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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / April 2007Intermittent Engine Starting Problem
1995 Ford F150 with V8, 220k mi. Truck developed weird symptom where it would not start when it was raining and cold. Battery is topped off. Headlights and accessories appear strong. All fluids topped off. But from a standstill, I turned the key, all indicators worked, but all I heard was a click under the hood. No engine turnover. Because of this, It had to be towed to PepBoys where they "diagnosed" it and replaced the starter motor. Symptoms came back next time it rained. Returned it to PepBoys, they apologized and gave a discount toward another repair, to replace the solenoid. Truck worked for 2 weeks, then the symptom came back again. At least this time it's stuck in my driveway. Any idea what is going on!?! > 1995 Ford F150 with V8, 220k mi. Truck developed weird symptom where > it would not start when it was raining and cold. Battery is topped > off. Headlights and accessories appear strong. All fluids topped > off. But from a standstill, I turned the key, all indicators worked, > but all I heard was a click under the hood. No engine turnover. Presuming you mean it would not crank when you say "it would not start". It sounds like a connection is being affected by humidity. Suggest that the next time you encounter this, you turn on the headlights *while* you try starting the car. We can narrow down the location of the bad connection depending on whether or not the headlights dim or extinguish when you turn the key and get a click.  SignatureMusic hath charms to soothe the savage breast. That's why stereo has two channels. Yes that's correct, the symptom is that the engine will not crank. But a click is heard when I turn the key which I assume is the new solenoid. I tried your suggestion of starting the truck with the headlights on. It started right up, with only minimal dimming of the lights. But then oddly, all subsequent tries to start it failed- with or without lights on. If it's a humidity problem, which parts would be susceptible? Or could it be a bad ignition switch? (it is easy to turn without a key and sometimes the key gets stuck) Or could it be a bad clutch switch? > > 1995 Ford F150 with V8, 220k mi. Truck developed weird symptom where > > it would not start when it was raining and cold. Battery is topped [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast. > That's why stereo has two channels. >> It sounds like a connection is being affected by humidity. Suggest that >> the next time you encounter this, you turn on the headlights *while* you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > lights. But then oddly, all subsequent tries to start it failed- with > or without lights on. What we need to know is how the lights behaved during the failure. If the lights went dim or completely out when the key was turned and the solenoid clicked, there's probably a bad connection between battery and starter (including cables, grounds, etc.); if they didn't dim, it's probably a connection to the starter or the solenoid not involving the battery. > If it's a humidity problem, which parts would be susceptible? I'd guess mechanical connections, such as cable-to-battery. > Or > could it be a bad ignition switch? (it is easy to turn without a key > and sometimes the key gets stuck) Possible but unlikely. What you describe sounds like the locking portion (as opposed to the electrical portion) being well worn. The electrical part of the switch doesn't handle much power; the "click" usually means there's just enough power getting to the solenoid to actuate the solenoid, but not enough for the solenoid to be able to actuate the starter motor. The electrical part of the ignition switch is unlikely to be able to pull that off; likely it'll either work 100% or not at all. > Or could it be a bad clutch switch? I'd say "unlikely" for the same reason as for the ignition switch. SignatureMusic hath charms to soothe the savage breast. That's why stereo has two channels. ========= ======== > 1995 Ford F150 with V8, 220k mi. Truck developed weird symptom where > it would not start when it was raining and cold. Battery is topped [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > weeks, then the symptom came back again. At least this time it's > stuck in my driveway. Any idea what is going on!?! ====== ====== Questions:: 1. Do you have a battery charger if needed? 2. Do you have a volt meter if needed? . . 3. This symptom ONLY happens when it rains? 4. if so.... Does it happen with both light and heavy downpours? 5. THIS symptomONLY happens when it rains rite? 6. Have you "tried" takeing the Battery cable off overnite to see if the truck would start the next day when the cable is reattached? 7. Have you "tried" cranking the truck, THEN unhooking the battery cable, in order to see if the trucks motor still runs without the battery cable on? 8. THIS SYMPTOM ONLY happens when it rains,,rite?? 9. Has the battery been tested by the ole AutoZonedOut for FREE, in order to confirm it's integrety? 10. THIS SYMPTOM NEVER happens when it hasen't rained for at least 2 days? 11. Have you tried cranking the truck on a dry day, when the truck is cranking good, and using a water hose to try and and locate a malfunction from the battery down to the starter? 12. Were ANY other repairs or ANY service work done to the truck jest prior to the symptom? ~~Preliminary Diagnosis~~ Preliminary diagnosis indicates further diagnosis is needed. In order to enact a pinpoint diagnosis, the technician assigned has requested approval for further diagnostic tests, as well as a more detailed "symptom background" from the most frequent driver of the vehicle. The above questions have been submitted by the technician in order to facilitate a pinpoint diagnosis and maintain a low cost diagnostic, the customers funds being best invested in repair. The following list are the primary concerns of interest after the Preliminary Inspection. battery connections starter relay ignition relay faulty chassis grounds chafed wiring battery starter "assembly" customer ~:~ MarshMonster ~sips his crown'n'coke....takes a toke.........looks out the french doors at the waterhose~ ~:~ Thanks Clifto, here's what I found: the lights do not dim when the engine fails to crank. So I will begin checking connections to starter and to the solenoid. The actual battery connections are solid. > Do you have a battery charger if needed? Yes, I have a charger and recently applied it to the battery until full. > Do you have a volt meter if needed? Yes > This symptom ONLY happens when it rains?> Does it happen with both light and heavy downpours? Seems that during and after any type of rain it will fail to crank. Even though there's never visible water under the hood. After a day or so of sun, it is more likely to start. Now, this weather could be a coincidence, but so far appears to be correct. > Have you "tried" takeing the Battery cable off overnite > to see if the truck would start the next day when the cable > is reattached? No, I will try this. > Have you "tried" cranking the truck, THEN unhooking the > battery cable, in order to see if the trucks motor still runs > without the battery cable on? > Have you tried cranking the truck on a dry day, when the > truck is cranking good, and using a water hose to try and > and locate a malfunction from the battery down to the starter? No, I look forward to trying these after it successfully starts (it's been rainy here) > Has the battery been tested by the ole AutoZonedOut > for FREE, in order to confirm it's integrety? No, but all indications here are that it's ok. Next time it's on the road I can do this. > THIS SYMPTOM NEVER happens when it hasen't rained > for at least 2 days? No > Were ANY other repairs or ANY service work done to the > truck jest prior to the symptom? Nothing just prior. Late last year a new oil pan & gasket were put on. > battery connections > starter relay [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > starter "assembly" > customer Thanks so far for the help. > Thanks Clifto, here's what I found: the lights do not dim when the > engine fails to crank. So I will begin checking connections to > starter and to the solenoid. The actual battery connections are > solid. You just proved that. :) Don't forget to check the grounding. SignatureMusic hath charms to soothe the savage breast. That's why stereo has two channels. I've tried these suggestions and more to try and track down the problem. The results kept leading back to a bad starter motor. So, I towed it back to PepBoys (it's still under warranty from the last starter motor and solenoid replacements.) Their diagnosis came back the same- that the new (reman.) starter motor was also bad. So they popped in a new one at no charge. I have to admit, it runs fine now, and sounds better upon start up. But I can't help but wonder if the same problem will come back in a few days or months- because of some underlying problem that will ruin any motor that is put in. > I've tried these suggestions and more to try and track down the > problem. The results kept leading back to a bad starter motor. So, I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > few days or months- because of some underlying problem that will ruin > any motor that is put in. Pep Boys, like some other FLAPS, does not have a sterling reputation and track record on some of their parts. If it happens again, I suggest you find a good local alternator and starter shop and see if they can rebuild it so it will last. You can of course try the rebuilds from a supplier like NAPA, as they usually have a better name in the industry. >I've tried these suggestions and more to try and track down the >problem. The results kept leading back to a bad starter motor. So, I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >few days or months- because of some underlying problem that will ruin >any motor that is put in. Are you saying it cranks but will not start or, is it not cranking? I understand the lights do not dim when turned to the start position. If it is also not cranking, I would first make sure the ignition wire terminal to the starter solenoid on the starter is clean and tight. They had problems with corrosion there and I have hitched a ride home on 2 occasions with two different cars because of it. It is a spade connector and, sometimes, requires replacement of the connector to repair. Once you get it clean and tight when installing, coat it with silicone grease to protect it. Once you have done that and it is still a problem, make sure you are getting 12 volts to the solenoid terminals in the start position. If that is good replace the starter solenoid on the right fender. If you are not getting 12 volts back to the solenoids, the problem may be the ignition switch behind the dash on the side of the steering column. That vintage was one that had ignition switch problems and were recalled. That campagn is likely long over. The ignition switch should be replaced with the updated switch to reduce the possibility of a short to ground in the switch resulting in a fire if it has not already been replaced. You can buy starters til the cows come home if you haven't taken care of the basic known problems. You do not need any special skills. You will have to pop off the ceramic cover on the starter solenoid to get to the wires. Lugnut >I've tried these suggestions and more to try and track down the >problem. The results kept leading back to a bad starter motor. So, I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >few days or months- because of some underlying problem that will ruin >any motor that is put in. It is, and that underlying problem is that Pep Boys is selling you shoddy rebuilds. Go to a real rebuilder and avoid the chain stores. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > I've tried these suggestions and more to try and track down the > problem. The results kept leading back to a bad starter motor. So, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > few days or months- because of some underlying problem that will ruin > any motor that is put in. You got it at Pep Boys. It's not like they spend a lot of money to get the best remanufactured merchandise. Just hope this one lasts a while. SignatureMusic hath charms to soothe the savage breast. That's why stereo has two channels. |
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