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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2006

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calculate diesel fuel consumption

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Florian Schaeffer - 19 Dec 2006 08:18 GMT
Hi

I found this helpfull doc: AVR-Based Fuel Consumption Gauge
http://www.lightner.net/lightner/bruce/Lightner-183.pdf

Now I want to calculate the consumption of my diesel car. I think this
should  be possible with the help of the engine load and speed (or other
values?). Unfortunately I do not know the calculation method. Can
someone help me?
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 PM: f.schaeffer<at gmx.de>

John_H - 19 Dec 2006 21:59 GMT
>I found this helpfull doc: AVR-Based Fuel Consumption Gauge
>http://www.lightner.net/lightner/bruce/Lightner-183.pdf
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>values?). Unfortunately I do not know the calculation method. Can
>someone help me?

The method won't work for a diesel since fuel consumption is
independent of airflow (unlike a gasoline engine).

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John H

Florian Schaeffer - 21 Dec 2006 06:19 GMT
John_H schrieb am 19.12.2006 22:59:

> The method won't work for a diesel since fuel consumption is
> independent of airflow (unlike a gasoline engine).

I know this facts. Therefore I look for another method. It must go, how
one sees at ScanGauge http://www.scangauge.com/

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Florian Schaeffer - 22 Dec 2006 07:14 GMT
Florian Schaeffer schrieb am 19.12.2006 09:18:

> Now I want to calculate the consumption of my diesel car.

I must ask again, because no one knows the answer. :-(
Is it possible to calculate the consumption with the engine speed (rpm)
and the knowing about the count of cylinders and the cylinder capacity?
Is the injected fuel quantity all times the same? And how much fuel was
injected in each cylinder on a 2500 ccm engine for example?

Thank you

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Kaz Kylheku - 22 Dec 2006 14:49 GMT
> Florian Schaeffer schrieb am 19.12.2006 09:18:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Is the injected fuel quantity all times the same? And how much fuel was
> injected in each cylinder on a 2500 ccm engine for example?

Do you think the same amount of fuel is needed to keep the engine at
2500 RPM in neutral as when climbing a hill at 2500 RPM, or driving on
a highway in the highest gear at 2500 RPM?

Don't you notice that you have to press the pedal differently in these
situations?

Are you stupid???
Florian Schaeffer - 22 Dec 2006 16:52 GMT
Kaz Kylheku schrieb am 22.12.2006 15:49:
*plonk*

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 PM: f.schaeffer<at gmx.de>

Kaz Kylheku - 22 Dec 2006 20:31 GMT
> Kaz Kylheku schrieb am 22.12.2006 15:49:
> *plonk*

That means something when it doesn't come from a pitiful moron.
Steve - 24 Dec 2006 00:08 GMT
> Florian Schaeffer schrieb am 19.12.2006 09:18:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Is it possible to calculate the consumption with the engine speed (rpm)
> and the knowing about the count of cylinders and the cylinder capacity?

No.

> Is the injected fuel quantity all times the same?

No.

> And how much fuel was
> injected in each cylinder on a 2500 ccm engine for example?

That depends on the load and the "throttle" position, among other things.
Mike Romain - 22 Dec 2006 17:14 GMT
There is no 'calculation' for that.

The only way to test it is to fill it up until you see the fuel, drive
it for most of the tank and fill it up to the same place as before.  You
then see how many miles that took you and how many gallons of fuel was
used for this mileage.

That will give you the mileage for 'that' particular tank full.  Each
tank full will vary radically according to even simple things like a
headwind or tailwind.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

> Hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
>   PM: f.schaeffer<at gmx.de>
Martin Underwood - 22 Dec 2006 18:23 GMT
Mike Romain wrote in message
458C126C.606C47C0@sympatico.ca:

> There is no 'calculation' for that.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> tank full will vary radically according to even simple things like a
> headwind or tailwind.

I've found that my car gives remarkably consistent fuel consumption
figures - as long as I drive in the same way - not varying by more than +/-
2 mpg from one tankful to the next. Some of that variation may be due to not
always filling up to the same point on successive tankfuls - different pumps
cut out at different levels in the filler pipe. Out of sympathy for cyclists
and motorbikes, I don't fill up so full that I can see the fuel in the pipe,
because spilled diesel is *slippy*. (I did once drove behind a car that was
gushing fuel from its filler cap on every left turn. The driver seemed
utterly indifferent when I flashed him and pointed out that spilled diesel -
if it was diesel rather than petrol - is a skidding hazard, that spilled
petrol is a fire hazard and that anyway he was wasting fuel, which is not to
be recommended at inflated UK prices.)

(All these figures are miles per UK gallon: multiply by 4/5 to get miles per
US gallon)

40 mpg    stop-start driving in heavy traffic: maximum 30 mpg but with
frequent stops and starts from rest or crawling forward in traffic jams

45 mpg    local journeys - max 15 miles, many T junctions, roundabouts
(traffic circles, rotaries) and traffic lights

52 mpg    long motorway journeys (fairly constant 60-80 mph)

58 mpg    long journeys around 50-60 mpg with few junctions or stops

My car (Peugeot 306 HDi) has averaged 50 mpg over its severn-year,
104,000-mile life so far. And thankfully the consumption shows no sign of
getting worse with age - once it levelled out ofter the car was run-in, it's
been remarkably constant since then.

Is the thread suggesting that there is no easy way of calculating
instantaneous fuel consumption with a diesel-engined car? Or is it that you
need to measure the rate at which diesel fuel is being consumed, rather than
inferring it from other parameters like engine revs, speed, gear? Because
I've driven plenty of diesel cars (eg VW Golf, Citroen C5) which have a
second-by-second display of fuel consumption and can also average this over
a journey.
Florian Schaeffer - 22 Dec 2006 22:00 GMT
Martin Underwood schrieb am 22.12.2006 19:23:
> Mike Romain wrote in message
> 458C126C.606C47C0@sympatico.ca:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> You then see how many miles that took you and how many gallons of
>> fuel was used for this mileage.

Thanks. That's what I know. By this way I get the average consumption
for the car.

> I've driven plenty of diesel cars (eg VW Golf, Citroen C5) which have a
> second-by-second display of fuel consumption and can also average this over
> a journey.

This is what I want to know: How to calculate a continuous
(approximated) value for the driving situation just in this time? As
said like the ScanGauge.

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Martin Underwood - 22 Dec 2006 22:13 GMT
Florian Schaeffer wrote in message
4v32rvF1a3r9lU1@mid.uni-berlin.de:

> Martin Underwood schrieb am 22.12.2006 19:23:
>> I've driven plenty of diesel cars (eg VW Golf, Citroen C5) which
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> (approximated) value for the driving situation just in this time? As
> said like the ScanGauge.

Well I presume that these cars have a fuel flow meter. I hadn't realised
that you could get the instantaneous fuel consumption in a petrol/gasoline
engine *without* having a fuel flow meter.

From the information about ScanGauge it looks as if many cars have some sort
of information socket under the dashboard that devices such as ScanGauge can
connect to. I wonder if the cars which have it use a flow meter.
Kaz Kylheku - 23 Dec 2006 04:41 GMT
> I hadn't realised that you could get the instantaneous fuel consumption in a petrol/gasoline
> engine *without* having a fuel flow meter.

A fuel-injected engine is run by a management which determines the
instantaneous amount of fuel to squirt via the fuel injectors, based on
inputs such as airflow and the concentration of oxygen in the exhaust.
Martin Underwood - 23 Dec 2006 16:14 GMT
Kaz Kylheku wrote in message
1166848902.632500.187970@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:

>> I hadn't realised that you could get the instantaneous fuel
>> consumption in a petrol/gasoline engine *without* having a fuel flow
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> on inputs such as airflow and the concentration of oxygen in the
> exhaust.

Yes, but the amount of fuel flowing past a fixed point (eg in the line
between the tank and injectors) will be the same as the sum of the amounts
going down all the injectors - fuel doesn't get created or destroyed!

Presumably you *have* to use a flow meter if you have a carburettor engine
or a mechanical injection engine, and you *can* use either flow meter or
per-injector fuel-flow data from the engine-management system with
electronically-controlled injection (and the answers should be identical in
either case).

If you know the rate at which fuel is being consumed (millilitres/second)
and the speed of the car (miles/hour), then dividing one by the other gives
distance per unit volume (miles/gallon) or volume per unit distance
(litres/100 km).

When I drove a diesel car with a fuel consumption readout, I was surprised
at how little the consumption varied depending on what gear the car was in -
is this normal with diesel rather than petrol engines?
HLS@nospam.nix - 27 Dec 2006 21:42 GMT
> When I drove a diesel car with a fuel consumption readout, I was surprised
> at how little the consumption varied depending on what gear the car was in -
> is this normal with diesel rather than petrol engines?

I borrowed a diesel Volvo for a couple of weeks and found that the indicated
MPG
varied ENORMOUSLY with the gear, the accelerator, etc.

Loping along calmly, I got an indicated 70 mpg (and that is an American
gallon).
With heavy accelerator pressure, it would drop instantaneously to the teens
or so.
(This was not a turbo diesel).

Basically, the car averaged about 40 mpg, as measured by fuel in the tank
versus
mileage.  Not bad, for a turd car like this Volvo.
Florian Schaeffer - 23 Dec 2006 07:40 GMT
Martin Underwood schrieb am 22.12.2006 23:13:

> Well I presume that these cars have a fuel flow meter. I hadn't realised
> that you could get the instantaneous fuel consumption in a petrol/gasoline
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of information socket under the dashboard that devices such as ScanGauge can
> connect to. I wonder if the cars which have it use a flow meter.

I think ScanGauge only connects to the OBD II plug and calculate with
the available values. There is no value of a fuel flow meter in the data
set. Only the first 32 PIDs: http://www.blafusel.de/misc/obd2_pid.php.
Also the X-Gauge: http://www.welte-engineering.ch/

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