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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / February 2007oil and knock from rocker arms/lifters
have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from either the rockers arms/lifters/springs when using a 20W-50 castrol gtx type oil, until engine is really warm, I can hear the sound when I use a 0W-30 synthetic type oil, the noise disappears pretty quickly, before engine is completerly warm (that's not a typo as in 10W-30 but it's really a zero-W-30 oil) have planned on replacing the lifters, or at least the offending lifter in case I find that it's just one that is a little out of spec. does the type of oil really make that much of a difference, it is after all just a *splash* type lubrication in that location? > have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from either > the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > does the type of oil really make that much of a difference, it is after all > just a *splash* type lubrication in that location? What kind of engine is this, and what does the mfgr. spec for oil in the temperature range that you're experiencing? sounds like the engine is happier with the lighter weight oil, and assuming that you don't have any oil pressure issue with the lighter oil I would just keep on using it and be happy. Sounds to me like with the heavier oil you're not getting enough flow to the head, so the lighter oil is probably offering you better protection assuming that the OP stays up where it should be. With most engines, there's really not much of a downside to using a quality, lighter-weight oil if your pressure remains within spec. You'll find the engine easier to start when cold and may even notice a very small increase in fuel economy. good luck nate > have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from > either the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > does the type of oil really make that much of a difference, it is after > all just a *splash* type lubrication in that location? That happens to me when I use Fram oil filters. They appear to drain out overnight so the valves start up dry and noisy. As the oil gets there the noise goes away. Thinner oil would get there faster than that thick stuff. If you really had lifter issues, the thicker oil should help so I think the thicker oil is the problem by not getting to the lifters fast enough when cold. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from > > either the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > out overnight so the valves start up dry and noisy. As the oil gets > there the noise goes away. If you had a properly working engine, it would take only a second or maybe a couple of seconds at the most for the oil to get to the lifters and quiet them down when the oil filter is completely empty (like when you install a new filter that is full of air). -jim > Thinner oil would get there faster than that thick stuff. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > > have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from > > > either the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -jim My old '67 Dart would take about 7 seconds to fill an empty oil filter from a cold start, which seemed like way too long. Then I switched to Wix and it quieted down almost immediately. I agree, Frams suck, but based on the OP's description I don't think that's the problem in this case. nate > > > > have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from > > > > either the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > My old '67 Dart would take about 7 seconds to fill an empty oil filter > from a cold start, which seemed like way too long. I agree -that's way too long. But I remember installing fram filters on dodge darts and if the engine was good it took about a second for the engine oil light to go out and the engine quieted down at the same instant. >Then I switched to > Wix and it quieted down almost immediately. I agree again. The filter media is denser in a fram. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing depends on the condition of your engine and oil pump. Note - filling an empty filter the first time has nothing to do with the drain back valve. -jim > I agree, Frams suck, but based on the OP's description I don't think > that's the problem in this case. > > nate >> > > have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from >> > > either the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >from a cold start, which seemed like way too long. Then I switched to >Wix and it quieted down almost immediately. If your '67 Dart was a slant six it did NOT have hydraulic lifters. There was never a slant six made with hydraulic lash adjustment. You were hearing something other than valvetrain noise. FWIW those motors took about a minute to pump oil to the rocker arm shafts after an oil and filter change. I have watched this many times. The mains and rods will get oil in a few seconds. The main and rod bearings WILL make noise at high mileage which will go away once the crankshaft has oil pressure. >I agree, Frams suck, but based on the OP's description I don't think >that's the problem in this case. How the hell can we know? He has told us NOTHING about the application. Doesn't even have hydraulic lifters for all we know. Could have solid lifters, no lifters (true overhead cam) or just about anything. For all we know he's hearing a marginal rod knock or a timing chain rattle until the oil pressure comes up. Don www.donsautomotive.com >nate > >I agree, Frams suck, but based on the OP's description I don't think > >that's the problem in this case. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > anything. For all we know he's hearing a marginal rod knock or a > timing chain rattle until the oil pressure comes up. My wild guess considering the meager information supplied is piston slap. Hydraulic lifters (on cars that have them) in good condition should hold their oil a long time. At any rate, if they do collapse it is due to valve spring load and not the oil filter. -jim > If your '67 Dart was a slant six it did NOT have hydraulic lifters. True... > There was never a slant six made with hydraulic lash adjustment. ....until 1980. :-) They added hydraulic lifters to the slant six starting with a few experimental engines in about 77, and it went into production in either '79 or '80 (I forget which). Its a really bass-ackward system where the lifters were pressurized through the pushrods FROM the rocker arms instead of the other way around. But it did work, and worked well. Too bad that by then the slant was gagged with emission controls, a puny cam, and no plans to modernize it as was done with the smallblock v8s. >> If your '67 Dart was a slant six it did NOT have hydraulic lifters. >True... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >bad that by then the slant was gagged with emission controls, a puny >cam, and no plans to modernize it as was done with the smallblock v8s. I missed that era completely or else my memory fails me! Worked on and owned lots of slant 6's, I guess they were all earlier. Don www.donsautomotive.com >>> have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from >>> either the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -jim No you are wrong. It only happens with Fram filters and only overnight if you bothered to actually read what I posted.. Mike >> Thinner oil would get there faster than that thick stuff. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- > > If you had a properly working engine, it would take only a second or > > maybe a couple of seconds at the most for the oil to get to the lifters [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No you are wrong. It only happens with Fram filters and only overnight > if you bothered to actually read what I posted.. I read what you posted MORON. I was explaining what it should be like not what your POS engine is like. -jim > > > If you had a properly working engine, it would take only a second or > > > maybe a couple of seconds at the most for the oil to get to the lifters [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -jim Ah, another Usenet tough guy. Based on your replies to my post and Mike's, a careful analysis shows that: a) you don't know what you're talking about b) you are an a.shole. Fram filters can and do drain back overnight, especially in "upside down" installations like a 225 slant-six. It doesn't matter if you have a brand-f.cking-new engine, you WILL get lifter clatter on startup if you have an oil filter with a dodgy ADBV. Fully pressurizing the entire engine in that instance can and does take more than a second. Period, end of story. nate "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message > Fram filters can and do drain back overnight, especially in "upside > down" installations like a 225 slant-six. It doesn't matter if you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > nate I have heard these complaints long enough that, even though I never experienced a problem with a Fram, I have changed to Bosch. I dont have to see a bear to take notice when I am in bear country. > Fram filters can and do drain back overnight, especially in "upside > down" installations like a 225 slant-six. It doesn't matter if you > have a brand-f.cking-new engine, you WILL get lifter clatter on > startup if you have an oil filter with a dodgy ADBV. Fully > pressurizing the entire engine in that instance can and does take more > than a second. Period, end of story. I was talking about a good engine starting with no oil in the filter. I have no experience with the problem you are describing nor have I met anyone else who has. I only hear these stories on Usenet from people who claim they never use frams. But if it does take significantly longer for the oil pressure to reach maximum on your partially filled filter than it would on a good engine with a completely empty filter I can only conclude that the condition of the engine and oil pump would be the root cause. -jim >> Fram filters can and do drain back overnight, especially in "upside >> down" installations like a 225 slant-six. It doesn't matter if you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > have no experience with the problem you are describing nor have I met > anyone else who has. Well, I for one have met a bunch of folks that have had the same drain back issue with Fram filters on their Jeep 6 cylinder engines of all flavors, the older 4.2 and the newer 4.0. These engines will clatter until the valve lifters get oil pressure. Fram used to be a good filter back in the 60's and 70's. Too bad they changed. The reason I mentioned it was a just in case the OP happened to be using one. Changing the filter could be a quick fix. I have had the issue with 10W30 oil, I can just imagine how bad it would be with a slow moving oil like the OP's 20W50, especially seeing as his trouble goes away when using a thinner oil. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >>> That happens to me when I use Fram oil filters. They appear to >>> drain out overnight so the valves start up dry and noisy. As the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > No you are wrong. It only happens with Fram filters and only > overnight if you bothered to actually read what I posted. The Web site BobIsTheOilGuy.com did flow tests on a bunch of filters some time ago. FRAM filters had the highest flow-through rate, which would lead me to believe the filter media was *less* dense than the others. When I used to buy FRAM-branded filters I noticed if you held a freshly- removed filter open-end up, the center pipe would slowly fill with oil from the dirty side of the media, and would continue to do so until the filter was empty (so long as you kept dumping it out so it could fill again). This does not happen with Honda-branded FRAM-built filters sold by Honda Canada. To me it seems logical that a FRAM-branded filter would eventually drain to at least 60% empty when left overnight, even if the anti-drainback valve was sealing well.  SignatureTegger > The Web site BobIsTheOilGuy.com did flow tests on a bunch of filters some > time ago. FRAM filters had the highest flow-through rate, which would lead > me to believe the filter media was *less* dense than the others. Don't know anything about Bob, but tests I've seen comparing filters rate Fram to be significantly better at removing the tiniest particles in oil compared to other popular filters like Wix. That suggests a denser medium. The resistance to flow depends on the viscosity of the oil and how clean the filter media is (or how dirty the oil was). I don't know how anyone could come up with a meaningful flow test given the variables involved. My take on the Fram controversy is this: After using a filter like Wix for 100K or more miles someone will then switch to a Fram and experience oil pressure problems. The cause is an accumulation of very fine particles in the engine that load up in the Fram filter. In general millions of Fram filters installed on new engines or engines that have had Fram filters all their life do not develop the same oil pressure problems. > When I used to buy FRAM-branded filters I noticed if you held a freshly- > removed filter open-end up, the center pipe would slowly fill with oil from > the dirty side of the media, and would continue to do so until the filter > was empty (so long as you kept dumping it out so it could fill again). This > does not happen with Honda-branded FRAM-built filters sold by Honda Canada. You are describing oil flow from the dirty side of the filter to the clean side. That is the direction it is supposed to flow. I don't know if you just made that all up or what your point is, but there is no valve or other normal mechanism that I know of that is supposed to prevent that from happening. > To me it seems logical that a FRAM-branded filter would eventually drain to > at least 60% empty when left overnight, even if the anti-drainback valve > was sealing well. Based on what? -jim >> The Web site BobIsTheOilGuy.com did flow tests on a bunch of filters >> some time ago. FRAM filters had the highest flow-through rate, which [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > rate Fram to be significantly better at removing the tiniest particles > in oil compared to other popular filters like Wix. Citation please? I'd love to see that. I once gave Daniel J. Stern a hard time about FRAM (for which I'm sure he'd hate me forever if he could remember who I was), but after some considerable thought and investigation have concluded that he was right in condemning FRAM's efficacy. > That suggests a > denser medium. And BobIsTheOilGuy's results showed the exact opposite. The test used to be listed in the Forums but I can't find it just now, so you'll have to search a bit. > The resistance to flow depends on the viscosity of the > oil and how clean the filter media is (or how dirty the oil was). And media porosity... > I > don't know how anyone could come up with a meaningful flow test given > the variables involved. And so said the Bob guy. He said *precisely* that regarding his own tests. > My take on the Fram controversy is this: After using a filter > like Wix [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that have had Fram filters all their life do not develop the same oil > pressure problems. Oil pressure is primarily a function of crankshaft/connecting rod bearing clearances. These are not affected by particulates except that particulates accelerate bearing wear and thus eventually decrease pressure. >> When I used to buy FRAM-branded filters I noticed if you held a >> freshly- removed filter open-end up, the center pipe would slowly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > valve or other normal mechanism that I know of that is supposed to > prevent that from happening. My point was that this steady pressureless flow occurred only with FRAM filters (and other very cheap brands). Honda-branded filters require pressure to make the oil flow. In fact, Toyota-branded filters also will not leak oil past the media in the absence of pressure. I am told Toyota filters are made by Filtech. Therefore, it is likely that a FRAM filter would take longer to allow your engine to pressurize its oil, since it would have to fill a partially-empty filter can before oil could flow to the engine. >> To me it seems logical that a FRAM-branded filter would eventually >> drain to at least 60% empty when left overnight, even if the >> anti-drainback valve was sealing well. > > Based on what? What I just said. See above. SignatureTegger > >> The Web site BobIsTheOilGuy.com did flow tests on a bunch of filters > >> some time ago. FRAM filters had the highest flow-through rate, which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Citation please? I'd love to see that. Well it wasn't Bob doing tests in his backyard so I suppose they wouldn't be valid anyway? > I once gave Daniel J. Stern a hard time about FRAM (for which I'm sure > he'd hate me forever if he could remember who I was), but after some [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > And so said the Bob guy. He said *precisely* that regarding his own > tests. So if the test is not meaningful it is meaningless. > > My take on the Fram controversy is this: After using a filter > > like Wix [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > particulates accelerate bearing wear and thus eventually decrease > pressure. No wrong. If you have a oil filter plugged with fine particles that is the primary function that affects oil pressure. > >> When I used to buy FRAM-branded filters I noticed if you held a > >> freshly- removed filter open-end up, the center pipe would slowly [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > not leak oil past the media in the absence of pressure. I am told Toyota > filters are made by Filtech. So your claim is that the filter media acts like a check valve in all filters but Fram? -jim > Therefore, it is likely that a FRAM filter would take longer to allow > your engine to pressurize its oil, since it would have to fill a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Tegger > No wrong. If you have a oil filter plugged with fine particles that is > the primary function that affects oil pressure. But is it not standard practice these days to change the oil and filter at the same time? And if so, would that not drain out most of the particulates you mention before they had a chance to plug a new filter? > So your claim is that the filter media acts like a check valve in all > filters but Fram? So I claim to have personally observed, yes, but not in "all filters but FRAM", just the cheap filters I've personally had experience with. SignatureTegger > > No wrong. If you have a oil filter plugged with fine particles that is > > the primary function that affects oil pressure. > > But is it not standard practice these days to change the oil and filter at > the same time? And if so, would that not drain out most of the particulates > you mention before they had a chance to plug a new filter? I said they accumulate inside the engine. You don't think there are any engines out there that have more accumulated particles than what the oil can hold in suspension? And from what I can tell those are the very engines that have problems with Fram filters. > > So your claim is that the filter media acts like a check valve in all > > filters but Fram? > > So I claim to have personally observed, yes, but not in "all filters but > FRAM", just the cheap filters I've personally had experience with. But your claim is the reason that people don't claim to have the oil pressure problems they claim they have with Frams is because the media in other filters effectively acts as a check valve preventing oil from draining back due to gravity. So why do they even bother with the anti drain back valve. -jim > But your claim is the reason that people don't claim to have the oil > pressure problems they claim they have with Frams is because the media > in other filters effectively acts as a check valve preventing oil > from draining back due to gravity. So why do they even bother with the > anti drain back valve. You are aware oil filters have both an "in" and an "out"? The ADBV prevents the "in" from becoming an "out". Only sufficiently dense medium will prevent the "out" from being an "out" even in the absence of pressure, which was my point. SignatureTegger > > But your claim is the reason that people don't claim to have the oil > > pressure problems they claim they have with Frams is because the media [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You are aware oil filters have both an "in" and an "out"? The ADBV prevents > the "in" from becoming an "out". Yes but you are saying the filter media already does that job. > Only sufficiently dense medium will prevent the "out" from being an "out" > even in the absence of pressure, which was my point. Well the only way oil is going to flow out the "out" side of the filter is if there is somewhere for either oil or air to get in to replace it. It isn't going to draw more oil up from the oil pan. The way most engine oil plumbing is designed is that it is uphill from the "out" side of the filter and downhill from the "in" side. Even on a Dart where the "out" is facing somewhat downward the oil galley is above the filter. The only way your theory will work is if there is some sort of air leak at the filter gasket or in the plumbing from the pan to the filter. I suppose "leaky pipes" is a viable theory why this "Bad Fram filter thing" doesn't happen to new engines in good condition only old worn out engines. You may have something there. Like I said before I have never actually witnessed the problem myself so I have no way to diagnose the problem except by accounts from others. But I do know the people who do claim to have the problem always have an old Camaro or Mustang or Fiero or Dodge Dart or whatever that is always at least 20 years old. -jim > -- > Tegger > I once gave Daniel J. Stern a hard time about FRAM (for which I'm sure > he'd hate me forever if he could remember who I was), but after some > considerable thought and investigation have concluded that he was right > in condemning FRAM's efficacy. I was one who did not like the bad press that FRAM got, based on meaningless 'saw open and see' evaluations. I had used FRAM because they were readily available and because I had never had any problems with them. I have still seen no incontrovertible test data on the performance of the commonly available filters. I am rather certain that objective data exists, but -if so- I haven't found it for free over the internet. The ADBV on the FRAM has been cited many times as appearing to be inferior in materials and concept. Since it costs little (or nothing) more to go with filters which seem to have a better designs and materials -lack of statistical data notwithstanding-I no longer use FRAM filters. > does the type of oil really make that much of a difference, it is after all > just a *splash* type lubrication in that location? I agree with Mike and Nate. Oil does make a difference, especially if you have other circumstances, like an oil pump which is marginal, a filter which is not holding the oil, etc. I have seen a number of oil pumps which just dont put up as much pressure as the manufacturer would be happy with. > have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from > either the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > does the type of oil really make that much of a difference, it is after > all just a *splash* type lubrication in that location? You don't say what type of engine, but most engines are definitely NOT just "splash" lubricated around the lifters, especially those with hydraulic lifters. And IMO, 20-50 is stupid-heavy oil for an engine in good shape. Even in the desert southwest, I never use anything heavier than 10w30. Heavy oil may raise the oil pressure on the gauge and give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling, but it reduces oil FLOW rate substantially. I'd rather have good oil flow at 3 psi than poor oil flow at 50 psi. >have a question regarding oil and type as related to a knocking from either >the rockers arms/lifters/springs [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >does the type of oil really make that much of a difference, it is after all >just a *splash* type lubrication in that location? It might or might not be. Believe it or not, different cars or trucks with different engines USE DIFFERENT TYPES OF LIFTERS! It is a waste of electrons to post questions like this without providing make, model and engine type. Don www.donsautomotive.com |
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