Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2006
How to diagnose any possible engine damage from overheating
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bagarow@yahoo.com - 07 Dec 2006 13:36 GMT Hi
We have an Honda Odyssey minivan with an Aluminum engine. My spouse had an animal hit that caused some front end damage (bumper etc). It also damaged the radiator to leak and she drove the vehicle (normal town driving 30-50 mphs speeds) for about another 150 miles over 3-4 days. When I came back from an out of town trip, i found no hot air was being blown into the passenger compartment even with the heat setting being high. I checked the coolant level in the radiator and could not see any coolant on top of the fins inside (although the overflow tank still showed the coolant level between MIN and MAX). Looking through the front grill, I saw the radiator fins had been damaged. I started to drive it to the body shop but in about 4-5 miles, the temperature indicator went 75% of the way up. At that point I stopped and called in the tow truck.
Is there a way to tell if the engine suffered any damage, especially since the van has an Aluminum engine? Is there any diagnostic tests that I could get done to figure this out?
Any help is much appreciated Bob
N8N - 07 Dec 2006 14:18 GMT > Hi > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Any help is much appreciated > Bob Pressure test the cooling system after repairing the radiator. This will tell you if you've blown a head gasket. Now to see if you've damaged any rings etc. you're just going to have to drive it and see if oil consumption remains reasonable.
nate
Donald Lewis - 07 Dec 2006 17:35 GMT >Hi > >We have an Honda Odyssey minivan Year please? 4 or 6 cyl?
> with an Aluminum engine. My spouse had >an animal hit that caused some front end damage (bumper etc). It also [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >since the van has an Aluminum engine? Is there any diagnostic tests >that I could get done to figure this out? Is the "check engine" light on? If it is, and if the code that was set is for "engine coolant temperature out of normal range," a GOOD scan tool can pull a "freeze-frame" and tell you what the temperature reading was at the time the code was set.
A five gas analyzer can be used to test for the presence of hydrocarbons or carbon monxide in the cooling system which may catch a head gasket problem not otherwise apparent yet.
The Honda 4 cyl engine is pretty rugged. All aluminum is actually MORE rugged construction than cast iron block/aluminum head construction.
Don www.donsautomotive.com
>Any help is much appreciated >Bob bagarow@yahoo.com - 07 Dec 2006 22:26 GMT > Year please? 4 or 6 cyl? It is a 05 Odyssey EX. It is a V6.
Thanks Bob
Steve - 08 Dec 2006 00:22 GMT > Is there a way to tell if the engine suffered any damage, especially > since the van has an Aluminum engine? Is there any diagnostic tests > that I could get done to figure this out? A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the rings have lost their tension. A cooling system pressure test will tell if the block and/or head has warped allowing the head gasket to leak.
If it passes those, it should be OK.
Brent P - 08 Dec 2006 04:44 GMT > A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the > rings have lost their tension. Actually Nate is right, drive it and see.... Having delt with a car that had been overheated, I did a compression test and everything was fine. Some miles later it had hellish blowby... The rings had given up after I did the compression test and repaired the problems.
jim - 08 Dec 2006 12:26 GMT > > A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the > > rings have lost their tension. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Some miles later it had hellish blowby... The rings had given up after I > did the compression test and repaired the problems. Yes, this is due to glazing of modern oil additives on the rings under extreme heat conditions. Briggs and Stratton has done studies that document this phenomenon. They recommend against using any modern automotive oils in their small air-cooled engines for this reason. Under the right conditions (hot summer day, dust and lawn debris on cooling fins or restricting airflow, etc.) using modern automotive oil versus the recommended straight weight oil can make the difference of a lawn mower's rings lasting 10 minutes or 10 years. Changing the oil right away after an overheating incident is a good idea.
-jim
drew300 - 08 Dec 2006 21:53 GMT Since it's an automatic, with water cooling, maybe see / smell if the tranny fluid is burnt. Probably not, but it's a cheap check
 Signature drew300
http://www.automotiveforums.com
Steve - 08 Dec 2006 23:13 GMT >>>A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the >>>rings have lost their tension. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > document this phenomenon. They recommend against using any modern > automotive oils in their small air-cooled engines for this reason Now you talk about "myth and legends..." oils and small air-cooled engines are ripe territory for that. "Never use a multi-grade oil in a lawnmower- it'll coke and glaze and cause failure!" (probably true in the early days of multi-grade oils, actually, but many oils made specifically for small air-cooled engines these days are multi-grade). "Never run ANY automotive oil" was another myth, as was "never run a detergent oil in an air-cooled engine." Completely bogus. The main thing is to run the right GRADE, and far too many people think an air-cooled engine needs uber-thick oil. Briggs (and many other) small engines are splash lubricated, and too thick an oil simply won't lubricate them fully until they're very hot. Most small engines recommend SAE 30 or SAE 10W30 oil, not 50-weight. They're lawnmowers, not radial airplane engines!
jim - 09 Dec 2006 02:52 GMT > >>>A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the > >>>rings have lost their tension. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > engines are ripe territory for that. "Never use a multi-grade oil in a > lawnmower- it'll coke and glaze and cause failure!" Here's a typical Briggs & Stratton Oil Recommendation that comes with the small engines they sell I quote:
"Air cooled engines run hotter than automotive engines. Use of multi-viscosity oils (10W-30, etc.) above 40° F (4° C) will result in high oil consumption and possible engine damage. Check oil level more frequently if using these types of oils."
Of course they put this in fine print so they can sell a new lawnmower engine to the ignorant every couple of years. Their recommendation for the best oil for some of their hottest running little engines is to use straight weight API type SC which is I believe what cars used back in the 50's and pretty much has no additives. They have different recommendations for different engines but the main issue is temperature. Snow blowers can use modern automotive oils (10w30 5w30) without problems. They don't say never use multi-grade oils. It's only when temperatures are above 40°F that they recommend against. It becomes a much bigger issue when the temps are in the 90's and the engine has accumulated dust and lawn debris in the cooling fins. Under those conditions putting the same oil as is in your car is almost guaranteed to fry the rings.
If you want to claim they are lying go ahead, but it is not a myth that they have studied this extensively and they do make these recommendations.
-jim
> (probably true in > the early days of multi-grade oils, actually, but many oils made [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > fully until they're very hot. Most small engines recommend SAE 30 or SAE > 10W30 oil, not 50-weight. They're lawnmowers, not radial airplane engines! hls - 09 Dec 2006 13:35 GMT Do they say anything about synthetics? I bought a new Briggs mower a couple of years ago, and changed to synthetic after the engine was fully run in. (I bought it from my sister, who found she couldnt handle it..She had lost the warantee receipt and other documentation)
Soon after I shifted to Mobil 1, it started using oil disastrously. When I talked to the garden shop representative at Lowes, he said that Briggs had warned against using synthetics just for this reason. He suggested that if I rebuilt the engine using high quality chrome rings, it might hold.
I honed the cylinder, and rebuilt it using standard Briggs and Statton parts, and it worked okay for a short while. Then went back to burning oil like crazy. Gave that POS away. In the future, I will be a bit more careful with warranty documents AND with oil changes.
jim - 09 Dec 2006 14:46 GMT > Do they say anything about synthetics? I bought a new Briggs mower a > couple of years ago, and changed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > future, I will be a bit more careful with > warranty documents AND with oil changes. You need to read the documentation that comes with your particular engine. They do recommend synthetics, multi-grade, high detergent or whatever in some of their engines. The issue is temperature and their engines are not all built with the same design. For a push mower with a small engine how deep the grass you are cutting can be a significant factor in how hot the cylinder walls get. As you load down the engine you create more heat and less capacity to cool the engine - so it obviously gets hotter. With modern automotive oils at some point where the engine reaches a certain threshold temperature the rings seem to go downhill pretty rapidly. I would think that temperature threshold point would be higher for synthetics, but if they recommend against synthetics in some particular engine than it is probably not high enough for the worst case (hottest) scenario.
So you buy a new lawnmower and when it's new its got the right oil in it. So a year or 3 later you decide to change the oil one spring. And you put the same stuff you put in your car in the lawnmower. And you mow the lawn for a couple of months and everything seems to be fine. Then along comes that brutally hot spell in August and you think you'll wait till it cools off to mow the lawn, but it doesn't cool off and so you get out there and mow your knee high grass. The next thing you know your lawnmower is an oil burner - which is good because the mosquito's were starting to get really bad :^)
When you read that someone has an auto engine that overheats and immediately after the incident it has good compression, but that it rapidly degenerates into poor compression soon after driving it for a while you have to suspect that the same phenomenon is at work there.
-jim
hls - 09 Dec 2006 14:54 GMT > You need to read the documentation that comes with your particular > engine. That was my first mistake..no documentation
> So you buy a new lawnmower and when it's new its got the right oil in > it. So a year or 3 later you decide to change the oil one spring. You did not understand my post. I ran the original oil until the engine had a chance to break in...Estimate 5-10 hours... Not an old engine at all.
After rebuild, the engine probably ran another 5-10 hours before it lapsed into fumigation mode.
The engine did not last one season.
jim - 09 Dec 2006 18:00 GMT > > You need to read the documentation that comes with your particular > > engine. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You did not understand my post. I ran the original oil until the engine had > a chance to break in...Estimate 5-10 hours... Not an old engine at all. No actually you misunderstood my meaning. I didn't mean that is what you in particular did. I meant that is what people in general do. You probably would have gotten atleast 5 years out of it if you hadn't changed oil at all.
> After rebuild, the engine probably ran another 5-10 hours before it lapsed > into fumigation mode. > > The engine did not last one season. My push mower is about 10 years old and doesn't burn any oil. I have never had to add any and have changed the oil maybe 3 times.
-jim
Steve - 10 Dec 2006 01:02 GMT > You did not understand my post. I ran the original oil until the engine had > a chance to break in...Estimate 5-10 hours... Not an old engine at all. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The engine did not last one season. If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. While those *used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been complete crap since the 80s. The 5-horse and larger engines are still quite good- far better than the imports IMO. But if you need a 3-horse class mower, get one with a Honda or Tecumseh engine.
jim - 10 Dec 2006 01:39 GMT > > You did not understand my post. I ran the original oil until the engine had > > a chance to break in...Estimate 5-10 hours... Not an old engine at all. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > *used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been > complete crap since the 80s. The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better its the oil you put in them that is not holding up. If you put the same type oil you put in them in the 50's and 60's they last longer than they used to.
>The 5-horse and larger engines are still > quite good- Briggs says synthetics are OK for most of these engines - RTFM.
-jim
Steve - 15 Dec 2006 22:18 GMT >>If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. While those >>*used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been >>complete crap since the 80s. > > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better You're talking out your ear. They've cheapened so many parts in the 4-horse and under engines that its not even funny.
> its the oil you > put in them that is not holding up. Then how come my 1958 slant-carb 2.5 horse Briggs still runs great, mr know-nothing-at-all?
You REALLY need to actually open up a few of these engines before you mouth off.
jim - 16 Dec 2006 16:08 GMT > >>If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. While those > >>*used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You're talking out your ear. They've cheapened so many parts in the > 4-horse and under engines that its not even funny. The part we were discussing is the block. There isn't much difference in the design.
> > its the oil you > > put in them that is not holding up. > > Then how come my 1958 slant-carb 2.5 horse Briggs still runs great, mr > know-nothing-at-all? The carb has changed so has just about anything you can see on the outside.
> You REALLY need to actually open up a few of these engines before you > mouth off. What would I find different inside? It's not like they had any thing more than the bare essentials inside there 50 years ago. What I'm I going to find that they have eliminated or changed significantly inside. In general the internal parts are cast and machined to more consistent level of quality and accuracy than they were 50 years ago. And yes, the engines are probably built lighter and cheaper than they were 50 years ago. If a manufacturer builds an engine for $100 that will last 10 years and builds another of the same size for $200 that will last 50 years today's consumer will buy the $100 engine every time so manufacturers respond to consumer demand and are not going to build a product no one will buy. If you had to buy a push lawnmower in 1958 dollars adjusted for inflation your lawnmower would cost close to $1000 dollars today. Or put another way, if you go to Wal-mart and look at what a cheap push-mower cost today and adjust that cost to 1958 dollars that mower would have sold for less than $10 in 1958.
And besides your ignorance of the impact of changing economics you also seem to be completely oblivious to the change in government regulations that contribute to some of the changes that you are seeing in the design (particularly that carb of which you seem to be so fond).
But all of that has very little to do with the present discussion (other than to establish your incapacity to reason well). If you buy a Briggs motor and you do not use the recommended oil you do risk damaging the engine and ending its life prematurely. And the reason for that is that some of the additives used in modern automotive oils simply do not hold up when they are subjected to temperatures above a certain point. And some small air-cooled engines can and do get the oil that hot, which is much hotter than you ever would get the oil in a normal properly functioning automobile. If you do use an oil that can take the heat, and in every other way maintain the engine properly you can reasonably expect the engine to outlast just about every other part on a modern push-mower. That is, the wheels are all going to fall off, the handle break, and all the other cheap plastic and stamped metal components disintegrate long before you have any problems with the engine.
-jim
hls - 16 Dec 2006 17:07 GMT >> > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better Lacking statistics, this is a matter of opinion. I suspect the metallurgy is worse, but cant prove it
jim - 16 Dec 2006 20:03 GMT > >> > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better > > Lacking statistics, this is a matter of opinion. I suspect the metallurgy > is worse, but cant prove it I work in the metal casting industry and I can assure you the foundry that cast your block has got stacks and stacks of statistics that say you are wrong. Statistically they are better made. Statistically, the block you get today, the metal is going to be poured at closer to the ideal temperature and closer to the ideal alloy composition than it was 50 years ago. Statistically the parts are going to be machined so that they can be held to closer tolerance than the were 50 years ago. When you buy a new engine they burn less oil to begin with then they did 50 years ago. There are a lot of things on your lawn mower that are cheap and not designed to last, but that doesn't have any thing to do with the problem you had. Most push mowers sold today have no provision for adjusting the carburetor. Just how long do you think a '50's lawn mower would last with that feature?
-jim
hls - 16 Dec 2006 21:53 GMT >> >> > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > -jim Okay, bottom line...what is the reason you think this mower gave such a short run?
jim - 16 Dec 2006 22:43 GMT > >> >> > The engines aren't any worse in fact there made better > >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Okay, bottom line...what is the reason you think this mower gave such a > short run? I already told you if you hadn't changed the oil at all the engine would have lasted 5 years. If you never even ever checked the oil it probably would have lasted 3 or 4 years. Everything you said points to lubrication failure. Next time why don't you try extra virgin olive oil at least it will smell good when you burn her up. -jim
hls - 16 Dec 2006 22:51 GMT > I already told you if you hadn't changed the oil at all the engine would > have lasted 5 years. If you never even ever checked the oil it probably > would have lasted 3 or 4 years. Everything you said points to > lubrication failure. Next time why don't you try extra virgin olive oil > at least it will smell good when you burn her up. > -jim Yes, you said that, but it doesnt seem to fit
Steve - 17 Dec 2006 01:31 GMT > I already told you if you hadn't changed the oil at all the engine would > have lasted 5 years. If you never even ever checked the oil it probably > would have lasted 3 or 4 years. Everything you said points to > lubrication failure. Next time why don't you try extra virgin olive oil > at least it will smell good when you burn her up. > -jim You have GOT to be the biggest twit to show up on here since Parker left. Stick to weighing Fram filters to prove they catch more dirt.
Scott Dorsey - 16 Dec 2006 23:20 GMT > I work in the metal casting industry and I can assure you the foundry >that cast your block has got stacks and stacks of statistics that say [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >you buy a new engine they burn less oil to begin with then they did 50 >years ago. Assuming we are talking about US-made castings, this is true. HOWEVER, I will say that the tighter tolerances possible today are not always a good thing. When tolerances were sloppier, there was a tendency for engineers to over-reinforce parts of castings that were going to be machined, and today there isn't that need. You get lighter castings, and statistically speaking the worst ones aren't any worse than they ever were, but the best ones aren't as good.
Secondly, having tighter tolerances makes it possible to design stuff that only works with those tighter tolerances. Whereas fifty years ago engines would be designed to work with comparatively wide ring tolerances, today they are often designed to work with more tight tolerances. The result is better efficiency and less friction but when the cylinders start wearing, problems appear faster.
> There are a lot of things on your lawn mower that are cheap and not >designed to last, but that doesn't have any thing to do with the problem >you had. Most push mowers sold today have no provision for adjusting the >carburetor. Just how long do you think a '50's lawn mower would last >with that feature? A more serious issue, though, is that a lot of stuff that used to be cast in US foundries with good quality control are now being made offshore in some places where quality control is agricultural in nature. They cast parts as fast as they can with whatever metal they have, and just like apples or peas, they sort them into grades A, B, and C depending on how they came out.
I won't mention any names here, but a lot of US manufacturers are going to offshore manufacture because the customers want products that are cheap, not necessarily products that are good. I recently saw a 2KVA (and that is optimistic) generator built by a company called Standard, which had the worst material used in the block I have ever seen. It makes the Trabant engine look like high quality in comparison. This is steel I wouldn't even want my steam iron made out of. Needless to say, the reliability of the generator is questionable. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
jim - 17 Dec 2006 01:20 GMT > Assuming we are talking about US-made castings, this is true. We are talking about Briggs and stratton their castings are made in US.
> HOWEVER, > I will say that the tighter tolerances possible today are not always a > good thing. When tolerances were sloppier, there was a tendency for > engineers to over-reinforce parts of castings that were going to be > machined, Over-reinforce? We are talking about an increased machining accuracy of only a few thousands. the amount of machining stock added to a casting doesn't have much affect on the end result as it gets machined off.
> and today there isn't that need. You get lighter castings, > and statistically speaking the worst ones aren't any worse than they > ever were, but the best ones aren't as good. And why would that be true? What would be the point of machining more accurately if the worst gets worse and the best aren't as good? Sounds like something right out of Alice in Wonderland.
> Secondly, having tighter tolerances makes it possible to design stuff > that only works with those tighter tolerances. Whereas fifty years ago > engines would be designed to work with comparatively wide ring tolerances, > today they are often designed to work with more tight tolerances. The > result is better efficiency and less friction but when the cylinders start > wearing, problems appear faster. That's doesn't make sense why would less friction cause the cylinders wear rapidly. There are a number of things that can cause modern push mower engines to deteriorate rapidly. For instance, in an effort to comply with cleaner air standards small engines are designed to run leaner with no provision for mixture adjustment. That alone pretty much guarantees they are going to go down hill pretty fast once they start to loose a little compression. Also in the old days when the engine had points if you hit something with the mower and the flywheel key sheared a little the engine stopped running and you had to fix it. With the modern ignitions the engine doesn't loose spark and can just continue to run with the ignition out of time. Continuing to operate a mower with incorrect timing can seriously shorten the engines life span. There are other external components that are not as durable. But none of that has anything to do with the quality of what's inside and in particular nothing to do with the quality of the metal.
> > There are a lot of things on your lawn mower that are cheap and not > >designed to last, but that doesn't have any thing to do with the problem [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > apples or peas, they sort them into grades A, B, and C depending on how > they came out. I believe Briggs and Stratton casts all their engines here in the US so we don't need to muddy the waters with that little fairy tail. There ae plenty of good castings made outside the US.
> I won't mention any names here, but a lot of US manufacturers are going > to offshore manufacture because the customers want products that are cheap, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > my steam iron made out of. Needless to say, the reliability of the generator > is questionable. Steel engine block? - well that is a new one on me.
-jim
> --scott > -- > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Steve - 17 Dec 2006 01:37 GMT >>Assuming we are talking about US-made castings, this is true. > > We are talking about Briggs and stratton their castings are made in US. Are you SURE.... better check all your facts....
Scott Dorsey - 17 Dec 2006 13:56 GMT >> A more serious issue, though, is that a lot of stuff that used to be cast >> in US foundries with good quality control are now being made offshore in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >we don't need to muddy the waters with that little fairy tail. There ae >plenty of good castings made outside the US. There are some excellent castings made outside the US, from folks like Honda and Husqvarna. There are, as I point out, also some pretty dreadful ones.
>> I won't mention any names here, but a lot of US manufacturers are going >> to offshore manufacture because the customers want products that are cheap, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Steel engine block? - well that is a new one on me. Well, it sure wasn't cast iron.... the stuff was outrageously soft. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Steve - 17 Dec 2006 01:28 GMT >>>>If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. While those >>>>*used* to be very good engines back in the 50s and 60s, they've been [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the design. > We're discussing the block, rings, piston, crank, conrod, bearings.
>You REALLY need to actually open up a few of these engines before you >>mouth off. > > What would I find different inside? It's not like they had any thing > more than the bare essentials inside there 50 years ago. What I'm I > going to find that they have eliminated or changed significantly inside. The block material today is inferior (softer). The assembly quality today is horrible.
> In general the internal parts are cast and machined to more consistent > level of quality and accuracy than they were 50 years ago. Not in a small Briggs&Stratton, they aren't.
> But all of that has very little to do with the present discussion > (other than to establish your incapacity to reason well). *MY* capacity to reason well? Pot, kettle, black! You're the one who thinks you can tell how dirty an oil filter is by how heavy it feels. You're also the one who failed to catch the fact that, while you state that it is the OIL that kills modern small engines not that they're made like crap, *I* pointed out that I have a 1958 Briggs running happily on Mobil 1 10w30, but hls couldn't get a modern one to last more than a few hours on any oil.
And you question *my* capacity to reason well? Sheesh.
jim - 17 Dec 2006 02:16 GMT > while you state > that it is the OIL that kills modern small engines No I said it is high temperature that destroys the lubricating capacity of some oils.
> not that they're made > like crap, *I* pointed out that I have a 1958 Briggs running happily on > Mobil 1 10w30, That only indicates that the engine does not run as hot. they don't all run at the same temperature B&S does recommend different oils for different engines and the essential difference is the maximum operating temperature characteristic of a given model.
> but hls couldn't get a modern one to last more than a few > hours on any oil. It ran fine before he changed the oil. He was told by the service department that B&S recommended against using that type of oil in that engine. You can't infer anything at all from using the same oil in some other model of engine. He never tried to use the recommended oil. Yet he blames the manufacturer whose recommendations he ignored.
My push mower has gone 10 years using the recommended straight weight oil and I have never had to add any oil between changes. Many people get many years of service out of these engines without even knowing they have oil in them.
-jim
hls - 17 Dec 2006 09:25 GMT > It ran fine before he changed the oil. He was told by the service > department that B&S recommended against using that type of oil in that > engine. You can't infer anything at all from using the same oil in some > other model of engine. He never tried to use the recommended oil. Yet he > blames the manufacturer whose recommendations he ignored. Dont put words in my mouth. I did not see anything saying not to use the synthetic...I was told that after the failure, and that was word of mouth.
When the engine was rebuilt, I went back to standard dino oil...The rebuild didnt last longer than a few hours...maybe 8-10.
jim - 17 Dec 2006 14:55 GMT > > It ran fine before he changed the oil. He was told by the service > > department that B&S recommended against using that type of oil in that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > synthetic...I was told that > after the failure, and that was word of mouth. Whether you were aware of it or not - you ignored their recommendation. And it would seem even now you prefer to preserve your ignorance rather than find out what exactly what is/was recommended or why it is recommended. Instead you prefer to make up facts out of thin air about metallurgy and machining methods to explain what happened.
> When the engine was rebuilt, I went back to standard dino oil...The rebuild > didnt last longer than > a few hours...maybe 8-10. Well, standard dino oil was not likely what they recommended for that engine either. Whatever you put in the second time may have been even worse than what you put in the first time. What originally came with the engine was probably a synthetic. Briggs uses their own brand of synthetic that they claim is especially formulated to withstand much higher temps than other synthetics. And Briggs doesn't say use only their oil (I don't think they legally can). What they do say is if you choose to put 10w30 in the engine make sure you check the oil often. These engines will run a long long time even when they are at the point of adding a cup of oil with each tank of gas.
If you had asked the dealer or any place that sells and services push mowers with Briggs engines, you would find out that many people get years of use from the same engine and they do no maintenance at all. In fact, that is the targeted consumer for these cheapo mowers. They are designed to be used and discarded and the engine will generally last as long (usually longer) than the rest of the mower. It's likely that the carb has no adjustment for your engine so after your rebuild it was probably running extremely lean which contributes to making the engine run even hotter than it did before. Everything you have said indicates that heat was the root cause of your problems. And probably by the time you were done with your rebuild the grass was getting pretty tall which doesn't make it run any cooler either. The fact that someone else has an engine that doesn't run quite as hot and thus survives proves nothing at all about what happened to your engine. I suspect that there are thousands of purchasers that bought the same mower at the same time you did and who have done nothing at all in maintenance still have a running lawn mower. But getting back to the original poster's question and my answer to it. If you had put what most people are using in their cars today (5w30 petroleum oil) the type of failure you experienced in that type of engine would have been almost a sure thing. That's because the critical temperature where that type of catastrophic failure occurs is lower for standard 5w30 than it is for 10w30, which in turn is lower than a synthetic like Mobil 1. The OP didn't say what type of oil he uses. but in any case changing the oil after a overheating incident is cheap insurance just in case the oil reached the critical point where serious engine damage like you experienced can occur. That doesn't mean that high temperature definitely was the cause of your engine failure, but the facts as you presented them, point to nothing else.
-jim
hls - 17 Dec 2006 15:51 GMT Well, Jim, it is clear that you havent a clue what went on, and just want to demean me..
I make mistakes just like everybody else, but listening to you will not be another of them.
hls - 10 Dec 2006 08:15 GMT >> You did not understand my post. I ran the original oil until the engine >> had [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > If it was a 3.5-horse or less Briggs, that's not surprising. Well, that is exactly the engine in question. It had a noticeable ring ridge after the few hours it ran. I removed the ridge, and felt that the aluminum seemed to be awfully soft. In fact, I had some misgivings about honing it at all, but did anyway...Tried to give it a reasonable finish.
Steve - 15 Dec 2006 22:20 GMT >>>You did not understand my post. I ran the original oil until the engine >>>had [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > about > honing it at all, but did anyway...Tried to give it a reasonable finish. And as you discovered, its impossible. Sad to say it, but the smallest Briggs engines of today are truly awful. I hate to see a great American company go that way. I just hope the MBA-induced product rot doesn't spread to the rest of their engine line, or my next lawnmower may be a stinking H*nda.
Steve W. - 15 Dec 2006 23:37 GMT >>>> You did not understand my post. I ran the original oil until the >>>> engine had [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > spread to the rest of their engine line, or my next lawnmower may be a > stinking H*nda. Keep in mind that the Vanguards and the OHV engines are Mitsubishi
 Signature Steve W. Near Cooperstown, New York
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, BBQ in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming: "WOO HOO what a ride!"
Steve - 16 Dec 2006 03:43 GMT >> And as you discovered, its impossible. Sad to say it, but the smallest >> Briggs engines of today are truly awful. I hate to see a great [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Keep in mind that the Vanguards and the OHV engines are Mitsubishi I thought it was Kawasaki, but about the same difference. The only things left that are any good are the big side-valves. I/C and Commercial series. Or any of the few million pre-1980s ones still out there running (and running, and running, and running....)
Scott Dorsey - 09 Dec 2006 16:18 GMT >Do they say anything about synthetics? I bought a new Briggs mower a >couple of years ago, and changed [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >this reason. He suggested that if I rebuilt >the engine using high quality chrome rings, it might hold. Most synthetic oils have very good flow characteristics. This is a good thing in a circulated oil system, but it is a major problem with engines that use splash-plate lubrication. The oil runs off the plate before it has a chance to splash it up anywhere, and the end result is poor lubrication.
There ARE synthetic oils designed for small engines, which are a bit more sticky. They have the adhesion of a petroleum oil, while having the high breakdown temperature of a synthetic. Royal Purple makes one that seems to be good; we use it in generators where the engines may sit for several years without more than an occasional ten-minute test run. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Steve - 10 Dec 2006 01:01 GMT >>Do they say anything about synthetics? I bought a new Briggs mower a >>couple of years ago, and changed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > has a chance to splash it up anywhere, and the end result is poor > lubrication. My understanding is that this was a problem with EARLY synthetics, but was corrected years and years ago. Early synthetics exhibited the same problem in pressure-lubricated engines, but in a different way. The oil would drain out of vertical bearing gaps (namely the crankshaft thrust bearings) and there would be insufficient lubrication on cold starts, resulting in high thrust bearing wear. Modern synthetics don't have this problem.
Steve - 10 Dec 2006 01:03 GMT > It's only when > temperatures are above 40°F that they recommend against. It becomes a > much bigger issue when the temps are in the 90's and the engine has > accumulated dust and lawn debris in the cooling fins. Under those > conditions putting the same oil as is in your car is almost guaranteed > to fry the rings. Not if its a synthetic oil. I've been running synthetic 10W30 in a 1994 Briggs 6-horse lawnmower engine since it was new, changing the oil once per year. It doesn't use ANY oil between changes. And I don't exactly live in a cold climate (Austin TX) and mowing season runs from late February through November (into December counting leaf-mulching season) so that little engine's got a LOT of hours on it.
Richard - 16 Dec 2006 21:05 GMT >> It's only when >> temperatures are above 40°F that they recommend against. It becomes a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > February through November (into December counting leaf-mulching season) > so that little engine's got a LOT of hours on it. Matches my experience as well Steve. I live in Houston and have been using Mobil 10w-30 in mine as well- 6.5HP B&S since 1996 without any problems.
Richard
Doc Holliday - 10 Dec 2006 13:31 GMT Brent that is some great information. And it also the essence of why lubrication and additives are so "critical" to old and new applications. Do you have further info regarding lubrication applications regarding older equipment as it relates to upgrades vs detriments as "contrast" to modern lubrication properties / data base. I've got an older Mitsubishi track loader (I think it is a BS3F) I need to service and I'm stumped on info regarding proper and or upgrading lubrication, specifically drive line.
Thanks, Hollis
> > > A compression (or better yet, cylinder leak-down) test will tell if the > > > rings have lost their tension. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Brent P - 10 Dec 2006 17:42 GMT > Brent that is some great information. I think you have the attributions confused... that was someone else posting about lubricant properities.
Steve - 15 Dec 2006 22:22 GMT >>Brent that is some great information. > > I think you have the attributions confused... that was someone else > posting about lubricant properities. And what he posted was rubbish to boot.
Doc Holliday - 10 Dec 2006 13:36 GMT Have you considered the thermostat might be whacko or maybe the block is "Air Locked" and the thermostat may not be getting heat convected to it because it doesn't have water present "air locked" or around it to convect and or sense the heat the engine is producing. ie the thermostat id issolated or insulated by air and can nor sense the heat. So it never opens.
"Probably "NOT" but worth the mention.
Hollis
> Hi > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Any help is much appreciated > Bob Doc Holliday - 10 Dec 2006 13:39 GMT Have you considered the thermostat might be whacko or maybe the block is "Air Locked" and the thermostat may not be getting heat convected to
it because it doesn't have water present "air locked" or around it to convect and or sense the heat the engine is producing. ie the thermostat is isolated or insulated by air and can nor sense the heat. So it never opens.
"Probably "NOT" but worth the mention.
Hollis
> Hi > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Any help is much appreciated > Bob delon - 17 Dec 2006 14:43 GMT cheap checks are remove the oil filler cap and sniff the oil does it have a burnt sort of carbony smell ? also now youve changed the radiator keep an eye on the coolant (water) level if you are still loseing water then this would suggest a blown head gasket or worst case cracked or wharped cylinder head or block, but you would have to be pretty unlucky to have these. Chances are it will be ok. Best regards
 Signature delon
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