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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / March 2007

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Buy cheapest gasoline?

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J J - 25 Mar 2007 14:03 GMT
There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.  

The few times I have purchased cheap no brand name gasolines I have
regretted it.  Car is hard to start, or when running it runs rough, it
pings under load. Then I end up buying Heat and Techron to clean out the
mess the cheap gasoline caused.

I think high price cars do run better on better brands of fuel and
higher octane.
I had a Nissan that would run on anything but my Towncar  pings with
unleaded.  Even though it is suppose to run on unleaded, there is
noticeable improvement if i buy mid grade or premium.  

Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
with the name brand that has not caused you problems?
HLS@nospam.nix - 25 Mar 2007 15:22 GMT
\> Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
> with the name brand that has not caused you problems?

I buy at places where I get reasonable prices.  I often buy at WalMart
because
the prices are as good as I can usually find.  I will not pay a premium of
40-50 cents per gallon to buy a name brand high test, when my car is spec'ed
for unleaded. And have never had any problems with this.

Recently the local WalMart got their tanks contaminated with diesel, and
that left a number of people stranded. When the accident came to light,
WalMart
stepped up to the plate and did the right thing.

On one occasion, I found a Texaco station that was buying offgrade crap
and selling it as diesel.  I reported it to Texaco corporate, and it was
soon
no longer a Texaco station.  (Texaco lab in Houston did the analysis.)
Texaco behaved honorably in stopping this scam joint.

I think you can occasionally get trashy fuel at any station if an accident
has occurred, but the events are probably rare.
* - 26 Mar 2007 14:07 GMT
HLS@nospam.nix wrote in article
<_vvNh.241$Rg4.46@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>...

> \> Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
> > with the name brand that has not caused you problems?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> WalMart
> stepped up to the plate and did the right thing.

The "Right Thing" would have been for Wal*Mart to hire qualified people who
know what they are doing, and that diesel does NOT belong in the gasoline
storage tank.....and to compensate them for their skills and knowledge.

> On one occasion, I found a Texaco station that was buying offgrade crap
> and selling it as diesel.  

They were buying something that was NOT diesel oil, and selling it as
diesel? What was it, Canola oil?
HLS@nospam.nix - 26 Mar 2007 14:22 GMT
> The "Right Thing" would have been for Wal*Mart to hire qualified people who
> know what they are doing, and that diesel does NOT belong in the gasoline
> storage tank.....and to compensate them for their skills and knowledge.

I dont know how this works.  The gasoline at the WalMart station is serviced
by Murphy Oil.  Whether the transport driver made the mistake, or whether
the
diesel was in the wrong compartments of the delivey tanker, I just dont
know.
It is not the first time this sort of thing has happened to other brand name
service stations.

But I agree, they need to be more careful.

> > On one occasion, I found a Texaco station that was buying offgrade crap
> > and selling it as diesel.
>
> They were buying something that was NOT diesel oil, and selling it as
> diesel? What was it, Canola oil?

Nope, it was not canola oil.  It was an aromatic naphtha from a refinery
in the Houston area.  But not diesel.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 26 Mar 2007 18:32 GMT
www.devilfinder.com    How to make your own automobile fuel

(there is nice ''benefit'' too)
cuhulin
<"« Paul »"> - 27 Mar 2007 01:51 GMT
> HLS@nospam.nix wrote in article
> <_vvNh.241$Rg4.46@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>...
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> know what they are doing, and that diesel does NOT belong in the gasoline
> storage tank.....and to compensate them for their skills and knowledge.

Tanker drivers fill the tanks at all hours of day and night.  Store
employees don't have anything to do with that.  Often they don't even
know where the tanks are.
Tegger - 27 Mar 2007 03:11 GMT
" <\"« Paul »\">" <X47-A4P@houston.rr.com> wrote in
news:46087824.A5EB95C@houston.rr.com:

> Tanker drivers fill the tanks at all hours of day and night.  Store
> employees don't have anything to do with that.  Often they don't even
> know where the tanks are.

Doesn't anybody check tank levels with a long stick any more?

Signature

Tegger

<"« Paul »"> - 27 Mar 2007 06:00 GMT
> " <\"« Paul »\">" <X47-A4P@houston.rr.com> wrote in
> news:46087824.A5EB95C@houston.rr.com:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> Tegger

They can, but they can't use the numbers to satisfy Fed 40 CFR 280
requirements.
So, few people do that anymore.  They would also have to use an
alternate means of inventory control AND leak detection like inventory
reconciliation AND ground water sampling / sniffers.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 27 Mar 2007 05:54 GMT
" <\"« Paul »\">" wrote:

> > HLS@nospam.nix wrote in article
> > <_vvNh.241$Rg4.46@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net>...
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> employees don't have anything to do with that.  Often they don't even
> know where the tanks are.

And they purchase from multiple suppliers, depending on who bids low.
They may not get the same driver twice in a row who knows the tank
layouts.

Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ban the bomb.  Save the world for conventional warfare.

<"« Paul »"> - 28 Mar 2007 01:25 GMT
> > Tanker drivers fill the tanks at all hours of day and night.  Store
> > employees don't have anything to do with that.  Often they don't even
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> They may not get the same driver twice in a row who knows the tank
> layouts.

End users have contracts with transport companies.  The same company
will bring the fuel.  You are correct about different drivers though.
The usual driver may be on vacation or sick and someone that is not
familiar with the site may have taken over for a while.
Scott Dorsey - 25 Mar 2007 15:36 GMT
>The few times I have purchased cheap no brand name gasolines I have
>regretted it.  Car is hard to start, or when running it runs rough, it
>pings under load. Then I end up buying Heat and Techron to clean out the
>mess the cheap gasoline caused.

Depends on the cheap gasoline involved.  For the most part, the gas is all
the same, but the additive package is very different.  How much of a problem
that is depends on your car.

>I think high price cars do run better on better brands of fuel and
>higher octane.
>I had a Nissan that would run on anything but my Towncar  pings with
>unleaded.  Even though it is suppose to run on unleaded, there is
>noticeable improvement if i buy mid grade or premium.  

If this is the case, I would suspect you have a lot of carbon deposits in
the engine that need to be cleaned out.  If you are getting pinging with
the gasoline recommended for the engine, it's a sign you need to clean
the engine.

>Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
>with the name brand that has not caused you problems?

Hell, go down to Mexico where people will strain the gas through cheesecloth
before putting it in their tank, and where 87 octane is considered high grade.
Weird thing, I used Pemex Verde in my '86 BMW for a while with no problems
either.  Cheap gas in the US is pretty good in comparison.

Try the cut rate gas.  If you have a problem with that particular brand,
don't use it again.  The absolute worst that can happen is that you'll have
to change your fuel filter.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 25 Mar 2007 16:17 GMT
> There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
> cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> pings under load. Then I end up buying Heat and Techron to clean out the
> mess the cheap gasoline caused.

There certain can be differences in quality from station to station.
Unfortunately, price is not always a reliable guide.  Kind of pot luck
unless you know station really well.
From: "« Paul »" - 25 Mar 2007 17:23 GMT
> There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
> cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
> with the name brand that has not caused you problems?

Buy cheap but stay away from those rundown places with no names.
There was one place in north Houston, Texas, USA, that used to sell
off grade batches - like all toluene, or all xylene.
But they are gone now.
HLS@nospam.nix - 26 Mar 2007 01:01 GMT
"From: "« Paul »"" <"From: \"« Paul »\""@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> Buy cheap but stay away from those rundown places with no names.
> There was one place in north Houston, Texas, USA, that used to sell
> off grade batches - like all toluene, or all xylene.
> But they are gone now.\

My previous example of the Texaco station was on Highway 90 East, near
Channelview.
anumber1 - 25 Mar 2007 17:47 GMT
> There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
> cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.  
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
> with the name brand that has not caused you problems?

Perhaps more importantly, Buy from a high volume station.

Fresh stock is good!
Brent P - 25 Mar 2007 19:37 GMT
> There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
> cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> pings under load. Then I end up buying Heat and Techron to clean out the
> mess the cheap gasoline caused.

Gasoline distribution is such that all brands are the same except for the
additive package of detergents and so forth.

Basically each company puts X gallons in to the pipeline and they take X
gallons out of the pipeline at the other end. Odds are it's not the same
X gallons. The additives are then added, if I remember right in the
tanker truck or as the gasoline is going into the tanker.

The difference between brands is rather trivial. Occasionally a higher
name brand gasoline is probably a good thing to get the additives to help
keep things clean but hardly something that needs to be every fill up.

When gasoline prices are going up I often find mobil, shell, BP, etc are
cheaper than citgo, speedway, walmart, etc. At those times I get the name
brand. Sometimes if it's only a one or two cent difference as well.
* - 26 Mar 2007 14:17 GMT
Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in article
<K8GdnQonLZLoXJvbnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@comcast.com>...
> > There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
> > cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>  
> Gasoline distribution is such that all brands are the same except for the

> additive package of detergents and so forth.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The difference between brands is rather trivial. Occasionally a higher
> name brand gasoline is probably a good thing to get the additives to help

> keep things clean but hardly something that needs to be every fill up.
>
> When gasoline prices are going up I often find mobil, shell, BP, etc are
> cheaper than citgo, speedway, walmart, etc. At those times I get the name

> brand. Sometimes if it's only a one or two cent difference as well.

And that concept of different additive packages really only holds true in
larger, metropolitan areas where each brand has its own depot.

In rural areas - such as Maine - you see the tanker trucks leaving the
Portland tank farms and dropping their loads at differently-branded
outlets.

The same truck might drop 5000 gallons at a store with a one oil company
sign out front then make its next drop at a place with a  different oil
company logo.

The only differences nowadays is in the credit cards they have contracted
to accept.

How long has this been going on?

Well, even the old "Blue Sunoco" - blue in color to, allegedly,
differentiate it from the more "inferior" stuff - wasn't really blue until
it hit the truck's tank and the dye block was added.

As was pointed out, there is no separation in the pipeline.
z - 26 Mar 2007 19:55 GMT
> Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> <K8GdnQonLZLoXJvbnZ2dnUVZ_sudn...@comcast.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> As was pointed out, there is no separation in the pipeline

What about the Amoco unleaded, back when that was unusual?
Brent P - 26 Mar 2007 20:01 GMT
>> As was pointed out, there is no separation in the pipeline

> What about the Amoco unleaded, back when that was unusual?

I assume that was long enough ago that distribution was different.

The history channel has a program that does a pretty good overview of
gasoline distribution as it is today.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 26 Mar 2007 21:35 GMT
You should't trust the History channel all the time.They have been known
to get their ''facts'' messed up before.
cuhulin
Brent P - 26 Mar 2007 21:47 GMT
> You should't trust the History channel all the time.They have been known
> to get their ''facts'' messed up before.

In this case they match every other source including the gasoline faq.
* - 26 Mar 2007 21:56 GMT
z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in article
<1174935326.350621.102260@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>...
> > Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> > <K8GdnQonLZLoXJvbnZ2dnUVZ_sudn...@comcast.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> What about the Amoco unleaded, back when that was unusual?

You could only buy Amoco "White Gas" in areas where Amoco had their own
depots. Outlying areas with Amoco signs out friont did NOT offer "White
Gas."

We used to use it in Coleman stoves and lanterns when I was a kid in the
'50s, and I remember my father having to go to specific gas stations to get
the "White Gas."
<"« Paul »"> - 27 Mar 2007 01:51 GMT
> Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in article
> <K8GdnQonLZLoXJvbnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@comcast.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> As was pointed out, there is no separation in the pipeline.

You have very little knowledge of the subject matter.
* - 27 Mar 2007 14:18 GMT
<"« Paul »"> <X47-A4P@houston.rr.com> wrote in article
<460878CA.EB549B95@houston.rr.com>...

> You have very little knowledge of the subject matter.

Yeah....I know.

I ONLY have 45 years' experience in the automotive service and repair
industry.....

Looking forward to you "straightening me out...." and showing me the error
of my ways.
Steve W. - 27 Mar 2007 17:12 GMT
http://www.landfield.com/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/

Signature

Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, BBQ in one hand, martini in the other, body
thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming: "WOO HOO what a ride!"

lugnut - 26 Mar 2007 13:30 GMT
>There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
>cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.  
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
>with the name brand that has not caused you problems?

I have owned quite a few Ford products over the last 30
years.  My first EEC-IV system was in 1986 and from then on,
they have - without exception - ran better and gotten better
mileage with the cheap stuff.  The only fuel related problem
I have had was a load of water from a Shell station a few
years back that shut me down - not a cheapie station or
brand.  We routinely run these things over 200k miles with
no fuel problems.

If your Towncar pings on branded regular and is a 1992 or
newer, it probably needs it's EGR ports and/or the MAF
sensor cleaned.  These are common problems.  It will only
get worse as time goes by wanting more octane because of the
additional deposits.  Get the EGR ports and MAF cleaned and
put it back on regular fuel.  There are pictures of how to
do it on the net.  You will be very pleasantly surprised and
rewarded with greatly improved performance and fuel economy.
The price of the car has little to do with octane
requirement other than the fact that the manufacturers put
the higher performance engines requiring higher octane in
higher priced cars.  Your Towncar is not one of them.

Lugnut
z - 26 Mar 2007 19:54 GMT
> There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
> cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.  
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
> with the name brand that has not caused you problems?

Back when I was a kid and the dinosaurs were still creating petroleum,
there was one oil facility at the outskirts of town, where all the
tanker trucks for all the service stations would fill up. There was a
big tank near the gate labelled "TCP" where the Texaco tankers would
stop for a shot. (remember the days of Texaco with TCP? Remember
Texaco?)
* - 26 Mar 2007 21:58 GMT
z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in article
<1174935252.956584.64140@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>...
> > There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
> > cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.  
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> stop for a shot. (remember the days of Texaco with TCP? Remember
> Texaco?)

I just passed my 60th, and my memory isn't quite what it once was, but
wasn't it Shell that had all the letters such as "TCP"?
Steve - 27 Mar 2007 16:42 GMT
> I just passed my 60th, and my memory isn't quite what it once was, but
> wasn't it Shell that had all the letters such as "TCP"?

I don't remember "TCP," but I do remember Enco (remember Enco before it
was Exxon?) advertising "HTC" or something like that, allegedly an
additive to combat hesitation.  All the oil companies played around with
alphabet soup additives at one time or another, it seems :-)
clifto - 27 Mar 2007 18:17 GMT
>> I just passed my 60th, and my memory isn't quite what it once was, but
>> wasn't it Shell that had all the letters such as "TCP"?
>
> I don't remember "TCP,"

Tri-cresyl phosphate. Valve lubricant if I remember.

> but I do remember Enco (remember Enco before it  
> was Exxon?)

I remember Esso before it was Enco.

> advertising "HTC" or something like that, allegedly an  
> additive to combat hesitation.  All the oil companies played around with
> alphabet soup additives at one time or another, it seems :-)

True, but the one I remember best (if at all!) is TCP, from the Shell
commercials. It was also on a shiny sticker on the premium pumps.

Signature

"This, then, is the essence of Gore's complaint:
there are too many humans and they are too well off."
-- Robert Tracinski

HLS@nospam.nix - 28 Mar 2007 02:45 GMT
> True, but the one I remember best (if at all!) is TCP, from the Shell
> commercials. It was also on a shiny sticker on the premium pumps.

TCP (you are right, tricresylphosphate) is a generic name now, and was
probably
used by lots of gasoline formulators years ago.  It is forbidden now, IIRC.

Shell also advertised Super Shell with Platformate (agaian, IIRC).
Platformate
was a platinum reforming product from the refineries which was largely
BTX -benzene-toluene-xylene.  Some nasty cancer causing stuff.
G Mulcaster - 28 Mar 2007 04:22 GMT
>I just passed my 60th, and my memory isn't quite what it once was, but
>wasn't it Shell that had all the letters such as "TCP"?

Yes.  My Dad was a Shell distributor.  He called it Tom Cat P...

Gary
Calvin - 27 Mar 2007 22:24 GMT
> There have been numerous articles saying there is no difference between
> cut rate and major brand gasoline.   They say buy by price alone.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Based on your experience do you buy cut rate cheap gasoline; or stick
> with the name brand that has not caused you problems?

I had a VW Fox that was pretty picky about it's gas.  It was
underpowered and inefficient to begin with, so any loss in power made
it almost useless.  There were times when I first owned it in - about
2002-2003 - when I would floor it and not much would happen.  I
eventually figured out that there were some brands it wouldn't burn.
Marathon and Clark are the names that come to mind.

The GM's I've owned - Tech4 Celebrity, 3.1 V6 Lumina, and 3.4 V6
Impala - all seemed to ping under load with 87 octane but ran fine
with the 89.  The 3.0 V6 Taurus runs equally mediocre on any gas I put
in it.  My guess is that the GM's were slightly more agressively tuned
and so the could wring more out of the gas.

Calvin
 
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