Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / January 2007
Rebuilt engines - good or bad?
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skybearer@gmail.com - 03 Jan 2007 19:00 GMT I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry, if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines, even when they're not that old ( a friend is selling a 1997 Escort with 97,000 miles and a rebuilt engine and transmission).
Is a rebuilt engine a plus or minus? Does it mean the car had problems or saw a lot of use, and needed a new engine? Or does it mean I'm getting a new engine with plenty of life? My father always told me not to get used cars with rebuilt engines, but some of the cars talk about rebuilds as if they're good things.
SB
lugnut - 03 Jan 2007 19:25 GMT >I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry, >if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >SB A properly rebuilt engine would be a plus in an older vehicle. Keep in mind that the term rebuilt means different things to different people all the way fro a fresh tuneup and oil change to every part having been replaced or reconditioned to as-new condition.
Lugnut
z - 03 Jan 2007 19:48 GMT > I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry, > if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > SB Depends who rebuilt it; a factory rebuild is a lovely thing, but probably costs more than the entire car at the age they are usually necessary. On the other hand, anecdotal evidence is that the number of early deaths in engines that were just genericaly "rebuilt", or even just had something like a rebuilt head swapped in, is pretty high. As in the Corvair I bought cheap, the previous owner having busted the big end of a con rod and put the rod right through the crankcase, about 50 miles after installing rebuilt heads.
Having once purchased a rebuilt head from a rebuilder with an excellent rep in the state and having seen the amount of metal shavings I was able to flush out of the oil passages (thanks to my paranoid nature) it's no surprise. On the other hand, when I tossed that head back and subsequently got one from PAECO (I'm happy to name names in a good way) in Georgia which looked like it had come from a NASA clean room, it lasted forever. On the other other hand, the price of that head, well see my first sentence.
Anyway, I see a lot of the Japanese cars getting not rebuilt engines, but just lower mileage engines and transmissions from junkyards. They're typically warranteed for a month or 90 days or some such, but you end up eating the labor unless your mechanic stands behind it. I've gone that route a few times, and not had the greatest luck, but it's at least halfway affordable even if you have bad luck of the draw and most people seem to have better luck at it than I. Eventually I got everything all working fine, btw, for the past 4 years.
Anyway again, as you suggested, I wonder myself whether major rebuilding is a good sign, in general. It's nice if a car hasw been meticulously maintained and repaired, but these cars that are advertised with new everything as a good thing remind me of somebody with a long medical history, not exactly a sign of good health.
Tegger - 03 Jan 2007 23:48 GMT <snip good points>
> On the other hand, when I tossed > that head back and subsequently got one from PAECO (I'm happy to name > names in a good way) It's nice to know there are good rebuilding places out there, but the $64,000 question is...how do you know who they are????? How can you tell the butchers from the best?
My car is getting up there in mileage, and I'm going to need a rebuild or replacement in the next couple of years, so this is an important subject to me. The car is a '91 Integra that I've owned since new.
If anybody knows of a quality rebuilder in Southern Ontario (Canada), I'd be glad to hear about it. Price is not the issue here, quality is.
 Signature Tegger
z - 04 Jan 2007 17:02 GMT > <snip good points> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If anybody knows of a quality rebuilder in Southern Ontario (Canada), I'd > be glad to hear about it. Price is not the issue here, quality is. The aforesaid junkyard engine and trans which are now giving me good service in the Civic were one of those Japanese throwaways, from a junkyard in Canada I saw advertised; I forget whether it was Ontario or PQ. I'd make more of an effort to dig it up, but they sort of botched it by promising me the ECU and shift linkage, and supplying neither. In fairness, they didn't charge me for either, figuring that evened it up, but the cost and hassle of getting them was (predictably) considerable, and the fact that they advertised "complete with ECU and shift linkage" was one of the reasons I went with them rather than anyone closer to home. This was a Japanese B16a1 with a limited slip trans, and even including the cost and hassle of getting those parts and more repairs to the engine than I expected, even though I had budgeted a timing belt replacement, it was still cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine, and has been well worth it; the limited slip trans in a FWD is a minor miracle in itself, and I ain't going back!
Tegger - 05 Jan 2007 00:03 GMT > it was still > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine, You can get that? My local Acura dealer's parts man has worked there since 1986 and never mentioned factory rebuilds when I got prices from him.
> and has > been well worth it; the limited slip trans in a FWD is a minor miracle > in itself, and I ain't going back! The whole thing is a bit intimidating from my perspective.
Buy a used motor and risk buying somebody's neglect. Get it rebuilt and you risk having a bad job done.
There is a shop that's been recommended to me by a very reputable garage. This rebuilder's been around for many years, but works mostly on North American engines. I called them and spoke to the owner, who invited me to take a tour. He'd show me exactly what they do and how they do it. Quoted $2,800Cdn for a complete bare-block rebuild. Sounds promising...
 Signature Tegger
z - 08 Jan 2007 16:00 GMT > > it was still > > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > take a tour. He'd show me exactly what they do and how they do it. Quoted > $2,800Cdn for a complete bare-block rebuild. Sounds promising... Well, the good side as well as the bad side is the fact that the failure rate from crib deaths is high; if they give you like a 90 day warranty you're good. Probably even a 30 day warranty. Heck, if it gets past thirty days without falling apart, you know that it's at least as well put together as a motor from one of the Detroit makes.
Tegger - 08 Jan 2007 17:51 GMT >> > it was still >> > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > gets past thirty days without falling apart, you know that it's at > least as well put together as a motor from one of the Detroit makes. I'm not too keen on rebuilds right now on account of the horror stories and warnings I've been receiving.
Another possibility: A brand-new short block from Honda is about $2,700Cdn, which includes the oil pump and oil pan. Then I'd need to get the head rebuilt plus buy a bunch of other new parts. Expensive, but probably the very best option from a durability angle.
 Signature Tegger
z - 08 Jan 2007 16:01 GMT > > it was still > > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > take a tour. He'd show me exactly what they do and how they do it. Quoted > $2,800Cdn for a complete bare-block rebuild. Sounds promising... I forgot to ask, what exactly is wrong with the engine that it needs rebuilding, vs. just something like valve seals?
Tegger - 08 Jan 2007 17:47 GMT >> The whole thing is a bit intimidating from my perspective. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I forgot to ask, what exactly is wrong with the engine that it needs > rebuilding, vs. just something like valve seals? The rings are worn.
Everything else seems to be fine. Car has 280,000 miles on it and spends much of its time around 4,000 RPM in 5th gear. Personally, I think 5th is geared too low in this model.
I'm OK for probably a couple more years (maybe more?), but at some point the oil consumption will cause me to fail smog, so I'm just starting my planning early.
I'm currently getting between 1,300 and 1,600 miles per quart of oil, depending on season.
 Signature Tegger
z - 08 Jan 2007 21:30 GMT > > it was still > > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > Tegger That's the 1.8 liter, no VTEC, right? Have you thought about swapping a VTEC in?
Tegger - 08 Jan 2007 22:17 GMT >> The whole thing is a bit intimidating from my perspective. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > That's the 1.8 liter, no VTEC, right? Have you thought about swapping > a VTEC in? Yeah I considered that, but I decided I want to keep it totally stock.
It's a B18A1 -- no VTEC.
 Signature Tegger
z - 10 Jan 2007 15:49 GMT > >> The whole thing is a bit intimidating from my perspective. > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > Tegger You could probably dig up some low mileage no-VTEC drivetrains for pretty cheap, like maybe $500; maybe even do compression tests on them before buying? That leaves a lot of spare change to cover any deficiencies in the used engine. It's a crapshoot either way, of course. Do they have to pull the drivetrain to rebuild the engine? I know you can rebuild the a RWD engine while still in the car, saving a bit of labor, but FWD I'm not so sure.
Tegger - 11 Jan 2007 02:44 GMT >> > That's the 1.8 liter, no VTEC, right? Have you thought about >> > swapping a VTEC in? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > deficiencies in the used engine. It's a crapshoot either way, of > course. Yes it is.
> Do they have to pull the drivetrain to rebuild the engine? Yes. Have to yank the whole thing.
I've been reading up on rebuilding engines. The more I read, the more scared I am of buying a poor job. There are a bewildering number of very specific procedures, clearances and techniques that need to be followed precisely, or you'll end up with a short-lived engine. Not encouraging.
I'm going to check with my parts guy tomorrow for factory rebuilt B18A1s to see if they're available. If not, I'd better start saving my pennies and dimes for a brand-new OEM short block and just get the head rebuilt.
 Signature Tegger
z - 11 Jan 2007 16:04 GMT > >> > That's the 1.8 liter, no VTEC, right? Have you thought about > >> > swapping a VTEC in? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > see if they're available. If not, I'd better start saving my pennies and > dimes for a brand-new OEM short block and just get the head rebuilt. Well, again, you could check out PAECO; last time I looked they rebuilt engines in 4 grades, 3 performance levels from street to all out racing, and a fourth built with racing strength but street performance for ultimate reliability, price is not cheap but probably cheaper than factory, I liked their work and they've been in the small engine/import performance biz since forever, way before the Japanese invasion (or you could get a short block or heads from them); or look around for other volume engine rebuilders at mass-market prices, they're presumably standardized as to process; or get a used one and even if it should die in a few years, you've saved enough to get another used one and still be ahead of the game; or go with your mechanic, as you said there are a lot meticulous things to be done but most of it is just a matter of being meticulous.
Boring story: my first real experience with mechanicing was sort of a total immersion way back when, when what began as a simple drivetrain swap in a Corvair turned into a drivetrain swap with swapping heads and ended up as an entire engine rebuild except for the heads, me with minimal mechanical experience and not much cash, done at one of the $2 an hour public rent-a-garage-bay-and-borrow-tools places they had then. (This was what happened after I bought the previously mentioned Corvair with the brand new rebuilt heads which had immediately thrown a rod, and wanted to merge it with my 100,000 mile old crapped out but running Corvair which had just been rearended by a school bus) Took 2 weeks, about 8 hrs a day, I played hooky from college. I dragged the crankshaft to a machine shop to do whatever it was they needed to do (grind it true?) in my innocence I didn't bother with reboring the crankcase or the cylinders, just honed them, didn't use the plastigage to determine whether the bearing clearances were correct, just miked them and got the right size bearings, same for the rings, didn't check oil pump gear tolerance either, didn't check ring end gap, managed to botch the positioning of the ring gap so that the edge of it caught in the notch in the bottom of the cylinder barrel that was there to clear the con rods, but I was hugely careful to clean out all dirt, grit, metal, etc., carefully use cam prelube etc., since all that wasn't rocket science, just obvious good practice. Anyway, after I got it together I discovered I had to rebuild the carbs too, but after that it ran like a bear and had no problems until it got stolen (most likely by one of the guys hanging around the shop who "helped" me). Point being, I guess, that for most of this stuff it's not a matter of being rocket science perfect, even if you're a little outside the specified tolerance it'll be OK, it's a matter of avoiding the one big goofup that'll destroy the engine. If a hamhanded (still) and not very knowledgable (then) guy like me could rebuild an engine successfully, then a mechanic who was willing to take the time to be careful ought to be able to.
I believe that at this point, I've argued both for and against all points of view... ?
Tegger - 12 Jan 2007 03:23 GMT > Well, again, you could check out PAECO; last time I looked they > rebuilt engines in 4 grades, 3 performance levels from street to all > out racing, and a fourth built with racing strength but street > performance for ultimate reliability, price is not cheap That's for sure. My 'Teg's motor runs $4,600 US at PAECO. For me a brand- new Honda short block is $2,300 US.
<snip>
> Boring story: T'aint' so boring. I read it. You were a lot more competent than I was 28 years ago.
<snip>
> I believe that at this point, I've argued both for and against all > points of view... ? Like a good politician...
 Signature Tegger
Steve B. - 03 Jan 2007 20:34 GMT >I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry, >if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >SB One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to replace the words "rebuilt" or "restored" with f^&*'ed up and reread the ad. So you have a '97 Escort with 97k miles and a f^&*'ed up engine and a f^&*'ed up transmission.
Now this isn't always true. There are transmission rebuilders out there that can take your transmission, rebuild it and give you back a better unit than the car had when it rolled off the factory floor. And there are engine builders who are meticulous and make sure everything is as perfect as they can get it. On the other hand there are plenty of places out there turning out crap rebuilds that you will be dang lucky to get 20k miles out of.
Another thing to consider is that even the cheapest car out there today should be good for 150 to 200k without needing a rebuilt engine. What in the heck did these people do to these poor cars to cause them to need rebuilt engines and transmissions at this young age?
One more point and I will shut up.... Rebuilt means different things to different people. To me rebuilt means you have completely returned the entire unit to factory or better specs. To others a single new bearing and two cans of black spray paint = rebuilt.
If it was my money I would keep looking to find a nice lower mileage that hasn't needed all this rebuiling...
Steve B.
Ad absurdum per aspera - 03 Jan 2007 22:12 GMT [Many thought-provoking points]
> Another thing to consider is that even the cheapest car out there > today should be good for 150 to 200k without needing a rebuilt engine. > What in the heck did these people do to these poor cars to cause them > to need rebuilt engines and transmissions at this young age? MANY cars are good for it, IF one takes care of them. There are owners/drivers who remind me of that old joke about people who, if left in the desert all night with nothing but an anvil, will have broken the anvil by dawn.
There are also some tinnily built cars, and some that are mostly nice but have a make/model/year/option-specific Achilles heel.
That having been said, the original poster is looking at a Corolla or Camry. Well, plus or minus a span of years in the early 90s that some say had "sludging" problems in certain engines if you aren't scrupulous about oil changes -- that, and you do have to replace the timing belt at a certain long interval -- Toyotas are legendary for going the distance. My sister had a 1988 V6/automatic Camry wagon that they traded at 180,000 miles (someone somewhere may still be using it as a fishin' car, but after 17 Rust Belt winters, they didn't want to commute on the expressway in it anymore). My '89 four-banger/five-on-the-floor Camry is still a daily driver with two and a quarter on the clock; it has always enjoyed fresh oil and never tasted road salt but otherwise has been used in the most knockabout fashion. Mom's '90 Corolla doesn't count because at her 3000-mile-a-year pace she won't turn over the odometer until cars are replaced by Scotty's transporter beam, but it has certainly displayed reliability and low maintenance.
A final thought for any used car purchase: Before signing or paying anything, take it to a trustworthy mechanic or at least a car-savvy friend who has no vested interest in the deal. You're paying for objectivity as well as expertise -- by this point, more or less by definition you want the car. I have learned the importance of such counsel in both the easy and the hard ways (and have provided it on occasion). At the very least, you'll get a roadmap of future repairs and preventive maintenance; at most, you'll spend forty or fifty bucks to avoid a mistake that could cost thousands, regarding either Something Mechanics Know about the model, or abuse, neglect, or sheer age of the particular car.
Best of luck, --Joe
Runk - 04 Jan 2007 05:12 GMT Can't go wrong with Jasper !
> I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry, > if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > SB Ted Mittelstaedt - 04 Jan 2007 06:06 GMT > I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry, > if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines, > even when they're not that old ( a friend is selling a 1997 Escort with > 97,000 miles and a rebuilt engine and transmission). You see this a lot in Asian cars because most Asian engines use interference designs, which means the valves occupy the same space as the piston head during the cycle. As long as the timing belt does not break or slip, the engine works fine but if the owner does not regularly replace the timing belt (and quite a lot of them don't) and the belt wears out and breaks, the engine is destroyed. (at least, the heads are)
> Is a rebuilt engine a plus or minus? Does it mean the car had problems > or saw a lot of use, and needed a new engine? Or does it mean I'm > getting a new engine with plenty of life? My father always told me not > to get used cars with rebuilt engines, but some of the cars talk about > rebuilds as if they're good things. I got a rebuilt engine from these guys for my 1984 Celebrity wagon:
http://www.jonesautoengines.com
It carried a 50,000 mile/ 5 year warranty. The engine is still running, 60,000 miles later.
Ted
* - 04 Jan 2007 10:43 GMT skybearer@gmail.com wrote in article <1167850813.929492.177050@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com>...
> I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry, > if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > SB If one of today's cars is so poorly maintained that the engine has to be rebuilt/replaced with fewer than 100K, I would question the condition of the remainder of the car - and how well it has been maintained.
That, or the actual quality of the vehicle in the first place.
Either way, I doubt if I would consider buying any car that has had a major component replaced in such a short time.
I, and many of my friends, routinely run our cars up to 200K with the original driveline - engine, transmission, and drive axle.
z - 10 Jan 2007 20:52 GMT > skybearer@gmail.com wrote in article > <1167850813.929492.177050@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com>... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I, and many of my friends, routinely run our cars up to 200K with the > original driveline - engine, transmission, and drive axle. On the other hand (having posted to the opposite point of view, earlier), I needed a "new" manual trans on my Civic at 50K due to bearing noises (well, I got a new one, whether I really needed it is another question) despite meticulous care and maintenance and babying the shifts (which wouldn't affect the bearings anyway) (at which point I discovered that the clutch throwout bearing was dragging and would have needed premature replacement soon, despite my being careful to never sit with my foot on the clutch); the used trans I swapped in made worse noises and needed immediate replacement; the third used trans I swapped in needed replacement because it couldn't be made to stop leaking around the axles even after seal replacements (so I figured the case must have been distorted); the fourth trans I swapped in (which was actually cannibalized from the original and third transmissions, since the gearsets etc. were like new, I told you I babied them) had the fifth gear walk off the end of the countershaft after a year or tow, so that shifting into fifth put you into neutral. The fifth trans I swapped in (which was actually re-cannibalized from that fourth trans, plus the other gearset in my now large collection of transmission parts) lasted until I swapped to a B series powertrain, the transmission of which has lasted perfectly fine (although the motor mounts literally pulled out of the engine; the start of a new thread of probability-defeating series of unlikely engine problems).
So, sometimes you just run into a string of bad luck.
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