Eastwood's "dark Ford blue." ***"PBF" indicates "Power by Ford" **** 1969-1974 Ford engines were a lighter blue than 1966-1968. The color is similar to the early 352 valve covers. SignatureRegards, Ed White http://home.mindspring.com/~ed_white/ - my automotive opinions http://home.mindspring.com/~ed_white/id7.html - my oil filter comparison >I have a 1964 T-Bird that suppose to have a 390 engine. I have found a > raised casting number on the right front of the block #16 with 352 > underneath. Any idea if this is trully a 390 or perhaps been changed > with a 352 engine? > Dan in TN |
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