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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / March 2007Japanese cars are the best
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17385761/ Japanese vehicle brands continue to rule the roost when it comes to car reliability, according to the latest annual survey from Consumer Reports... Toyota, Honda, Scion, Acura and Lexus took the top five places, in order, in the Consumer Reports list of the 36 most reliable car brands for 2007. Ford's Mercury brand was the highest-placed U.S. nameplate, ranking 10th, while General Motors' best-ranking brand was GMC, which came in at 14th on the list. Chrysler highest ranking was for its Dodge brand, which was placed 22nd on the list... The average 10-year-old Toyota or Honda has the same, or fewer, problems than a 4 or 5-year-old car from any of the U.S. automakers, or Volkswagen, he said... Mercedes-Benz, in particular, has seen its reliability ranking decline sharply - this year, the German luxury brand placed last in the reliability list of 36 automobile brands, its reliability level 123 percent below the average for the whole industry, said Paul. > Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17385761/ > Japanese vehicle brands continue to rule the roost when it comes to > car reliability, according to the latest annual survey from Consumer [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the reliability list of 36 automobile brands, its reliability level > 123 percent below the average for the whole industry, said Paul. So people should buy vehicles based Consumer Reports? Maybe they can tell you what to eat next... > Japanese vehicle brands continue to rule the roost when it comes to > car reliability, according to the latest annual survey from Consumer > Reports... Reading further than the above is pretty pointless as Consumer Reports' credibility in the automotive arena is highly questionable at best. (I don't think I've ever owned a car that they particularly liked.)  SignatureRoger Blake (Subtract 10 for email.) and we should believe everything we read? jp ps pretty soon all that will be left will be foreign but we'll have fast food jobs(no offense meant) > In article <1172751911.335525.139...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, simple_langu...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Japanese vehicle brands continue to rule the roost when it comes to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Roger Blake > (Subtract 10 for email.) > and we should believe everything we read? jp ps pretty soon all that > will be left will be foreign but we'll have fast food jobs(no offense > meant) Seriously, unless GM, Ford and Chrysler rise to the occasion, their condition will continue to deteriorate. And the workers stand to lose good jobs because of issues and attitudes largely beyond their control. I find GM's attitude particularly offensive. Whether the quality is THAT far different from the Asian producers, I cannot say. It is the perception that it is true that makes the Camry the best selling sedan in the USA, I think. >> and we should believe everything we read? jp ps pretty soon all that >> will be left will be foreign but we'll have fast food jobs(no offense [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I cannot say. It is the perception that it is true that makes the Camry >the best selling sedan in the USA, I think. Last time I looked at some of the JD Powers numbers it was pretty clear that there is essentially no difference in quality between around the top 20 vehicles. They report the numbers like this.. Camry - 15 problems per hundred vehicles for XX amount of time Dodge - 30 problems per hundred vehicles for XX amount of time But they usually don't tell you the "units" so it just looks like Camry - 15 pph Dodge - 30 pph When you see those numbers you think WOW, a guy with a Dodge is got a huge number of extra problems then the guy with the Camry. But in reality, the Camry owner of an individual car in XX time, often a year, will have 0.15 problems. Not much. But the Dodge owner, which looked so bad at first, will have in that same year, 0.3 problems. Hmmm, doesn't look like much of a quality difference anymore does it. Very possibly neither of them will have to go in for a warranty claim for 2 or 3 years. It's a major issue when you are footing the warranty costs for a million cars to have an extra 15 repairs for every 100 of them. But to the retail consumer it's not a realistic issue to even worry about. Yet consumers have been brainwashed by this false way of looking at reliability ratings into thinking there is some significant difference to them in Camry's versus Dodges. > Last time I looked at some of the JD Powers numbers it was pretty > clear that there is essentially no difference in quality between > around the top 20 vehicles. They report the numbers like this.. Reliability and quality are perhaps related, but are two different issues in my mind. Of course, we would like both. The reliability indices often seem to exaggerate the differences between models. I think most cars are relatively reliable when they are new. After a few years, we may see more differences... >> Last time I looked at some of the JD Powers numbers it was pretty >> clear that there is essentially no difference in quality between [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >models. I think most cars are relatively reliable when they are new. After >a few years, we may see more differences... I've driven a lot of 10+ year old American cars and don't see any problems except with a very few of them. People with imports of similar age seem to have as many or more problems and when they do they tend to be VERY expensive to fix. > Camry - 15 problems per hundred vehicles for XX amount of time > Dodge - 30 problems per hundred vehicles for XX amount of time > When you see those numbers you think WOW, a guy with a Dodge is got a > huge number of extra problems then the guy with the Camry. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > difference anymore does it. Very possibly neither of them will have to > go in for a warranty claim for 2 or 3 years. Now if only there was Dodge that was decent in other ways. On 3/1/07 7:54 AM, in article slrneudmo7.6ht.rogblake10@moog.netaxs.com, >> Japanese vehicle brands continue to rule the roost when it comes to >> car reliability, according to the latest annual survey from Consumer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is highly questionable at best. (I don't think I've > ever owned a car that they particularly liked.) If you've never owned a car that they liked, then how would you know? I have found their reliability ratings to be dead on with every car I have owned in the past 20 years, both good and bad. > I have found their reliability ratings to be dead on with every car > I have > owned in the past 20 years, both good and bad. Depends what you mean by "dead-on." They gave Cressidas like one I owned high marks - mine was an unreliable piece of crap not fit to haul pigs. They gave the 1986 Sable I owned a good review but the little circles they like to show indicated it was unreliable. I only drove mine 140k miles and sold it to a friend who drove it almost another 100k before stuffing it into a tree - I suppose that makes it unreliable. They give the Nissan Frontier I bought last year a check mark, but it has been back to the dealer more times already than the last 3 Fords I owned combined. They don't recommend a Ford Mustang, but my son's has been perfect - no problems at all. They gush all over the 2007 RAV4, but I find my SO's new 2007 RAV4 to be merely OK - certainly nothing special - noisy at highway speed, mediocre gas mileage, strangely arranged controls, uncomfortable seats, but at least after 5 months it has been reliable (no better than my Son's Mustang though, despite costing $6k more). For non-car items, I find CR's recommendations to be almost 180 degrees opposite from my experiences. In his latter years, my Father put a great deal of faith in the CR recommendations. I can't think of one appliance he bought based on their recommendations that worked out well. Still I am a subscriber. I like to read other people's opinions, even if I don't find them credible all the time. But I never forget, CR is only printing their opinions. And the often touted auto survey is still just a poorly organized opinion survey. It is sort of like the Republicans surveying just Republicans and claiming that GWB's approval rating is rising..... Ed On 3/1/07 9:34 AM, in article 45e6f2d1$1@kcnews01, "C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote: >> I have found their reliability ratings to be dead on with every car >> I have [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > least after 5 months it has been reliable (no better than my Son's > Mustang though, despite costing $6k more). When I say reliability, I mean the listings they put up with the problem areas marked with red and black dots (red is good and black is bad). My experience has been that if a black dot showed up in a particular area on a particular car that I had, it eventually developed a problem in that area. I didn't mean to connote that I agree with everything they say. To agree with their "driving experience" discussions, I think you have to be a middle aged housewife somewhere in New Jersey. > For non-car items, I find CR's recommendations to be almost 180 > degrees opposite from my experiences. In his latter years, my Father [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ed >> I have found their reliability ratings to be dead on with every car >> I have [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Ed My Dad bought a Pontiac Vibe. It's the identical vehicle as the Toyota matrix. So I was curious how they stacked up in CR. If you look in CR it's clear that somehow putting the Pontiac Name on it has caused the quality to drop by half a dot overall. Somehow the identical paint has lower quality when there is a Pontiac Nameplate glued to the back hatch. I bought a few appliances based on CRs ratings and they turned out to be among the worse appliances I've ever owned. > Reading further than the above is pretty pointless as > Consumer Reports' credibility in the automotive arena > is highly questionable at best. (I don't think I've > ever owned a car that they particularly liked.) What magazine does have credibility when it comes to new cars? >> Reading further than the above is pretty pointless as >> Consumer Reports' credibility in the automotive arena >> is highly questionable at best. (I don't think I've >> ever owned a car that they particularly liked.) > >What magazine does have credibility when it comes to new cars? I don't think ANYBODY really does, because so many vehicles have hidden design problems that don't turn up for a couple of years. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." John and Horace Dodge,the Dodge brothers.They came up with quite a few advances for their products,and other auto companies too.Including the Ford Model T cars and trucks.John and Horace Dodge pioneered the steel webbing for flexible front brake hoses/lines so that the hoses/lines wouldn't balloon when the brakes are applied.If you want to do some searches for, History of John and Horace Dodge or,History of Dodge Automobiles. cuhulin On Mar 1, 7:25 am, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com" <simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Source:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17385761/ > > Japanese vehicle brands continue to rule the roost when it comes to > car reliability I have a 2004 Honda Accord Coupe with 59,000 miles. It has NOT been to the dealership, repairshop, etc for anything. Maybe because I do all of my own preventative maintenance, the dealership can't sabotage me! This car has been as reliable as a brick. bob z. > On Mar 1, 7:25 am, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com" > <simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > This car has been as reliable as a brick. And for some reason you think this is unusual? My parents have owned nothing but Fords for the last 50 years. They haven't taken one back to the dealer for a repair since 1980. In fact I can't remember one needing any sort of repair since 2000. The last repair I can recall was the power seat base on my Mother's 1992 Grand Marquis, and that was when the car was 7 years old after my Mom jammed an umbrella in the seat track. Ed > And for some reason you think this is unusual? My parents have owned > nothing but Fords for the last 50 years. They haven't taken one back > to the dealer for a repair since 1980. In fact I can't remember one > needing any sort of repair since 2000. My last Ford was in 1968. It was a piece of sh.t. I tried to buy a Thunderbird in 1990 (based on looks and presumption of quality, ride,etc) but after test driving a half dozen of them, came to the conclusion they were all pieces of sh.t. No more Fords for me, in the foreseeable future. I have had worse luck with GM than with Fords, but at least they sit and drive nicely, between failures. > No more Fords for me, in the foreseeable future. You ought to try a Fusion and/or a 500. I was pleasantly surprised. > > No more Fords for me, in the foreseeable future. > > You ought to try a Fusion and/or a 500. I was pleasantly surprised. I looked at the 500, by the way, but havent driven it. It is supposed to be Volvo's influence, (which might be better for Ford than Ford's influence has been on Volvo.) But it is externally attractive. It is assembled in Chicago, but the components appear to include Aisin tranny (in some models), and Volvo bits, as well as some Ford influence. I havent paid much attention to the Fusion, but believe that is a cooperative effort with Mazda. It is said to be based loosely on the Mazda 6. The Fusion is built in Mexico, I think. >>>No more Fords for me, in the foreseeable future. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Volvo's influence, (which might be better for Ford than Ford's influence > has been on Volvo.) I don't know, Volvo was hard on the skids with the early S-80 fire recalls and huge reliability problems. I think Volvo benefitted almost as much as Jaguar from Ford's influence. As to why Ford can turn around foreign makes but can't clean its own house... there's a question for the ages! > but the components appear to include Aisin tranny (in some models), and > Volvo bits, as well as some Ford influence. S-80 related chassis, Ford drivetrain and sheet metal. > I havent paid much attention to the Fusion, but believe that is a > cooperative > effort with Mazda. Yes, Ford styling and sheet metal, Ford V6 engine or Mazda 4-cylinder, don't know about the transaxle, shared platform with the Mazda 6. The v6, at least, is a *nice* driving car. On Mar 1, 10:39 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote: > And for some reason you think this is unusual? > > Ed No, I do not find it unusual. I find your comments unusual. A Ford that lasts more than 2 minutes is VERY unusual. bob z. >On Mar 1, 10:39 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >bob z. Odd, We've driven several fords to 250K on original drivetrains. I've had several chevies that also racked up impressive mileage. Currently I've got a 94 caprice with 125K on it that's been to the dealer maybe three times for repairs other then normal wear like brake pads. Once for a speed sensor and twice for window track derailments. > On Mar 1, 7:25 am, "simple_langu...@yahoo.com" > <simple_langu...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I have a 2004 Honda Accord Coupe with 59,000 miles. It has NOT been > to the dealership, repairshop, etc for anything. So? My wife's American car could make the same claim when it had 150,000 miles. => Maybe because I do > all of my own preventative maintenance, the dealership can't sabotage > me! Never a bad thing. > This car has been as reliable as a brick. At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but nothing huge. Call me back in 10 years and tell me how that Honda is doing. > At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above > currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but > nothing huge. Call me back in 10 years and tell me how that Honda is doing. I will. You can guarantee it. While you are at it, give me your phone number, your home address and your bank debit card number! What do you consider a few repairs that are nothing huge? Only an idiot would give me that information! Some would say only an idiot would buy an american car! bob z. >> At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above >> currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > bob z. to quote George Carlin, some people are f*cking stupid. Buying a car based solely on reliability scores is like buying a house based on square footage alone. I bought a Trans Am because I WANTED one. I bought a Subaru wagon because I needed a family car with 4wd. Cost to buy, Cost to repair, Cost to insure are all parts of the car ownership experience. So's utility and "grins-per-mile." And, fwiw, I'm stuck with the wife's old car as a winter beater until it dies. It's a 90 Beretta with 150k miles, and the damn thing just won't die. (I used to wish it would, now I'm hoping to make 200k miles on it.) I do wonder, who around here has the oldest/highest mileage vehicle that they're still using as a semi-regular daily driver? I have a 90 Beretta with 150k. A friend of mine has an 88 Bonneville - dunno the mileage, but it's their family car... Ray > >> At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above > >> currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Ray I'm sure it's not the oldest, but I currently have an '88 Porsche 944 that was my daily driver up until I got a company car. I'm not real happy with it at the moment (it's in the shop for an ignition issue) but it was dead nuts reliable up until very recently. It's got a shade over 130K on it, assuming that the odo can be trusted. The Porsche replaced an '84 VW Scirocco that I'm still trying to figure out why I sold. I bought it with 180K on the clock, racked up another 60K or so, and the only major repair done to it was replacing the transmission at about 200K because a bearing had worn enough that one of the output flanges wouldn't seal anymore. (that was a couple hours worth of work, and a junkyard tranny from a Jetta was cheap. I probably spent as much on the new clutch kit that I threw in "while you're in there" than the trans itself.) I sold it to a friend for $600 simply because I had too many cars at the time and have been kicking myself ever since. nate > I do wonder, who around here has the oldest/highest mileage vehicle that > they're still using as a semi-regular daily driver? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ray Lets see... My current daily driver (with 4 wheels) is a 1986 Volvo 740 Turbo Wagon that I recently purchased because my Astro van is down for repairs at 170,000. The odo quit working on the Volvo at 198,380 miles and that was an undetermined quantity of time/miles ago. My playing vehicle is a 1977 Jeep CJ-7 with ~320,000 miles on it. The only original parts are the front axle and the transfer case though. I have no idea how many miles on the current motor, but I have personally added about 160,000 to it. My wifes car is a 1997 Subaru Wagon that currently has 181,000 miles on it and is still going strong. My truck is a 1988 Ford F-250 with the 7.3 Litre Diesel. Approximate mileage on this one is 325,000. There are more, but I don't drive them very often. Then there are the motorcycles... SignatureTomO >>> At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above >>> currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> bob z. Tell you what Boob, when you've got 20 years and 291K miles on your Honduh, let us know. Just remember, the first time you run into something at over 10mph, they'll write the damn thing off... >to quote George Carlin, some people are f*cking stupid. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >they're still using as a semi-regular daily driver? >I have a 90 Beretta with 150k. Strangely enough, I have a couple for 20+ year old cars that are driven daily, an '86 F150, at 291K miles, on the original engine, but the second tranny, and the wife drives an '87 Merkur XR4Ti, also on it's second tranny (C3) at 206K miles. Why buy a new car, when the old ones work just fine?? SteveL > Tell you what Boob, when you've got 20 years and 291K miles > on your Honduh, let us know. Just remember, the first time > you run into something at over 10mph, they'll write the damn > thing off... Boob? that isn't very nice... :~)> I SO wish the 'write the damn thing off' statement was true. Last summer I was hit in the driver's side door by a full-size late-model dodge truck. Didn't do a thing to the truck, but I wasn't feeling so good afterwards and neither was the car! They fixed it and I am still driving it. :~( bob z. >>>> At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above >>>> currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >SteveL Reminds me there's a gal at work with a Chevy 4x4 pickup with 225K on it with original engine and tranny. They also had a Buick that racked up close to 200K on original drivetrain. Another person has a 92 Explorer with over 400K on original driveline. > >> At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above > >> currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I do wonder, who around here has the oldest/highest mileage vehicle that > they're still using as a semi-regular daily driver? I've read threads like this here before, and they quickly become emotional, just as this one has. I've always said that when the emotion train pulls into the station, the logic train is the first one to leave. I'm driving a 1995 Toyota T100 pickup that's currently showing 326K on the odometer. It still runs and drives very well. I also do my own maintenance. My experience with my son's 1990 Silverado and my wife's 1988 Plymouth minivan tells me that the Toyota is built better, and is waaaayy easier to work on than either one of those vehicles. Anyway, I've decided the T100 truck will be a project for me. I'm going to drive it until it literally won't go anymore just to see how long that will be. I have every confidence that i'll see a half million miles. > - Show quoted text - >>> At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above >>> currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Ray My driver is a 89 S-10 with 175k on original everything but the front end. Had to replace some front end parts at 150K. And pads and rotors as normal wear items. > I do wonder, who around here has the oldest/highest mileage vehicle that > they're still using as a semi-regular daily driver? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ray 91 Chevy Lumina. Formerly the Wife's car, now my beater. 287,000 miles, original drive train. Still powder blue too dammit! 91 Chevy Lumina.If my old buddy sells me his 91 Chevy Lumina,(I think he will,someday,he won't keep it forever) that gives me hope. cuhulin,the Coualgne,Tainbocouilgne > 91 Chevy Lumina. Formerly the Wife's car, now my beater. 287,000 miles, > original drive train. Still powder blue too dammit! My daily driver is a 1975 AMC Hornet Sportabout wagon that I purchased nearly 30 years ago as a late-model used car. The car has a bit over 200,000 miles on the clock. Runs great, and the drivetrain has never needed major repairs. We've had other vehicles come and go over the years (mainly for the wife's use), but this one has been a constant. We also have a 1985 AMC Eagle wagon. Same basic body as the Hornet, same engine and transmission, but with 4-wheel-drive for winter use. This car was purchased more recently and has only about 135,000 miles. (As far as I know, there have been no major drivetrain repairs on this car either, but I admittedly don't know its entire history.) Maintenance is the key to keeping a long-term vehicle. SignatureRoger Blake (Subtract 10 for email.) >>At 59k miles, its not even broken in yet. The car I mentioned above >>currently has 247,000 miles on it. It's now had a few repairs, but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > bob z. I leave it as an excercise to the reader to determine who is the idiot here... but it aint the guy driving the American car in this case. > Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17385761/ > > Japanese vehicle brands continue to rule the roost Not in MY garage! Somewhat off-topic question: Are any high-quality products made in the USA? The "american" computers are actually made in the far east. The american cell phones are horrible. (This problem is due in part to the lack of cell phone standards.) The american rocket launchers are less reliable than russian rocket launchers... Americans surely make the best computer CPUs, the best nuclear bombs, the best movies and music. Not much to brag about... >Somewhat off-topic question: >Are any high-quality products made in the USA? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the best nuclear bombs, the best movies and music. >Not much to brag about... What did you have for dinner tonight?? Numbnuts SteveL >Somewhat off-topic question: >Are any high-quality products made in the USA? Yes, but not any high-quality mass-produced products. Part of the problem is that labor is expensive in the US, which drives mass production facilities offshore. Part of the problem is that once you start losing facilities, you start losing the infrastructure base to support them. Used to be there were dozens of contract machine shops in my area that did production work for larger manufacturers, and if I needed something made I could take it to them. When the big manufacturers go offshore, the small contractors go with them, and so does the surplus equipment market as well. >The "american" computers are actually made in >the far east. The american cell phones are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the best nuclear bombs, the best movies and music. >Not much to brag about... Americans make a lot of high quality products that require skilled labor and are made individually. That includes things like nuclear bombs, movies and music, but surprisingly you'll find things like high-grade lenses and precision parts made in the US. The stuff isn't cheap, but for the most part American business can't compete when price is the main concern. That still leaves plenty of other places to compete, if American businessmen can get their head around where they are. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Somewhat off-topic question: > Are any high-quality products made in the USA? You bet. Appliances (eg. Kitchen-aid/Whirlpool) , HVAC equipment (York, Trane, Lennox, Carrier), electric machinery (General Electric), locomotives (General Electric, EMD), cars (GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda). Its the disposable consumer electronics that are mostly made overseas. > The american cell phones are > horrible. I wouldn't trade my Razr for a truckload of Samsungs and LG crap, but then I doubt the Razr is actually made here either. The Consumer Reports survey isn't about the opinions of their writers, it's a survey of the general public. They ask questions about your car and its maintenance history then they crunch the numbers and come up with a report. It's not the most accurate method of finding facts, but it's more accurate than having 5 or 10 guys posting here saying "That report is BS, I never had any trouble with my domestic". I don't doubt the existence of a satisfied domestic owner, you people -do- exist. But you're in the minority... ..and yes, I have owned several domestic cars as well as japanese imports, and I agree with the survey. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to restore a 69 Camaro someday... ..And to simple_language - America makes the best space shuttles. They blow up once in awhile, but they are better than anyone elses (so far). Also, this "Internet" thing the Americans invented seems to be working quite well. SignatureGohan Ryu http://www.automotiveforums.com > The Consumer Reports survey isn't about the opinions of their writers, > it's a survey of the general public. \ I think this is true, and I also think that, although I dont put a lot of credence in CR, there must be some degree of truth linked to their choices. Some of their picks are for newish cars, but I am not the kind of person who buys a new car every 3-4 years. If you trade every 3-4-5 years, chances are you will not have too many problems. How many American name brand American built old clunkers do you see still being driven around compared to foreign name brand vehicles regardless of where they are built.Nothing beats American Iron. cuhulin > How many American name brand American built old clunkers do you see > still being driven around compared to foreign name brand vehicles > regardless of where they are built.Nothing beats American Iron. > cuhulin Easy to say, but not easy to support. The Asian iron is entering the market as a prime mover...The American iron is suffering rejection right now. This is a complicated issue...There are perceptions and misperceptions. I dont want to say that imports have beaten the American brands. But they are winning a VERY strong market position. American technology is no longer revered. The truth lies somewhere in between. >>How many American name brand American built old clunkers do you see >>still being driven around compared to foreign name brand vehicles [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > The truth lies somewhere in between. He's got a point. But the truth is, I'd rather have a 50 year old American car than a 10 year old American car. oh wait... I really do. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel I bought my 1978 Dodge van second hand/used.It had over 285,000 miles on it when I bought it.Since then I have put about 78,000 miles on the van.Nowadays though,almost all of my driving is a three mile round trip to the food store and back,once each week. cuhulin >He's got a point. But the truth is, I'd rather have a 50 year old >American car than a 10 year old American car. > >oh wait... I really do. I agree. BUT, I'd much rather have a 10 year old American car than a 25 year old American car. Things are getting better, even though for a while they really hit rock bottom. --scott (who traded the 50 year old American car in for a 25 year old German one) Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." My old buddy said his 1991 Chevrolet Lumina car has a V 6 engine and about 115,000 miles on the car.Do those engines have overhead cam shafts? If so,I think it most likely needs a new cam belt on it.Is it relativley easy enough to change out that belt,or difficult? I believe (or I think so anyway) I can handle that job myself.I have never owned any vehicles which had overhead camshafts before. cuhulin > My old buddy said his 1991 Chevrolet Lumina car has a V 6 engine and > about 115,000 miles on the car.Do those engines have overhead cam [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > any vehicles which had overhead camshafts before. > cuhulin no, it's a chain and it's not an overhead cam. Probably the 3.1L variant of the 2.8/3.1/3.4 family. Unless it says Twin Dual Cam on it, in which case it's a DOHC, but I believe those had chains as well, and I don't think they came in 91 Luminas. I have replaced a timing chain before on a 1971 Chevrolet van I usd to own.V8 engine.It was no biggie to me. cuhulin > Unless it says Twin Dual Cam on it, in which case it's a DOHC, but I > believe those had chains as well, and I don't think they came in 91 > Luminas. I doubt that there are any of those left running with all the problems they had! > > Unless it says Twin Dual Cam on it, in which case it's a DOHC, but I > > believe those had chains as well, and I don't think they came in 91 > > Luminas. > > I doubt that there are any of those left running with all the problems > they had! Just worked on one (in a Loonyma) about a month ago. They are getting scarcer tho. > > My old buddy said his 1991 Chevrolet Lumina car has a V 6 engine and > > about 115,000 miles on the car.Do those engines have overhead cam [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > no, it's a chain and it's not an overhead cam. > Probably the 3.1L variant of the 2.8/3.1/3.4 family. Not necessarily. > Unless it says Twin Dual Cam on it, in which case it's a DOHC, but I > believe those had chains as well, and I don't think they came in 91 Luminas. They had both a chain and a belt, and they -were- available in 1991. >>> My old buddy said his 1991 Chevrolet Lumina car has a V 6 engine and >>> about 115,000 miles on the car.Do those engines have overhead cam [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > They had both a chain and a belt, and they -were- available in > 1991. Did a quick followup on that - a 91 Lumina with the DOHC 3.4 would have to be a Z34 in a stock config. Like I said, I wasn't 100% sure, but was pretty sure the engine would be the standard 3.1L. FWIW, I own a Beretta with a 3.1 and can't imagine trying to do the timing chain with the engine in the car. The Lumina is wider, but not that much wider - probably not a whole lot of fun. Oh, and if you need a chuckle, the Beretta has developed a lope at idle... no CEL yet, and been too busy to deal with it - am I warped because I finally like the sound of it at idle - it kinda sounds like a V8 with a cam in it through a set of headphones. Ray Ray > I agree. BUT, I'd much rather have a 10 year old American car than a 25 year > old American car. Things are getting better, even though for a while they > really hit rock bottom. Yeah, rock-bottom was about 1980, so your "25 year old" number is about right. But go back further and things were much better. I have a 14 year old American car (close enough to 10 years), a 34 year old American car, a 38 year old American car, and a 41 year old American car. Oh, and a 58 year old American car, but that's in a different class entirely.s By far the cheapest ones to maintain are the 38 and 41 year-old cars (a '66 and '69). There's nothing WRONG with the 14 year old one ('93), but a water pump for it costs >$100, and a water pump for the '66 costs $50. Labor to install the water pump on the 93 is: drain cooling system, remove all belts, remove hood latch cross-bar, remove electric fan assembly, remove timing case cover, remove timing belt, replace water pump (and timing belt, unless you're a moron) and then reverse, including re-timing the cams. A water pump on the '66 is: remove fan belt, (leave A/C and PS belts in place). Remove fan (4 bolts) remove water pump (4 bolts), then reverse process. That's just one service example, there are DOZENS of similar ones. And on top of that, the '66 is more fun to drive. >> The Consumer Reports survey isn't about the opinions of their writers, >> it's a survey of the general public. \ > > I think this is true, ... I believe it's the opinions of their members (subscribers), which is considerable different than the 'general public'. A car or other vehicle of the same make and model or a coffee pot or vacuum cleaner,whatever.You won't hardly ever find Consumers Report agreeing on the same item twice in two consecutive months,I read that somewhere in another news group a few years ago.I never read Consumers Report anyway,mainly because I don't think they know anything (Fort Bragg is Bragging every day.I can brag too,can't I?) more than I know.If I say a certain make and model of a car,or whatever,is the best (in my opinion) there is always someone who will disagree. By the way,my old buddy's wife bought a 1991 Chevrolet Lumina car brand new.About two years ago,she bought a brand new Chevrolet car.She let him have her (that's the way it usually goes,the wife gets the new vehicle,her hubby gets her cast off vehicle) 1991 car.(he also own a 2000 Chevrolet pickup truck that he bought a few years ago) I have asked him before when he gets ready to get rid of his 1991 Chevorlet Lumina car to let me know.The car is like new inside and out,except for some minor paint fading on the rear section of the car.I know those cars are worth about $1,600 and up.He will let me buy it from him (when he gets ready to sell it to me) for about half that price.He and I are the same age (65 years old) and we went to school together way back in the 1950's. cuhulin > A car or other vehicle of the same make and model or a coffee pot or > vacuum cleaner,whatever. Through high school and college, I worked as a radio and TV repairman. These were the dark ages of electronics, in many cases, where printed circuits were being introduced and were very troublesome, picture tubes failed after 3-5 years, etc. Consumer Reports bragged on some of the sorriest crap to come down the pike. Maybe the styling was interesting, or the initial picture quality was okay, or some of the features were different from the rest, but the quality of some of their recommendations was purely manure. I have had doubts about CR from that time. They didnt seem to be doing the customer a service in those days. I hope it is better now. Some of my opinions about cars are based on my actual experience, not CR. And they are just opinions, but to me they are facts until proven different. I have never cared much for Fords, my classic 57 Thunderbird and my 66 Mustang being possible exceptions. I cant even rememeber, now, how the 57 rode in comparison with cars today. The 66 was good for a Ford, but I also remember that it had 'jitter' problems. I have owned a lot of GM cars, one American Motors, a couple of Passats, one Dodge van, two Fiats, plus the early Fords. There are good (and bad) things to be said about most of them. I have had more catastrophic failures with GM cars, and have bitched more about crappy and poorly thought out engineering on them, than any other car. I have often said that there must be a special place reserved in Hell for GM engineers. But in defense, I have also said that I had rather push a Buick that ride in a Ford. (strictly from the standpoint of ride and driver comfort.) To each his own. There is no easy answer. My next will be a Toyota Avalon, and my learning curve will continue, I guess. On Mar 2, 9:17 am, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: > with GM cars, and have bitched more about crappy and poorly thought out > engineering on them, than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My next will be a Toyota Avalon, and my learning curve will continue, I > guess. Well, my friend you are about to discover more about crappy & poorly thought out engineering than you ever wanted to learn. If there's a special place in hell for GM engineers, it's right next door to the one for Toyota engineers. "Bobby The D" <bobbythed@bigfoot.com> wrote in message > Well, my friend you are about to discover more about crappy & poorly > thought out engineering than you ever wanted to learn. If there's a > special place in hell for GM engineers, it's right next door to the > one for Toyota engineers. Could be. As I said, it will be a learning experience. Just rolling over 309,000 miles last night, I'd have to say some domestic cars are right up there on the list too. : - ) harryface 05 Park Avenue 54, 060 91 Bonneville 309.004 Some people who own Toyota vehicles tote a camera along with them when their Toyota is about to roll up 100,000 miles and 200,000 miles and so on.They will stop wherever they are and grab their camera and take a picture of the speedometer/odometer (the part that shows the mileage) and a picture or two of the outside of their Toyota.I once read about an old Volkswagen beetle car which racked up at least 500,000 miles.I think it was 500,000 miles. In my opinion,it isn't unusual at all for any American name brand/built in America vehicles (including Harley Davidson Motorcycles too) to roll up hundreds of thousands of miles if the vehicles are properly maintained and well cared for. By the way,starting in the Fall of this year,a new Toyota factory is going to be built at the Wellspring industrial park near Tupelo,Mississippi. www.wellspringproject.com www.southernautocorridor.com There already is a Nissan factory at the I-55 Gluckstadt exit area between Jackson and Canton,Mississippi.Nissan has some sonic sound cannons at the Mississippi factory.The cannons automatically turn on to bust up hailstones so the new Nissan vehicles in the parking lot won't be damaged by hailstones. www.nissanmississippi.com cuhulin > In my opinion,it isn't unusual at all for any American name brand/built > in America vehicles (including Harley Davidson Motorcycles too) to roll > up hundreds of thousands of miles if the vehicles are properly > maintained and well cared for. Depends upon the level of maintenance you are willing to perform. I have always maintained my vehicles very well. I have had some go to 200 k miles, but there are always expenses to get you there... Transmissions, water pumps, radiators, etc. The more parts you have (electronics incorporating millions of elements sometims) the more likely that one or more will fail, sometimes leaving you stranded. My next car will be my first Toyota. Wish me luck HLS,I agree with you about the electronics in vehicles nowdays.The more of that stuff the manufacturers install in new vehicles,the more chance of something going wrong.It doesn't even have to be installed in vehicles by the manufacturers.I guess you heard about that guy who was driving his vehicle and useing his laptop computer at the same time and he crashed into another vehicle.One of the rules of the road is keep your eyes on the road. cuhulin > My next car will be my first Toyota. Wish me luck I think you'll need it, the sun is setting on the Toyota legend. More and more problems with new models, self-destructing engines, Priuses whose traction control system shuts down the drivetrain, Tundra front ends falling apart, rolling out a HUGE gas-pig of a truck (and a factory to build it) just as truck sales evaporate... Toyota of today is making exactly the same mistakes GM made in the 70s. Japanese cars are not the best.The best cars are American brand name cars manufactured in America. cuhulin > Japanese cars are not the best.The best cars are American brand name > cars manufactured in America. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So where's your proof? BTW proof != anecdotes. LOOK,right after World War Two,U.S.A.imported auto factory machinery and auto technology to Japan.I remember as far back when almost everything from Japan was junk. cuhulin > auto technology to Japan.I remember as far back when almost everything > from Japan was junk. Are you saying that has changed? I've always viewed the label "Made in Japan" on any manufactured item to mean "cheap junk." Though their transistor sets and cameras seem to be more or less OK. SignatureRoger Blake (Subtract 10 for email.) Nissan wanted to fly their rice flag over the Nissan factory in Mississippi.Go to that factory and tell me what you see. cuhulin On 3/5/07 3:02 PM, in article 28960-45EC857F-845@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net, "cuhulin@webtv.net" > Nissan wanted to fly their rice flag over the Nissan factory in > Mississippi.Go to that factory and tell me what you see. > cuhulin I have no idea what is flying above that plant, but the quality/reliability numbers are saying loud and clear that what comes out of that plant is pulling down the whole brand. > On 3/5/07 3:02 PM, in article > 28960-45EC857F-845@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net, "cuhulin@webtv.net" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > numbers are saying loud and clear that what comes out of that plant is > pulling down the whole brand. Consumer Reports says that the Nissan Titan, Nissan Armada, and Infiniti QX are among the most unreliable vehicles in their annual survey. The Nissan Quest minivan rates about as badly, but I don't know if it's also built in that same Mississippi plant. Every morning,when I turn this webtv thang on,,, I do a search in that webtv tv window for,Three Stooges. Larry,the Stooge,otherwise known as, cuhulin Nissan vehicles are unreiliable.I have heard some horror reports about the Nissan vehicles made in Mississippi before.I don't want any of those vehicles. cuhulin On 3/6/07 1:51 PM, in article 25276-45EDC638-851@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net, "cuhulin@webtv.net" > Nissan vehicles are unreiliable.I have heard some horror reports about > the Nissan vehicles made in Mississippi before.I don't want any of those > vehicles. > cuhulin Gross generalization not borne out by the facts. Pretty much the ONLY Nissans that have poor reliability are the ones made in Mississippi - the Titan, Pathfinder & QX56. Nissans made in other plants generally have reliability on a par with the rest of the Jap manufacturers. On 3/6/07 4:58 AM, in article 1173178735.674275.92740@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote: >> On 3/5/07 3:02 PM, in article >> 28960-45EC857F-845@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net, "cuhulin@webtv.net" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > survey. The Nissan Quest minivan rates about as badly, but I don't > know if it's also built in that same Mississippi plant. Titan, Armada and QX56 are the vehicles made in the Mississippi plant. Not sure about the Quest. Quest started out as a joint project with Ford and doesn't seem to have ever recovered from it. > Consumer Reports says that the Nissan Titan, Nissan Armada, and > Infiniti QX are among the most unreliable vehicles in their annual > survey. I doubt that the assembly plant has anything to do with that. Nissan's first attempt at a full-size truck platform (but it still uses a comically small-looking ring-and-pinion set!), first attempt at a v8- bound to be a pile of junk. No surprise at all, just like the Toyota T-100 was a disaster. Many years ago a lot of people from the South moved up North to work in the auto factories.If a car/truck company turns out a car/truck desigh that isn't so good,it isn't the fault of the people who work on the assembly lines.At first the Nissan factory in Mississippi was having problems with the paint quality on the vehicles.Nissan sent some people from Japan to Mississippi to find out what was causing the paint problems.Now the people who work on the assembly lines there do not wear wristwatches,metal belt buckles,ear rings or other kinds of metal objets when they are working at the assembly lines.No more scratches and nicks on the paint jobs. cuhulin Cuhullin, I took some pictures of my odometer at 200,000 250,000 and 300,000. I missed the 100,000 mile rollover in 1995, I was crossing a 2 lane bridge on Rt. 17 in western NY and couldn't stop. 2 -3 friends of mine especially their wives can't stand these pictures when they see them, especially if I give a slide presentation. Last slide show I did I stuck a friends 95 Maxima odometer with 285,000 showing - boy did one guys wife howl when she saw that slide, " Who Cares !!! LOL.... harryface I never bother to take any pictures of my vehicles.I am not a camera nut. cuhulin On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:26:17 -0600, cuhulin wrote: > Some people who own Toyota vehicles tote a camera along with them when > their Toyota is about to roll up 100,000 miles and 200,000 miles and so > on.They will stop wherever they are and grab their camera and take a > picture of the speedometer/odometer (the part that shows the mileage) and > a picture or two of the outside of their Toyota. I didn't do this when the first one hit 100,000. I didn't do this when the next one hit 200,000. If my Corolla GTS makes it to 300,000, I may do this. But I doubt it... > Just rolling over 309,000 miles last night, I'd have to say some > domestic cars are right up there on the list too. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 05 Park Avenue 54, 060 > 91 Bonneville 309.004 I was wondering if your collection of antiques was still around. :) |
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