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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2007AMSOIL Synthetic 5W-40 European Engine Oil
European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil is specially formulated for the lubrication needs of modern European gasoline and diesel cars and light trucks. Formulated with advanced AMSOIL synthetic base stocks, premium additives and a 5W-40 viscosity rating, AMSOIL AFL is the preferred oil for virtually all European automobiles, especially turbo charged models. It is the only oil in North America to be recommended for the latest specifications of all three major European automakers - Volkswagen (Audi), BMW and Mercedes- Benz and the latest North American API specifications. http://www.lubedealer.com/amsoildave/ Product Description AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) is specially formulated for the lubrication needs of modern European gasoline and diesel cars and light trucks. Formulated with advanced AMSOIL synthetic base stocks, premium additives and a 5W-40 viscosity rating, AMSOIL AFL is the preferred oil for virtually all European automobiles, especially turbo charged models. It is the only oil in North America to be recommended for the latest specifications of all three major European automakers - Volkswagen (Audi), BMW and Mercedes- Benz and the latest North American API specifications. AMSOIL AFL is highly versatile for multiple applications. AMSOIL, the leader in automotive synthetic lubrication, produced the world's first API qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972. Trust the extensive experience of AMSOIL "The First in Synthetics®" to do the best job protecting your engine. Maximum Engine Protection AMSOIL Synthetic European Car Formula contains high quality anti-wear additives and surpasses the tough ACEA oil specifications for high temperature/high shear viscosity. It provides outstanding protection in high RPM, hot running engines and delivers dependable long-term performance for the extended drain intervals set by European automakers. Superior Engine Cleanliness The excellent oxidation stability, heat resistance and detergency properties of AMSOIL Synthetic European Car Formula keep engines clean. It is specially designed to prevent sludge and varnish deposits for reduced oil consumption, extended engine life and maximum overall performance. Minimizes Exhaust Emissions AMSOIL European Car Formula is designed for newer vehicle emission control systems. It meets current industry and vehicle manufacturer requirements for long life protection of gasoline vehicle catalytic converters and diesel particulate filters (DPF). All Season Performance The broad 5W-40 viscosity rating, low volatility (burn-off) and wax free nature of AMSOIL Synthetic European Car Formula make it excellent for hot and cold temperatures. Engine wear is reduced, oil thickening is controlled and vehicles start easier in cold temperatures. APPLICATION AMSOIL Synthetic European Car Formula is formulated to surpass the most demanding European specifications. It is recommended for European and North American gasoline or diesel vehicles requiring any of the following worldwide specifications: API SM/CF ACEA C3-04 ACEA A3/B3-04 ACEA A3/B4-04 BMW LL-04 Mercedes Benz 229.31, 229.51 Porsche Saab Volvo Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00, 505.01 DaimlerChrysler MS-10725 Service Life Recommended for the extended drain intervals established by the vehicle manufacturer or extend based on oil analysis. Change oil filter at time of oil change. Mixing AMSOIL AMSOIL AFL is compatible with conventional and synthetic motor oils. Mixing AMSOIL motor oils with other oils, however, will shorten the life expectancy and reduce the performance benefits. AMSOIL does not support extended drain intervals where oils have been mixed. Aftermarket oil additives are not recommended for use with AMSOIL motor oils. Health & Safety This product is not expected to cause health concerns when used for the intended application and according to the recommendations in the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). An MSDS is available upon request at 715-392-7101 or on the AMSOIL Website. Keep Out of Reach of Children. Don't pollute. Return used oil to collection centers. TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (updated as of 12/05) AFL Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) - 13.7 Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) - 80.8 Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) - 174 Viscosity CCS, cP @ °C (ASTM D-5293) - 5204 (-30) Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92) - 230 (446) Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92) - 246 (474) Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-97) - 42 (-44) Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D-5800) - 8.9 Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172B @ 40 kg, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr), Scar, mm - 0.44 Total Base Number - 8.0 HTHS (cP) (ASTM D-4683) - 3.7 Does it actually meet the European Manufacturer's specs, or is it just recommended (by Amsoil and/or Amsoil Dealers) for vehicles that have those specs? Amsoil is famous for recommending oils for applications even though the "recommended" oils don't actually meet the vehicle manufacturers stated requirements. This isn't exactly lying, but it sure is misleading. I just checked the Amsoil Corporate Website for this oil (http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/afl.aspx). As I expected, Amsoil never actually claims that this oil meets any of the specs listed. They just say it is recommended for use in vehicles that require any of the listed specifications. I also noted that this oil is NOT API certified. This is exactly the sort of misleading BS that creates the impression that Amsoil is a scam operation. If it meets the manufacturer's requirements, Amsoil would say that it does. Since they don't say it actually meets the vehicle manufacturer's requirements, I assume it does not meet those requirements. So my advice is - BUYERS BEWARE. Ed European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil is specially formulated for the lubrication needs of modern European gasoline and diesel cars and light trucks. Formulated with advanced AMSOIL synthetic base stocks, premium additives and a 5W-40 viscosity rating, AMSOIL AFL is the preferred oil for virtually all European automobiles, especially turbo charged models. It is the only oil in North America to be recommended for the latest specifications of all three major European automakers - Volkswagen (Audi), BMW and Mercedes- Benz and the latest North American API specifications. http://www.lubedealer.com/amsoildave/ Product Description AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) is specially formulated for the lubrication needs of modern European gasoline and diesel cars and light trucks. Formulated with advanced AMSOIL synthetic base stocks, premium additives and a 5W-40 viscosity rating, AMSOIL AFL is the preferred oil for virtually all European automobiles, especially turbo charged models. It is the only oil in North America to be recommended for the latest specifications of all three major European automakers - Volkswagen (Audi), BMW and Mercedes- Benz and the latest North American API specifications. AMSOIL AFL is highly versatile for multiple applications. AMSOIL, the leader in automotive synthetic lubrication, produced the world's first API qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972. Trust the extensive experience of AMSOIL "The First in Synthetics®" to do the best job protecting your engine. Maximum Engine Protection AMSOIL Synthetic European Car Formula contains high quality anti-wear additives and surpasses the tough ACEA oil specifications for high temperature/high shear viscosity. It provides outstanding protection in high RPM, hot running engines and delivers dependable long-term performance for the extended drain intervals set by European automakers. Superior Engine Cleanliness The excellent oxidation stability, heat resistance and detergency properties of AMSOIL Synthetic European Car Formula keep engines clean. It is specially designed to prevent sludge and varnish deposits for reduced oil consumption, extended engine life and maximum overall performance. Minimizes Exhaust Emissions AMSOIL European Car Formula is designed for newer vehicle emission control systems. It meets current industry and vehicle manufacturer requirements for long life protection of gasoline vehicle catalytic converters and diesel particulate filters (DPF). All Season Performance The broad 5W-40 viscosity rating, low volatility (burn-off) and wax free nature of AMSOIL Synthetic European Car Formula make it excellent for hot and cold temperatures. Engine wear is reduced, oil thickening is controlled and vehicles start easier in cold temperatures. APPLICATION AMSOIL Synthetic European Car Formula is formulated to surpass the most demanding European specifications. It is recommended for European and North American gasoline or diesel vehicles requiring any of the following worldwide specifications: API SM/CF ACEA C3-04 ACEA A3/B3-04 ACEA A3/B4-04 BMW LL-04 Mercedes Benz 229.31, 229.51 Porsche Saab Volvo Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00, 505.01 DaimlerChrysler MS-10725 Service Life Recommended for the extended drain intervals established by the vehicle manufacturer or extend based on oil analysis. Change oil filter at time of oil change. Mixing AMSOIL AMSOIL AFL is compatible with conventional and synthetic motor oils. Mixing AMSOIL motor oils with other oils, however, will shorten the life expectancy and reduce the performance benefits. AMSOIL does not support extended drain intervals where oils have been mixed. Aftermarket oil additives are not recommended for use with AMSOIL motor oils. Health & Safety This product is not expected to cause health concerns when used for the intended application and according to the recommendations in the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). An MSDS is available upon request at 715-392-7101 or on the AMSOIL Website. Keep Out of Reach of Children. Don't pollute. Return used oil to collection centers. TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES European Car Formula Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (updated as of 12/05) AFL Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) - 13.7 Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) - 80.8 Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) - 174 Viscosity CCS, cP @ °C (ASTM D-5293) - 5204 (-30) Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92) - 230 (446) Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-92) - 246 (474) Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-97) - 42 (-44) Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D-5800) - 8.9 Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172B @ 40 kg, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr), Scar, mm - 0.44 Total Base Number - 8.0 HTHS (cP) (ASTM D-4683) - 3.7 I just read an article in Lubes and Greases Magazine about getting a new oil certified. It can cost a quarter million for a new formulation. So I imagine that as long as the assoiler can sell there uncertified oil they will not invest the money in the tests that would show it actually meets specs. In fact, since they don't test it to spec it's entire possible they put in more additives then your catalytic converter can digest but what do they care, they don't warranty that and I doubt the automakers who wind up footing the bill under the emissions warranty are going to go to the trouble of showing the uncertified oil was the cause of emission control system failures. >Does it actually meet the European Manufacturer's specs, or is it just >recommended (by Amsoil and/or Amsoil Dealers) for vehicles that have [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] >Total Base Number - 8.0 >HTHS (cP) (ASTM D-4683) - 3.7 > I just read an article in Lubes and Greases Magazine about getting a > new oil certified. It can cost a quarter million for a new [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > under the emissions warranty are going to go to the trouble of showing > the uncertified oil was the cause of emission control system failures. 6-7 years ago I was dating a lady whose son had been ordering and installing Amsoil in her little car. They were running the car 12-15000 between changes. I was there and "tried" to change the oil. What a mess! The oil looked like Jello chocolate pudding coming out of the drain hole. I would never use that s*it, and wouldnt run ANY oil so long. By the way, picked up our new Avalon yesterday. First oil change is at 2500 miles. Thereafter at 5000 mile intervals, or less. On Apr 17, 7:37 am, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: > > I just read an article in Lubes and Greases Magazine about getting a > > new oil certified. It can cost a quarter million for a new [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > By the way, picked up our new Avalon yesterday. First oil change is at > 2500 miles. Thereafter at 5000 mile intervals, or less. You'll suffer no consequenses if you go 5K between O/C, even on the first one. The 2GR-FE only requires 5W30, so it's cheap to maintain, too. Toyota MDT in MO "Comboverfish" > You'll suffer no consequenses if you go 5K between O/C, even on the > first one. The 2GR-FE only requires 5W30, so it's cheap to maintain, > too. > > Toyota MDT in MO Thanks, Comboverfish... The book actually specifies the initial oil change at less than 3000 miles. In order to dance in step with the warranty, I will keep the schedule but appreciate the comments. I think the sludging problems have been solved now (??) On Apr 21, 10:45 am, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: > "Comboverfish" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I think the sludging problems have been solved now (??) I'm no engineer, but I would bet that the sludging issue has been addressed. I never took too well to the insinuation that the 5S-FE and the 1MZ-FE were (magically) sludge-prone, even though they are both direct descendents of earlier versions that never got any press for such behavior, yet in actuality sludged up the same way if neglected. The 2GR-FE and 2AZ-FE (closest currently available engines in terms of application) are completely new in every way. I trust they made "sludge resistance" a major factor during the engineering phase. Maybe owners will make a similar jump in maintenance intervals for the new series of engines, akin to the 3000 to 7500 mile interval jump in the 90's i.e. let's go 15000 miles between oil changes now and then complain about sludging, deteriorated seals and stuck rings. Toyota MDT in MO On Apr 21, 11:45 am, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: > "Comboverfish" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I think thesludgingproblems have been solved now (??) These cars are prone to sludging 1996-2001 Toyota 3.0 L 1MZ V6 August 1996-July 2001 Toyota Camry June 1998-May 2001 Toyota Camry Solara July 1997-May 2001 Toyota Sienna July 1996-May 2001 Toyota Avalon November 2000-July 2001 Toyota Highlander August 1998-July 2001 Lexus ES300 January 1998-July 2001 Lexus RX300 1996-2001 Toyota 5SFE I4 August 1996-July 2001 Toyota Camry June 1998-May 2001 Toyota Camry Solara August 1996-April 1999 Toyota Celica Ed > On Apr 21, 11:45 am, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Ed There's a little bit of horseshit in that list. Just a tad. Unless it's just an opinion. In that case, opine away, be ye the a.s- covering lawyergroup assigned by Toyota USA to write the list in the first place, or be ye those who believe it is 100% factual. Toyota MDT in MO >"....In fact, since they don't test it to > spec it's entire possible they put in more additives then your > catalytic converter can digest but what do they care, they don't > warranty that and I doubt the automakers who wind up footing the bill > under the emissions warranty are going to go to the trouble of showing > the uncertified oil was the cause of emission control system failures. Warranties... "Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny fixing your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. Courts of law will rule against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans." > Warranties... > "Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > related failure. Courts of law will rule against any manufacturer or > dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans." Instead of trusting the Amsoil sales people, you would do well to read what the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act really says. See http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode15/usc_sup_01_15_10_50.html . Do you honestly think that a manufacturer wouldn't try to void the warranty on your engine if they determined you were using an unapproved oil or not maintaining the vehicle per the maintenance schedule? And if they tried to void your warranty, how likely would it be that you would be able to provide better experts than they could and win a court case? It is true that they can't void the warranty on your radio because you used a lubricant that doesn't meet the manufacturer's specifications. The same is not true for the failure of internal engine parts. Ed > > Warranties... > > "Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ed Must reply with the following which are not my words but from the corporate site for public information. "Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and in getting the vehicle repaired. That's our pledge to you. AMSOIL INC. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem, AMSOIL will submit a claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary." In article <1176873470.047231.67220@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > Warranties... > > > "Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the > vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary." Contradicts your earlier statement. > Must reply with the following which are not my words but from the > corporate site for public information. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the > vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary." And I'll repeat - Go read the actual law and don't just blindly trust Amsoil's interpertation. Internal engine failures during the warranty period are extermely rare. In many cases the dealers won't even bother to ask what oil you used or how often it was changed. It is also very unlikley they would bother to have the oil analysed. So most people would never have a problem getting a failed engine repaired under warranty. However, the possibility exists that if you have an oil related engine failure, and for whatever reason, the dealer/manufacturer determines you did not change the oil at the proper intervals and/or used oils that do not meet the stated requirments, they could deny warranty coverage. If you don't think this is a possibility, read up on the Toyota sludge problems. Toyota originally denied warranty coverage to significant numbers of Customers becasue they could not produce satisfactory documents that proved they changed the oil at the proper intervals. In the end Toyota caved in and started covering the engines, but only under the treat of multiple class action law suits and lots of negative press. If there had only been one or two people complaining, I doubt Toyota would have given in. Why would any rational person risk voiding the warranty by using non- API certified Amsoil oil and extended change intervals, at least during the warranty period? I have never seen any credible evidence that Amsoil will extend the life of an engine beyond what can be achieved by regularly changing good quality API certified conventional oil of the latest grade. In my opinion risking your auto warranty by using a non-API certified oil and going to extended oil change intervals is a foolish decision. Even after the warranty period, I would not recommend going to extended drain intervals or using a non- API oil. But after the warranty period is over, it solely at your own risk. Ed "Ed White" <ce.white3@gmail.com> wrote in message > Why would any rational person risk voiding the warranty by using non- > API certified Amsoil oil and extended change intervals, at least > during the warranty period? Our new Toyota Avalon is specified to use 5W-30 oil, ILSAC multigrade type (bears the ILSAC API logo). They say you can use 10W-30 if you cant find the other, but that you should replace it at the next change. If Amsoil doesnt bear this logo, it would not be wise to use it. They say nothing about synthetic versus dino. The first change is supposed to come at about 2500-2750 miles. After that, they say 5000 miles is recommended, but in no case longer intervals than 6 months. There is some conflict between what you can find written in odd places about the maintenance schedule and what the dealership representatives tell you. We keep a log book, and err on the side of conservativism. On Apr 19, 3:34 pm, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: > "Ed White" <ce.whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > Why would any rational person risk voiding the warranty by using non- [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > representatives tell you. We keep a log book, and err on the side > of conservativism. Just curious, have many have ever used AMSOIL? I have a 2000 Dodge Intrepid with over 125,000 miles and have used AMSOIL in it since the first oil change and have only changed the 11 times. Engine doesn't burn any oil and is clean (no sludge laying about up on the cylinder heads). With all my new vehicles, I have never once let the dealer change my oil and never kept records. I have 6 cars in my family that all have AMSOIL in them. This includes a 1964 Chrysler 300K with a built up 413 pushing 400 hp. I shudder when I read people trust their cars to "quick lube" businesses or go to the dealer for oil changes. These places are using the cheapest oil they can find so their profits are up. I do all my own maintenance on my vehicles short of warranty work, transmissions or exhausts. I feel confident that AMSOIL products. > Just curious, have many have ever used AMSOIL? I used it in the early 80's on my '77 Torino. Pretty pricey at $6/quart back then when dino was, what, 39 cents? Liked it okay, but besides the price, the stuff was just too hard to get.  SignatureMusic hath charms to soothe the savage breast. That's why stereo has two channels. In article <1177024632.007476.20730@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > Just curious, have many have ever used AMSOIL? One would think that you'd be in a better position to know how many people have ever used Amsoil than anyone else here. > I have a 2000 Dodge > Intrepid with over 125,000 miles and have used AMSOIL in it since the > first oil change and have only changed the 11 times. Which engine? > Engine doesn't > burn any oil and is clean (no sludge laying about up on the cylinder > heads). I can say the same thing about my 98 Intrepid that AFAIK has never seen so much as an Amsoil label, much less had it used in it. > With all my new vehicles, I have never once let the dealer > change my oil and never kept records. This is significant because? > I have 6 cars in my family that all have AMSOIL in them. This > includes a 1964 Chrysler 300K with a built up 413 pushing 400 hp. Again, significant how? > I shudder when I read people trust their cars to "quick lube" > businesses or go to the dealer for oil changes. I'm lactose intolerant, I shudder when I see milk. > These places are > using the cheapest oil they can find so their profits are up. Having worked at a number of different dealerships of various brands, that statement is flat out speculation on your part. > I do > all my own maintenance on my vehicles short of warranty work, > transmissions or exhausts. I feel confident that AMSOIL products. Feeling confident is not the same as having an API, ILLSAC, ACEA, GM, Ford, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes Benz or BMW "approval." >On Apr 19, 3:34 pm, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: >> "Ed White" <ce.whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >businesses or go to the dealer for oil changes. These places are >using the cheapest oil they can find so their profits are up. If by cheapest you mean the least expensive oil that meets the specifications, sure. Every business does. Do you think the main Scamsoil factory is doing any different for whatever product they want to buy based on whatever specification they specify? I do >all my own maintenance on my vehicles short of warranty work, >transmissions or exhausts. I feel confident that AMSOIL products. > On Apr 19, 3:34 pm, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: > > "Ed White" <ce.whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > all my own maintenance on my vehicles short of warranty work, > transmissions or exhausts. I feel confident that AMSOIL products. I dont use Amsoil. I posted previously that my girlfriend, 6-7 years ago, used it and I tried to change the oil for her. I have never seen such gloppy mess ooze out of a drain hole. She ran the extended change intervals that Amsoil claims, but REALLY! I dont use Jiffy Lube either. I change my own oil. At the moment I am using Castrol. > On Apr 19, 3:34 pm, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: >> "Ed White" <ce.whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Just curious, have many have ever used AMSOIL? <BS snipped> > I shudder when I read people trust their cars to "quick lube" > businesses or go to the dealer for oil changes. These places are > using the cheapest oil they can find so their profits are up. LOL! Listen up Mr Spammer, even the 'cheapest' oil they sell at 'any' quick lube place is certified so it is more than 1000% better than an uncertified snake oil that 'will' void the engine warranty. What is that so hard to understand??? Also, aren't you supposed to get you pee pee slapped for Spamming that crap on Usenet? Isn't Spamsoil supposed to pull your license for this?? I think I will email them and ask. Mike "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4628be8c$0$11123 > Listen up Mr Spammer, even the 'cheapest' oil they sell at 'any' quick > lube place is certified so it is more than 1000% better than an [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mike The Amsoil synthetics are certified, arent they, Mike....Their regular oils dont appear to be. > The Amsoil synthetics are certified, arent they, Mike....Their > regular oils > dont appear to be. The XL Product line is API Certified. This is the faux synthetic (like Castrol Syntec). Most of the rest of the Amsoil oils are not API certified. Here are a list of the API Certified Amsoil Engine Oils (from http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0995 and http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo2.asp?LicenseNo=0995 ): Brand SAE Service Name Viscosity Category PCO 15W-40 CI-4/SL** XL 10W-30 SM/CF* XL 10W-40 SM/CF XL 5W-20 SM/CF* XL 5W-30 SM/CF* * - Energy Conserving ** - CI-4 Plus Ed > "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4628be8c$0$11123 >> Listen up Mr Spammer, even the 'cheapest' oil they sell at 'any' quick [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > The Amsoil synthetics are certified, arent they, Mike....Their regular oils > dont appear to be. From what I have read, if I remember right only one of their newest 'fake' synthetics got certified. You know the type the oil companies went to court to have the 'synthetic' definition changed to include any 'refined' dino oil. Now companies like spamsoil can sell the regular 99 cent oil at 'synthetic' prices so they are really laughing all the way to the bank. That is the 'only' reason they certified that one from what I read. Their synthetics that are from other means, or the old 'real' ones couldn't pass. I think Mobile and royal purple are one of the last companies to still have 'real' 'certified' synthetic, not the fake stuff. There are 'some' really scuzzy things I know about Spamsoil that their lawyers have come after me for big time with a gag order threat. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:4628d2c9$0$6613 > From what I have read, if I remember right only one of their newest > 'fake' synthetics got certified. You know the type the oil companies [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Mike As a chemist, I can appreciate that the term "synthetic" can have a variety of meanings. Not just poly(alphaolefins) nor polyesters are synthetics.. It is a grey area as to how much refinement or reaction is needed to call something fully synthetic. Nontheless, I agree with you on Amsoil. I dont like their MLM business model and their claims. >Just curious, have many have ever used AMSOIL? I've never used magnets to get rid of headaches, either. And I don't need to to know that the people who push them for that purpose are idiots. > On Apr 19, 3:34 pm, <H...@nospam.nix> wrote: >> "Ed White" <ce.whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > all my own maintenance on my vehicles short of warranty work, > transmissions or exhausts. I feel confident that AMSOIL products. Bought a new 1957 Ford F100. Used Texaco or Conoco 10/30 oil. Sold truck at 13100 miles. person that bought it used same brands. At 195000 had to change the valve seals. Engine still in good condition. This was a 6 cylinder. It was always run hard and fast. That oil suited me and the second owner. I have been using regular Valvoline oil for years.I think any well known American brand name of oil is just as good. cuhulin ............................................................ A man needs only two tools in life.WD-40 and Duct Tape.If it doesn't move and it should,use the WD-40.If it moves and it shouldn't,use the Duct Tape. ............................................................ >>"....In fact, since they don't test it to >> spec it's entire possible they put in more additives then your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >related failure. Courts of law will rule against any manufacturer or >dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans." I think you are mistaken. They cannot force you to use MOTORCRAFT brand or to buy your oil from them, or to come to them to have it changed, but they can insist that you use an oil that meets their specifications if you want warranty coverage. Otherwise you could fill your crankcase with Vaseline and when the engine seized demand they replace it under warranty. Clearly they would not. > >"....In fact, since they don't test it to > > spec it's entire possible they put in more additives then your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > related failure. Courts of law will rule against any manufacturer or > dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans." Really? Even if you drive long enough to evaporate the oil completely? What if the oil is spec-ed for cooking whole turkeys in full submersion? What if the brand of oil you use is fortified with tree sap or sand? A sand-rich oil would most likely fail any relevant quality testing; do you suggest that manufacturers would allow a warranty claim if someone used an oil such as this in their engine and experienced internal failure shortly thereafter? For future debate, lets call this hypothetical oil SANDSOIL. Toyota MDT in MO In article <1177193686.795530.197310@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > >"....In fact, since they don't test it to > > > spec it's entire possible they put in more additives then your [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO Not quite a mnemonic but close enough. LOL! Ya right, the junk is not certified as others in this thread have noted and if you use it it will void the engine warranty. Sure spamsoil says when you blow your engine and are told no warranty because you used snake oil, send it to them and if they decide it was their oil that blew the engine they will replace it. SURE they will... The only idiots recommending spamsoil are the sales droids. Had a friend once who got suckered into spamsoil. he couldn't give the junk away, literally because he had too many smart friends. He gave me a case and I trashed it into the recycle bin for him. I sure wouldn't use snake oil in my CJ7, I plan on keeping it for another 10 or 20 years. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) <spam snipped> > European Car Formula > Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) Checker/Shuck's/Kragen currently offers Valvoline SynPower full synthetic for only 99 cents a quart with newspaper coupon and $2.50/ qt. rebate (limit 6 qts.). >> European Car Formula >> Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) > > Checker/Shuck's/Kragen currently offers Valvoline SynPower full > synthetic for only 99 cents a quart with newspaper coupon and $2.50/ > qt. rebate (limit 6 qts.). Good point, the cheap stuff is 1000% better than that snake oil Spamsoil is trying to flog to suckers. It won't void your engine warranty. One must wonder just 'how' a company got the cheap stuff to pass the standards seeing as Spamsoil says it's too hard or expensive to do. Mike > >> European Car Formula > >> Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > One must wonder just 'how' a company got the cheap stuff to pass the > standards seeing as Spamsoil says it's too hard or expensive to do. A couple of years ago, somebody in this forum posted details about the costs of API certification, and it wasn't anything close to the $250,000 mentioned by Ashton Crusher or even 1% as much. 99 cents/qt. for this Valvoline synthetic is outragously expsensive compare to the 6 cents/qt. I paid for Pennzoil synthetic 1-2 years ago (thanks, FatWallet.com). >> >> European Car Formula >> >> Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >compare to the 6 cents/qt. I paid for Pennzoil synthetic 1-2 years ago >(thanks, FatWallet.com). I think you might be confusing the licensing fee's with the cost to run the test sequences. >>A couple of years ago, somebody in this forum posted details about the >>costs of API certification, and it wasn't anything close to the >>$250,000 mentioned by Ashton Crusher or even 1% as much. >I think you might be confusing the licensing fee's with the cost to >run the test sequences. And if they haven't run the test sequences, how can they make the claim that the oil passes the tests? Personally, I prefer to use an oil that's been thoroughly tested *before* I buy it. > And if they haven't run the test sequences, how can they make the > claim that the oil passes the tests? > > Personally, I prefer to use an oil that's been thoroughly tested > *before* I buy it. Products may pass tests run by internal laboratories or even third party testing laboratories, but the results may not be accepted by the certifying agency unless the fees are paid and that agency repeats the tests. I dont know if this is the case for oil, but it is true for many other things, and this is where some of the expense for certification can creep in. >> And if they haven't run the test sequences, how can they make the >> claim that the oil passes the tests? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >testing laboratories, but the results may not be accepted by the certifying >agency unless the fees are paid and that agency repeats the tests. When an oil company certifies an oil, they submit the test results and the API decides whether they pass. And these test results must be run in laboratories that are certified to run the tests properly. The API doesn't repeat any testing. >I dont know if this is the case for oil, but it is true for many other >things, and this is where some of the expense for certification can creep in. An oil company pushing an uncertified oil and offering all sorts of bogus excuses for not being certified should raise all sorts of red flags. > >Products may pass tests run by internal laboratories or even third party > >testing laboratories, but the results may not be accepted by the certifying [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > bogus excuses for not being certified should raise all sorts of red > flags. I looked over the Castrol site with respect to some their certification and we often find language something like "exceeds xxxxx specifications". This is a very vague term, and something that Spamsoil might mimic. "Exceeds" by whose definition? Is it certified or not?? Your comments above are similar to what I have tried to suggest. Just because an oil company or formulator have run their internal tests, and believe that their product is superior, does not mean anything in the certification exercise. The data have to be performed by a certified lab, or by the certifying agency (in some cases), and accepted in the certification protocol. In some industries accredited labs can be used, in others they cannot. In some, ONLY the certifying agency can run the tests to grant the certification. Sounds like a boondoggle?? Probably is, but that is the way it sometimes goes. > >> >> European Car Formula > >> >> Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I think you might be confusing the licensing fee's with the cost to > run the test sequences. No, I'm not. I'm referring to the total cost, and this thread from 2003 says API certification is $1,000 plus less than a penny per quart: http://tinyurl.com/2ftaqq If certification does costs too much, then why does Amsoil have some oils that are API certified, and why are 100% synthetics that normally sell for much less also API certified? Amsoil can't be trusted on this issue because it's made too many false claims, including for fuel economy improvement. >No, I'm not. I'm referring to the total cost, and this thread from >2003 says API certification is $1,000 plus less than a penny per >quart: > > http://tinyurl.com/2ftaqq Yep. About a thousand for the API licensing, and many tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands to test the oil. >If certification does costs too much, then why does Amsoil have some >oils that are API certified, and why are 100% synthetics that normally >sell for much less also API certified? The fact that they *do* have some of their oils certified seems to indicate that they actually do understand and appreciate the importance of API certification in spite of what they say to explain the lack of certification on most of their products. If they didn't appreciate the importance of certification, they wouldn't bother certifying any of their oils. But given some of the chatter in recent years (mainly about the zinc levels), it would seem that their uncertified oils simply do NOT meet the certification requirements. >Amsoil can't be trusted on >this issue because it's made too many false claims, including for fuel >economy improvement. I would have to agree. The behaviour of countless MLM droids on countless newsgroups has destroyed any credibility that the company may have had. >>No, I'm not. I'm referring to the total cost, and this thread from >>2003 says API certification is $1,000 plus less than a penny per [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > countless newsgroups has destroyed any credibility that the company > may have had. I would consider elevated levels of ZDDP a valid, positive reason to sell uncertified oils. However, I agree with you re: Amsoil because they don't ever explicitly state that their oils *would* meet API requirement if it weren't for containing high levels of ZDDP or other anti-wear additives. Red Line has spec sheets on their oil available online; if I feel like spending lots of money on a expensive yet uncertified oil, guess which I would pick? nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >> >> >> European Car Formula >> >> >> Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil (AFL) [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >2003 says API certification is $1,000 plus less than a penny per >quart: That thread refers only to the cost for the license to use the starburst. It's not the cost of the testing. To expand on why the certification costs so much... To certify an oil some of the tests that must be run require you to run the oil in a specific engine. The last article I read indicated that just to buy the engine is something like 10K+. Then you have to pay the techs to run the tests. And that's just one test of many. I don't recall all the details but the bottom line was that if you wish to sell a FULL LINE of engine oils that are all certified you could wind up with a $250,000 bill by the time you are done. The whole test sequence takes months to run and each different oil has to be run. So your 5w20 and 5w30 and 10w30 and 15w30 and then your same oils in synthetic formulation also, all have to be run thru all the test sequences. And if one of them fails the tests you have to reformulate it and rerun the tests. Then if a couple years go by and your base oil supply source changes you may well have to run all the tests again because you may have to reformulate your oils. > http://tinyurl.com/2ftaqq > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >this issue because it's made too many false claims, including for fuel >economy improvement. >That thread refers only to the cost for the license to use the >starburst. It's not the cost of the testing. To expand on why the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >15w30 and then your same oils in synthetic formulation also, all have >to be run thru all the test sequences. The different viscosity grades can be certified by running one through the tests then "reading across" to other viscosity grades. http://api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/AppF-REV-03-15-07.pdf The same can be done for the syntheric formulation. >And if one of them fails the >tests you have to reformulate it and rerun the tests. Then if a >couple years go by and your base oil supply source changes you may >well have to run all the tests again because you may have to >reformulate your oils. If a formulation is certified then the base oil is changed, the new formulation can be certified with an abbreviated (and much less expensive) series of tests, often without any additional engine testing at all. http://api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/AppE-Rev-03-15-07.pdf The whole test sequence takes months to run and > each different oil has to be run. So your 5w20 and 5w30 and 10w30 and > 15w30 and then your same oils in synthetic formulation also, all have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > well have to run all the tests again because you may have to > reformulate your oils. This is a common problem and complaint in the chemical industry. It can cost a ton of money to run through a certification series. If we did all the tests that we could think of to try to avoid every problem conceivable, we would never get a product to market and would go broke. Unfortunately, this is also how some of the really big mistakes (in chemicals and medicines) slip through unnoticed. |
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