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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / March 2007flush or not to flush
I have 2001 Nissan Altima. 62000 miles and I though it is a good time to do some check ups here and there. Transmission fluid replacement is one of them. While I do not experience any problems with transmission (transmission fluid is a little dark red, does not smell burnt nor it has any particles on the dipstick) just preventive care. I have a few options ...flush or drain. 1. Flush. Well I asked here and there and I am a little confused. Many people do not recommend doing it at all. Nissan Altima 2001 does not have filter but screen. A guy told that flushing means reverting the flow of the fluid to the opposite diretion.so all the debris gathered on the screen will flow back getting stuck in some places causing real harm to transmission. True I did not find any particles on the stick ..it does not mean though that they are not somewhere there (in torquet?). Generally I heard flushing might cause more harm then good..because (now is funny) I will get rid of the fluid that has some 'good little debris of clutch around it' that supposedly help to function clutch better. New fluid will accelerate the process of wear and tear of my transmission (?!). Why all the shops recommend doing that ? Well it is because of that machine that keeps the process easy and clean and is a good return for shops to sell the service. They do not care that you might not be able to shift gears after the flush ... 2. Drain. Old school method .. the process is simple .. uncap, let the old liquid drain and pour new liquid . Problem : about 50% of old fluid will stay, we mix old transmission fluid with new (heck if I know whether old fluid was synthetic or not and if the 1 qrt I poured some 1 year ago was synthetic or no ....) Supposedly it is not a problem. The good thing is that the parts of clutch will still live in the environment where the particles are all around and help to function the clutch (?!) This will extend the life of my transmission and is the best option for preventive care ... Please let me know what you guys think about it. Looks like there are 2 schools ... Those who want to do a decent job and those who want to sell service .. the problem is I am not sure who is who ..my guts are telling me : just as you maintain your engine with new oil you should maintain every other part of your vehicle ....so there the answer should be out there ;-))) > I have 2001 Nissan Altima. 62000 miles and I though it is a good time > to do some check ups here and there. Transmission fluid replacement is [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > maintain every other part of your vehicle ....so there the answer should > be out there ;-))) Personally I hate the idea of flushing anything(except radiator). Because of what was said, it knocks stuff lose and you are not sure if it's actually out of the transmission or floating around waiting to clog something up. Honda recommends a three part drain and fill. This may be something you might do as well. Drain and fill and later do it again and then a third time. Eventually most of the fluid in the trans will be new. >1. Flush. Well I asked here and there and I am a little confused. Many >people do not recommend doing it at all. Nissan Altima 2001 does not [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >function the clutch (?!) This will extend the life of my transmission >and is the best option for preventive care ... I would choose the drain/fill option. Although I will say, we had our RX330 flushed at 62K and the tranny is still going strong over a year later, but I have heard some people have experienced problems with the flush, especially on higher mileage vehicles. >Please let me know what you guys think about it. Looks like there are >2 schools ... Those who want to do a decent job and those who want to >sell service .. the problem is I am not sure who is who ..my guts are >telling me : just as you maintain your engine with new oil you should >maintain every other part of your vehicle ....so there the answer should >be out there ;-))) I stay away from the flush sales job. Drop the pan and clean it and the screen and refill. Steve B. I'm with the current majority, drain/fill. May be a PITA to drop the pan, new pan gasket, etc., but it tends to be the safest route. It ALSO, repeat ALSO lets you get to your screen. A flush ignores the screen or filter. A flush also does NOT allow you to clean the bottom of the pan of any residue. {The residue, btw, as I sure you know, can be a diagnostic of the tranny's health}. The above is the primary reason many people suggest drain/fill over flushing. After all, if you are going to do it, might as well do it to see and change or see what's in there, right? Let me suggest two ideas~~~ 1] Install a drain plug on the pan after it's pulled. Kits abound, ya just need to drill the hole, in most cases. U can also tap, if you really want to. The only thing is, even though you can easily drain the fluid out anytime ya want to, you leave any residue in the pan, and don't get to service the screen. 2] If U feel confident, disconnect the trans. out line at the trans. cooler, start the car, let the tran.s pump push the fluid out for ya. But that still leaves the residue and screen issue problematic. It's very similar to changing the engine oil without also changing the filter, as far as a flush goes.  SignatureKnifeblade_03 http://www.automotiveforums.com > Please let me know what you guys think about it. Looks like there are > 2 schools ... Those who want to do a decent job and those who want to > sell service .. the problem is I am not sure who is who ..my guts are > telling me : just as you maintain your engine with new oil you should > maintain every other part of your vehicle ....so there the answer should > be out there ;-))) You will notice that the vast majority of people knocking the "trans flush" simply give you anecdotal evidence....ie: "I've heard that it's bad". One of the big problems is the term "flush". I've used so-called "flushing" machines now for at least 10 years and have yet to see one transmission fail that could be attibuted to "flushing" the fluid. And I work in a large dealership where the machines are used on a regular basis. First of all, no machine that I've used or heard of, does any such thing as "backflushing" the trans. It makes absolutely no sense to perform such a service. All these machines do is what I would term a "fluid transfer". The hookup is simple, the machine is hooked into the trans cooler line in series, it's auto-sensing so it knows which line is pressure and which is the return. Using the transmissions own pressure in the line, the fluid is returned to the trans at the same rate that the trans is pushing the old fluid out the return line. Nothing changes, no high pressures are used, fluid is not forced backwards thru the filter, all that is happening is that you are using a machine to accomplish the same thing if you pulled a cooler line off, ran the trans to pump out old fluid while filling thru the dipstick tube! Which by the way, is a method you will hear espoused as "a better way to flush a trans". This is ridiculous, as it's identical. If the car has a filter, my personal preference would be to drop the pan, change the filter and then use the machine to get all the old fluid out. I've used these machines on my own cars and have never experienced anything other then positive results. Ian > You will notice that the vast majority of people knocking the "trans flush" > simply give you anecdotal evidence....ie: "I've heard that it's bad". [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ian Well there. Sounds like you agree. : ) About this machine of yours. How much would your shop charge for a fluid change? This would certainly be a nice option. yep this looks like the option 3 for me which is kinda option 2 (drain) using the machine. will it take care of all the ATF ? also any shop (tel, address) I can go and have it done ? I live in Austin,TX. Thanks guys for all the good info on that ! >yep this looks like the option 3 for me which is kinda option 2 >(drain) using the machine. will it take care of all the ATF ? >also any shop (tel, address) I can go and have it done ? I live in >Austin,TX. Thanks guys for all the good info on that ! If you do it on a regular schedule, long before the fluid itself starts to fail, it doesn't matter if you do the flush or just change it. The flush gives you a complete fluid exchange, but that's not critical if you still have plenty of life left in the fluid anyway. If you're doing it on a car that has been horribly abused without proper maintenance for years, the flush may remove some of the gum that is the only thing holding the transmission together. But, you could argue that in this case it's really only a matter of time before it fails anyway. In that case it doesn't really matter either, does it? --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." "motoron" <ngmodert@hotmail.com> wrote in message How much would your shop charge for a > fluid change? This would certainly be a nice option. Where I live, the shop charges $125 for an oil change using the machine (for my 97 Dodge full size van). You could drop the pan, change the filter and refill with ATF for half that amount, or less. > "motoron" <ngmodert@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > amount, > or less. Aren't the newer cars now coming with no drain plug in the torque converters? SignatureMartians drive SUVs! <http://oregonmag.com/MarsWarm307.html> > Aren't the newer cars now coming with no drain plug in the torque converters? If "new" means "since 1978," then yes. :-) Seriously- giving the transmission a few hours to drain instead of a few minutes will get 2/3 of the fluid out of the convertor, leaving only about a quart or 2 of old fluid. Maybe that's a problem on some foreign transmissions that only use 3 quarts of ATF, but not a problem on a transmission with a pan and sump that holds 8 quarts. HLS@nospam.nix wrote in article <6GvLh.10059$M65.80@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net>... > "motoron" <ngmodert@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > amount, > or less. I haven't seen anybody mention that with the pan off, you can also do a quick band adjustment on many transmissions - perhaps avoiding some slippage down the road......... > > Please let me know what you guys think about it. Looks like there are > > 2 schools ... Those who want to do a decent job and those who want to [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Ian Some machines seem to do more than just "change the fluid" what about this one? http://www.asedeals.com/transmission_flusher.html Seems to aireate or agitate the fluid to break loose gunk deposits. It seems that on some older trannies that are full of deposits some of the residue from these flushes can end up in the valve body and cause some problems from what some people are saying. DO you think this is not possible? Bob > Some machines seem to do more than just "change the fluid" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Seems to aireate or agitate the fluid to break loose gunk deposits. I've never heard of this one...thanks for pointing it out. I can say that there is "no way" that I would use something like this. None of the machines that I've used or seen in use do anything like what this machine does. > It seems that on some older trannies that are full of deposits > some of the residue from these flushes can end up in the valve body > and cause some problems from what some people are saying. > > DO you think this is not possible? It's possible if you used a machine like the one that you linked to, but I see no reason why the machines that I mention would cause something like that. How could they? They do nothing more then what is being done every day in the normal operation of the trans, fluid is moving around through the transmission cooler line circuit! Ian >> Please let me know what you guys think about it. Looks like there are >> 2 schools ... Those who want to do a decent job and those who want to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And I work in a large dealership where the machines are used on a > regular basis. <snip good info> As a non-pro, I was one of those who bought into the anecdotal condemnation of "flushing". My understanding of "flushing" was that it involved the use of solvents that might break sludge loose, only to have the crud clog valve bodies and the like before leaving the hydraulic system. Untrue? Or is a sludged tranny on its last legs anyway? SignatureTegger > As a non-pro, I was one of those who bought into the anecdotal > condemnation [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Untrue? Or is a sludged tranny on its last legs anyway? You know...I can't give a definitive answer to whether "sludge" is going to break loose. Using the machines that we use, I cannot see it. Yes, there is a chemical that is used before the fluid is "exchanged". I can only tell you that we've done thousands of GM vehicles and I cannot think of one failure that you could attibute to "flushing". I have also seen many transmissions apart, in various stages of failure, and have yet to see one that has any enormous buildup of sludge anywhere else other then the pan. What's in the pan is usually clutch material, and bushing material, and the filter is what is supposed to keep it out of the rest of the trans. There will always be the horror stories about how some guy had a trans with black fluid that was working just fine until it got flushed. I haven't seen it, but I have little doubt that it "might" have happened somewhere, somehow. Or perhaps it was just coincidence? This actually could turn into another whole discussion on whether preventative maintenance is actually worth anything. I've had cars myself that I've done literally nothing to, and have had many years of great trouble free service out of them. Ian >> As a non-pro, I was one of those who bought into the anecdotal >> condemnation [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > myself that I've done literally nothing to, and have had many years > of great trouble free service out of them. Thanks for the input. I learned something today. SignatureTegger >>You know...I can't give a definitive answer to whether "sludge" >>is going to break loose. Using the machines that we use, I cannot [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>the filter is what is supposed to keep it out of the rest of the >>trans. All of which begs the question, "Why on earth does anyone perceive any VALUE to flushing???" Transmissions do not generate "sludge" at all, because there is no combustion by-product that gets into them. They do accumulate clutch powder in the pan and filter, but when you drop the pan to do the flush you clean that out anyway. I suppose one could argue that on transmissions without a torque convertor drain plug, flushing serves to get rid of the old fluid that would stay in the convertor, but heck just doing a regular fluid/filter change will insure that the fluid is never SO bad that you have to replace 100% of it. > All of which begs the question, "Why on earth does anyone perceive > any VALUE to flushing???" Transmissions do not generate "sludge" at > all, They might not generate "sludge" but they do generate "varnish." Every time a clutch or band engages, a minute about of fluid is "cooked." Some of this ends up coating the walls of the fluid passages and the walls of the actuators. I don't know that a flush will remove this stuff, so I have my doubts about the usefulness of a flush. > because there is no combustion by-product that gets into them. They > do accumulate clutch powder in the pan and filter, but when you drop [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > will insure that the fluid is never SO bad that you have to replace > 100% of it. I agree with this. My Frontier has a drain plug on the pan. I figure if I change part of the fluid (around 5 quarts come out if you pull the plug) every 25k miles, I'll be OK. Interestingly the Frontier shop manual describes taking off the oil cooler line with the truck running as a way to do a fluid exchange. You allow the fluid to be pumped out of the cooler line into a bucket while at the same time adding fluid to the pan via the fill tube. I have read of others doing this but I'd never seen it in a factory service manual until now. Ed >>All of which begs the question, "Why on earth does anyone perceive >>any VALUE to flushing???" Transmissions do not generate "sludge" at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Some of this ends up coating the walls of the fluid passages and the > walls of the actuators. I have opened up a fair number of transmissions, and have never seen varnish in the actuators and fluid passages, even in transmissions where the fluid had been overheated to the point it looked like molasses. ATF is pretty rugged stuff and has very good anti-deposit additives. Yes, it can "cook" but it seems to do so *ON* the clutch disks when they're abused, and the varnish accumulates there as a glaze. It doesn't seem to precipitate out elsewhere in the transmission. Just my observations... >> They might not generate "sludge" but they do generate "varnish." > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > abused, and the varnish accumulates there as a glaze. It doesn't seem to > precipitate out elsewhere in the transmission. Any decent additives for cleaning some of the gunk out, either for general use or to add just before a change? SignatureMartians drive SUVs! <http://oregonmag.com/MarsWarm307.html> Thanks for all the good info on that! I have learnt a lot. I have decided not to do flush at all. I was hesitant about dropping the pan and replacing the filter. There are a couple of posts that made me believe that draining only will do good. 1. It is not that east to replace the filter as somebody already experienced on this group: "Changing the fluid would not be a problem since there is a drain plug but to anyone considering changing the filter - DON'T do it it's a trick. Let me clarify that this is the 4-sp auto tranny paired with the 1.6L engine. You see, Nissan decided to make an otherwise simple job into a nightmare. One of the bolts that holds the filter threads through a washer into a nut on the top of the valve body. When you remove the bolt, the washer and nut get lost in there...." It goes on and on ..guy might not be skilful enough to do that ... neither am I !!! 2. This is what some Nissan mechanic got to say : "have done allot of services on Maximas and have never changed the filter on one. Two reasons the valvle body of the transaxle has to be removed to remove one of the bolts holding on the filter. Aswell the filter is a fine metal mesh unlike the American cars which are paper and require replacement. I DO NOT sugest removeing the valve body unless you are realy sure you want to possily damage the transaxle the smallest peice of lint of dirt could and will stick or damage a valve causeinf a poor shift and an overhaul." ..kinda follows up on the unlucky guy's experience 3. Owner's manual says nothing about pan dropping let alone filter replacement... drain/refill is all they mention 4. Some 12-15 rotten screws hold the pan. I do not have any wrench (nor ever used one) that would tell me how many pounds I need to apply to screw the pan in order not to damage gasket and not to make the whole thing leaky... As automatic transmission is a freaking precise mechanism I better not touch what's inside So drain/refill is all that is left on the table. Two things that can happen are : overfill, drain screw will leak (rotten again) Do you think I should buy this thing and apply it to the screw (bottom of pan). http://catalog.autohausaz.com/autohausaz/detailw.jsp?sid=pvx2itmuajsds255455vli4 5&partner=autohausaz&year=2001&make=NI&model=ALT-GXE-002&category=J5031&part=AT% 20Drain%20Plug%20Seal Perhaps there are some good sealants that can be applies to prevent the leak ? Again thanks a lot for you input ! > ... > This actually could turn into another whole discussion on whether > preventative maintenance is actually worth anything. I've had cars > myself that I've done literally nothing to, and have had many years > of great trouble free service out of them. I had a 76 Ford E-150 van that I drove about 150,000 mi before I traded it in 1993. I never changed the trans fluid in it (a C-6) all the time I had it. I think the only time I did anything to the trans was to add a couple qts of fluid when I installed a cooler. The trans was still working fine of spite of towing boats & cars a lot with it. It also had the original water pump, PS pump, exhaust system, alternator, etc. The AZ summers had destroyed all the upholstery and plastic parts altho the dash covering was still like new. The 93 Ranger that replaced it is pretty much on the same track... >> ... >> This actually could turn into another whole discussion on whether [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > had it. I think the only time I did anything to the trans was to add a > couple qts of fluid when I installed a cooler. You can do that to a Ford C6. You can do that to a Mopar 727 (and I have). You can do that to a GM TH-400. You can even do that to a Mopar A-518 4-speed (and I have). But you CANNOT do that with electronically controlled 4- 5- and 6-speed front-drive transaxles (or many modern rear-drive transmissions for that matter) with clutch plates the size of silver dollars and partially-locking torque convertor clutches. Well, you can- but not and expect them to live, mainly because they are so dependant on the fluid having *just* the right static and dynamic coefficients of friction in order to work without tearing themselves up. The chemicals in the fluid that serve as friciton modifiers degrade over time, and have to be replaced regardless of whether the fluid is dirty or has been overheated. no flush just drain it and take a magnet see if you have shavngs..you might want to do this 2 to 3 times.the last time you do it put new filter it....and you can also drain from radiater lines to see if you got much of metal shavings in it...good luck.. scrapper.... SignatureScrapper http://www.automotiveforums.com |
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