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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2006

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How to diagnose any possible engine damage from overheating

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bagarow@yahoo.com - 07 Dec 2006 13:36 GMT
Hi

We have an Honda Odyssey minivan with an Aluminum engine. My spouse had
an animal hit that caused some front end damage (bumper etc). It also
damaged the radiator to leak and she drove the vehicle (normal town
driving 30-50 mphs speeds) for about another 150 miles over 3-4 days.
When I came back from an out of town trip, i found no hot air was being
blown into the passenger compartment even with the heat setting being
high. I checked the coolant level in the radiator and could not see any
coolant on top of the fins inside (although the overflow tank still
showed the coolant level between MIN and MAX). Looking through the
front grill, I saw the radiator fins had been damaged. I started to
drive it to the body shop but in about 4-5 miles, the temperature
indicator went 75% of the way up. At that point I stopped and called in
the tow truck.

Is there a way to tell if the engine suffered any damage, especially
since the van has an Aluminum engine? Is there any diagnostic tests
that I could get done to figure this out?

Any help is much appreciated
Bob
N8N - 07 Dec 2006 14:18 GMT
> Hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Any help is much appreciated
> Bob

Pressure test the cooling system after repairing the radiator.  This
will tell you if you've blown a head gasket.  Now to see if you've
damaged any rings etc. you're just going to have to drive it and see if
oil consumption remains reasonable.

nate
Donald Lewis - 07 Dec 2006 17:35 GMT
>Hi
>
>We have an Honda Odyssey minivan

Year please?  4 or 6 cyl?

> with an Aluminum engine. My spouse had
>an animal hit that caused some front end damage (bumper etc). It also
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>since the van has an Aluminum engine? Is there any diagnostic tests
>that I could get done to figure this out?

Is the "check engine" light on?  If it is, and if the code that was
set is for "engine coolant temperature out of normal range," a GOOD
scan tool can pull a "freeze-frame" and tell you what the temperature
reading was at the time the code was set.

A five gas analyzer can be used to test for the presence of
hydrocarbons or carbon monxide in the cooling system which may catch a
head gasket problem not otherwise apparent yet.

The Honda 4 cyl engine is pretty rugged.  All aluminum is actually
MORE rugged construction than cast iron block/aluminum head
construction.

Don
www.donsautomotive.com

>Any help is much appreciated
>Bob
bagarow@yahoo.com - 07 Dec 2006 22:26 GMT
> Year please?  4 or 6 cyl?

It is a 05 Odyssey EX. It is a V6.

Thanks
Bob
Steve - 08 Dec 2006 00:22 GMT
> Is there a way to tell if the engine suffered any damage, especially
> since the van has an Aluminum engine? Is there any diagnostic tests
> that I could get done to figure this out?

A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the
rings have lost their tension. A cooling system pressure test will tell
if the block and/or head has warped allowing the head gasket to leak.

If it passes those, it should be OK.
Brent P - 08 Dec 2006 04:44 GMT
> A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the
> rings have lost their tension.

Actually Nate is right, drive it and see.... Having delt with a car that
had been overheated, I did a compression test and everything was fine.
Some miles later it had hellish blowby... The rings had given up after I
did the compression test and repaired the problems.
jim - 08 Dec 2006 12:26 GMT
> > A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the
> > rings have lost their tension.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Some miles later it had hellish blowby... The rings had given up after I
> did the compression test and repaired the problems.

Yes, this is due to glazing of modern oil additives on the rings under
extreme heat conditions. Briggs and Stratton has done studies that
document this phenomenon. They recommend against using any modern
automotive oils in their small air-cooled engines for this reason. Under
the right conditions (hot summer day, dust and lawn debris on cooling
fins or restricting airflow,  etc.) using modern automotive oil versus
the recommended straight weight oil can make the difference of a lawn
mower's rings lasting 10 minutes or 10 years.
    Changing the oil right away after an overheating incident is a good
idea.

-jim
drew300 - 08 Dec 2006 21:53 GMT
Since it's an automatic, with water cooling, maybe see / smell if the
tranny fluid is burnt. Probably not, but it's a cheap check

Signature

drew300

http://www.automotiveforums.com

Steve - 08 Dec 2006 23:13 GMT
>>>A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the
>>>rings have lost their tension.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> document this phenomenon. They recommend against using any modern
> automotive oils in their small air-cooled engines for this reason

Now you talk about "myth and legends..." oils and small air-cooled
engines are ripe territory for that. "Never use a multi-grade oil in a
lawnmower- it'll coke and glaze and cause failure!" (probably true in
the early days of multi-grade oils, actually, but many oils made
specifically for small air-cooled engines these days are multi-grade).
"Never run ANY automotive oil" was another myth, as was "never run a
detergent oil in an air-cooled engine." Completely bogus. The main thing
is to run the right GRADE, and far too many people think an air-cooled
engine needs uber-thick oil. Briggs (and many other) small engines are
splash lubricated, and too thick an oil simply won't lubricate them
fully until they're very hot. Most small engines recommend SAE 30 or SAE
10W30 oil, not 50-weight. They're lawnmowers, not radial airplane engines!
jim - 09 Dec 2006 02:52 GMT
> >>>A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the
> >>>rings have lost their tension.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> engines are ripe territory for that. "Never use a multi-grade oil in a
> lawnmower- it'll coke and glaze and cause failure!"

Here's a typical Briggs & Stratton Oil Recommendation that comes with
the small engines they sell I quote:

"Air cooled engines run hotter than automotive engines. Use of
multi-viscosity oils (10W-30, etc.) above 40° F (4° C) will result in
high oil consumption and possible engine damage. Check oil level more
frequently if using these types of oils."

Of course they put this in fine print so they can sell a new lawnmower
engine to the ignorant every couple of years. Their recommendation for
the best oil for some of their hottest running little engines is to use
straight weight API type SC which is I believe what cars used back in
the 50's and pretty much has no additives. They have different
recommendations for different engines but the main issue is temperature.
Snow blowers can use modern automotive oils (10w30 5w30) without
problems. They don't say never use multi-grade oils. It's only when
temperatures are above 40°F that they recommend against. It becomes a
much bigger issue when the temps are in the 90's and the engine has
accumulated dust and lawn debris in the cooling fins. Under those
conditions putting the same oil as is in your car is almost guaranteed
to fry the rings.

    If you want to claim they are lying go ahead, but it is not a myth that
they have studied this extensively and they do make these
recommendations.

-jim

> (probably true in
> the early days of multi-grade oils, actually, but many oils made
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> fully until they're very hot. Most small engines recommend SAE 30 or SAE
> 10W30 oil, not 50-weight. They're lawnmowers, not radial airplane engines!
hls - 09 Dec 2006 13:35 GMT
Do they say anything about synthetics?      I    bought a new Briggs mower a
couple of years ago, and changed
to synthetic after the engine was fully run in.  (I bought it from my
sister, who found she couldnt handle it..She had
lost the warantee receipt and other documentation)

Soon after I shifted to Mobil 1, it started using oil disastrously.  When I
talked to the garden shop representative
at Lowes, he said that Briggs had warned against using synthetics just for
this reason.  He suggested that if I rebuilt
the engine using high quality chrome rings, it might hold.

I honed the cylinder, and rebuilt it using standard Briggs and Statton
parts, and it worked okay for a short while.
Then went back to burning oil like crazy.  Gave that POS away.  In the
future, I will be a bit more careful with
warranty documents AND with oil changes.
jim - 09 Dec 2006 14:46 GMT
> Do they say anything about synthetics?      I    bought a new Briggs mower a
> couple of years ago, and changed
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> future, I will be a bit more careful with
> warranty documents AND with oil changes.

You need to read the documentation that comes with your particular
engine. They do recommend synthetics, multi-grade, high detergent or
whatever in some of their engines. The issue is temperature and their
engines are not all built with the same design.
    For a push mower with a small engine how deep the grass you are cutting
can be a significant factor in how hot the cylinder walls get. As you
load down the engine you create more heat and less capacity to cool the
engine - so it obviously gets hotter. With modern automotive oils at
some point where the engine reaches a certain threshold temperature the
rings seem to go downhill pretty rapidly. I would think that temperature
threshold point would be higher for synthetics, but if they recommend
against synthetics in some particular engine than it is probably not
high enough for the worst case (hottest) scenario.

    So you buy a new lawnmower and when it's new its got the right oil in
it. So a year or 3 later you decide to change the oil one spring. And
you put the same stuff you put in your car in the lawnmower. And you mow
the lawn for a couple of months and everything seems to be fine. Then
along comes that brutally hot spell in August and you think you'll wait
till it cools off to mow the lawn, but it doesn't cool off and so you
get out there and mow your knee high grass. The next thing you know your
lawnmower is an oil burner - which is good because the mosquito's were
starting to get really bad :^)

    When you read that someone has an auto engine that overheats and
immediately after the incident it has good compression, but that it
rapidly degenerates into poor compression soon after driving it for a
while you have to suspect that the same phenomenon is at work there.

-jim
hls - 09 Dec 2006 14:54 GMT
> You need to read the documentation that comes with your particular
> engine.

That was my first mistake..no documentation

> So you buy a new lawnmower and when it's new its got the right oil in
> it. So a year or 3 later you decide to change the oil one spring.

You did not understand my post.  I ran the original oil until the engine had
a chance to break in...Estimate 5-10 hours... Not an old engine at all.

After rebuild, the engine probably ran another 5-10 hours before it lapsed
into fumigation mode.

The engine did not last one season.
jim - 09 Dec 2006 18:00 GMT
> > You need to read the documentation that comes with your particular
> > engine.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You did not understand my post.  I ran the original oil until the engine had
> a chance to break in...Estimate 5-10 hours... Not an old engine at all.

No actually you misunderstood my meaning. I didn't mean that is what you
in particular did. I meant that is what people in general do. You
probably would have gotten atleast 5 years out of it if you hadn't
changed oil at all.

> After rebuild, the engine probably ran another 5-10 hours before it lapsed
> into fumigation mode.
>
> The engine did not last one season.

My push mower is about 10 years old and doesn't burn any oil. I have
never had to add any and have changed the oil maybe  3  times.

-jim
Steve - 10 Dec 2006 01:02 GMT
> You did not understand my post.  I ran the original oil until the engine had
> a chance to break in...Estimate 5-10 hours... Not an old engine at all.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The engine did not last one season.

If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. While those
*used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been
complete crap since the 80s. The 5-horse and larger engines are still
quite good- far better than the imports IMO. But if you need a 3-horse
class mower, get one with a Honda or Tecumseh engine.
jim - 10 Dec 2006 01:39 GMT
> > You did not understand my post.  I ran the original oil until the engine had
> > a chance to break in...Estimate 5-10 hours... Not an old engine at all.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> *used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been
> complete crap since the 80s.

The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better its the oil you
put in them that is not holding up. If you put the same type oil you put
in them in the 50's and 60's they last longer than they used to.

>The 5-horse and larger engines are still
> quite good-

Briggs says synthetics are OK for most of these engines - RTFM.

-jim
Steve - 15 Dec 2006 22:18 GMT
>>If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. While those
>>*used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been
>>complete crap since the 80s.
>
> The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better

You're talking out your ear. They've cheapened so many parts in the
4-horse and under engines that its not even funny.

> its the oil you
> put in them that is not holding up.

Then how come my 1958 slant-carb 2.5 horse Briggs still runs great, mr
know-nothing-at-all?

You REALLY need to actually open up a few of these engines before you
mouth off.
jim - 16 Dec 2006 16:08 GMT
> >>If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. While those
> >>*used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You're talking out your ear. They've cheapened so many parts in the
> 4-horse and under engines that its not even funny.

The part we were discussing is the block. There isn't much difference in
the design.

> > its the oil you
> > put in them that is not holding up.
>
> Then how come my 1958 slant-carb 2.5 horse Briggs still runs great, mr
> know-nothing-at-all?

The carb has changed so has just about anything you can see on the
outside.

> You REALLY need to actually open up a few of these engines before you
> mouth off.

    What would I find different inside? It's not like they had any thing
more than the bare essentials inside there 50 years ago. What I'm I
going to find that they have eliminated or changed significantly inside.
In general the internal parts are cast and machined to more consistent
level of quality and accuracy than they were 50 years ago.
   
    And yes, the engines are probably built lighter and cheaper than they
were 50 years ago. If a manufacturer builds an engine for $100 that will
last 10 years and builds another of the same size for $200 that will
last 50 years today's consumer will buy the $100 engine every time so
manufacturers respond to consumer demand and are not going to build a
product no one will buy.
    If you had to buy a push lawnmower in 1958 dollars adjusted for
inflation your lawnmower would cost close to $1000 dollars today. Or put
another way, if you go to Wal-mart and look at what a cheap push-mower
cost today and adjust that cost to 1958 dollars that mower would have
sold for less than $10 in 1958.

    And besides your ignorance of the impact of changing economics you also
seem to be completely oblivious to the change in government regulations
that contribute to some of the changes that you are seeing in the design
(particularly that carb of which you seem to be so fond).

    But all of that has very little to do with the present discussion
(other than to establish your incapacity to reason well).
    If you buy a Briggs motor and you do not use the recommended oil you do
risk damaging the engine and ending its life prematurely. And the reason
for that is that some of the additives used in modern automotive oils
simply do not hold up when they are subjected to temperatures above a
certain point. And some small air-cooled  engines can and do get the oil
that hot, which is much hotter than you ever would get the oil in a
normal properly functioning automobile.
    If you do use an oil that can take the heat, and in every other way
maintain the engine properly you can reasonably expect the engine to
outlast just about every other part on a modern push-mower. That is, the
wheels are all going to fall off, the handle break, and all the other
cheap plastic and stamped metal components disintegrate long before you
have any problems with the engine.  

-jim
hls - 16 Dec 2006 17:07 GMT
>> > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better

Lacking statistics, this is a matter of opinion.  I suspect the metallurgy
is worse, but cant prove it
jim - 16 Dec 2006 20:03 GMT
> >> > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better
>
> Lacking statistics, this is a matter of opinion.  I suspect the metallurgy
> is worse, but cant prove it

    I work in the metal casting industry and I can assure you the foundry
that cast your block has got stacks and stacks of statistics that say
you are wrong. Statistically they are better made. Statistically, the
block you get today, the metal is going to be poured at closer to the
ideal temperature and closer to the ideal alloy composition than it was
50 years ago. Statistically the parts are going to be machined so that
they can be held to closer tolerance than the were 50 years ago. When
you buy a new engine they burn less oil to begin with then they did 50
years ago.
    There are a lot of things on your lawn mower that are cheap and not
designed to last, but that doesn't have any thing to do with the problem
you had. Most push mowers sold today have no provision for adjusting the
carburetor. Just how long do you think a '50's lawn mower would last
with that feature?

-jim
hls - 16 Dec 2006 21:53 GMT
>> >> > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> -jim

Okay, bottom line...what is the reason you think this mower gave such a
short run?
jim - 16 Dec 2006 22:43 GMT
> >> >> > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Okay, bottom line...what is the reason you think this mower gave such a
> short run?

I already told you if you hadn't changed the oil at all the engine would
have lasted 5 years. If you never even ever checked the oil it probably
would have lasted 3 or 4 years. Everything you said points to
lubrication failure. Next time why don't you try extra virgin olive oil
at least it will smell good when you burn her up.
-jim
hls - 16 Dec 2006 22:51 GMT
> I already told you if you hadn't changed the oil at all the engine would
> have lasted 5 years. If you never even ever checked the oil it probably
> would have lasted 3 or 4 years. Everything you said points to
> lubrication failure. Next time why don't you try extra virgin olive oil
> at least it will smell good when you burn her up.
> -jim

Yes, you said that, but it doesnt seem to fit
Steve - 17 Dec 2006 01:31 GMT
> I already told you if you hadn't changed the oil at all the engine would
> have lasted 5 years. If you never even ever checked the oil it probably
> would have lasted 3 or 4 years. Everything you said points to
> lubrication failure. Next time why don't you try extra virgin olive oil
> at least it will smell good when you burn her up.
> -jim

You have GOT to be the biggest twit to show up on here since Parker
left. Stick to weighing Fram filters to prove they catch more dirt.
Scott Dorsey - 16 Dec 2006 23:20 GMT
>    I work in the metal casting industry and I can assure you the foundry
>that cast your block has got stacks and stacks of statistics that say
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>you buy a new engine they burn less oil to begin with then they did 50
>years ago.

Assuming we are talking about US-made castings, this is true.  HOWEVER,
I will say that the tighter tolerances possible today are not always a
good thing.  When tolerances were sloppier, there was a tendency for
engineers to over-reinforce parts of castings that were going to be
machined, and today there isn't that need.  You get lighter castings,
and statistically speaking the worst ones aren't any worse than they
ever were, but the best ones aren't as good.

Secondly, having tighter tolerances makes it possible to design stuff
that only works with those tighter tolerances.  Whereas fifty years ago
engines would be designed to work with comparatively wide ring tolerances,
today they are often designed to work with more tight tolerances.  The
result is better efficiency and less friction but when the cylinders start
wearing, problems appear faster.

>    There are a lot of things on your lawn mower that are cheap and not
>designed to last, but that doesn't have any thing to do with the problem
>you had. Most push mowers sold today have no provision for adjusting the
>carburetor. Just how long do you think a '50's lawn mower would last
>with that feature?

A more serious issue, though, is that a lot of stuff that used to be cast
in US foundries with good quality control are now being made offshore in
some places where quality control is agricultural in nature.  They cast
parts as fast as they can with whatever metal they have, and just like
apples or peas, they sort them into grades A, B, and C depending on how
they came out.  

I won't mention any names here, but a lot of US manufacturers are going
to offshore manufacture because the customers want products that are cheap,
not necessarily products that are good.  I recently saw a 2KVA (and that is
optimistic) generator built by a company called Standard, which had the worst
material used in the block I have ever seen.  It makes the Trabant engine
look like high quality in comparison.  This is steel I wouldn't even want
my steam iron made out of.  Needless to say, the reliability of the generator
is questionable.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

jim - 17 Dec 2006 01:20 GMT
> Assuming we are talking about US-made castings, this is true.

We are talking about Briggs and stratton their castings are made in US.

>  HOWEVER,
> I will say that the tighter tolerances possible today are not always a
> good thing.  When tolerances were sloppier, there was a tendency for
> engineers to over-reinforce parts of castings that were going to be
> machined,

Over-reinforce? We are talking about an increased machining accuracy of
only a few thousands. the amount of machining stock added to a casting
doesn't have much affect on the end result as it gets machined off.

> and today there isn't that need.  You get lighter castings,
> and statistically speaking the worst ones aren't any worse than they
> ever were, but the best ones aren't as good.

And why would that be true? What would be the point of machining more
accurately if the worst gets worse and the best aren't as good? Sounds
like something right out of  Alice in Wonderland.

> Secondly, having tighter tolerances makes it possible to design stuff
> that only works with those tighter tolerances.  Whereas fifty years ago
> engines would be designed to work with comparatively wide ring tolerances,
> today they are often designed to work with more tight tolerances.  The
> result is better efficiency and less friction but when the cylinders start
> wearing, problems appear faster.

That's doesn't make sense why would less friction cause the cylinders
wear rapidly. There are a number of things that can cause modern push
mower engines to deteriorate rapidly. For instance, in an effort to
comply with cleaner air standards small engines are designed to run
leaner with no provision for mixture adjustment. That alone pretty much
guarantees they are going to go down hill pretty fast once they start to
loose a little compression. Also in the old days when the engine had
points if you hit something with the mower and the flywheel key sheared
a little the engine stopped running and you had to fix it. With the
modern ignitions the engine doesn't loose spark and can just continue to
run with the ignition out of time. Continuing to operate a mower with
incorrect timing can seriously shorten the engines life span. There are
other external components that are not as durable. But none of that has
anything to do with the quality of what's inside and in particular
nothing to do with the quality of the metal.

> >       There are a lot of things on your lawn mower that are cheap and not
> >designed to last, but that doesn't have any thing to do with the problem
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> apples or peas, they sort them into grades A, B, and C depending on how
> they came out.

I believe Briggs and Stratton casts all their engines here in the US so
we don't need to muddy the waters with that little fairy tail. There ae
plenty of good castings made outside the US.

> I won't mention any names here, but a lot of US manufacturers are going
> to offshore manufacture because the customers want products that are cheap,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> my steam iron made out of.  Needless to say, the reliability of the generator
> is questionable.

Steel engine block? - well that is a new one on me.

-jim

> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Steve - 17 Dec 2006 01:37 GMT
>>Assuming we are talking about US-made castings, this is true.
>
> We are talking about Briggs and stratton their castings are made in US.

Are you SURE.... better check all your facts....
Scott Dorsey - 17 Dec 2006 13:56 GMT
>> A more serious issue, though, is that a lot of stuff that used to be cast
>> in US foundries with good quality control are now being made offshore in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>we don't need to muddy the waters with that little fairy tail. There ae
>plenty of good castings made outside the US.

There are some excellent castings made outside the US, from folks like
Honda and Husqvarna.  There are, as I point out, also some pretty dreadful
ones.

>> I won't mention any names here, but a lot of US manufacturers are going
>> to offshore manufacture because the customers want products that are cheap,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Steel engine block? - well that is a new one on me.

Well, it sure wasn't cast iron.... the stuff was outrageously soft.  
--scott

Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Steve - 17 Dec 2006 01:28 GMT
>>>>If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. While those
>>>>*used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the design.
>  

We're discussing the block, rings, piston, crank, conrod, bearings.

>You REALLY need to actually open up a few of these engines before you
>>mouth off.
>
>     What would I find different inside? It's not like they had any thing
> more than the bare essentials inside there 50 years ago. What I'm I
> going to find that they have eliminated or changed significantly inside.

The block material today is inferior (softer). The assembly quality
today is horrible.

> In general the internal parts are cast and machined to more consistent
> level of quality and accuracy than they were 50 years ago.

Not in a small Briggs&Stratton, they aren't.

>     But all of that has very little to do with the present discussion
> (other than to establish your incapacity to reason well).

*MY* capacity to reason well? Pot, kettle, black!  You're the one who
thinks you can tell how dirty an oil filter is by how heavy it feels.
You're also the one who failed to catch the fact that, while you state
that it is the OIL that kills modern small engines not that they're made
like crap, *I* pointed out that I have a 1958 Briggs running happily on
Mobil 1 10w30, but hls couldn't get a modern one to last more than a few
hours on any oil.

And you question *my* capacity to reason well?  Sheesh.
jim - 17 Dec 2006 02:16 GMT
>  while you state
> that it is the OIL that kills modern small engines

No I said it is high temperature that destroys the lubricating capacity
of some oils.

> not that they're made
> like crap, *I* pointed out that I have a 1958 Briggs running happily on
> Mobil 1 10w30,

That only indicates that the engine does not run as hot. they don't all
run at the same temperature B&S does recommend different oils for
different engines and the essential difference is the maximum operating
temperature characteristic of a given model.

> but hls couldn't get a modern one to last more than a few
> hours on any oil.

It ran fine before he changed the oil. He was told by the service
department that B&S recommended against using that type of oil in that
engine. You can't infer anything at all from using the same oil in some
other model of engine. He never tried to use the recommended oil. Yet he
blames the manufacturer whose recommendations he ignored.

My push mower has gone 10 years using the recommended straight weight
oil and I have never had to add any oil between changes. Many people get
many years of service out of these engines without even knowing they
have oil in them.

-jim
hls - 17 Dec 2006 09:25 GMT
> It ran fine before he changed the oil. He was told by the service
> department that B&S recommended against using that type of oil in that
> engine. You can't infer anything at all from using the same oil in some
> other model of engine. He never tried to use the recommended oil. Yet he
> blames the manufacturer whose recommendations he ignored.

Dont put words in my mouth.  I did not see anything saying not to use the
synthetic...I was told that
after the failure, and that was word of mouth.

When the engine was rebuilt, I went back to standard dino oil...The rebuild
didnt last longer than
a few hours...maybe 8-10.
jim - 17 Dec 2006 14:55 GMT
> > It ran fine before he changed the oil. He was told by the service
> > department that B&S recommended against using that type of oil in that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> synthetic...I was told that
> after the failure, and that was word of mouth.

Whether you were aware of it or not - you ignored their recommendation.
And it would seem even now you prefer to preserve your ignorance rather
than find out what exactly what is/was recommended or why it is
recommended. Instead you prefer to make up facts out of thin air about
metallurgy and machining methods to explain what happened.

> When the engine was rebuilt, I went back to standard dino oil...The rebuild
> didnt last longer than
> a few hours...maybe 8-10.

    Well, standard dino oil was not likely what they recommended for that
engine either. Whatever you put in the second time may have been even
worse than what you put in the first time. What originally came with the
engine was probably a synthetic. Briggs uses their own brand of
synthetic that they claim is especially formulated to withstand much
higher temps than other synthetics. And Briggs doesn't say use only
their oil (I don't think they legally can). What they do say is if you
choose to put 10w30 in the engine make sure you check the oil often.
These engines will run a long long time even when they are at the point
of adding a cup of oil with each tank of gas.

    If you had asked the dealer or any place that sells and services push
mowers with Briggs engines, you would find out that many people get
years of use from the same engine and they do no maintenance at all. In
fact, that is the targeted consumer for these cheapo mowers. They are
designed to be used and discarded and the engine will generally last as
long (usually longer) than the rest of the mower.
 
    It's likely that the carb has no adjustment for your engine so after
your rebuild it was probably running extremely lean which contributes to
making the engine run even hotter than it did before. Everything you
have said indicates that heat was the root cause of your problems. And
probably by the time you were done with your rebuild the grass was
getting pretty tall which doesn't make it run any cooler either. The
fact that someone else has an engine that doesn't run quite as hot and
thus survives proves nothing at all about what happened to your engine.
I suspect that there are thousands of purchasers that bought the same
mower at the same time you did and who have done nothing at all in
maintenance still have a running lawn mower.     
   
    But getting back to the original poster's question and my answer to
it.  If you had put what most people are using in their cars today (5w30
petroleum oil) the type of failure you experienced in that type of
engine would have been almost a sure thing. That's because the critical
temperature where that type of catastrophic failure occurs is lower for
standard 5w30 than it is for 10w30, which in turn is lower than a
synthetic like Mobil 1.  
    The OP didn't say what type of oil he uses. but in any case changing
the oil after a overheating incident is cheap insurance just in case the
oil reached the critical point where serious engine damage like you
experienced can occur. That doesn't mean that high temperature
definitely was the cause of your engine failure, but the facts as you
presented them, point to nothing else.

-jim
hls - 17 Dec 2006 15:51 GMT
Well, Jim, it is clear that you havent a clue what went on, and just want to
demean me..

I make mistakes just like everybody else, but listening to you will not be
another of them.
hls - 10 Dec 2006 08:15 GMT
>> You did not understand my post.  I ran the original oil until the engine
>> had
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising.

Well, that is exactly the engine in question.
It had a noticeable ring ridge after the few hours it ran.  I removed the
ridge, and felt
that the aluminum seemed to be awfully soft.  In fact, I had some misgivings
about
honing it at all, but did anyway...Tried to give it a reasonable finish.
Steve - 15 Dec 2006 22:20 GMT
>>>You did not understand my post.  I ran the original oil until the engine
>>>had
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> about
> honing it at all, but did anyway...Tried to give it a reasonable finish.

And as you discovered, its impossible. Sad to say it, but the smallest
Briggs engines of today are truly awful. I hate to see a great American
company go that way. I just hope the MBA-induced product rot doesn't
spread to the rest of their engine line, or my next lawnmower may be a
stinking H*nda.
Steve W. - 15 Dec 2006 23:37 GMT
>>>> You did not understand my post.  I ran the original oil until the
>>>> engine had
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> spread to the rest of their engine line, or my next lawnmower may be a
> stinking H*nda.

Keep in mind that the Vanguards and the OHV engines are Mitsubishi

Signature

Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, BBQ in one hand, martini in the other, body
thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming: "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Steve - 16 Dec 2006 03:43 GMT
>> And as you discovered, its impossible. Sad to say it, but the smallest
>> Briggs engines of today are truly awful. I hate to see a great
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Keep in mind that the Vanguards and the OHV engines are Mitsubishi

I thought it was Kawasaki, but about the same difference. The only
things left that are any good are the big side-valves. I/C and
Commercial series. Or any of the few million pre-1980s ones still out
there running (and running, and running, and running....)
Scott Dorsey - 09 Dec 2006 16:18 GMT
>Do they say anything about synthetics?      I    bought a new Briggs mower a
>couple of years ago, and changed
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>this reason.  He suggested that if I rebuilt
>the engine using high quality chrome rings, it might hold.

Most synthetic oils have very good flow characteristics.  This is a good
thing in a circulated oil system, but it is a major problem with engines
that use splash-plate lubrication.  The oil runs off the plate before it
has a chance to splash it up anywhere, and the end result is poor
lubrication.

There ARE synthetic oils designed for small engines, which are a bit more
sticky.  They have the adhesion of a petroleum oil, while having the high
breakdown temperature of a synthetic.  Royal Purple makes one that seems
to be good; we use it in generators where the engines may sit for several
years without more than an occasional ten-minute test run.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Steve - 10 Dec 2006 01:01 GMT
>>Do they say anything about synthetics?      I    bought a new Briggs mower a
>>couple of years ago, and changed
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> has a chance to splash it up anywhere, and the end result is poor
> lubrication.

My understanding is that this was a problem with EARLY synthetics, but
was corrected years and years ago. Early synthetics exhibited the same
problem in pressure-lubricated engines, but in a different way. The oil
would drain out of vertical bearing gaps (namely the crankshaft thrust
bearings) and there would be insufficient lubrication on cold starts,
resulting in high thrust bearing wear. Modern synthetics don't have this
problem.
Steve - 10 Dec 2006 01:03 GMT
>  It's only when
> temperatures are above 40°F that they recommend against. It becomes a
> much bigger issue when the temps are in the 90's and the engine has
> accumulated dust and lawn debris in the cooling fins. Under those
> conditions putting the same oil as is in your car is almost guaranteed
> to fry the rings.

Not if its a synthetic oil. I've been running synthetic 10W30 in a 1994
Briggs 6-horse lawnmower engine since it was new, changing the oil once
per year. It doesn't use ANY oil between changes. And I don't exactly
live in a cold climate (Austin TX) and mowing season runs from late
February through November (into December counting leaf-mulching season)
so that little engine's got a LOT of hours on it.
Richard - 16 Dec 2006 21:05 GMT
>>  It's only when
>> temperatures are above 40°F that they recommend against. It becomes a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> February through November (into December counting leaf-mulching season)
> so that little engine's got a LOT of hours on it.

Matches my experience as well Steve.  I live in Houston and have been
using Mobil 10w-30 in mine as well- 6.5HP B&S since 1996 without any
problems.

Richard
Doc Holliday - 10 Dec 2006 13:31 GMT
Brent that is some great information. And it also the essence of why
lubrication and additives are so "critical" to old and new
applications. Do you have further info regarding lubrication
applications regarding older equipment as it relates to upgrades vs
detriments as "contrast" to modern lubrication properties / data base.
I've got an older Mitsubishi track loader (I think it is a BS3F) I need
to service and I'm stumped on info regarding proper and or upgrading
lubrication, specifically drive line.

Thanks,
Hollis

> > > A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the
> > > rings have lost their tension.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Brent P - 10 Dec 2006 17:42 GMT
> Brent that is some great information.

I think you have the attributions confused... that was someone else
posting about lubricant properities.
Steve - 15 Dec 2006 22:22 GMT
>>Brent that is some great information.
>
> I think you have the attributions confused... that was someone else
> posting about lubricant properities.

And what he posted was rubbish to boot.
Doc Holliday - 10 Dec 2006 13:36 GMT
Have you considered the thermostat might be whacko or maybe the block
is "Air Locked" and the thermostat may not be getting heat convected to
it because it doesn't have water present "air locked" or around it to
convect and or sense the heat the engine is producing. ie the
thermostat id issolated or insulated by air and can nor sense the heat.
So it never opens.

"Probably "NOT" but worth the mention.

Hollis

> Hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Any help is much appreciated
> Bob
Doc Holliday - 10 Dec 2006 13:39 GMT
Have you considered the thermostat might be whacko or maybe the block
is "Air Locked" and the thermostat may not be getting heat convected to

it because it doesn't have water present "air locked" or around it to
convect and or sense the heat the engine is producing. ie the
thermostat is isolated or insulated by air and can nor sense the heat.
So it never opens.

"Probably "NOT" but worth the mention.

Hollis

> Hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Any help is much appreciated
> Bob
delon - 17 Dec 2006 14:43 GMT
cheap checks are remove the oil filler cap and sniff the oil does it
have a burnt sort of carbony smell ? also now youve changed the
radiator keep an eye on the coolant (water) level if you are still
loseing water then this would suggest a blown head gasket or worst case
cracked or wharped cylinder head or block, but you would have to be
pretty unlucky to have these. Chances are it will be ok. Best regards

Signature

delon

http://www.automotiveforums.com

 
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