Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2006
Need help interperting OBD II information
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usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 01:00 GMT Hello Everyone,
First, thank you for trying to help me. I have a 1997 Buick Riviera with a GM 3800 II supercharged engine. Two dealers and my local mechanic can not figure out what the problem is. The problem is as follows:
1. The car will attempt to stall out (and sometimes does) at red lights. Sometimes it will restart, others it will just crank. If I let the car sit there it will eventually start.
2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200 degrees.
3. If I am driving, the car will just turn off. Sometimes it will restart on its own. Sometimes I have to pull over, wait a few seconds and then it will start. Sometimes when I pull over, the RPM gauge is at 0 and the engine is very faintly firing.
I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor and say it is OK.
I purchased OBD II software and recorded a few pages. If you could take a look at it I would appreciate it.
The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500 RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the freeze frame.
http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.doc
OR
http://www.wildlifereserve.org/riviera_112006.pdf
The doc is 700K the PDF is 1MB. Sorry they are so big. Thanks for checking it out.
Any questions, or ideas please post.
Thanks,
Sam
Scott Dorsey - 21 Nov 2006 01:22 GMT >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it >will only crank. I do hear the fuel pump prime. If I let it cool down >to under 160 it starts. Recently the car has not restarted at 200 >degrees. When the car doesn't start, is there fuel pressure? Yes, I know you hear the pump prime, but if you check the pressure at the rail, is it good?
>I have replaced the ignition module and the coil packs. I have replaced >the plugs and plug wires. The car throws a Crankshaft Position Sensor >but the dealers and mechanic checked the crank shaft position sensor >and say it is OK. How did they check it? It could be intermittent. Clearly whatever is bad is intermittent, and the position sensor is the first thing I'd have swapped.
The OTHER reason you could get that error code is if you have some other position sensor (sometimes an RPM sensor, etc.) which is disgreeing with the crankshaft sensor.
>The first was sitting at idle at operating temp. The second is at 2500 >RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the >freeze frame. I have no graphics here, but given the basic behaviour, I'd have swapped the position sensor out. If it turns out not to be the problem, well, now you have a spare in the garage. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 01:59 GMT The job is about $380. The part is cheap but the labor is crazy. That's a little too much to swap without knowing for sure. =(
> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car > >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > now you have a spare in the garage. > --scott Lawrence Glickman - 21 Nov 2006 02:07 GMT >The job is about $380. The part is cheap but the labor is crazy. That's >a little too much to swap without knowing for sure. =( On my Vulcan V6, the CPS is a bastard to get to. But it is =possible=, so I would buy the part and do it myself. YMMV.
No way I'm paying that kind of $$$ for a CPS swap. Not in this lifetime.
Yes it would be a PITA. Yes I could do it. Might take an hour, going in through the top of the engine bay. Might take less time if I could get at it from under the vehicle. Either way, I would buy the part and try some acrobatics to see how I could get to the sensor, which on my engine, is just held in place with one lousy screw. Getting to that screw is another story.
Lg
>> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car >> >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> now you have a spare in the garage. >> --scott usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 02:39 GMT I feel your pain. The CPS is behind the harmonic balancer. You have to take that off to get to it.
> >The job is about $380. The part is cheap but the labor is crazy. That's > >a little too much to swap without knowing for sure. =( [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >> now you have a spare in the garage. > >> --scott Lawrence Glickman - 21 Nov 2006 02:43 GMT >I feel your pain. The CPS is behind the harmonic balancer. You have to >take that off to get to it. My idea is to leave the HB where it is, and come at the CPS from an angle that will allow removal and reinstallation. I have all kinds of *ideas,* many of which make no sense at all ;-|
I would swap it myself anyhow, even if I had to lie down on top of the engine, or crawl under the car. No way I have access to $380.
Lg
Scott Dorsey - 21 Nov 2006 15:03 GMT >The job is about $380. The part is cheap but the labor is crazy. That's >a little too much to swap without knowing for sure. =( I don't know where it is on that car, so I can't say if you should try it yourself or not.
But, I'd still check the fuel pressure. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 02:03 GMT Not sure how they checked on the crankshaft sensor. I have not checked fuel pressure, usually it happens at the grocery store or the side of the road and I can't do any testing. =(
> >2. If I drive the car to operating temperature and then allow the car > >to sit there until the temp is around 160 the car will not restart, it [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > now you have a spare in the garage. > --scott Lawrence Glickman - 21 Nov 2006 01:40 GMT >Hello Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >Sam B1S2 fuel trim reads 99%
that is way out of bounds for a normal engine.
usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 02:02 GMT I dont know much about O2 sensors. Are there actually two physical sensors? B1S1 & B1S2?
Thanks,
Sam
> >Hello Everyone, > > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > that is way out of bounds for a normal engine. Lawrence Glickman - 21 Nov 2006 02:39 GMT >I dont know much about O2 sensors. Are there actually two physical >sensors? B1S1 & B1S2? > >Thanks, > >Sam On my vehicle Sam, there are 2 sensors for each bank of the engine. Bank One, the bank (row) of cylinders with cylinder 1 as defined by the firing order, has B1S1 on the exhaust manifold, and then B1S2 just after the catalytic converter for THAT bank.
IOW, I have 4 O2 sensors, and TWO cat cons. 2 sensors and 1 cat con for each bank (row of cylinders).
Not too hard to get to, but when I think of swapping them out, you know, it is all becoming a PITA to my old body.
Lg
>> >Hello Everyone, >> > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> >> that is way out of bounds for a normal engine. aarcuda69062 - 21 Nov 2006 02:59 GMT > >Hello Everyone, > > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > that is way out of bounds for a normal engine. In 1997, GM didn't use the post cat oxygen sensor to calculate fuel trim. IOWs, it's a bogus reading.
The OP may want to purchase the enhanced software from Auto Enginuity and use it to graph the two crankshaft position sensor signals at the time of stall. (if the enhanced does in fact report the two crank position sensors as a PID) The OP may also want to verify the P0336 trouble code with a different scan tool/code reader because there have been instances of AE reporting trouble codes incorrectly. The OP should verify that there is no coolant leaking from the water pump onto the crankshaft position sensor(s).
Lawrence Glickman - 21 Nov 2006 03:22 GMT snips:
>> B1S2 fuel trim reads 99% >> >> that is way out of bounds for a normal engine. > >In 1997, GM didn't use the post cat oxygen sensor to calculate >fuel trim. IOWs, it's a bogus reading. Ok
>The OP may want to purchase the enhanced software from Auto >Enginuity and use it to graph the two crankshaft position sensor [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >different scan tool/code reader because there have been instances >of AE reporting trouble codes incorrectly. money spent, and no guarantee that the *new* software is going to have a bullet proof CPS algorithm.
>The OP should verify that there is no coolant leaking from the >water pump onto the crankshaft position sensor(s). This is true. On my car, it would have to be a major leak. Anything short of that is going to flow away from my CPS. But the geometry of his engine is no doubt different.
I think on my car, I would buy the part ( after making certain the water pump isn't leaking onto it ), and install it myself, thereby saving labor costs. If I could not, for some reason, pull off the part swap, that's another story. But I would _have_ to give it a try first. That's just *me.*
Lg
aarcuda69062 - 21 Nov 2006 05:09 GMT > money spent, and no guarantee that the *new* software is going to have > a bullet proof CPS algorithm. No, he can call them and ask whether the crank sensor is a supported PID. If not, then he doesn't spend the money. Generic OBD2 scan data is a lot like eating a T-bone steak with chop sticks, it can be done, but it will take a long time and there will be a lot of teeth gnashing. IOWs, he doesn't know all of what he's missing not having the enhanced software.
> >The OP should verify that there is no coolant leaking from the > >water pump onto the crankshaft position sensor(s). > > This is true. On my car, it would have to be a major leak. Anything > short of that is going to flow away from my CPS. But the geometry of > his engine is no doubt different. Coolant leak from the water pump wiping out a crank sensor is fairly common on the Buick 3800.
> I think on my car, I would buy the part ( after making certain the > water pump isn't leaking onto it ), and install it myself, thereby > saving labor costs. If I could not, for some reason, pull off the > part swap, that's another story. But I would _have_ to give it a try > first. That's just *me.* The OP needs to be advised, the crank sensor splits two sets of shutters on the harmonic balancer, the sensor needs to be set so that the shutters do not rub, hit or in any way make physical contact with the sensor. One can buy the special tool from Kent- Moore, or he can cut two strips of plastic bottle and use them as a feeler gauge.
Comboverfish - 21 Nov 2006 03:25 GMT > The OP should verify that there is no coolant leaking from the > water pump onto the crankshaft position sensor(s). Good point! That's a sign that you do this kind of work every day : )
Toyota MDT in MO
P.S. I have no doubt his OBDII AE software is reporting the P0336 correctly given the circumstances. I think the problem is more prominent with the enhanced software screwing up FR and other GM specific historical code data. I'm really leaning towards getting AE based on the price. It's a hell of a hobby scanner if nothing else.
aarcuda69062 - 21 Nov 2006 04:57 GMT In article <1164079524.795323.190020@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > The OP should verify that there is no coolant leaking from the > > water pump onto the crankshaft position sensor(s). > > Good point! That's a sign that you do this kind of work every day : ) naaah... some days, I do front end rebuilds... ;-)
> Toyota MDT in MO > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > specific historical code data. I'm really leaning towards getting AE > based on the price. It's a hell of a hobby scanner if nothing else. I'm pretty happy with it.
Very strong on Ford, very strong on GM, as strong as I've seen on Toyota, a little weak on Chrysler but they (Jay) say it's in the works.
Comboverfish - 21 Nov 2006 05:19 GMT > In article > <1164079524.795323.190020@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Toyota, a little weak on Chrysler but they (Jay) say it's in the > works. So, did you throw off the "golden handcuffs" of the Snap On VCI yet? (""=your words)
I'm debating on a trade in Solus deal, but not until they impliment better Toyota functionality. I mean like having sensor data for a certain year range but not having it for the same powertrain system in a different year range; lacking simple data, not being able to customize a data list during active testing, etc. My MTG2500 graphing doesn't even work on the manufacturer side, and the Generic OBD graphing resolution doesn't impress in the least. I wonder how much has to do with the limited storage capacity of the VCI verses the CF card + onboard storage of the Solus? Sometimes I think a Genisys would be better, but then I slap myself.
Have you used the Mastertech for Toyota as a comparison to AE?
Toyota MDT in MO
aarcuda69062 - 21 Nov 2006 07:17 GMT In article <1164086361.117582.281160@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > Very strong on Ford, very strong on GM, as strong as I've seen on > > Toyota, a little weak on Chrysler but they (Jay) say it's in the > > works. > > So, did you throw off the "golden handcuffs" of the Snap On VCI yet? > (""=your words) heh-heh-heh... In the span of a week and a half, that's two people who've brought that up. The other was John Thornton.
> I'm debating on a trade in Solus deal, but not until they impliment > better Toyota functionality. Another shop owner in town here had a Solus for a loaner for 3 months while his Modis was in for repair. He hated that thing so bad I loaned him my other brick to use.
> I mean like having sensor data for a > certain year range but not having it for the same powertrain system in > a different year range; Yup.
> lacking simple data, Been there.
> not being able to > customize a data list during active testing, etc. Done that.
> My MTG2500 graphing > doesn't even work on the manufacturer side, Just like how my Scan Grafix doesn't always work on some OBD2 stuff.
> and the Generic OBD > graphing resolution doesn't impress in the least. May have more to do with generic data rates than it does the tool.
> I wonder how much > has to do with the limited storage capacity of the VCI verses the CF > card + onboard storage of the Solus? And when the Solus is maxed out in a couple of years, then what?
> Sometimes I think a Genisys would > be better, but then I slap myself. I was close to buying a Genisys a couple of years ago, then I started reading all the horror stories and rethought that idea.
> Have you used the Mastertech for Toyota as a comparison to AE? Haven't touched a Mastertech in ten years, we had one in the Wis. IM-240 program for diagnosing ping-pong cars, that and a CAS SuperGuide <spit>. The Mastertech was great, the SuperGuide was so bad, I brought my Counsellor 2 in from home.
If you wind up getting the AE, I'd be interested in hearing how it compares to the Mastertech w/Toyota software.
TeGGeR® - 21 Nov 2006 11:59 GMT aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:nonelson- 9DFA57.01174221112006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com:
> Haven't touched a Mastertech in ten years, we had one in the Wis. > IM-240 program for diagnosing ping-pong cars, "Ping-pong cars"?
 Signature TeGGeR
aarcuda69062 - 21 Nov 2006 14:39 GMT > aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:nonelson- > 9DFA57.01174221112006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "Ping-pong cars"? Cars that were being ping-ponged back and forth between the repair shop and the test station.
After the second failure, the customer could bring the car into one of two diagnostic facilities in Milwaukee and have free diagnostics performed to assist in getting the car to pass.
We also did technician outreach, answered a diagnostic hotline and did damage investigations.
Pulling rabbits out of a hat 80 hours a week... ;-)
TeGGeR® - 23 Nov 2006 00:08 GMT aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:nonelson- B9C6F4.08393321112006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com:
>> "Ping-pong cars"? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > one of two diagnostic facilities in Milwaukee and have free > diagnostics performed to assist in getting the car to pass. Now that's a nice touch. In Ontario Canada they saddle you with the test, then leave you high and dry if it fails.
> We also did technician outreach, answered a diagnostic hotline > and did damage investigations. > > Pulling rabbits out of a hat 80 hours a week... ;-) Busy fellers, I'll bet.
 Signature Tegger
TeGGeR® - 23 Nov 2006 00:50 GMT "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in news:Xns9883C2A97AD97tegger@ 207.14.116.130:
> aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:nonelson- > B9C6F4.08393321112006@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com:
>> After the second failure, the customer could bring the car into >> one of two diagnostic facilities in Milwaukee and have free >> diagnostics performed to assist in getting the car to pass. > > Now that's a nice touch. In Ontario Canada they saddle you with the > test, then leave you high and dry if it fails. Hmm... I think this is called "mixed metaphors".
Apologies to any literally sensitive readers...
 Signature Tegger
usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 12:20 GMT Thanks Lawrence, I have tried two scanners.
> In article <l5m4m2d26ovkccbnj5q2q5b376egan6...@4ax.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > The OP should verify that there is no coolant leaking from the > water pump onto the crankshaft position sensor(s).- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Lawrence Glickman - 21 Nov 2006 18:08 GMT >Thanks Lawrence, I have tried two scanners. > >> In article <l5m4m2d26ovkccbnj5q2q5b376egan6...@4ax.com>, Sokay. aarcuda is the boss. He has the knowledge and experience...period. End of story. Anyone who challenges one of his diagnoses is an a.s.
That said, I went out just because of _your_ problem, and checked my own sensors. They look fine afaik. 2 different scanners also. Davis Drive Right and Actron 9145 each read B1S1 B1S2 B2S1 B2S2
Then I compared them over a number of trips, and all looks OK to me. The point is, I would rather have a computer tell me what is wrong, than fudge around with a hand held voltmeter under the hood with the engine running...trying to backprobe these things, especially considering where they are located is hot Hot HOT.
I also monitor my STFT's and LTFT's, and see nothing out of the ordinary on my -own- vehicle. Well, it runs fine but I only have a little over 25,000 miles on it, so this is what one would expect.
Fortunately? my engine has been around so long, in the chassis of most Tauri (plural of Taurus?) that it is pretty well known where its strength and weaknesses are. It's pretty well documented on the web.
It is my first and only computer-controlled vehicle, so I have no reference points for anything else, except carbureted junkers that never cost me more than $200 cash up front ( repairing them cost more ).
Those *beaters* as I call them lasted me many years, but they nickled and dimed me to death in parts and time to repair. Living without a car here is out of the question. It is a necessity...not a convenience. Thusly my newfound interest in the Topic, and my presence on the n/g, sucking up information.
Because I have scanners, I can theoretically save myself grief. The idea is to Pass Inspection. If I don't, I can't re-register my car until I can. I'm given X number of days to repair, and return for reinspection. If I am going to drive on invalid plates, I'm asking for jail and a stiff fine.
Lg
Don - 21 Nov 2006 03:06 GMT >>Hello Everyone, >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >B1S2 fuel trim reads 99% Whenever you see that the data is not valid due to scan tool function or other cause.
Don www.donsautomotive.com
>that is way out of bounds for a normal engine. Lawrence Glickman - 21 Nov 2006 03:24 GMT >>B1S2 fuel trim reads 99% > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >>that is way out of bounds for a normal engine. Okay, well it caught my eye. I didn't think it looked right, so that's why I even mentioned it.
Lg
usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 12:29 GMT When I hit the gas the values change. Not much but they change. I'll take your word for it though.
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:40:07 -0600, Lawrence Glickman > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > >that is way out of bounds for a normal engine.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 01:58 GMT Correction to #2, the temp is 170, not 160.
Thanks,
Sam
> Hello Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Sam Comboverfish - 21 Nov 2006 03:13 GMT > Hello Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > RPM. The last shot was the code that was thrown at a stall and the > freeze frame. OK, the first thing I thought before getting halfway through your post was intermittant crank position sensor (CKP) failure.
You have spent a fair amount of $ already on parts that haven't fixed the problem. The CKP is the most likely component to cause this on your engine, followed by the ICM (replaced), followed by compromised wiring or shielding of the CKP circuit, and finally the PCM. For the cost of a CKP sensor I would not hesitate with replacing it. I think they are around $30 to $60.
I can't physically inspect your car to look at the wiring or test the circuits to verify this diagnosis but I speak from experience. It's too bad you had several mechanics supposedly test (good) your sensor and then condemn a $300+ ICM! + 3 coils!
It is difficult and time consuming to test an intermittant stall like this, but with the code P0335 you know right where to start. I would hook a 2channel scope up to the ICM connector as follows: channel 1 to the yellow CKP to ICM 18X reference wire; channel 2 to the blue/black ICM to PCM CKP 18X reference wire. You should see square waves on both wires. They should be sharp and defined. Nonsensical stray voltages would be a sign of poor shielding. The wrong number or inconsistently shaped waves would be a sign of CKP sensor breakdown on the yellow wire; ICM failure on the blue/black wire. If both signals are perfect when the vehicle dies and sets a P0336 concurrently you should suspect the PCM.
The sensor sits beside/behind the crankshaft pulley on the front of the engine. Other than loosening and tightening the crank pulley bolt, it's a fairly easy replacement. It would take a tech about 15 minutes of mechanical work to do.
NOTE: You are supposed to do a "CKP sensor variation learn" procedure following replacement. This is a simple scantool operation that requires a Tech II (GM mega$$ scanner), or a SnapOn with newer software. If I were you I just would replace the sensor, clear the codes, then drive it and monitor the MIL. If you never get a P1336 (variation relearn procedure not performed) then the new sensor is lined up close enough to be a nonfactor.
If you want to explore this relearn dealio, I would suggest you contact Jay Horak of Auto Enginuity. He designed your scan software and constantly responds to tech questions via email. Ask him if the GM software addon (about $150) has the capability to perform the CPK sensor variation learn function on a 1997 Riviera 3.8SC. He's very good about product support. I guarantee that you will be happy with the functions and data you will be able to retrieve with his GM software. His enhanced software packages can be glitchy but the reports from the field are that they get markably better and more powerful with each upgrade. One year of quarterly upgrades comes with the enhanced software package. An additional year of updates is $50 last time I checked. I figured since you already purchased the $250+ OBDII package it would be a no-brainer to buy the 'good stuff' : )
Toyota MDT in MO
Comboverfish - 21 Nov 2006 03:17 GMT When I wrote: It is difficult and time consuming to test an intermittant stall like this, but with the code P0335 you know right where to start.
I meant P0336 D'oh!
Toyota MDT in MO
usshopkins@yahoo.com - 21 Nov 2006 14:45 GMT Whats odd is that when the car doesnt start when it's cold down a bit it consistantly does it at 170 degrees.
> Hello Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Sam Shep - 21 Nov 2006 20:43 GMT If you have no spark, or injector pulse/rpm readings on the scanner when this occurs, as all have mentioned this very likely a cps, the time and cost of the equipment to defintively track this down for most, is prohibitive.
> Whats odd is that when the car doesnt start when it's cold down a bit > it consistantly does it at 170 degrees. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >> >> Sam boybehindthewire@gmail.com - 24 Nov 2006 18:52 GMT Regardless of anything else, who else thinks that IAT temp looks high for closed throttle idle?..When I see that I start thinking the EGR is hung open.
The crank pickup is one of those 'fast start' systems that GM used?.. 6x and 18x triggers?.. If I'm remembering correctly, I remember reading that failure of part of that system would cause a no-start, but wouldn't cause a stall.. but, admittedly, this is stuff from *years* ago for me.
I don't know what to think about techs anymore (and this is from someone who was one for >10 years).. talked to one tech that couldn't troubleshoot a basic Ford DPFE system, and when he asked me about a high idle problem on an 88 5.0 FI and told me everything he's done so far, and I asked what the KOEO and KOER tests showed, responded that he hadn't done those tests.
But, I've also seen someone else crimp a brake hose with a pair of vise grips and break the hose.. dealer part; will be in Monday.
There are some good techs out there.. and, like with so many other occupations, there are some real losers out there.
Jim
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