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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / February 2007Chinese cars coming.
Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? They were shown at the auto show. (I wont buy a China car regardless of quality) If China is considered to be an enemy why are we importing their cars? Whats next Iran and N. Korean cars? > Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? They were > shown at the auto show. (I wont buy a China car regardless of quality) > > If China is considered to be an enemy why are we importing their cars? > Whats next Iran and N. Korean cars? A simple question that has a complex answer. The best way I can put it in a few words is that the powers that be in the USA are not enemies with China. China's government and corporate alliance is a threat to the people of the USA (as well as the people of China), but a friend to the corporate-government elites in the USA. > If China is considered to be an enemy why are we importing their cars? > Whats next Iran and N. Korean cars? Whoa, whoa, whoa...China is not our enemy, at this point. They are our competitors, and they have their own opinions, and just to disagree with them does not make them our enemies. We have lots of people who dont like us. We have, to some degree, earned this wrath. The American public wants to buy things that are shiny and cheap. Enter China. > Whoa, whoa, whoa...China is not our enemy, at this point. They are our > competitors, The workers in china compete with the workers in the USA mostly as US companies relocate to china. Except in China there is no minimum wage, no worker safety, no environmental laws of consquence, no a lot of the things we have. Plus their currency is fixed against the dollar. So if you're willing to work for table scraps and live in company dorm room, you might just be able to 'compete' with your counter part in China. Do a search for, Toyota's Ultra Low Cost Car I did last week.I saw a link about Tata cars (made in India) for about $1,000. cuhulin >> Whoa, whoa, whoa...China is not our enemy, at this point. They are our >> competitors, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >room, you might just be able to 'compete' with your counter part in >China. This has always been the case, just not to the same degree. For years and years much of our produce has been "cheap" due to it either being grown in countries without labor laws, or being grown here and harvested by migrants and/or illegals who work for low wages. You may as well get used to it because China is not going to go backward. They are aggressively moving ahead into the modern world and the Chinese people are smart, proud, and hard working. >This has always been the case, just not to the same degree. For years >and years much of our produce has been "cheap" due to it either being [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >backward. They are aggressively moving ahead into the modern world >and the Chinese people are smart, proud, and hard working. Which means eventually the Chinese are going to price themselves out of the low-cost labour market, the way the Japanese did in the seventies and eighties. The economy improves and their cost of living goes up. Then we'll have to turn to Haiti and Sudan for low-cost manufacturing. --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >This has always been the case, just not to the same degree. For years > >and years much of our produce has been "cheap" due to it either being [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >the low-cost labour market, the way the Japanese did in the seventies and > >eighties. The economy improves and their cost of living goes up. I don't know if that's going to be the case. They still have the largest population in the world, which is still primarily rural. A good deal of their cheap labor force comes from poor rural folks coming to cities to make more than they could on farms, then returning to rural areas after they've gotten their relative "fortunes". Then the cycle continues. The productivity of Chinese workers varies depending on industry. A worker in a shoe factory is expected to keep up gluing soles for hours. A machine operator in a car part plant may not be held to the same standard. I've heard that in some industries, you'll see the large majority of employees standing around drinking tea and talking to their coworkers. A lot of employers are distrustful of their employees knowing too much (taking their knowledge elsewhere) and will only train each employee on one or two machines when an American worker might be trained to operate every piece of equipment in the factory. The cost of labor is so much cheaper (partly an exchange rate phenomenon) that hiring seven Chinese workers is still far less than one typical American worker. I've been to China several times over the years. Back in the mid-80's when capitalism was starting, I got the sense that many weren't all that proud about doing a good job. You could walk into a restaurant and the employees had no worries about being rude to the customer because they weren't going to get fired. It's a lot better now, but some old habits die hard. China will likely still have their rural poor that can supply a cheap workforce, while others with more skills/education form a strong middle class. It's probably not going to be like Japan, which has a smaller population and less land mass. > Then we'll have to turn to Haiti and Sudan for low-cost manufacturing. Stability would seem to be a problem, n'est pas? > I've been to China several times over the years. I havent been there, one of the few countries I have not visited or worked in. Some friends recently told me that communism, and the authoritarian government, is all but dead. Capitalism is the way of life now. Prices, I think, will go up, and quality will have to follow. > Some friends recently told me that communism, and the authoritarian > government, is all but dead. Capitalism is the way of life now. Guess you didn't ask a political prisoner who had his organs harvested. > > Some friends recently told me that communism, and the authoritarian > > government, is all but dead. Capitalism is the way of life now. > > Guess you didn't ask a political prisoner who had his organs harvested. Dont post bullshit. If you know of someone who has had organs stolen, then post it. If not, then hold you peace. Any dumbshit can post rumor. I doubt that you have any first case intelligence. If you do, then document it. >> In article <Azauh.35786$QU1.22753@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, > HLS@nospam.nix wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Dont post bullshit. If you know of someone who has had organs stolen, then > post it. If not, then hold you peace. > Any dumbshit can post rumor. I doubt that you have any first case > intelligence. If you do, then document it. It's mainstream news. Even the US government's own state department says it is going on. China's government was forced to admit it that it goes on. Why don't you keep informed? http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53020 -> Following years of denial, China has acknowledged that foreigners who -> can pay more than native Chinese have been given preference for organ -> transplants and that "donors" for the operation have often been executed -> prisoners. http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/rm/2001/3792.htm -> Unfortunately, despite our efforts, as well as those of human rights -> activists like Harry Wu, human rights organizations, and concerned -> medical professionals, the practice of harvesting organs from executed -> prisoners continues in China. The lack of transparency in the Chinese -> criminal justice system, the secrecy that surrounds prison executions, -> and the removal of organs make actual documentation of the practice -> impossible. However, the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence regarding -> the practice of removing organs from executed prisoners for sale to -> foreigners and wealthy Chinese is substantial, credible, and growing. It -> cannot be ignored. Credible sources include public statements by patients -> who have had transplants in China, doctors who have provided -> post-transplant care to these patients in the United States and -> elsewhere, and testimony by Chinese doctors and former officials who -> claim to have witnessed or taken part in such practices or to have seen -> incriminating evidence. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4921116.stm -> Top British transplant surgeons have accused China of harvesting the -> organs of thousands of executed prisoners every year to sell for -> transplants. -> In a statement, the British Transplantation Society condemned the -> practice as unacceptable and a breach of human rights. -> The move comes less than a week after Chinese officials publicly denied -> the practice took place. " http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/apr/06042805.html -> Organ Harvesting from Chinese Prisoners Confirmed -> by Hilary White -> BEIJING, April 27, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) . The Epoch Times -> International, a New York based online journal specializing in China and -> related issues, has confirmed through independent investigation that the -> Chinese communist government has been using prisoners as a source of -> organs for the international and domestic transplant market." Of course you'll sit back and say it's a bunch of lies I'm sure. BBC, US State department, doctors, Vice Health Minister Huang Jiefu in the China Daily, etc and so forth won't be enough in typical usenet fashion. Back in the 1930's and 1940's,Chevrolet and Harley Davidson had factorys in China.I have an old car magazine around here somewhere which dates back to the 1970's and the magazine has an article about that.Harley Davidson has a new factory near Shanghai.A website I saw a couple of years ago, www.chinesecars.net I have been to China too,on my way to Vietnam in 1964 and I did my five days R&R in Hong Kong,1964. www.114thaviationcompany.com www.tsna.org www.angelfire.com/md2/Ldotvets (I hope I am not too off topic about posting those last three websites) cuhulin > >> In article <Azauh.35786$QU1.22753@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, > > HLS@nospam.nix wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > it is going on. China's government was forced to admit it that it goes > on. Why don't you keep informed. I dont get involved in China's affairs. I have no prima facie evidence of anything illegal being done. Maybe you find harvesting organs from executed prisoners distasteful. I do not, necessarily. And I dont know whether all these prisoners are political or criminal. I would find it distasteful if they were executing people SIMPLY for their organs. >> It's mainstream news. Even the US government's own state department says >> it is going on. China's government was forced to admit it that it goes >> on. Why don't you keep informed. > I dont get involved in China's affairs. I have no prima facie evidence of > anything illegal being done. Well everything a tyrannical government does is 'legal' there. Hell it's now legal for the president of the USA to declare anyone he wants an unlawful enemy combatant (without Habeas corpus, citizen or not makes no difference because the government just declares one not to be a citizen) and make that person disappear into the network of secret prisons. Even shipped to another proxy nation and be tortured. It's all 'legal'. Miltary Commissions Act passed late last year, Rendition, the policy started by the Clinton adminstration to have proxy nations do the torturing for the US government. > Maybe you find harvesting organs from executed prisoners distasteful. I do > not, necessarily. And I dont know whether all these prisoners are > political or criminal. As I figured, it's not enough... More: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-3-30/39881.html -> The Green Party of Canada is urging the Canadian government to act on -> reports of a secret death camp in the northeastern Chinese city of -> Shenyang, where detained Falun Gong practitioners have reportedly been -> killed for their organs. <...> -> The Sujiatun concentration camp is a secret underground facility where -> the Chinese communist regime has reportedly held thousands of Falun Gong -> practitioners, whose organs are harvested.while the victims are still -> alive.and sold in China's lucrative organ trade. <...> -> It is not known where the hearts, kidneys, corneas, and other organs -> that are reportedly harvested from Falun Gong adherents are sold. -> However, a transplant assistance centre in the First Affiliated Hospital -> of China Medical University, also in Shenyang city, boasts on its website -> that its patients are from "all around the world" and that its organ -> operations are "more safe and reliable here than in other countries, -> where the organ is not from a living donor." -> Organs are available in as little as one week, the centre says, whereas -> wait times in countries like Canada are usually on the order of several -> years. The centre was established in 2003, when organ harvesting at -> Sujiatun is said to have been at its peak. > I would find it distasteful if they were executing people SIMPLY for their > organs. Such views are why the USA is becoming more like China. How do you think they get the wait time to be so short? A government that has so much power and is so unaccountable would never make up a crime to charge and convict someone with so that a connected VIP type could get the organs he needs... Such a government would never have people bribed into obtaining the organs either... "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Such views are why the USA is becoming more like China. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > VIP type could get the organs he needs... Such a government would never > have people bribed into obtaining the organs either... Well, Brent, you go change things in China, and I'll mind the store. > "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> Such views are why the USA is becoming more like China. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Well, Brent, you go change things in China, and I'll mind the store. That doesn't follow at all. Just stop trying to make china's government seem like a 'good friend' that is reforming to rationalize buying crap made there. China's government has no reason to reform when such rationalizations are made by those enriching it. On Jan 26, 7:49 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote: > In article <hhpuh.66524$qO4.53...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>, H...@nospam.nix wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Well, Brent, you go change things in China, and I'll mind the store.That doesn't follow at all. Just stop trying to make china's government seem > like The operative term being "seem like". Brent do you realize the "Sujiatun dath camp" anti-China hysteria you referenced has been discredited by multiple undercover investigation? Falun Gong (who pays for Epoch Times) propaganda has been discredited by US government and Chinese dissident investigations: 1) http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7) http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile- english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds /wf-latest.html 2) http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492 3) http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_Stroke %20TrialProtocol%20synopsis.pdf (page 3) As you can see, the hospital Falun Gong accused is partly owned by a Malaysian health care company, Country Heights Health Sanctuary, and is subject to oversight beyond Chinese authority. Malay officials have documented prior year visit, and the facility has been open to public for years. > a 'good friend' that is reforming to rationalize buying crap made there. > China's government has no reason to reform when such rationalizations are > made by those enriching it. > The operative term being "seem like". Brent do you realize the > "Sujiatun dath camp" anti-China hysteria you referenced has been > discredited by multiple undercover investigation? > Falun Gong (who pays for Epoch Times) propaganda has been discredited > by US government and Chinese dissident investigations: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-2-13/38105.html Administrative Contact: Epochtimes, Inc. John Tang Suwanee, GA 30024, US > 1) http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7) Italy? Can't even pull a whois on this cite. Anyway, let's quote from your source: "In 1999, the .Falun Gong. movement gave rise to the largest and most protracted public demonstrations in China since the democracy movement of a decade earlier. The People.s Republic of China (PRC) government, fearful of a political challenge and the spread of social unrest, outlawed Falun Gong and carried out an intensive, comprehensive, and unforgiving campaign against the movement. Since 2003, Falun Gong has been largely suppressed or pushed deep underground in China while it has thrived in overseas Chinese communities and Hong Kong." Gee... that sounds like a wonderful government they have there in china. Undercover to the camp? Hardly. Let's see what they really did, from your source, CRS-7: "American officials from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as well as the hospital site on two occasions . the first time unannounced and the second with the cooperation of PRC officials . and after investigating the facility .found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital..25 Amnesty International spokespersons have stated that the claims of systematic organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners cannot be confirmed or denied." They visited a hospital with no ability to roam as they please and found nothing. They visited again with PRC officals and again found nothing. Gee, I would expect exactly that. > http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile- > english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds > /wf-latest.html Short repeat of above. > As you can see, the hospital Falun Gong accused is partly owned by a > Malaysian health care company, Country Heights Health Sanctuary, and > is subject to oversight beyond Chinese authority. Malay officials have > documented prior year visit, and the facility has been open to public > for years. Now you go and try to see every single area of your neighborhood hospital, then get back to me. However none of this changes the basic fact that China is not a place where people are free or even close to it. Just try to have a second child as citizen of that nation. "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message > However none of this changes the basic fact that China is not a place > where people are free or even close to it. Just try to have a second > child as citizen of that nation. Face it...nobody is free. Some of us have longer leashes than others. > "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> However none of this changes the basic fact that China is not a place >> where people are free or even close to it. Just try to have a second >> child as citizen of that nation. > > Face it...nobody is free. Some of us have longer leashes than others. With an attitude like that, it's no wonder the USA is going in the direction it is. > > "Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >> However none of this changes the basic fact that China is not a place [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > With an attitude like that, it's no wonder the USA is going in the > direction it is. It is just realism. I am very optimistic, within the radius of my leash, of course. China is what it is. The people there at least eat now. Not too many decades ago they were starving. On Jan 28, 7:26 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote: > In article <1170004069.843874.216...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, CL wrote: > > The operative term being "seem like". Brent do you realize the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Administrative Contact: > Epochtimes, Inc. Ah, Epoch. Do you know the propaganda outlet is paid for by Falun Gong? The financial connection between Falun Gong and Epoch Times is not a secret. Here's the money trail found in non-profit declarations (Form 990, Page 2, Part III c): Southern USA Falun Dafa Association. $10,350 were given to Epoch Times in 2002, $22,700 in 2003, $14,750 in 2004: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/ 2002/760/692/2002-760692185-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/ 2004/760/692/2003-760692185-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/ 2004/760/692/2004-760692185-1-9.pdf Falun Dafa Association of New England. $57,609 were spent on computer and print media, $97,755 in 2003, $116,823 in 2004: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/ 2002/043/576/2002-043576893-1-9.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2003/043/576/2003-043576893-1- Z.pdf http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/ 2004/043/576/2004-043576893-02038ba1-9.pdf (These are but two examples of the hundreds of FLG non-profits in US.) > John Tang > Suwanee, GA 30024, US > > > 1)http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf(section CRS-7) > > Italy? Can't even pull a whois on this cite. If you don't know how to do whois for EU address, please ask. Try eurodns.com The same CRS article can be found here: http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdocs/crs/permalink/meta-crs-8947 > Anyway, let's quote from > your source: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Undercover to the camp? Hardly. We've investigated by going there secrety. Unless you can come up with citation to back up your "Hardly", I'm gonna go with the State Dept. investigators. > Let's see what they really did, from your > source, CRS-7: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > They visited a hospital with no ability to roam as they please How do you know? Cite it. Also I see you didn't comment on anti- communist activist's investigation. I'll assume you are satisfied with Mr. Wu's undercover investigation. > and found > nothing. They visited again with PRC officals and again found nothing. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > where people are free or even close to it. Just try to have a second > child as citizen of that nation. All this goes to show this anti-China propaganda is bunk. > Ah, Epoch. Do you know the propaganda outlet is paid for by Falun > Gong? Those evil people who want freedom from oppression from the benevolent chinese government.... I am sure the chinese government has a consent form from every prisoner they harvest an organ from. >> Anyway, let's quote from >> your source: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> suppressed or pushed deep underground in China while it has thrived in >> overseas Chinese communities and Hong Kong." >> Gee... that sounds like a wonderful government they have there in china. >> Undercover to the camp? Hardly. > We've investigated by going there secrety. Unless you can come up with > citation to back up your "Hardly", I'm gonna go with the State Dept. > investigators. The chinese government just let US officals check every room, go through all the files. Yeah... sure. >> Let's see what they really did, from your >> source, CRS-7: >> "American officials from the >> U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> systematic organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners cannot be >> confirmed or denied." >> They visited a hospital with no ability to roam as they please > How do you know? Cite it. Americans cannot even *drive* on the streets of china without a run in with the corrupt authorities and you want me to believe that they had free access through out a hospitial and it's records? No, buddy, the job of citing free and unfettered access and a complete job is on your shoulders. > Also I see you didn't comment on anti- > communist activist's investigation. I'll assume you are satisfied with > Mr. Wu's undercover investigation. You mean that guy who read witness testimony and then gave his *OPINION* of it? That's not an undercover investigation. Here's mr. wu's article, the one you cited: http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492 It gives witness tesimonies then each one is followed by what he calls his "analysis and opinion". However, unlike you, he knows that china's government is "an evil regime that commits many atrocities including the persecution of the Falun Gong." >> Now you go and try to see every single area of your neighborhood >> hospital, then get back to me. >> >> However none of this changes the basic fact that China is not a place >> where people are free or even close to it. Just try to have a second >> child as citizen of that nation. > All this goes to show this anti-China propaganda is bunk. Why don't you go live in that polluted cesspool assembling crap for the US market at pennies on the dollar living in a company dorm with not even free speech? Hell a censored internet. I am tired of hearing excuses from *free* people for an oppressive, corrupt, central state. Even more tired of the fact generally those same people are supporting the construction of one here in the USA. Those big new tall bright shiney buildings in Chinese cities don't look so bright once you get up close to them.You want to drive a car in China? Well,Good Luck to you. cuhulin On Jan 30, 6:19 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote: > In article <1170141325.086211.314...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, CL wrote: > > Ah, Epoch. Do you know the propaganda outlet is paid for by Falun [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > chinese government.... I am sure the chinese government has a consent > form from every prisoner they harvest an organ from. >From your non-sequitor response, I take it you have no problem with the money trail between Epoch Times and Falun Gong. > >> Anyway, let's quote from > >> your source: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The chinese government just let US officals check every room, go through > all the files. Yeah... sure. "Yeah... sure." sure is convincing. How do you know what happened during the secret visit? If you have no proof just admit it. > >> Let's see what they really did, from your > >> source, CRS-7: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > of citing free and unfettered access and a complete job is on your > shoulders. I provide citations showing secret visit and undercover investigation. Where's your citation? > > Also I see you didn't comment on anti- > > communist activist's investigation. I'll assume you are satisfied with > > Mr. Wu's undercover investigation. > > You mean that guy who read witness testimony and then gave his *OPINION* > of it? That's not an undercover investigation. Had you not delted the links I provided, you would've read the part where Wu described how he sent investigators inside China within days to verify the story: http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm "I arranged for people inside China to visit the Sujiatun scene. From March 12, the investigators canvassed the entire Sujiatun area. On March 17, the investigators visited two military barracks in Sujiatun. On March 27, the investigators secretly visited the Chinese Medical Blood Clotting Treatment Center in Sujiatun. On March 29, the investigators went to the Kongjiashan prison near Sujiatun. None of the aforementioned investigations revealed any trace of the concentration camp." > Here's mr. wu's article, the one you cited:http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492 Harry Wu has been THE expert on this issue for decades. Who are you? > It gives witness tesimonies then each one is followed by what he calls > his "analysis and opinion". However, unlike you, he knows that china's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Why don't you go Why don't you go fly a kite? Who the hell are you to tell me what to think and what to do? Looks like you have nothing to refute the facts cited, you are going after the messenger. Be a man, make me. > live in that polluted cesspool assembling crap for the > US market at pennies on the dollar living in a company dorm with not even [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> The chinese government just let US officals check every room, go through >> all the files. Yeah... sure. > "Yeah... sure." sure is convincing. How do you know what happened > during the secret visit? If you have no proof just admit it. I don't claim to, but I do know that a typical medical facility doesn't let people off the street just wander everywhere and go through the files. But you certainly don't know what the 'inspection' involved and it's your job to show it was complete, not mine. > I provide citations showing secret visit and undercover investigation. > Where's your citation? You showed no undercover investigation as I showed with your own cite. You showed a visit by people off the street, which is meaningless. And my cites were the ones you were objecting to, remember? >> > Also I see you didn't comment on anti- >> > communist activist's investigation. I'll assume you are satisfied with >> > Mr. Wu's undercover investigation. >> You mean that guy who read witness testimony and then gave his *OPINION* >> of it? That's not an undercover investigation. > Had you not delted the links I provided, you would've read the part > where Wu described how he sent investigators inside China within days [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the aforementioned investigations revealed any trace of the > concentration camp." So what? Just people wandering around. Doesn't change what china's government is. I could provide you links of camps in the USA, of course you'd say they don't exist. Like the one in indiana that is offically a long closed amtrak repair facility. Interesting that it has been equipped with what is needed for a camp to hold people in. >> Here's mr. wu's article, the one you cited:http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492 > Harry Wu has been THE expert on this issue for decades. Who are you? Because the article isn't what you said it was, you fall back to argument by authority. Mr. Wu Agrees with me, that the chinese government is oppressive and a tyranny. Yet, you and others want to paint it as 'good'. >> Why don't you go > Why don't you go fly a kite? Who the hell are you to tell me what to > think and what to do? Looks like you have nothing to refute the facts > cited, you are going after the messenger. Talk about projection, you're the one going after the messenger with your attack on the epoch times. You try to say that their reporting is invalid because of who funds them. I simply went through your cites and found they weren't what *YOU* say they were. You misrepresent the cites you make. That's your ignorance or dishonesty and I don't care which. It's a trivial matter to quote them and show they aren't these grand undercover investigations that you claim them to be, but rather off the street visits with no special access, government guided visits, analysis of witness reports, and people wandering about the area. It's not my fault you pumped them up thinking I wouldn't bother to check. > Be a man, make me. *laugh* If you think China is such a wonderful place, go live there. The fact you need someone to make you live there by force shows you know it's not. >> Some friends recently told me that communism, and the authoritarian >> government, is all but dead. Capitalism is the way of life now. > >Guess you didn't ask a political prisoner who had his organs harvested. It's okay. They were harvested by capitalist allies. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >>This has always been the case, just not to the same degree. For years >>and years much of our produce has been "cheap" due to it either being [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Then we'll have to turn to Haiti and Sudan for low-cost manufacturing. >--scott Correct. The rich always feed off the misery of the poor. It will not stop till there are no poor, or no rich, whichever comes first. > This has always been the case, just not to the same degree. For years > and years much of our produce has been "cheap" due to it either being [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > backward. They are aggressively moving ahead into the modern world > and the Chinese people are smart, proud, and hard working. Things are just starting to balance out. Eventually the standard of living will improve in China and Mexico and it will end up being cheaper to produce locally again. > Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? They were > shown at the auto show. (I wont buy a China car regardless of quality) > If China is considered to be an enemy why are we importing their cars? > Whats next Iran and N. Korean cars? Considering that Toyota, GM, VW, and others are producing vehicles and parts in China you might soon have to buy the stuff or walk... > Considering that Toyota, GM, VW, and others are producing vehicles and parts > in China you might soon have to buy the stuff or walk... You mean buy it and walk or just walk. > > Considering that Toyota, GM, VW, and others are producing vehicles and parts > > in China you might soon have to buy the stuff or walk... > You mean buy it and walk or just walk. Your choice. > > Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? They were > > shown at the auto show. (I wont buy a China car regardless of quality) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Considering that Toyota, GM, VW, and others are producing vehicles and parts > in China you might soon have to buy the stuff or walk... GM is already importing an engine from China... > Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? Since very few if any of us have driven one of the cars made in china I think it would be all but impossible for any of us to say whether they are good, bad or indifferent. But I suspect that you may have a separate agenda that has little to do with automotive safety...right? >They were > shown at the auto show. (I wont buy a China car regardless of quality) If that is the case then why were you asking about the quality and safety of cars made in china. Separately, since cars from most countries will in the near future likely contain more components manufactured in china how will just stop buying cars entirely? > If China is considered to be an enemy why are we importing their cars? They are not an enemy but a competitor and a source for good quality inexpensive products of all kinds. Look inside the computer you are using to enter this message or inside almost any electronic consumer product or inside your car and you will find Made In China on many parts. > Whats next Iran and N. Korean cars? Actually, if we began trading with our "enemies" more and tying deals to certain milestones we might find that we both ultimately benefit. Cuba being a prime example of how defining a country as an enemy and holding them apart economically does not work. >> Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? > >Since very few if any of us have driven one of the cars made in china I >think it would be all but impossible for any of us to say whether they >are good, bad or indifferent. I've ridden in several of their higher priced copies of the VWs. They make a VERY nice copy and they feel very competent and well made even at 90 mph on their freeways. I didn't ride in any of the GM products they were building there but from the outside the fit and finish looked identical to what is made in the US. But I suspect that you may have a >separate agenda that has little to do with automotive safety...right? > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Cuba being a prime example of how defining a country as an enemy and >holding them apart economically does not work. > >> Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But I suspect that you may have a I'm not at all surprised. Hopefully the "Kayla's" of the world will realize at some point that while China has many problems it is indeed moving ahead and we will all be better off to hold our doors open as much as possible. >> >> Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >moving ahead and we will all be better off to hold our doors open as >much as possible. If I was younger I'd be thinking about working over there, it's a hotbed of business startups and they are building on a huge scale. 25% of all the building construction cranes in the world are in China. > If I was younger I'd be thinking about working over there, it's a > hotbed of business startups and they are building on a huge scale. 25% > of all the building construction cranes in the world are in China. I have never worked there, but the company I used to work for had people there. In fact we had people in most countries of the world. Im not sure it is a good place for a foreign entrepreneur, but the Chinese seem to be strongly adapting to international business. So living there as a representative of an international company could be very nice. I take the 'sparrow' approach. I was in communist Russia some years ago, and even though the government was authoritarian and not at all like the west, people lived, worked, ate, and reared their families with relatively little interference. A sparrow is seldom noticed when pecking out its existence. If you dont make a target of yourself, chances are you will also go unnoticed. A couple of months ago,I saw a photo on the internet of a traffic jam in Beijing,or one of those other big cities in China.People driving (or trying to get somewhere) and trying to merge with other traffic going around that circular round about.It was amazing! cuhulin >A couple of months ago,I saw a photo on the internet of a traffic jam in >Beijing,or one of those other big cities in China.People driving (or >trying to get somewhere) and trying to merge with other traffic going >around that circular round about.It was amazing! >cuhulin When I went to China the first place we drove was to leave the airport. We barely were up to speed when the honking started. And it continued all the way to the hotel. And everyplace else we drove. The Chinese honk for EVERYTHING. If there is the slightest chance a car near you might get within 6 feet of you the driver will honk. It's absolutely incredible. There is so much honking it is meaningless. I was in the Army.One of the places Unca Sam sent me was Vietnam,in 1964.I did my five days R&R in Hong Kong.They drive on the wrong side of the streets over there.I almost got nailed by a car over there. cuhulin > Any thoughts about the quality or safety of chinese cars? They were > shown at the auto show. (I wont buy a China car regardless of quality) > > If China is considered to be an enemy why are we importing their cars? > Whats next Iran and N. Korean cars? Supposedly China is no longer an enemy. I have had some experience with Chinese motorcycles and 4 wheelers. They are definitely inferior to other machines on the market. They are cheap so some people still buy them. I wouldn't want to be the first one on the block to buy a Chinese car. I suspect the first cars they import will be cheap and possibly poor quality. However the quality will rapidly improve. Just like the Japanese products did. I suspect that the Chinese will rapidly improve their quality following the Japanese model. At present the Chinese are exporting automobile components in quantity to the US. Unless you drive a vintage car chances are there are some Chinese parts are in your car. I prefer for my cars to say Chevy or Dodge on them. I want my cars made in the USA. I can't do much about the components that go into them. However I know several people that support their families by building cars here so I intend to help them keep a job if possible. |
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