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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / March 2007

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TRANSMISSION SLIPS ONLY WHEN CAR IS COLD!!!

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newjerseydevilsrock2000@yahoo.com - 19 Mar 2007 15:13 GMT
I have a 98' Honda Accord Ex V6 3.0L. When the car is cold the
transmission slips and will give a big jolt when getting into gear.
Once the car is warm the temperature seems to drop a little and then
it shifts perfect. Please help me and tell what is wrong and what I
should do. Thank you.
C. E. White - 19 Mar 2007 16:16 GMT
>I have a 98' Honda Accord Ex V6 3.0L. When the car is cold the
> transmission slips and will give a big jolt when getting into gear.
> Once the car is warm the temperature seems to drop a little and then
> it shifts perfect. Please help me and tell what is wrong and what I
> should do. Thank you.

Read this thread -
http://cartalk.com/board/showflat.php?Number=332110

It is probably too late to do anything except get ready to have it
rebuilt. You can try changing the fluid, but it is my experience that
once you let one slip for awhile, your transmission is probably just
about toast. The problem most likely is a build up of degraded fluid
on the walls of the hydraulic actuators. This makes them sticky, and
less able to supply the proper force on the clutches. This allows for
slippage. And the slippage between gears, creates the "big jolt." If
it was mine, I'd change the fluid, but with the understanding that
this was a desperate measure made necessary by neglecting proper
maintenance.

How many miles on the transmission? When was the last time you had the
fluid changed? I looked at the Honda maintenance schedule and I don't
see routine changes recommended, but then it you read the above Car
Talk thread, 30k changes seems like a smart move. Apparently 1998-2002
Honda Transmissions were troublesome.

Ed
HLS@nospam.nix - 19 Mar 2007 19:25 GMT
I looked at the Honda maintenance schedule and I don't
> see routine changes recommended, but then it you read the above Car
> Talk thread, 30k changes seems like a smart move. Apparently 1998-2002
> Honda Transmissions were troublesome.

\Ed, my son and his family have two Hondas, both hybrids.  He was under the
same
impression that the tranny didn't need to be serviced very often.  (Had all
his services
done at the dealership).

Then, along came transmission problems.  The dealership whistled, looked at
the sky, but
finally agreed that since the vehicles had been properly serviced according
to their own
rules, and because extended warrantly was still in place, they would first
try a tranny flush
at dealership expense.  Believe it or not, it seems to have cured the
problem.

Otherwise they would have replaced the tranny.

This also references a previous thread about the wisdom of using tranny
flushes.  IF the
dealership had changed the fluid more often, perhaps the problem would not
have arisen.
Son will, in the future, have the tranny serviced on a more frequent
schedule.  (This is the
tranny with no filter)
Tegger - 19 Mar 2007 21:34 GMT
"C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in news:45fea9e5$1
@kcnews01:

> If
> it was mine, I'd change the fluid, but with the understanding that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> fluid changed? I looked at the Honda maintenance schedule and I don't
> see routine changes recommended,

I just read the maintenance schedule for the '97 Accord. The fluid is
supposed to be replaced every 48K miles/48 months under the "Normal"
schedule, and twice as often under the "severe" schedule.

> but then it you read the above Car
> Talk thread, 30k changes seems like a smart move. Apparently 1998-2002
> Honda Transmissions were troublesome.

The V6 ones, yes. It apparently began with a redesign that was concurrent
with a change in the V6 from 2.7 liters displacement to 3.0 for the 1998
model year.
It was due to design defects, which were corrected as of the 2003 model
year.

Signature

Tegger

newjerseydevilsrock2000@gmail.com - 20 Mar 2007 01:22 GMT
On Mar 19, 11:16 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
wrote:
> <newjerseydevilsrock2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Ed

there is 115k on the transmission. I just changed the fluid a couple
of days ago. I got the used and it had 103k on it so not sure when it
was change before that. But why does it only slip when it is cold?
Also could it be the Torque Converter?
C. E. White - 20 Mar 2007 13:00 GMT
> there is 115k on the transmission. I just changed the fluid a couple
> of days ago. I got the used and it had 103k on it so not sure when
> it
> was change before that. But why does it only slip when it is cold?
> Also could it be the Torque Converter?

It is not likely to be the torque converter.

As to why it only slips when cold -there are several possibilities

1) When the transmission is cold the parts are at their minimum
dimensions. More fluid may leak past seals, etc. leading to low line
pressures. At the lower pressure the bands/clutches don't properly
engage. As the transmission warms up, internal parts expand, reducing
clearances and this restores normal operation - or at least seems to.
It might be the pressure is still reduced and some slippage is still
present, just not enough to be noticeable.
2) When the transmission is cold seals are hard and don't seal as
well - pretty much the same scenario as above. As the transmission
heats up, the seals become more flexible and do a better job of
sealing the components.
3) Old degraded fluid (i.e., varnish) is contaminating the walls of
the actuators. When everything is cold, the actuators are sluggish,
and don't provide proper pressure on the bands/clutches. This leads to
slippage
4) Internal transmission passages are restricted by old degraded fluid
This restricts fluid flow (and increase the pressure drop). When the
transmission fluid is cold it is more viscous, so the pressure drop
through the restricted passages is greater resulting in reduced
pressure on clutches/bands which allows slippage. As the fluid heats
up, the viscosity decreases and fluid flow increases (and the pressure
drop is less) resulting in normal operation.
5) The internal parts are so worn that clearances when cold are great
enough to prevent proper engagement of the bands/clutches. As parts
heat up, they expand, reducing clearances, which allows normal
operation.
6) A combination of all of the above.

Since you bought the car used, with over 100k miles it is entirely
possible the fluid was never changed. Changing it so late in the game
might not do any good - particularly if the transmission has been
slipping for awhile.

Once an automatic starts slipping it is not going to last long.
Slipping increases the wear on the bands/clutches and mating surfaces
and generates a lot of additional heat. Slipping "burns" fluid which
can further clog internal passages and interfere with the operation of
the actuators. It is a viscous circle. Slipping leads to more slipping
and eventually to complete transmission failure.

If you are looking for a miracle you can try a couple of things - 1)
Pay for a complete transmission flush. This might open up clogged
passages and allow normal operation, or it might remove the crud that
is actually the only thing left allowing your transmission to work at
all (definitely a crap shoot at this point).  2) Pour in one of the
many "fine" transmission additives on the shelf at your local auto
parts store (from companies like Lucas, Gunk, Bars, CD2, K&W, Prolong,
No Leak, CRC). Ordinarily I would not go near any of this stuff with a
ten foot pole, but it sounds like you are already 90% of the way
towards needing a new transmission. A miracle may be your last hope.
Here are a couple of the "miracle" additives available for a desperate
person  -

http://www.autobarn.net/luc10009.html -Lucas Transmission Fix with ATF
Conditioner
http://www.autobarn.net/chm15-12.html - Gunk Transeal Automatic
Transmission Sealer

If you have faith, then the Lucas stuff sounds like the perfect "fix."
Personally, I think your only fix is going to be a used or rebuilt
transmission. If it was my car, I'd schedule an appointment with a
Honda dealer or a reputable independent transmission shop (check
around, there are lots of disreputable transmission shops out there).

Ed
Scott Dorsey - 20 Mar 2007 17:34 GMT
>If you are looking for a miracle you can try a couple of things - 1)
>Pay for a complete transmission flush. This might open up clogged
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>Honda dealer or a reputable independent transmission shop (check
>around, there are lots of disreputable transmission shops out there).

The Lucas stuff is mostly a detergent that gets some of that old
varnish into solution.  Also worth trying is the Royal Purple synthetic
ATF, which has stronger solvent properties than most and will help
dissolve those deposits.

Changing the fluid or adding the Lucas stuff will take only a short
amount of time and minimal cost, and it might help you eke a little
bit more life out of the transmission before it finally goes.  It's
not a real fix, though, and I agree that it's only a matter of time
before it's time to replace it.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

newjerseydevilsrock2000@gmail.com - 21 Mar 2007 14:08 GMT
On Mar 19, 8:22 pm, newjerseydevilsrock2...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 19, 11:16 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
yeah thanks guys for your help. It was my transmission. I had to get a
rebuilt one. Thanks again for your help.
newjerseydevilsrock2000@gmail.com - 20 Mar 2007 01:25 GMT
On Mar 19, 10:13 am, newjerseydevilsrock2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I have a 98' Honda Accord Ex V6 3.0L. When the car is cold the
> transmission slips and will give a big jolt when getting into gear.
> Once the car is warm the temperature seems to drop a little and then
> it shifts perfect. Please help me and tell what is wrong and what I
> should do. Thank you.

It has 115k and the fluids were changed two days ago. Also why does it
only slip when it is cold? Also could it be the torque Converter?
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Mar 2007 02:22 GMT
> On Mar 19, 10:13 am, newjerseydevilsrock2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I have a 98' Honda Accord Ex V6 3.0L. When the car is cold the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It has 115k and the fluids were changed two days ago. Also why does it
> only slip when it is cold? Also could it be the torque Converter?

It is not unusual for automatic transmissions in older cars to be slow to
engage, or to slip a bit, when they are cold...

Your transmission may have never been serviced.. You dont really know.

EVEN IF IT HAD, things wear.

Slow engagement or slipping may mean that you have worn parts, including
clutch packs, or a worn pump.  When the car is cold, the effective line
pressure
may be too low to make the tranny work as it should.

Some people never change the fluid (or filters, if your car has one).  They
just
run the very sh.t out of the car and trade it in...

Since you have already had the tranny serviced, the most logical scenario is
that you have wear in the tranny and you will, at some time or the other in
the
future, need a rebuild...  Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but you are,
IMO, living on borrowed time.

This is just my opinion, and is worth just what you paid for it.
fweddybear - 20 Mar 2007 02:57 GMT
> On Mar 19, 10:13 am, newjerseydevilsrock2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I have a 98' Honda Accord Ex V6 3.0L. When the car is cold the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It has 115k and the fluids were changed two days ago. Also why does it
> only slip when it is cold? Also could it be the torque Converter?

   If it didn't slip before you had the service done, and it is doing it
now (after the service), I would bring it back to the shop where you had it
done and tell them....this may be a dumb question, but did you check the
level after the service?

Fwed
John Kunkel - 20 Mar 2007 19:31 GMT
> On Mar 19, 10:13 am, newjerseydevilsrock2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I have a 98' Honda Accord Ex V6 3.0L. When the car is cold the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It has 115k and the fluids were changed two days ago. Also why does it
> only slip when it is cold? Also could it be the torque Converter?

On a high mileage unit the internal rubber seals are often hardened and
shrunk, this causes some leakage at the clutches and the clutches will slip
until the fluid warms up and softens the seals a little.
Also, in high mileage units that have not had frequent fluid changes, the
old fluid can have a more aggresive coefficient of friction than fresh
fluid; this can cause slippage to start shortly after a fluid change.

If seals are the problem, short of an overhaul, the only thing to try would
be an additive like Trans-X or Lucas that softens the seals.
 
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