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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 200692 Grand Prix has NO SPARK,.. send help
Hi, it's a '92 Pontiac Grand Prix LE 3.1 V6, auto, air, 4dor in an elegant off white. The snificuntuther drives it home fine last night and calls up to say "she no start" this afternoon. It's 34 degrees out. It cranks and you can smell a little gas. It doesn't even pretend to fire. It has a new serpentine belt. I pull a couple of plugs and hold them up to the block. No spark. I check the fuses, which are fine. I play my trump card and jiggle the wires. I read up a bit and can't figure out where the CAS sensor is located. This is the first and cheapest thing to replace, right? The engine is in sideways with the pulley end towards the passenger side. There's no old style distributor, just what looks like a two tier rack that purportedly contains 3 coils, an ignition module plus the plug wires. Is this correct? In my way of looking at things, the rack is facing the front of the car and is on the right side of the block so if you have directions please consider being specific as repair on newer cars doesn't come naturally to me. It isn't obvious to me where the flywheel is either. I guess that's where the CAS is. Is it accessed from underneath with the car on blocks? If the timing chain (belt?) had snapped it would sound like a bucket of bolts when it cranked, right? The other thing is how do I tell if I have a 24x or whatever CAS? VIN from the registration starts with: 1G2WH54TXNF,...etc. Weird thing is why would it drive home fine and then contract sudden sensor death syndrome while parked overnight? It hasn't been running progressively worse or anything in recent weeks. These things usually happen on deserted logging roads at night or on the way to airports, weddings or job interviews, not while you're sleeping. Thank you for your time, wm. > Hi, it's a '92 Pontiac Grand Prix LE 3.1 V6, auto, air, 4dor in an > elegant off white. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Weird thing is why would it drive home fine and then contract sudden > sensor death syndrome while parked overnight? Not weird at all, that's real common on how they fail. I don't know where it is on your vehicle but on mine when it went I would never have found the sensor if I didn't have the factory service manual. You can find a set for your car on Ebay, auction 190058457894 for real cheap, so I guess I don't see why you don't already have a set. Ted >> Hi, it's a '92 Pontiac Grand Prix LE 3.1 V6, auto, air, 4dor in an >> elegant off white. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Ted Gee, I wonder how you knew that, a.shole. > >> Hi, it's a '92 Pontiac Grand Prix LE 3.1 V6, auto, air, 4dor in an > >> elegant off white. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > > Gee, I wonder how you knew that, a.shole. Perhaps he's psychic, dickface. Toyota MDT in MO "No help for you!" shouts the help nazi. "walking man" wrote: < SNIP > (rambling stream-of-consciousness complaint) ... it drives fine then sensors die overnight - weird ? _______________________________________________ Not weird at all, it's a common failure. When mine went I would never have found the sensor if I didn't have the factory service manual. You can find a set real cheap for your car on Ebay auction 190058457894. I don't see why you don't already have a set. _____________________________________________________ "walking man" wrote: I wonder how you knew that, a.shole. ____________________________________________________ Ted, I apologize for that person's language. Please don't be discouraged by one who asks for help, then attacks with rudeness and profanity after being given courteous and creative advice. Rodan. > Hi, it's a '92 Pontiac Grand Prix LE 3.1 V6, auto, air, 4dor in an > elegant off white. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the CAS sensor is located. This is the first and cheapest thing to > replace, right? No. Check the stored trouble codes in the computer. There are numerous places on the internet that tell you how to retrieve them without a code scanner. This is free, if you have a paper clip. You'll know what I mean when you find the instructions. <G> The engine is in sideways with the pulley end towards > the passenger side. There's no old style distributor, just what looks > like a two tier rack that purportedly contains 3 coils, an ignition > module plus the plug wires. Is this correct? Yes. > In my way of looking at things, the rack is facing the front of the > car and is on the right side of the block so if you have directions > please consider being specific as repair on newer cars doesn't come > naturally to me. It isn't obvious to me where the flywheel is either. Right (driver's) side of engine, between block and transaxle. > I guess that's where the CAS is. No? You must mean the Cam Position Sensor. Is it accessed from underneath with > the car on blocks? Yes. It's on the rear side of the engine. If you get underneath, (with jackstands) look at the passenger side axle shaft. Look just past this, and you'll see two different sensors. One is a knock sensor, and the other is the Cam Position Sensor. The computer reads this signal to control the ignition timing. If I'm not mistaken, the knock sensor is the larger of the two. The Cam Position Sensor can be a real bear to get out. Use lots of penetrating oil, and a back and forth twisting motion to remove it, after removing the hold down clamp. If the timing chain (belt?) had snapped it would > sound like a bucket of bolts when it cranked, right? No. Check your compression if you suspect this, as there is no distributor to watch rotate (or not) while cranking. > The other thing is how do I tell if I have a 24x or whatever CAS? > VIN from the registration starts with: 1G2WH54TXNF,...etc. > Weird thing is why would it drive home fine and then contract sudden > sensor death syndrome while parked overnight? On a side note, I've fixed 3 early 90's GM's with 3.1 V-6 that had the same problem you encountered within the last two years. All had the ECM die. No rhyme or reason, all while sitting. Maybe a voltage surge on startup or shutdown, who knows. If you have to replace the ECM, KEEP YOUR OLD PROM!!! and put it in the replacement ECM, unless you get very lucky and find another with the EXACT!!! same numbers on the PROM. It hasn't been running > progressively worse or anything in recent weeks. These things usually > happen on deserted logging roads at night or on the way to airports, > weddings or job interviews, not while you're sleeping. > Thank you for your time, wm.  SignatureSteve Walker fusion640@verizonwallet.net (remove wallet to reply) >> Hi, it's a '92 Pontiac Grand Prix LE 3.1 V6, auto, air, 4dor in an >> elegant off white. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >scanner. This is free, if you have a paper clip. You'll know what I mean >when you find the instructions. <G> A google search seems to indicate there are several computers in this car. I found the diagnostic plug thing just above where your right knee would be if you were driving but there's no LED readout that I can find. This is inside a panel under the dash somewhere? If I understand what I read I'm to jump the two adjacent pins with a paperclip. The only post I could find said the pins were sticking out but these on my diagnostic plug are recessed. Thanks so much for your help. > The engine is in sideways with the pulley end towards >> the passenger side. There's no old style distributor, just what looks [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >No? You must mean the Cam Position Sensor. Yeah, the generic GM Chiltons at our library called it a Camshaft Angle Sensor but further reading at Autozone describes two or three different timing sensors; CKP and CMP with various nondescript locations and blurry diagrams, none of which I can see on this car. I can see one obvious 3 conductor plug/sensor of some type between the oil filter and the starter solenoid but I'm not sure what it is. Another is described as being under a housing on top of the camshaft timing gear. You have to take the car apart to even test it. I'm guessing these are Hall Effect devices that feed a pulse to the ECM. (Not sure where that is either). > Is it accessed from underneath with >> the car on blocks? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >out. Use lots of penetrating oil, and a back and forth twisting motion >to remove it, after removing the hold down clamp. I will try this tomorrow. Thank god you're here. >If the timing chain (belt?) had snapped it would >> sound like a bucket of bolts when it cranked, right? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >replacement ECM, unless you get very lucky and find another with the >EXACT!!! same numbers on the PROM. I will look for that. The ECM is a different item than "the computer", right? The ECM is one of 3 plastic squares in the fuse panel under the hood on the driver's side, right? Thanks again and happy motoring. > It hasn't been running >> progressively worse or anything in recent weeks. These things usually >> happen on deserted logging roads at night or on the way to airports, >> weddings or job interviews, not while you're sleeping. >> Thank you for your time, wm. > A google search seems to indicate there are several computers in this > car. I found the diagnostic plug thing just above where your right [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but these on my diagnostic plug are recessed. > Thanks so much for your help. Paper clip plugs into the two indicated connector holes on the diagnostic plug. Then turn the key on, and watch the check engine light, which will flash the codes. Example code 44: check engine light will flash 4 times, then delay a bit, and flash 4 times again. There may be more than one code stored. >> No? You must mean the Cam Position Sensor. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > can see one obvious 3 conductor plug/sensor of some type between the > oil filter and the starter solenoid but I'm not sure what it is. Nope. Not that one. > Another is described as being under a housing on top of the camshaft > timing gear. You have to take the car apart to even test it. I believe that one is on the 3800 V-6. I'm > guessing these are Hall Effect devices that feed a pulse to the ECM. > (Not sure where that is either). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > I will try this tomorrow. Thank god you're here. >> If you have to replace the ECM, KEEP YOUR OLD PROM!!! and put it in the >> replacement ECM, unless you get very lucky and find another with the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > right? The ECM is one of 3 plastic squares in the fuse panel under the > hood on the driver's side, right? No, sorry. The ECM is the same thing as the computer. It is on the passenger side inner fenderwell, on the front. It may be under a large plastic cover. It's a roughly square box, about the size of a thick school textbook. It was on the '90 Olds I fixed. On my '93 Lumina it was more in the open. Thanks again and happy motoring. >> It hasn't been running >>> progressively worse or anything in recent weeks. These things usually >>> happen on deserted logging roads at night or on the way to airports, >>> weddings or job interviews, not while you're sleeping. >>> Thank you for your time, wm. SignatureSteve Walker fusion640@verizonwallet.net (remove wallet to reply) >> A google search seems to indicate there are several computers in this >> car. I found the diagnostic plug thing just above where your right [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >check engine light will flash 4 times, then delay a bit, and flash 4 >times again. There may be more than one code stored. cool, I will try that. >>> No? You must mean the Cam Position Sensor. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Nope. Not that one. Ok, I found a 4 conductor plug near the top of the flywheel end of the block facing towards the front of the car. Grn, purple, white, white/Bk. This is on the drivers side. It doesn't have any +12 to it that I can find with the key on. You have to take the air cleaner housing off to access it properly. It had one of the wires broken (white/Bk). Resoldering it didn't fix anything. There's a 2 conductor plug on the drivers side of the distributorless coil assembly thing. It has key-on +12. There's another plug, 5 conductors at the passenger end of the coil assembly. I haven't checked it yet as it was getting dark. >> Another is described as being under a housing on top of the camshaft >> timing gear. You have to take the car apart to even test it. > >I believe that one is on the 3800 V-6. Hope you're right. There is a wire bundle that disappears into there, two smaller bundles branch from that point into the valve cover. > I'm >> guessing these are Hall Effect devices that feed a pulse to the ECM. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>> out. Use lots of penetrating oil, and a back and forth twisting motion >>> to remove it, after removing the hold down clamp. I don't see either of these yet. This is the pulley end of the block. A failed sensor here could produce a no-spark problem? >> I will try this tomorrow. Thank god you're here. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >school textbook. It was on the '90 Olds I fixed. On my '93 Lumina it was >more in the open. Hmm, the only thing that looks close to your description is on the drivers side under the hood next to a fuse/relay panel near the strut tower. It's a sealed black plastic box about the size of a paperback book standing on it's edge and is tucked up against some kind of fuel injector module. More will be revealed. Thanks again for your time. > Thanks again and happy motoring. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>> weddings or job interviews, not while you're sleeping. >>>> Thank you for your time, wm. <SNIP> >> Nope. Not that one. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > housing off to access it properly. It had one of the wires broken > (white/Bk). Resoldering it didn't fix anything. Not that one. > There's a 2 conductor plug on the drivers side of the distributorless > coil assembly thing. It has key-on +12. Nope. There's another plug, 5 > conductors at the passenger end of the coil assembly. Nope. > Hope you're right. There is a wire bundle that disappears into there, > two smaller bundles branch from that point into the valve cover. Fuel injector harness. Runs under the upper intake manifold plenum. >>>> Yes. It's on the rear side of the engine. If you get underneath, (with >>>> jackstands) look at the passenger side axle shaft. Look just past this, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>>> > I don't see either of these yet. This is the pulley end of the block. Oops. My bad. Place your head under the front floorboard and look toward the front of the car, so you can see the passenger side axle shaft. the sensors are on this side of the engine. > A failed sensor here could produce a no-spark problem? Yes. >>> I will try this tomorrow. Thank god you're here. <SNIP> > Hmm, the only thing that looks close to your description is on the > drivers side under the hood next to a fuse/relay panel near the strut > tower. It's a sealed black plastic box about the size of a paperback > book standing on it's edge and is tucked up against some kind of fuel > injector module. Could be it. Big harness, 3 or 4 large connectors connecting to the box? > More will be revealed. Thanks again for your time. SignatureSteve Walker fusion640@verizonwallet.net (remove wallet to reply) ><SNIP> > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >the front of the car, so you can see the passenger side axle shaft. the >sensors are on this side of the engine. Found 3 possibilities here. I had to take off the passenger side wheel, panel etc and it's still an almost impossible fit. There's a small 2 conductor plug/sensor mounted vertically just above the frame cross member towards the rear of the vehicle on the left side of the block. Purple/Yellow. Also some kind of larger assembly that looks like it's part of the drive shaft and mounts in some kind of elbow. Pretty big cluster of wires here. The other one is higher up on the block and has a 22mm or so nut but only one conductor wire to it. >> A failed sensor here could produce a no-spark problem? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Could be it. Big harness, 3 or 4 large connectors connecting to the box? One connector with 6 14g wires in a row. Can't get this off without disconnecting what look like 4 fuel lines. >> More will be revealed. Thanks again for your time. >>>>>> Yes. It's on the rear side of the engine. If you get underneath, (with >>>>>> jackstands) look at the passenger side axle shaft. Look just past this, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > cross member towards the rear of the vehicle on the left side of the > block. Purple/Yellow. BINGO!! There should be a hold down clamp, similar to a distributor hold down clamp, or integral to the sensor. It takes a 10mm wrench. The wire connector should be sideways, not straight out. Also some kind of larger assembly that looks > like it's part of the drive shaft and mounts in some kind of elbow. > Pretty big cluster of wires here. Nope. The other one is higher up on the > block and has a 22mm or so nut but only one conductor wire to it. Knock sensor. >>> Hmm, the only thing that looks close to your description is on the >>> drivers side under the hood next to a fuse/relay panel near the strut [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > One connector with 6 14g wires in a row. Can't get this off without > disconnecting what look like 4 fuel lines. Nope. If you can, get to a salvage yard and ask to see a GM ECM from a vehicle similar to yours. >>> More will be revealed. Thanks again for your time. SignatureSteve Walker fusion640@verizonwallet.net (remove wallet to reply) >>>>>>> Yes. It's on the rear side of the engine. If you get underneath, (with >>>>>>> jackstands) look at the passenger side axle shaft. Look just past this, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >down clamp, or integral to the sensor. It takes a 10mm wrench. The wire >connector should be sideways, not straight out. I see it through a 2" crack between the transaxle and the block. It's an 8mm nut in this case. I looked at a new part and the pickup part of the sensor is about 2 inches long. I don't see how it's possible to get a new part in even if I could get the old part out. If I knew for a fact this was the right part to replace I'd try it but I don't know the test procedure for the 2 conductor sensor. I guess I could cut the wires out of the bundle and re-solder them later from underneath the car to test it with the sensor in place. I tried removing the engine mounts and swinging the block over; that's when I figured out the block and trans are one unit. Duh. > Also some kind of larger assembly that looks >> like it's part of the drive shaft and mounts in some kind of elbow. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Nope. If you can, get to a salvage yard and ask to see a GM ECM from a >vehicle similar to yours. I hot wired the diagnostic plug and got a repeating 12 code, which I guess mean there are no stored codes. I may have inadvertently cleared them screwing around. I found a crude computer inside a 4x5 black plastic box under the dash where your left knee would be if you were driving. 5 conductor molex plug. Discrete components and some 16DIP gate chips. Nothing looks like it's been wet or on fire here. The diagnostic plug above where your right knee would be feeds a bundle interconnect of 30 wires or so and disappears everywhere. The bulkhead connector on the engine side of the firewall doesn't wiggle at all. This was a common failure point for older cars which wouldn't start. I thought I'd check the ignition switch but it looks impossible to remove. The parts guy showed me an ignition module which is part of the coil assembly. $235. We probably need to tow this to a diagnostic place since you're not here to fix it for me in person, Steve. Thanks for all your effort. wm. >>>> More will be revealed. Thanks again for your time. |
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