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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / January 2007

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Rebuilt engines - good or bad?

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skybearer@gmail.com - 03 Jan 2007 19:00 GMT
I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry,
if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines,
even when they're not that old ( a friend is selling a 1997 Escort with
97,000 miles and a rebuilt engine and transmission).

Is a rebuilt engine a plus or minus? Does it mean the car had problems
or saw a lot of use, and needed a new engine? Or does it mean I'm
getting a new engine with plenty of life? My father always  told me not
to get used cars with rebuilt engines, but some of the cars talk about
rebuilds as if they're good things.

SB
lugnut - 03 Jan 2007 19:25 GMT
>I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry,
>if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>SB

A properly rebuilt engine would be a plus in an older
vehicle.  Keep in mind that the term rebuilt means different
things to different people all the way fro a fresh tuneup
and oil change to every part having been replaced or
reconditioned to as-new condition.

Lugnut
z - 03 Jan 2007 19:48 GMT
> I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry,
> if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> SB

Depends who rebuilt it; a factory rebuild is a lovely thing, but
probably costs more than the entire car at the age they are usually
necessary. On the other hand, anecdotal evidence is that the number of
early deaths in engines that were just genericaly "rebuilt", or even
just had something like a rebuilt head swapped in, is pretty high. As
in the Corvair I bought cheap, the previous owner having busted the big
end of a con rod and put the rod right through the crankcase, about 50
miles after installing rebuilt heads.

Having once purchased a rebuilt head from a rebuilder with an excellent
rep in the state and having seen the amount of metal shavings  I was
able to flush out of the oil passages (thanks to my paranoid nature)
it's no surprise. On the other hand, when I tossed that head back and
subsequently got one from PAECO (I'm happy to name names in a good way)
in Georgia which looked like it had come from a NASA clean room, it
lasted forever. On the other other hand, the price of that head, well
see my first sentence.

Anyway, I see a lot of the Japanese cars getting not rebuilt engines,
but just lower mileage engines and transmissions from junkyards.
They're typically warranteed for  a month or 90 days or some such, but
you end up eating the labor unless your mechanic stands behind it. I've
gone that route a few times, and not had the greatest luck, but it's at
least halfway affordable even if you have bad luck of the draw and most
people seem to have better luck at it than I. Eventually I got
everything all working fine, btw, for the past 4 years.

Anyway again, as you suggested, I wonder myself whether major
rebuilding is a good sign, in general. It's nice if a car hasw been
meticulously maintained and repaired, but these cars that are
advertised with new everything as a good thing remind me of somebody
with a long medical history, not exactly a sign of good health.
Tegger - 03 Jan 2007 23:48 GMT
<snip good points>

> On the other hand, when I tossed
> that head back and subsequently got one from PAECO (I'm happy to name
> names in a good way)

It's nice to know there are good rebuilding places out there, but the
$64,000 question is...how do you know who they are????? How can you tell
the butchers from the best?

My car is getting up there in mileage, and I'm going to need a rebuild or
replacement in the next couple of years, so this is an important subject to
me. The car is a '91 Integra that I've owned since new.

If anybody knows of a quality rebuilder in Southern Ontario (Canada), I'd
be glad to hear about it. Price is not the issue here, quality is.

Signature

Tegger

z - 04 Jan 2007 17:02 GMT
> <snip good points>
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> If anybody knows of a quality rebuilder in Southern Ontario (Canada), I'd
> be glad to hear about it. Price is not the issue here, quality is.

The aforesaid junkyard engine and trans which are now giving me good
service in the Civic were one of those Japanese throwaways, from a
junkyard in Canada I saw advertised; I forget whether it was Ontario or
PQ. I'd make more of an effort to dig it up, but they sort of botched
it by promising me the ECU and shift linkage, and supplying neither. In
fairness, they didn't charge me for either, figuring that evened it up,
but the cost and hassle of getting them was (predictably) considerable,
and the fact that they advertised "complete with ECU and shift linkage"
was one of the reasons I went with them rather than anyone closer to
home. This was a Japanese B16a1 with a limited slip trans, and even
including the cost and hassle of getting those parts and more repairs
to the engine than I expected, even though I had budgeted a timing belt
replacement, it was still cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16
original engine, and has been well worth it; the limited slip trans in
a FWD is a minor miracle in itself, and I ain't going back!
Tegger - 05 Jan 2007 00:03 GMT
> it was still
> cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine,

You can get that? My local Acura dealer's parts man has worked there since
1986 and never mentioned factory rebuilds when I got prices from him.

> and has
> been well worth it; the limited slip trans in a FWD is a minor miracle
> in itself, and I ain't going back!

The whole thing is a bit intimidating from my perspective.

Buy a used motor and risk buying somebody's neglect. Get it rebuilt and you
risk having a bad job done.

There is a shop that's been recommended to me by a very reputable garage.
This rebuilder's been around for many years, but works mostly on North
American engines. I called them and spoke to the owner, who invited me to
take a tour. He'd show me exactly what they do and how they do it. Quoted
$2,800Cdn for a complete bare-block rebuild. Sounds promising...

Signature

Tegger

z - 08 Jan 2007 16:00 GMT
> > it was still
> > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> take a tour. He'd show me exactly what they do and how they do it. Quoted
> $2,800Cdn for a complete bare-block rebuild. Sounds promising...

Well, the good side as well as the bad side is the fact that the
failure rate from crib deaths is high; if they give you like a 90 day
warranty you're good. Probably even a 30 day warranty. Heck, if it gets
past thirty days without falling apart, you know that it's at least as
well put together as a motor from one of the Detroit makes.
Tegger - 08 Jan 2007 17:51 GMT
>> > it was still
>> > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine,
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> gets past thirty days without falling apart, you know that it's at
> least as well put together as a motor from one of the Detroit makes.

I'm not too keen on rebuilds right now on account of the horror stories
and warnings I've been receiving.

Another possibility:
A brand-new short block from Honda is about $2,700Cdn, which includes
the oil pump and oil pan. Then I'd need to get the head rebuilt plus buy
a bunch of other new parts. Expensive, but probably the very best option
from a durability angle.

Signature

Tegger

z - 08 Jan 2007 16:01 GMT
> > it was still
> > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> take a tour. He'd show me exactly what they do and how they do it. Quoted
> $2,800Cdn for a complete bare-block rebuild. Sounds promising...

I forgot to ask, what exactly is wrong with the engine that it needs
rebuilding, vs. just something like valve seals?
Tegger - 08 Jan 2007 17:47 GMT
>> The whole thing is a bit intimidating from my perspective.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I forgot to ask, what exactly is wrong with the engine that it needs
> rebuilding, vs. just something like valve seals?

The rings are worn.

Everything else seems to be fine. Car has 280,000 miles on it and spends
much of its time around 4,000 RPM in 5th gear. Personally, I think 5th is
geared too low in this model.

I'm OK for probably a couple more years (maybe more?), but at some point
the oil consumption will cause me to fail smog, so I'm just starting my
planning early.

I'm currently getting between 1,300 and 1,600 miles per quart of oil,
depending on season.

Signature

Tegger

z - 08 Jan 2007 21:30 GMT
> > it was still
> > cheaper than a factory rebuild of the D16 original engine,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> --
> Tegger

That's the 1.8 liter, no VTEC, right? Have you thought about swapping a
VTEC in?
Tegger - 08 Jan 2007 22:17 GMT
>> The whole thing is a bit intimidating from my perspective.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> That's the 1.8 liter, no VTEC, right? Have you thought about swapping
> a VTEC in?

Yeah I considered that, but I decided I want to keep it totally stock.

It's a B18A1 -- no VTEC.

Signature

Tegger

z - 10 Jan 2007 15:49 GMT
> >> The whole thing is a bit intimidating from my perspective.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> --
> Tegger

You could probably dig up some low mileage no-VTEC drivetrains for
pretty cheap, like maybe $500; maybe even do compression tests on them
before buying? That leaves a lot of spare change to cover any
deficiencies in the used engine. It's a crapshoot either way, of
course. Do they have to pull the drivetrain to rebuild the engine? I
know you can rebuild the a RWD engine while still in the car, saving a
bit of labor, but FWD I'm not so sure.
Tegger - 11 Jan 2007 02:44 GMT
>> > That's the 1.8 liter, no VTEC, right? Have you thought about
>> > swapping a VTEC in?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> deficiencies in the used engine. It's a crapshoot either way, of
> course.

Yes it is.

> Do they have to pull the drivetrain to rebuild the engine?

Yes. Have to yank the whole thing.

I've been reading up on rebuilding engines. The more I read, the more
scared I am of buying a poor job. There are a bewildering number of very
specific procedures, clearances and techniques that need to be followed
precisely, or you'll end up with a short-lived engine. Not encouraging.

I'm going to check with my parts guy tomorrow for factory rebuilt B18A1s to
see if they're available. If not, I'd better start saving my pennies and
dimes for a brand-new OEM short block and just get the head rebuilt.

Signature

Tegger

z - 11 Jan 2007 16:04 GMT
> >> > That's the 1.8 liter, no VTEC, right? Have you thought about
> >> > swapping a VTEC in?
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> see if they're available. If not, I'd better start saving my pennies and
> dimes for a brand-new OEM short block and just get the head rebuilt.

Well, again, you could check out PAECO; last time I looked they rebuilt
engines in 4 grades, 3 performance levels from street to all out
racing, and a fourth built with racing strength but street performance
for ultimate reliability, price is not cheap but probably cheaper than
factory, I liked their work and they've been in the small engine/import
performance biz since forever, way before the Japanese invasion (or you
could get a short block or heads from them); or look around for other
volume engine rebuilders at mass-market prices, they're presumably
standardized as to process; or get a used one and even if it should die
in a few years, you've saved enough to get another used one and still
be ahead of the game; or go with your mechanic, as you said there are a
lot meticulous things to be done but most of it is just a matter of
being meticulous.

Boring story: my first real experience with mechanicing was sort of a
total immersion way back when, when what began as a simple drivetrain
swap in a Corvair turned into a drivetrain swap with swapping heads and
ended up as an entire engine rebuild except for the heads, me with
minimal mechanical experience and not much cash, done at one of the $2
an hour public rent-a-garage-bay-and-borrow-tools places they had then.
(This was what happened after I bought the previously mentioned Corvair
with the brand new rebuilt heads which had immediately thrown a rod,
and wanted to merge it with my 100,000 mile old crapped out but running
Corvair which had just been rearended by a school bus) Took 2 weeks,
about 8 hrs a day, I played hooky from college. I dragged the
crankshaft to a machine shop to do whatever it was they needed to do
(grind it true?) in my innocence I didn't bother with reboring the
crankcase or the cylinders, just honed them, didn't use the plastigage
to determine whether the bearing clearances were correct, just miked
them and got the right size bearings, same for the rings, didn't check
oil pump gear tolerance either, didn't check ring end gap, managed to
botch the positioning of the ring gap so that the edge of it caught in
the notch in the bottom of the cylinder barrel that was there to clear
the con rods, but I was hugely careful to clean out all dirt, grit,
metal, etc., carefully use cam prelube etc., since all that wasn't
rocket science, just obvious good practice. Anyway, after I got it
together I discovered I had to rebuild the carbs too, but after that it
ran like a bear and had no problems until it got stolen (most likely by
one of the guys hanging around the shop who "helped" me). Point being,
I guess, that for most of this stuff it's not a matter of being rocket
science perfect, even if you're a little outside the specified
tolerance it'll be OK, it's a matter of avoiding the one big goofup
that'll destroy the engine. If a hamhanded (still) and not very
knowledgable (then) guy like me could rebuild an engine successfully,
then a mechanic who was willing to take the time to be careful ought to
be able to.

I believe that at this point, I've argued both for and against all
points of view... ?
Tegger - 12 Jan 2007 03:23 GMT
> Well, again, you could check out PAECO; last time I looked they
> rebuilt engines in 4 grades, 3 performance levels from street to all
> out racing, and a fourth built with racing strength but street
> performance for ultimate reliability, price is not cheap

That's for sure. My 'Teg's motor runs $4,600 US at PAECO. For me a brand-
new Honda short block is $2,300 US.

<snip>

> Boring story:

T'aint' so boring. I read it. You were a lot more competent than I was 28
years ago.

<snip>

> I believe that at this point, I've argued both for and against all
> points of view... ?

Like a good politician...

Signature

Tegger

Steve B. - 03 Jan 2007 20:34 GMT
>I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry,
>if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>SB

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to replace the words
"rebuilt" or "restored" with f^&*'ed up and reread the ad.  So you
have a '97 Escort with 97k miles and a f^&*'ed up engine and a f^&*'ed
up  transmission.

Now this isn't always true.  There are transmission rebuilders out
there that can take your transmission, rebuild it and give you back a
better unit than the car had when it rolled off the factory floor. And
there are engine builders who are meticulous and make sure everything
is as perfect as they can get it.  On the other hand there are plenty
of places out there turning out crap rebuilds that you will be dang
lucky to get 20k miles out of.

Another thing to consider is that even the cheapest car out there
today should be good for 150 to 200k without needing a rebuilt engine.
What in the heck did these people do to these poor cars to cause them
to need rebuilt engines and transmissions at this young age?

One more point and I will shut up....  Rebuilt means different things
to different people.  To me rebuilt means you have completely returned
the entire unit to factory or better specs.  To others a single new
bearing and two cans of black spray paint = rebuilt.

If it was my money I would keep looking to find a nice lower mileage
that hasn't needed all this rebuiling...

               Steve B.
Ad absurdum per aspera - 03 Jan 2007 22:12 GMT
[Many thought-provoking points]

> Another thing to consider is that even the cheapest car out there
> today should be good for 150 to 200k without needing a rebuilt engine.
> What in the heck did these people do to these poor cars to cause them
> to need rebuilt engines and transmissions at this young age?

MANY cars are good for it, IF one takes care of them.  There are
owners/drivers who remind me of that old joke about people who, if left
in the desert all night with nothing but an anvil,  will have broken
the anvil by dawn.

There are also some tinnily built cars, and some that are mostly nice
but have a make/model/year/option-specific Achilles heel.

That having been said, the original poster is looking at a Corolla or
Camry.  Well, plus or minus a span of years in the early 90s that some
say had  "sludging" problems in certain engines if you aren't
scrupulous about oil changes -- that,  and you do have to replace the
timing belt at a certain long interval -- Toyotas are legendary for
going the distance.   My sister had a 1988 V6/automatic Camry wagon
that they traded at  180,000 miles (someone somewhere may still be
using it as a fishin' car, but after 17 Rust Belt winters, they didn't
want to commute on the expressway in it anymore).   My '89
four-banger/five-on-the-floor Camry is still a daily driver with two
and a quarter on the clock; it has always enjoyed fresh oil and never
tasted road salt but otherwise has been used in the most knockabout
fashion.    Mom's '90 Corolla doesn't count because at her
3000-mile-a-year pace she won't turn over the odometer until cars are
replaced by Scotty's transporter beam, but it has certainly displayed
reliability and low maintenance.

A final thought for any used car purchase:  Before signing or paying
anything, take it to a trustworthy mechanic or at least a car-savvy
friend who has no vested interest in the deal.  You're paying for
objectivity as well as expertise -- by this point, more or less by
definition you want the car.    I have learned the importance of such
counsel in both the easy and the hard ways (and have provided it on
occasion).  At the very least, you'll get a roadmap of future repairs
and preventive maintenance; at most, you'll spend forty or fifty bucks
to avoid a mistake that could cost thousands, regarding either
Something Mechanics Know about the model, or abuse, neglect, or sheer
age of the particular car.

Best of luck,
--Joe
Runk - 04 Jan 2007 05:12 GMT
Can't go wrong with Jasper !
> I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry,
> if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> SB
Ted Mittelstaedt - 04 Jan 2007 06:06 GMT
> I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry,
> if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines,
> even when they're not that old ( a friend is selling a 1997 Escort with
> 97,000 miles and a rebuilt engine and transmission).

You see this a lot in Asian cars because most Asian engines use
interference designs, which means the valves occupy the same space
as the piston head during the cycle.  As long as the timing belt does
not break or slip, the engine works fine but if the owner does not
regularly replace the timing belt (and quite a lot of them don't) and
the belt wears out and breaks, the engine is destroyed. (at least, the
heads are)

> Is a rebuilt engine a plus or minus? Does it mean the car had problems
> or saw a lot of use, and needed a new engine? Or does it mean I'm
> getting a new engine with plenty of life? My father always  told me not
> to get used cars with rebuilt engines, but some of the cars talk about
> rebuilds as if they're good things.

I got a rebuilt engine from these guys for my 1984 Celebrity wagon:

http://www.jonesautoengines.com

It carried a 50,000 mile/ 5 year warranty.  The engine is still running,
60,000 miles later.

Ted
* - 04 Jan 2007 10:43 GMT
skybearer@gmail.com wrote in article
<1167850813.929492.177050@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com>...
> I'm looking for an older, inexpensive station wagon (Corolla or Camry,
> if I can find one). A lot of the cars I'm seeing have rebuilt engines,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> SB

If one of today's cars is so poorly maintained that the engine has to be
rebuilt/replaced with fewer than 100K, I would question the condition of
the remainder of the car - and how well it has been maintained.

That, or the actual quality of the vehicle in the first place.

Either way, I doubt if I would consider buying any car that has had a major
component replaced in such a short time.

I, and many of my friends, routinely run our cars up to 200K with the
original driveline - engine, transmission, and drive axle.
z - 10 Jan 2007 20:52 GMT
> skybearer@gmail.com wrote in article
> <1167850813.929492.177050@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> I, and many of my friends, routinely run our cars up to 200K with the
> original driveline - engine, transmission, and drive axle.

On the other hand (having posted to the opposite point of view,
earlier), I needed a "new" manual trans on my Civic at 50K due to
bearing noises (well, I  got a new one, whether I really needed it is
another question) despite meticulous care and maintenance and babying
the shifts (which wouldn't affect the bearings anyway)  (at which point
I discovered that the clutch throwout bearing was dragging and would
have needed premature replacement soon, despite my being careful to
never sit with my foot on the clutch); the used trans I swapped in made
worse noises and needed immediate replacement; the third used trans I
swapped in needed replacement because it couldn't be made to stop
leaking around the axles even after seal replacements (so I figured the
case must have been distorted); the fourth trans I swapped in (which
was actually cannibalized from the original and third transmissions,
since the gearsets etc. were like new, I told you I babied them) had
the fifth gear walk off the end of the countershaft after a year or
tow, so that shifting into fifth put you into neutral. The fifth trans
I swapped in (which was actually re-cannibalized from that fourth
trans, plus the other gearset in my now large collection of
transmission parts) lasted until I swapped to a B series powertrain,
the transmission of  which has lasted perfectly fine (although the
motor mounts literally pulled out of the engine; the start of a new
thread of probability-defeating series of unlikely engine problems).

So, sometimes you just run into a string of bad luck.
 
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