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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / April 2007Shitty luck or bad mechanics?
Shitty luck, or a sloppy mechanic? Or both. Bought a 00 Mazda 626 two weeks ago, corrision, fluids, engine noise etc. were all fine - and a mechanic in Pasadena found it to be in almost perfect condition. Also passed smog with flying colors. Now I took it to a local guy (in Northridge) to fix the small issues - dirty oil pan & wheel alignment - and it came back with a $1500 bill. What went wrong here? Did I make a mistake? Was the Pasadena mechanic bad? Or these things just "sometimes happen" when you buy a used car?! Here are the full details. Prices includes parts, labor and tax in CA. 1. Brakes $320 The Pasadena shop rated the rear breaks at 40%, and declared it didn't find any hydraulic brakefluid loss. Now the Northridge shop reported them at %15, and showed me brake fluid outside the cylinder - evidence of leaking. I have no idea how they look at a shoe and decide its wear (with a caliper?), it looked about 2mm thick to me, but the cylinder leak sounds like the big deal. And expensive. Isn't that a serious safety issue? How liable is the Pasadena shop for missing it out? Also, is it a must to flush the brakes when changing the cylinders? 2. Tires $200 Originally, I pointed out small cracks in the tires, Pasadena said it's nothing serious, and tested the treads to be at 4 to 9.5mm. They found out the car pulls right before and after rotation, and recommended alignment. Northridge claims one tire just might explode, found no alignment issues, but pointed 3 out of 4 tires show irregular, completely mismatching wear, and therefore recommended replacing all four. 3. Crack in Exhaust Manifold $570 I don't even remember how they found out this one - general noise is normal and as said, smog is fine, but there is a slight hiss from the manifold's area. Why on earth should I replace that before it really gets bad. Also, do you need to replace the manifold & collector gaskets when replacing the manifold? Instead of replacing, is it possible to seal the crack? 4. Fuel Pressure Regulator Diaphragm $366 I could live with it if that was the only problem. A week after the purchase the Check Engine light turned on. Turns out there's a Mitchell bulletin about that. This specific diaphragm is sensitive to (cheap) alcohol-rich gas, and when damaged may allow fuel to enter the vacum supply line, entering the cylinder on cold and cuasing a rich mixture misfire. They turned the indicator off. Should I wait and see how long before it comes back? Price includes the computer code check I already paid for. 5. Engine Oil Pan clean $50 Now it'd be possible to see if there is an oil like, or it's just old buildup. But it looks like a washer replacement, the tiniest of all these problems. If you think these prices are a rip-off, please do tell. And you know what, the cylinder leak residue might've been green, and brake fluid is reddish; maybe Northridge is one big scam. I really don't know what to think, only that the most affordable next step would be to take the car to a 3rd shop before doing any of these costly fixes. If you actually read everything to here... I should probably pay you. Drew Binba <drorworld@yahoo.com> wrote in article <1175742814.831742.80660@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>... > Shitty luck, or a sloppy mechanic? > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > If you actually read everything to here... I should probably pay you. That'll be $50.....CASH ONLY! > 1. Brakes $320 > The Pasadena shop rated the rear breaks at 40%, and declared it didn't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > caliper?), it looked about 2mm thick to me, but the cylinder leak > sounds like the big deal. And expensive. Percentage worn is a really poor way to let a customer know how far the brakes are worn. The problem is that I would wager very few technicians could tell you what the "new" thickness is on any given brake shoe.....so how could they possibly give you a percentage worn number unless they knew how thick it was originally! I seen this with some brake shoes on GM vehicles....some come right from the factory brand new and only measure 3mm depth. Some other shop that doesn't know better would be telling you that the rear brakes are "almost" worn out, when in fact they are like new. You mentioned 2mm. If in fact that is the case.....I would say you still have enough brake shoe left to last for a while. Rear drum brakes do not usually wear out at anywhere close to the rate that front disc brake pads wear. The fluid "leak" at the rear wheel cylinders. I'd have to see it myself, but this is one of the biggest scams around. Many wheel cylinders will show evidence of "fluid" at the seal area. It usually just turns out to be assembly grease, but some techs just love to throw wheel cylinders at vehicles all day long. It may be legit, but no-one here could say for sure. > Isn't that a serious safety issue? How liable is the Pasadena shop for > missing it out? I think you are jumping the gun! Did your brakes fail? No, then I don't think you should be worrying about the first shop. > Also, is it a must to flush the brakes when changing the cylinders? It's never a "must" to do anything. But if the wheel cylinders are legitimately leaking brake fluid, then flushing the brake fluid is probably not a bad idea. > 3. Crack in Exhaust Manifold $570 > I don't even remember how they found out this one - general noise is > normal and as said, smog is fine, but there is a slight hiss from the > manifold's area. Why on earth should I replace that before it really > gets bad. Sounds like you are being upsold "the world". > If you think these prices are a rip-off, please do tell. And you know > what, the cylinder leak residue might've been green, and brake fluid > is reddish; maybe Northridge is one big scam. No brake fluid that I've seen looks "reddish". It's usually clear with possibly a slight yellow tinge to it. > I really don't know what to think, only that the most affordable next > step would be to take the car to a 3rd shop before doing any of these > costly fixes. Yes....that's what I would be doing. Try to find a shop with a known good reputation. Of course, you'll be paying for another inspection, but that's just part of the game. Ian > 1. Brakes $320 > The Pasadena shop rated the rear breaks at 40%, and declared it didn't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > missing it out? > Also, is it a must to flush the brakes when changing the cylinders? IMHO, you got taken on this repair. Slight seepage of brake fluid around a wheel cylinder is normal. Some shops will pull the boot back from around the piston and say "See! It's leaking!" and then sell you a wheel cylinder for $50 to $75 that in reality costs less than $20 in most cases. Replacing the wheel cylinder takes 10 minutes at best. A really shady place will try to get you for a wheel hardware kit for another $30 to $40 every time they do a drum brake replacement. 2mm of brake lining material is too thin in my opinion and you were probably due for rear brakes, but not to the tune of $320. To answer your last question, yes it is a good idea to flush the old crappy brake fluid out of the system when doing a brake job. > 2. Tires $200 > Originally, I pointed out small cracks in the tires, Pasadena said [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > issues, but pointed 3 out of 4 tires show irregular, completely > mismatching wear, and therefore recommended replacing all four. I dunno about this one. Sounds suspicious, but tires are a wear item and if they are more than about 4 years old you should consider changing them. They do dry-rot. > 3. Crack in Exhaust Manifold $570 > I don't even remember how they found out this one - general noise is > normal and as said, smog is fine, but there is a slight hiss from the > manifold's area. Why on earth should I replace that before it really > gets bad. A cracked manifold will do everything -but- hiss. Exhaust noises can be anything from a clack to a tiny popping noise to a loud thumping noise like thor is hammering around in your engine compartment. But not a hiss. If the manifold is bad you'll know it every time you start the engine. And so will your neighbors. > Also, do you need to replace the manifold & collector gaskets when > replacing the manifold? Instead of replacing, is it possible to seal > the crack? Usually the gaskets fall apart if they are old. The asbestos donuts can usually be re-used if you are careful, but the flange gaskets..forget it. Change em. The gaskets are inexpensive and are important for a good repair. As for your last question..you might have been able to get the crack(if there was one) welded, but it would probably just crack again an inch away from the repair and put you back where you started. > 4. Fuel Pressure Regulator Diaphragm $366 > I could live with it if that was the only problem. A week after the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > vacum supply line, entering the cylinder on cold and cuasing a rich > mixture misfire. This problem will also cause you all sorts of untold problems because all that extra fuel is washing the oil off the walls of the cylinders and diluting your engine oil. I've found that those little pressure regulators are quite pricey. > 5. Engine Oil Pan clean $50 > Now it'd be possible to see if there is an oil like, or it's just old > buildup. But it looks like a washer replacement, the tiniest of all > these problems. You absolutely have to be kidding me on this one. Fifty bucks to degrease the OIL PAN? Do you know how much a can of engine degrease spray costs these days? A whopping TWO BUCKS. And the best cleaning tool is something you probably already have...an old toothbrush. You'll have a shiny new-looking engine in no time doing it yourself. Find a new mechanic. > If you think these prices are a rip-off, please do tell. And you know > what, the cylinder leak residue might've been green, and brake fluid > is reddish; maybe Northridge is one big scam. Brake fluid is clear, perhaps very slightly pink when new, and brown to black when old. Green residue is coolant, red is transmission and/ or power steering. Honest mechanics are a hard creature to find. If I were you I'd buy the factory service manuals for your vehicle and hit the books so you know a little more about what goes on under the hood and such. An educated customer who knows a little more about the inner workings of his or her car is less likely to be taken for a ride, and it is my opinion that you got ripped off here. At the very least don't go back to this shop again. Now, shall I email you my mailing address so you can send me a check? ;) Good luck with it. Chris Wow, yeah, I should be sending you a check :-) (I just had a thought, paid expert-answers services failed, but Yahoo Answers is thriving with a score system - so why not start a service where you earn points for good answers in your own area of expertise, and then 'buy' answers from others?) Anyway: I returned from the 3rd mechanic today, eventually making (and paying for) about 25% of the offered fixes. Your answers actually fit verl well together with what I learned: 1a. Indeed when it comes to shoes, I get figures all over the place: %60-%50-%25 for front brakes, %40-%15-%25 for the rear. Mechanic #3 suggested coming back in 2000 miles to replace them. 1b. Pulling the boot back from around the piston and showing the "evidence of fluid"... that's *exactly* what they did! And mechanic #3 eventually said "yeah, there's some seepage," and we'll be fine taking a look at it again when I come back for the shoes in some 2000 miles. Btw, they wanted just $22 per cylinder... but $104 for labor (incl. resurfacing rotors), and add $65 for flushing. 2. Mechanic #3 agreed that the tires are in bad, unsafe condition. I got 3 new ones, Kelly Springfield Ultra GT - which I can't find online. (was I sold up again...?) 3. Manifold - indeed, no point doing anything before (and if) it gets serious. 5. Maybe I did make a mistake with the cleaning, though they did a pressure clean and not just degreasing. They charged $6 for the degreaser, $42 for labor. 4. Now's the real confusing part: the OBD code was P0303, cylinder #3 misfire. I did some research, and it is a bitch: there is a long list of things that can be wrong, might take a lot of time and replacement to find the culprit. Mech #3 said the fuel pump checked fine, plugs checked fine, but there is a lean mixture in cyl #3. Smog test CO2 from two weeks ago is 14.8/15.1%, btw. Now I do notice a slightly rough idle, but the car did and still drives well. I think I'll just wait for the CEL to reappear before I do anything. As you can see, at least I have been learning a lot recently. -Drew P.S. Actually, no one charges for the inspection. Whaddayaknow. >. . . > I returned from the 3rd mechanic today, eventually making (and > paying for) about 25% of the offered fixes. . . . Finding a trustworthy and competent mechanic is a real B****h. You do it by asking around, and asking around, and asking around, and eventually by investing your money in a trial and error process. You seem to be off to a good start, i.e. ". . .3rd mechanic today. . ." Hint: you find a good doctor/surgeon the same way. The hospital gossip mill is a good way to start. The nurses know. Jason Binba <drorworld@yahoo.com> wrote in article <1175742814.831742.80660@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>... > Shitty luck, or a sloppy mechanic? > > If you think these prices are a rip-off, please do tell. ........ > I really don't know what to think, only that the most affordable next > step would be to take the car to a 3rd shop before doing any of these > costly fixes. I think you missed one possibility - Shitty Car Owner Attitude. I honestly don't know how some people manage to get out of bed each morning.....just KNOWING that the weight of the entire world is on their shoulders and that every, single person they deal with that day - is out to somehow screw them. And, when they lay their head on their pillow at the end of the day, worrying about how someone could have taken advantage of them that day without them discovering it, and what sort of nefarious schemes might be hatched against them tomorrow. Why don't you simply place the gun barrel in your mouth NOW, and avoid a lifetime of stress - which will probably come to the same end anyway? > Binba <drorwo...@yahoo.com> wrote in article > <1175742814.831742.80...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Why don't you simply place the gun barrel in your mouth NOW, and avoid a > lifetime of stress - which will probably come to the same end anyway? Oh f.ck off. I've been through the exact same wringer the OP is going through and in my case I feel that I am more than reasonable and have a good attitude. I know how to do most of the repairs that I would want a shop to do, and know what a reasonable time and price would be. I do not argue over bills when they're reasonable, and I do not question recommendations except for asking for explanations where required. I try to maintain a friendly, polite attitude at all times and don't waste their time with pointless crap. However, I still have a hard time finding a competent mechanic to work on my car, although I have certainly had my car worked on (one time each) by some mechanics who have failed to properly diagnose and repair the problem that caused me to send it to them in the first place. I've repeatedly been told "your car is fine" etc. when there's clearly an issue with it (in the most recent case, a severe vibration at highway speeds. Once I was even told in so many words to take my car somewhere else, with the clear implication that I was some kind of automotive hypochondriac. I have absolutely no problem believing that others might have similar issues. nate "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message > Oh f.ck off. I've been through the exact same wringer the OP is going > through and in my case I feel that I am more than reasonable and have [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > nate With you on all counts, Nate. N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in article <1176218562.442143.122160@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>... > > Binba <drorwo...@yahoo.com> wrote in article > > <1175742814.831742.80...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > required. I try to maintain a friendly, polite attitude at all times > and don't waste their time with pointless crap. My comments were not addressed towards YOU! Nobody can complain about someone who simply wants to understand what they are being charged for. They were addressed towards the OP who came in with the attitude that he was somehow being screwed - just because he was dealing with an auto repair situation..... .....you know, they're ALL thieves. His first comment was, ".......If you think these prices are a ripoff......." > However, I still have a hard time finding a competent mechanic to work > on my car, although I have certainly had my car worked on (one time [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I have absolutely no problem believing that others might have similar > issues. Couldn't agree more. The "American Worker" is a joke. Nobody wants to start at the bottom, learn, and build their way to the top. It's a result of the liberally-controlled education system. They instill an attitude of entitlement into the kids these days. They graduate thinking they are entitled to make $50,000 for stocking shelves at their local Wal*Mart - a position for which most are unqualified. The reason why so many jobs today require a college degree is that today's college degree provides just about the same amount of education that a high school diploma did a half-century ago - minus the reading, writing and math skills, of course. There are incompetent, dishonest, and unethical people in ALL walks of life these days. > Once I was even told in so many words to take my > car somewhere else, with the clear implication that I was some kind of > automotive hypochondriac. Funny, I don't remember working on your cars at all...... Seriously, though, people who come in with attitudes such as the one exhibited by the OP are quickly invited to disassociate themselves from me and my business. I am now semi-retired, and I have more business than I care to handle at this point, so I need not deal with attitudes. People who come in "...loaded for bear...." with the attitude that I'm dishonest and a thief and that I'm not about to take advantage of them are usually right. I'm not even going to do business with them, so it will be pretty hard for me to screw them. I've been at it for 45 years, and I'm sick and tired of dealing with the attitude that the auto service and repair industry is, somehow, unique in its employment of unethical people. The lack of ethics is rampant in ALL industries and occupations these days. I would just LOVE to know what the OP does for a living. Oftentimes, the people who are MOST worried about unethical people taking advantage of them, are basing their feelings on their own experiences and how THEY act in their own work place. > Oftentimes, the people who are MOST worried about unethical people > taking advantage of them, are basing their feelings on their own > experiences and how THEY act in their own work place. I'm not so sure such a sweeping statement is a valid one. Personally, I think the source of much customer suspicion is based on a feeling of being out of control of the situation. You see the same sort of thing when people are dealing with their bank, the tax department, all sorts of other situations where sums of money are changing hands (or have changed hands). The customer doesn't understand what's involved, but knows he will be told he needs to cough up a substantial sum of money. He is naturally supicious that he's being taken for a ride, since he has no way of knowing if he's being given accurate information, or if he will be treated fairly. And if something has actually gone wrong, the feeling of suspicion and anger increases dramatically, since now not only does the vendor now have the customer's money, but has left a problem that the customer is powerless to solve on his own. Add to the above the fact that many vendors and their employees are poorly trained in dealing with situations that have gone wrong, and you have a recipe for creating widespread distrust of vendors among consumers.  SignatureTegger "*" > Oftentimes, the people who are MOST worried about unethical people taking > advantage of them, are basing their feelings on their own experiences and > how THEY act in their own work place. Or they've just been screwed too many times. Cars are very complicated, and there are too few certified techs out there. That combined with the fact that it's a low paying profession and making good on mistakes is expensive and rare. - D "I've been at it for 45 years, and I'm sick and tired of dealing with the attitude that the auto service and repair industry is, somehow, unique in its employment of unethical people. The lack of ethics is rampant in ALL industries and occupations these days. " While your point is valid, one must weigh the difference between being overcharged for milk at the grocery store or being sold $500 worth of parts and labor unnecessarily. Mechanics are typically where people expect to spend a substantial sum for getting their mode of transportation repaired. Parting with as little money as possible is always paramount in someones mind, as is the fact that they realize they could be getting ripped off. 45 years of fixing cars should have taught you that the HONEST guys(and I know of a few) don't have to advertise to find work. People know, word gets around..these shops have people beating down their door. I've never once seem a coupon in the mail from them, nor do they have a fancy listing in the phone book. But they do have a good reputation, and that's not something you can fake. If you want to make a difference, then treat people right. As I've said to others before...if you don't know how to work on cars or don't have the space/tools, that's okay..but being an uneducated customer is NOT ok, hence the reason people should buy a shop manual, even a haynes manual if that's the only thing available, and start reading. Knowing a little more about what goes on under the hood is a good thing when your ride starts to act up. Chris > 45 years of fixing cars should have taught you that the HONEST > guys(and I know of a few) don't have to advertise to find work. People [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reputation, and that's not something you can fake. If you want to make > a difference, then treat people right. Unfortunately that is not the way it works. There are plenty of less than honest and less than competent shops that stay in business and have plenty of work. Often they are fixing things they screwed up previously (and getting well paid for it). Most car owners are profoundly clueless and taking their money is easier than clubbing seals. > As I've said to others before...if you don't know how to work on cars > or don't have the space/tools, that's okay..but being an uneducated > customer is NOT ok, hence the reason people should buy a shop manual, > even a haynes manual if that's the only thing available, and start > reading. Knowing a little more about what goes on under the hood is a > good thing when your ride starts to act up. That may be good advice and if it were generally followed repair manuals would be best sellers - but that's not going to happen. -jim > The "American Worker" is a joke. Nobody wants to start at the bottom, > learn, and build their way to the top. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they are entitled to make $50,000 for stocking shelves at their local > Wal*Mart - a position for which most are unqualified. That is the old MBa syndrome... Take a guy who has never dirtied his hands, give him a few courses in business, and then set him out to run the company. This is one reason we are so dreadfully F***ED UP> |
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