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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / March 2007

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US stuck in reverse on fuel economy

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iwhtcimtlfmwmaomopw@yahoo.com - 07 Mar 2007 10:43 GMT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17344368/
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 07 Mar 2007 15:05 GMT
On Mar 7, 4:43 am, iwhtcimtlfmwmaom...@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17344368/

I got the latest Consumer Reports yesterday- the annual auto issue. Of
all the cars in there, the only two that got better milage than my 98
Neon were hybrids!

I'd say it is not just the US that is going backwards- the whole
industry is!  Not even the small cars from Japan and other Asian
countries are getting the milage they used to.

But then, with a recent poll showing fuel economy is WAY down on the
list of what buyers are looking for in a car, well, what can we
expect. I think fuel economy was seventeenth or eighteenth- below the
number of cup holders :-(

And even CR is pinging cars that take longer than 9 seconds to get to
60 as being underpowered!  We has met the enemy and they is US!

My 98 Neon has 115,000 miles on it, and I hope that it lasts a long
time. It gets to sixty in just a tad less than 9 second, but gets
37-38 mpg on the highway and around 32 in town.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 07 Mar 2007 20:49 GMT
U.S.fed govt,,,, wearethegovtandweareheretohelpyou!

Like that dear lady friend of mine in Arlington,Texas who retired from
that hospital in Arlington once said to me,,, If govt would only leave
us alone,we would all be better off.

Lynn,me dear,You are soooo Right!
cuhulin
HLS@nospam.nix - 07 Mar 2007 22:14 GMT
> I'd say it is not just the US that is going backwards- the whole
> industry is!  Not even the small cars from Japan and other Asian
> countries are getting the milage they used to.

I have a feeling that cars for the US market are somewhat different from
cars marketed in other countries.  What we get here may not be indicative
of what Asian cars are doing other places.

May be wrong, but just a comment.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 07 Mar 2007 22:29 GMT
U.S.cars are much different than foreign cars made and sold/used in
foreign countries.
cuhulin
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 08 Mar 2007 16:22 GMT
On Mar 7, 4:29 pm, cuhu...@webtv.net wrote:
> U.S.cars are much different than foreign cars made and sold/used in
> foreign countries.
> cuhulin

Still, if mfgs could produce cars with good performance and fuel
economy in the late 90s, why can they not do so today, whether the
designers are in Asia or US?  They do indeed seem to be backsliding.
And I doubt if it is government interference.  I am not aware of any
new pollution control requirements or other things that would hurt
fuel economy since then.
Scott Dorsey - 08 Mar 2007 17:07 GMT
>Still, if mfgs could produce cars with good performance and fuel
>economy in the late 90s, why can they not do so today, whether the
>designers are in Asia or US?  They do indeed seem to be backsliding.
>And I doubt if it is government interference.  I am not aware of any
>new pollution control requirements or other things that would hurt
>fuel economy since then.

Because the marketplace controls what the manufacturers buy, and people
do not want to buy efficient small cars that are fun to drive, people
want to buy huge overgrown SUVs that handle like the Queen Mary and
consume gasoline by the barrel.

Now, why this is the case is completely beyond me.
--scott

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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

clifto - 08 Mar 2007 19:07 GMT
> Because the marketplace controls what the manufacturers buy, and people
> do not want to buy efficient small cars that are fun to drive, people
> want to buy huge overgrown SUVs that handle like the Queen Mary and
> consume gasoline by the barrel.
>
> Now, why this is the case is completely beyond me.

It's mainly because the states pass out drivers' licenses more freely
than they spend tax dollars, and don't prohibit really bad drivers from
buying huge overgrown SUVs that handle like the Queen Mary and squash
efficient small cars that are fun to drive. If you don't want to be
extruded through the front grille of a '78 Cadillac, you either stay
5,000 feet from the nearest drivable roadway or drive something big.

I also find there are extremely few small cars that aren't really hard
on my post-surgical back. A ride in my nephew's beloved Passat was not
unlike sitting on a pillow atop a sheet of 3/4" plywood and having
someone beat on the bottom of the plywood with sledge hammers.

Signature

       Martians drive SUVs! <http://oregonmag.com/MarsWarm307.html>

cuhulin@webtv.net - 08 Mar 2007 21:17 GMT
Back in the 1950's,there were some good size six passenger new and older
American name brands/American manufactured cars on the market which got
at least 30 miles per gallon.Willys made and sold some of them.Look at
the prices per gallon of gasoline now,I recently read that in
California,it is up to about $3.00 per gallon now.Some ''feel good''
people will say,But,adjusted for inflation,,,,,, blah blah blah.

The prices per gallon (in my oinion) of gasoline and diesel fuel are a
RIP OFF.
cuhulin
Noozer - 08 Mar 2007 21:31 GMT
> Back in the 1950's,there were some good size six passenger new and older
> American name brands/American manufactured cars on the market which got
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The prices per gallon (in my oinion) of gasoline and diesel fuel are a
> RIP OFF.

You don't have to buy it.
HLS@nospam.nix - 08 Mar 2007 22:02 GMT
> Back in the 1950's,there were some good size six passenger new and older
> American name brands/American manufactured cars on the market which got
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> RIP OFF.
> cuhulin

Nothing lasts forever. Not even the price of gasoline and diesel.

There are high mileage cars, some in the USA and more in Europe. If you dont
like the
prices here, try Europe, where gasoline can cost $8.00 per gallon.

Japanese, German, and Swedish cars there get substantially better mileage...
( I skipped
by some cars, because frankly some deserve to be skipped) ... BECAUSE
they dont drive SUVs or 300 BHP gas guzzlers for the most part... Well, the
rich and
wannabes do but, the main line of drivers have to be more prudent than the
American driver.

I drove a crappy Ford Volvo there that, on diesel, got 74 mpg when loafing.
Averaged
better than 40.

People here have not yet gotten the picture.
* - 10 Mar 2007 13:11 GMT
cuhulin@webtv.net wrote in article
<27894-45F07D7F-22@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net>...
> Back in the 1950's,there were some good size six passenger new and older
> American name brands/American manufactured cars on the market which got
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The prices per gallon (in my oinion) of gasoline and diesel fuel are a
> RIP OFF.

That is SUCH a stupid statement!

Sure, you're paying $3.00 per gallon, but you are also making a LOT more
money than you did in the '50s when there was no minimun wage, and a
dollar-an-hour was quite common.

You probably still work about the same amount of time to buy a gallon of
gasoline today as you did in the '50s.

Cars today cost more than my house did in 1976.........

......but I remember an old-timer once complaining to me that a "new"
Camaro at $5,000 cost more than HE paid for his house in 1946.....

....yet, we all seem to survive.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 11 Mar 2007 20:19 GMT
> > I'd say it is not just the US that is going backwards- the whole
> > industry is!  Not even the small cars from Japan and other Asian
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> May be wrong, but just a comment.

Its true. When I bought my Landcruiser, I looked into buying a diesel
model. They are quite popular in Europe where fuel economy is important,
but they are not available here.

Also, some models available with a flex fuel (ethanol > 10%) option are
not available here either.

Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Telemark:  If it was easy, they'd call it snowboarding.

spoadly - 14 Mar 2007 08:20 GMT
Actually, the whole industry moving backwards is inaccurate.  There is
a HUGE movement of overunity machines, pulse magnet motors, and
several other motors using concepts by Nikola Tesla.  If you don't
know who he is, you're not alone.  His story is the most amazing in
world history.  You owe it to yourselves to look at, or read a
biography of his life and then ask the question, why does nobody know
who this guy is.  He brought about the electrical revolution at the
turn of the 20th century, and in death, he'll do it again around the
corner of this century.
You may have heard about the Lotus Tesla.  That is the new electric
sports car that does 0-60 in under 4 seconds.  That car was named
after Nikola Tesla to pay tribute to the greatest man in recent
history.  His concepts and ideas are being revitalized into a
revolution that will rewrite physics (that process has already
started, the term electricity is already being retooled as far too
vague).  You can also search the web for some of these Tesla spawned
words and phrases like:

Back EMF
Perendev motor
Bedini motor (sometimes spelled bodini)
Overunity
Free Energy

Study Tesla, understand his actual achievements (not theories like
Einstein, but actual magnificent feats and inventions that we still
use today) and then see where he was headed before he was basically
shut down by misinformed popular opinion.  Juxtaposed with the
technologies being brought forth by several of his pupils, it's not
hard to see how the possibilities of what's being created right now.
If you miss the step of studying Tesla before you go and see some of
these devices working, you may think they are impossible.  If you look
at Tesla's history, his 111 US patents, 500 Worldwide patents,
(inventions such as:  AC in which the world receive electricity today,
AC Induction motors, and transformers, still used today, harnessed the
energy of Niagra Falls (his statue is in front of the largest power
plant and 9 of the 10 patents posted on the door are his), X-Ray (MRI
are measured in Tesla Units), Fluorescent Lights, Neon Lighting, The
Coil (like the one in your car), the alternator of course (AC is
Alternating Current - hence where the term Alternator came from),
wireless transmission (including Radio & Television frequencies and
how to tune into them).  Don't you think that's a pretty amazing
resume for a guy who's almost unknown.  Study Tesla and you will see
that this stuff was only the beginning of the incredible things he had
planned to do before he ran out of funding.  He was labeled by the
press as a man who lost his mind toward his mid life, largely due to
public announcements that he was receiving signals from outer space
while developing the radio technology.  The damage was done, people
thought he was a loon, only now of course we know that planets radiate
a signal that we receive on a daily basis.  (not aliens, but planets
surging with energy like the ones throughout our solar system, sending
a frequency signal).  It's the most fascinating story ever, and you
have only been told a snippet.  Search for the news, don't let big
business feed it to you.  A decent film biography on Tesla called,
"Tesla: the genious who lit the world," can be rented on Netflix.
There are better biographies, but that's the only one I know how to
reference, some others can be seen on YouTube and downloaded by
bittorrent.  (try torrentscan.com)

Once you've learned about him, and his future of his possibilities,
tell everyone you know.  The word needs to be out.
« Paul » - 09 Mar 2007 01:11 GMT
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17344368/

My old 92 Grand Am 3.3, 3 spd auto, still gets 23.8 mpg around town.
And it can still squeal the front tires through an intersection.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 09 Mar 2007 03:49 GMT
I used to listen to Roger Fredinburg's radio talk show
www.regularguy.com when it was carried by one of the local radio
stations in my area.One night a guy in Texas phoned into Roger's
Show.The guy said he retired from working at an oil refinery.He also
said gasoline is a waste product of the oil refineries.

I realize about the the thingys about cleaning up gasoline at the oil
refineres and about adding certain kinds of chemicals to the gasoline at
the oil refineries,and gasoline is formulated for the different seasons
and different parts of America all year long and the transportation
factor of getting the gasoline (and diesel fuel) to the gas
stations,there are other factors I don't know about too.

I don't have to buy gasoline for my vehicle? I guess I can sell my
vehicle and call a taxi cab when I need to go to the food store or
anywhere else around here I might need to go,or ride a bicycle,or walk.I
am not interested in not doing my own driving,my own vehicle,not yet
anyway.
cuhulin
« Paul » - 09 Mar 2007 04:38 GMT
> I used to listen to Roger Fredinburg's radio talk show
> www.regularguy.com when it was carried by one of the local radio
> stations in my area.One night a guy in Texas phoned into Roger's
> Show.The guy said he retired from working at an oil refinery.He also
> said gasoline is a waste product of the oil refineries.

That is about the same as saying Vodka is a waste product of a
distillery.
A refinery is similar to a distillery.
One of the first blends to condense is gasoline.
Noozer - 09 Mar 2007 06:17 GMT
> I don't have to buy gasoline for my vehicle? I guess I can sell my
> vehicle and call a taxi cab when I need to go to the food store or
> anywhere else around here I might need to go,or ride a bicycle,or walk.I
> am not interested in not doing my own driving,my own vehicle,not yet
> anyway.

Lots of people get by without a car.

So now your not saying gas is too expensive. Your saying it's too expensive
(or too much of a pain in the a.s) to live without gas?

Make up your mind.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 09 Mar 2007 13:45 GMT
I believe that some people agree that sometimes,gasoline (and diesel
fuel too) is too expensive.Well heck,I can grow some corn in my back
yard and make my own fuel for my van.There are many,many sites on the
internet about making your own auto fuel.
cuhulin
HLS@nospam.nix - 09 Mar 2007 16:27 GMT
> I believe that some people agree that sometimes,gasoline (and diesel
> fuel too) is too expensive.Well heck,I can grow some corn in my back
> yard and make my own fuel for my van.There are many,many sites on the
> internet about making your own auto fuel.
> cuhulin

Heard on the BBC this morning that there is a movement to shut back fossil
hydrocarbon and
coal production at the source.  The rationale is that if you produce it,
people will burn it,
and the planet cannot sustain this generation of CO2 much longer.  (Some
computer
scenarios say we have no more than 10 years to decrease the trend or the
will become
irreversible)

There is no longer any credible challenge to the problems that increasing
levels of
greenhouse gases are causing.  Source regulation of fossil fuel production
would be
a pretty hard pill.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 09 Mar 2007 20:45 GMT
BBC?,,, we are from Mars too,if you believe in BBC Have you heard or
read lately about any new refineries going to be built in America? There
is going to be built a new coal to liquid fuel refinery/plant in
Southeast U.S.A.
cuhulin
HLS@nospam.nix - 10 Mar 2007 13:16 GMT
> BBC?,,, we are from Mars too,if you believe in BBC Have you heard or
> read lately about any new refineries going to be built in America? There
> is going to be built a new coal to liquid fuel refinery/plant in
> Southeast U.S.A.
> cuhulin

BBC  has its problems just like some of the American broadcasting systems
do.
But, BBC wouldnt have said it had not some group brought this idea forward
as
a possible solution to the perceived problem.

You notice that Bush has signed an agreement with Brasil to pursue ethanol
production.  Brasil now satisfies 40% of its motor fuel requirements with
ethanol
from sugar cane.  And it doesn't require adding extra carbon to the
atmosphere.

I know the people from the corn belt might snort up a response to this, but
there
is plenty of land here in the USA where sugar cane is a very successful
crop.

Why do you think that Brasil would choose sugar cane over corn, when they
have
millions of acres and a range of climate so that they could raise any crop
they want???

With respect to news agencies, several years ago when I first moved to
Europe,
I had a hard time finding an objective news service.  BBC was propaganda,
Radio
Moscow was worse,and the Voice of America was just as bad.  Finally, I
starting
getting my news from Radio Tirana in Albania...Those guys disliked and
distrusted
EVERYBODY, but the news was pretty straight.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 10 Mar 2007 16:48 GMT
Won't be long till Spring time,and then Summer time.Mark my words,the
price of gasoline and diesel fuel will go up.A guy on the SPIKE tv
channel right now is showing and telling all about how to make your own
bio fuel.That coal to liquid fuel plant will be in Mississippi.
cuhulin
Roger Blake - 11 Mar 2007 05:51 GMT
> There is no longer any credible challenge to the problems that increasing
> levels of
> greenhouse gases are causing.

Utter and complete bilge.

Signature

 Roger Blake
 (Subtract 10 for email.)

HLS@nospam.nix - 14 Mar 2007 11:22 GMT
> > There is no longer any credible challenge to the problems that increasing
> > levels of
> > greenhouse gases are causing.
>
> Utter and complete bilge.

Not bilge at all.
Roger Blake - 14 Mar 2007 13:03 GMT
> Not bilge at all.

Total bilge. Or utter bunk, if you prefer. Take your pick.

The belief in "human caused global warming" is a religion.  There are
many resources where you will find scientists documenting the flaws in the
notion. This will of course not affect the position of the True Believers,
any more than contrary data will sway the beliefs of "creation scientists"
who believe that the earth is 6000 years old and that dinosaurs walked
the earth with humans.

Bottom line for me is that I will not change my lifestyle to accomodate
the beliefs of the enviro-nazis. Go talk to your Mr. Gore, who uses 20
times more energy in his home(s) than the average American, and then tries
to explain it away with bogus "carbon credits." (And who has been lately
taken to task by the scientific community for his many lies and distortions.)

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 Roger Blake
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HLS@nospam.nix - 14 Mar 2007 13:11 GMT
> > Not bilge at all.
>
> Total bilge. Or utter bunk, if you prefer. Take your pick.

I choose neither of the above...Nor am I a "creation scientist" or "flat
earther".
* - 10 Mar 2007 13:15 GMT
cuhulin@webtv.net wrote in article
<729-45F0D93D-213@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net>...
> I used to listen to Roger Fredinburg's radio talk show
> www.regularguy.com when it was carried by one of the local radio
> stations in my area.One night a guy in Texas phoned into Roger's
> Show.The guy said he retired from working at an oil refinery.He also
> said gasoline is a waste product of the oil refineries.

This is exactly how half-truth, urban legends begin......

Back when the automobile was first being developed, gasoline WAS a
by-product of a petroleum refinery.

That is NOT true today.

Refineries are now geared up to PRODUCE gasoline.
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 13 Mar 2007 15:20 GMT
> I don't have to buy gasoline for my vehicle? I guess I can sell my
> vehicle and call a taxi cab when I need to go to the food store or
> anywhere else around here I might need to go,or ride a bicycle,or walk.I
> am not interested in not doing my own driving,my own vehicle,not yet
> anyway.
> cuhulin

Most people can cut their fuel consumption substantially by changing
driving habits.  You do not need to park your car and leave it.
Remember, the last arab oil embargo created the 55 mpg speed limit.
Just cutting cruising speed on highways by five percent will help a
lot.  Around town, do not join the "who can get the the next red light
first" contest.  Coast and play the lights.  If you drive stick shift,
short shift.  Combine trips.  Stay off brakes- do you left foot
brake?  Make sure you do not use brake as a footrest.  If you raise
your fuel economy 15%, it is like getting a 15% discount on gas.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 17 Mar 2007 05:03 GMT
The best way to improve your car's fuel economy is to adjust the nut
behind the steering wheel.

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aduplain@gmail.com - 13 Mar 2007 15:28 GMT
On Mar 7, 6:43 am, iwhtcimtlfmwmaom...@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17344368/

After reading some of the comments posted, I think it's more about how
we transfer energy to motion. Changing our dependency on the
combustion engine is the big step. Getting rid of it in the near
future, next to impossible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-electric

We are using diesel-electric / gas-electric almost everywhere in
boats, trains and large trucks. Don't see why car builders can't come
up with a smart solution.

Ramsay
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 14 Mar 2007 14:59 GMT
On Mar 13, 8:28 am, adupl...@gmail.com wrote:

> We are using diesel-electric / gas-electric almost everywhere in
> boats, trains and large trucks. Don't see why car builders can't come
> up with a smart solution.
>
> Ramsay

They call them "hybrids."  While a diesel-electric need not have
batteries, some battery equipped (true hybrids} locomotives are
appearing now.
 
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