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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2006Auto body repair question - want answers before buying a car
Hello everyone! I'm hoping that you can answer a question for me. I'm looking at purchasing a 2004 CR-V from a Toyota dealer; I've performed most of the due diligence thus far, and now will be taking it to an independent mechanic before the final purchase. During my carfax search, it came to light that the car had an accident. About $4,100 damage. I was able to see the police report, pictures of the damage as well as the auto body invoice which detailed all the work done. Someone backed into it while in a parking lot...the owner was in the mall! They replaced skins on the rear hatchback door, the bumper, the rear quarter panel as well as some other cosmetic parts. The previous owner said that there was no frame damage, however I did notice 2 hours of labour to put it on the rack and take it off. There was no other mention of frame work on the invoice. A friend of mine told me that they always put a car on the rack to measure it and ensure no frame damage was done, and that the 2 hours of labour seems reasonable for that. In other words, he doesn't believe any frame damage was done. So, my question is this; how accurate is that statement, and secondly, when the independent mechanic (who specializes in inspecting used cars) checks it, how easy will it be to spot any potential frame damage? I checked the door seals and they are all even. All doors open/close fine. Any advice would be appreciated! > Any advice would be appreciated! Being naturally leery, I would go a bit further with this one. One doesnt normally think about a parking lot accident messing up the body frame integrity, but it could happen. Modern frame work can usually return even a rather badly damaged auto to proper condition. Do you wonder why the original owner got rid of this vehicle that was basically two years old? I do. I would contact the original owner, if possible. Or, I wouldnt buy it until I had had it examined by a competent frame shop. > > Any advice would be appreciated! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Modern frame work can usually return even a rather badly damaged auto to > proper condition. That statement is very misleading. What exactly do you define as a proper condition? What a competent frame shop can do is return the frame to a SAFE condition to where it will have just as much strength as the original, and will have the same dimensions as the original, and to where the doors will fit properly and the seams all match. BUT it will NEVER BE THE SAME AS BEFORE. When you pull off the fenders and bumpers and such and crawl around underneith it your going to still see the damage, it won't perhaps be obvious to the typical soccer mom, but if you know what it's supposed to look like, it will stick out like a sore thumb. > Do you wonder why the original owner got rid of this vehicle that was > basically two years old? I do. > I would contact the original owner, if possible. Or, I wouldnt buy it until > I had had it examined by > a competent frame shop. It is all in the pricing. Unfortunately being a Toyota I can guarentee that the dealer is going to be able to sell it for more than it's really worth, there are too many stupid people out there that see the name "Toyota" and they will go for it. This is a really poor risk in my opinion. Why don't you look for another 2 year old Toyota that has never been in an accident, there's plenty of them out there. Then at least when you pay the inflated price for it, the real worth is going to be closer to what you paid for it. Ted > BUT it will NEVER BE THE SAME AS BEFORE. I dont totally agree with your last statement, but many people are very gun shy on cars that have had to have collision repair, whether unibody or frame, and I appreciate your perspective. If you take your car to a small body shop where they only have Portapower jacks, or a simple frame tool, then you may well not get the job you want. There used to be a frame shop in my part of town in Houston, and those guys had spent an enormous amount of money to get the equipment to do the work. They could put vehicles, up to 18 wheelers, onto their machines and hydraulically restore them to essentially perfect alignment. Their work was impeccable as was their business reputation. Last time I was in town, I tried to go by for a visit, and they were no longer there. > Hello everyone! > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > done. Someone backed into it while in a parking lot...the owner was in > the mall! 4,100.00 may sound like a lot of money BUT with a newer vehicle and current prices on body work/parts isn't that bad. > They replaced skins on the rear hatchback door, the bumper, the rear > quarter panel as well as some other cosmetic parts. The previous owner [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > labour seems reasonable for that. In other words, he doesn't believe > any frame damage was done. 2 hours is about what it would take to put it on the rack and anchor it then check the measurements and take it back off the rack so I would say he is correct. With any collision work on a vehicle built as a unibody you want to rack it just to make sure nothing moved. There are some vehicles out there that even a small impact will damage them enough to declare them totaled. > So, my question is this; how accurate is that statement, and secondly, > when the independent mechanic (who specializes in inspecting used cars) > checks it, how easy will it be to spot any potential frame damage? That depends on what and where. unibody damage can be hard to find if it is hidden behind a panel. From your description I would guess that the hit was not enough to damage the unibody anyway. The skins were replaced because that was more cost effective than trying to iron them out, common on newer vehicles. > I checked the door seals and they are all even. All doors open/close > fine. > > Any advice would be appreciated!  SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York >They replaced skins on the rear hatchback door, the bumper, the rear >quarter panel as well as some other cosmetic parts. The previous owner >said that there was no frame damage, however I did notice 2 hours of >labour to put it on the rack and take it off. There was no other >mention of frame work on the invoice. Makes sense. With a car like this, it's probably cheaper just to replace the skins than to straighten them out. >A friend of mine told me that they always put a car on the rack to >measure it and ensure no frame damage was done, and that the 2 hours of >labour seems reasonable for that. In other words, he doesn't believe >any frame damage was done. It is absolutely true that they do always want to check to make sure that there is no frame damage, even with a low-speed collision like this. And two hours seems reasonable. >So, my question is this; how accurate is that statement, and secondly, >when the independent mechanic (who specializes in inspecting used cars) >checks it, how easy will it be to spot any potential frame damage? You cannot spot any potential frame damage without putting it up and making some pretty careful measurements (basically re-doing the two hours work listed above). Now, if they DID that before, either they didn't find anything, or they found something but the customer didn't want to pay to have it fixed. If the repair was done under insurance, almost certainly the lattter is not the case. And the fact that it was a low-speed collision makes it unlikely there was any frame damage anyway. I mean, it happens, but the odds are way in your favour. >I checked the door seals and they are all even. All doors open/close >fine. > >Any advice would be appreciated! Tell the owners that you have looked at the record, that you are worried about possible frame damage and they should knock the price down a couple thousand dollars. Be sure to mention that anybody else buying the car can see the same records. Never turn down an opportunity to use ANYTHING to help you dicker, even if it doesn't really matter. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Thanks everyone for your responses! I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond! To the first respondent; my interest is piqued in this vehicle because it is a rarity; fully loaded with a 5-speed manual. I hail from the UK where standard is the norm. While I don't mind automatic, my preference is to have a stick (I'm also quite disappointed that both Honda and Toyota have dropped the 5-speed option on the RAV4 and CR-V!) In one of the emails someone asked whether it was paid by insurance; yes, it was...so in reality, if the owner had paid for the repairs himself, I'm sure the bill would have been half that. I'm taking it to an independent mechanic who performs no repairs; he simply indentifies issues. I'll see what he says. I'm reticent to call the deal off completely if it was simply cosmetic. If I think back to cars I've had in the past, almost all of them had some sort of minor ding here and there...so If, however, there is even the slightest damage to the "frame" then I will void the contract immediately. An interesting point; with insurance rates increasing, more and more individuals will be repairing cars privately without an insurance claim, so will this not make it MORE difficult to find accidents on services such as carfax? > (I'm also quite disappointed that both > Honda and Toyota have dropped the 5-speed option on the RAV4 and CR-V!) =========== Lack of demand. I have two vehicles, one with 5 speed standard, the other automatic so I'm equally comfortable with either, but it is nice not to have to use the clutch. >Hello everyone! > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Any advice would be appreciated! Unless it's hard to find similar ones for a similar price why buy a 2 year old vehicle with $4100 of repairs and paint that may well no longer match in another two years. I'd have to be getting a super deal or it would have to be a hard to find vehicle before I'd waste any more time on it. Another important question to ask is the quality of the repairs, weather proper corrosion protection was applied, what quality of panels were used (oem or chinese replicas), the fitting of the panels-are the gaps consistent and is everything properly sealed up-think water leaks, the paint quality and if proper color matching was done, cheap paint will fade peel crack etc. Was proper paint prep done or can you see ugly lines where masking occured? Can you see sanding cross hatches through the paint? There are a lot of things you might not look for that would show in time or an expert eye would catch. If your serious on purchasing this vehicle i would not just get a mechanical inspection but have a body shop inspect the repair work. > Hello everyone! > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Any advice would be appreciated!
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