Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2007
Black Transmission Fluid - - Any Hope???
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decoyfred - 25 Apr 2007 16:10 GMT Hey all,
My wife and I just got hitched and I've now inherited the responsibility of maintaining her little 2002 Toyota Rav4... her pride and joy. I've been taking it in for its regular oil changes for a while now and decided to check on the transmission fluid the other day... turns out it's never been changed. Ever.
The car now has over 120K miles and has no super-major transmission concerns "yet," but the tranny fluid is, of course, about as black as it gets. I was about to have the fluid and filter changed out but the mechanic said that once it gets that dark it's better to leave it in and start saving for a new tranny. He explained that the sediment in the fluid, if drained, would settle into the transmission's inner parts and more than likely ruin it right away.
Does anyone have any experience with something like this? Is it possible to save this tranny? Is this an exaggeration?
Thanks in advance for your help and shared knowledge! :smokin:
 Signature decoyfred
http://www.automotiveforums.com
HLS@nospam.nix - 25 Apr 2007 17:12 GMT > Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Does anyone have any experience with something like this? Is it > possible to save this tranny? Is this an exaggeration? "Black" tranny fluid is not a good sign. Lots of people, however, don't give transmission service a second thought until it is late in the game.
We've heard the story that, in transmission like this, it may be inadvisable to service the tranny at this stage. The claim is that sludge and varnish are the only reasons your tranny continues to work and if you clean it up, it may fail. (Whether true or not....)
The previous mechanic's story is, however, a little lacking in credibility: If the fluid is black, you are already circulating crap through the innards. If you drop the pan and clean it out, you will not stir up any new 'sludge'.
In my estimation, you are already driving with a ticking time bomb. It WILL fail, sooner or later. I would prefer that my car fail at home than on the road, but I never let my cars go so long without service.
If it were mine, I would be sure I had money reserved for a rebuild, and would change the fluid. It is your choice, and your gamble.
Nobody can tell you, for sure, what is going to happen.
Mike Romain - 25 Apr 2007 17:47 GMT > Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Thanks in advance for your help and shared knowledge! :smokin: I usually tell more by doing a 'sniff' test. If it smells burnt or like burnt toast, it is likely in trouble.
Otherwise I have seen a bunch of really black fluid come out of a lot of old vehicles without them failing soon after. Lots actually.... I have even seen what looked like diarrhea come out of a couple Jeep CJ ones that got filled with muddy water and they still ran after too.
However, I also hear of a lot that go to quick lubs and get told what you are told and do it with 'them' anyway. Those ones for some strange reason all seem 'to' fail....
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
cuhulin@webtv.net - 25 Apr 2007 20:26 GMT I have been to one of those quick lube places before.I will never go to one of them ever again.One hot afternoon,I didn't feel like changing the oil and oil filter and lubebing all of the alemites,(1978 Dodge van) so I drove my old van to a quick lube place.I told them all I want for my old van is an oil and oil filter change and a lube job.I was standing there at the front of the lube pit and watching as best as I could.I don't think the guy lubed all of the alemites.When I got back home and I looked under my van,I could see most of the alemites haden't even been touched,so I got out my grease gun and I lubed them all myself. cuhulin
Tegger - 26 Apr 2007 02:44 GMT cuhulin@webtv.net wrote in news:21128-462FAB4E-134@storefull- 3253.bay.webtv.net:
> I have been to one of those quick lube places before.I will never go to > one of them ever again.One hot afternoon,I didn't feel like changing the > oil and oil filter and lubebing all of the alemites,(1978 Dodge van) Nobody has had Alemite fittings since about 1930. You had Zerk fittings, or blank plugs in place of them.
 Signature Tegger
cuhulin@webtv.net - 26 Apr 2007 02:59 GMT I never have called them Zerk fittings before.To me,they are Alemite fittings. www.machinerylubrication.com cuhulin
Ashton Crusher - 26 Apr 2007 07:03 GMT >I never have called them Zerk fittings before.To me,they are Alemite >fittings. >www.machinerylubrication.com >cuhulin Alemite appears to be the name of the company that invented zerk fittings
http://www.alemite.com/catalog/details.aspx?identifier=fittings
Tegger - 26 Apr 2007 13:40 GMT cuhulin@webtv.net wrote in news:5738-46300771-99@storefull- 3257.bay.webtv.net:
> I never have called them Zerk fittings before.To me,they are Alemite > fittings. > www.machinerylubrication.com > cuhulin A Zerk fitting is not the same as an Alemite fitting.
I can't find my October/03 issue of "Skinned Knuckles" magazine. This issue had an article on the three common sorts of grease fittings used on cars through the ages. And that's the ONLY issue I can't find!
The magazine article had sketches of the three types of fittings side by side.
As I remember, an Alemite fitting was straight, not "belled" the way a Zerk is, and it had two pins extending radially from its diameter. These pins engaged the grease gun, much as the pins on an 1157 light bulb engage its socket.
Zerk and Alemite may be the same company now, but the fittings known by those names are not the same.
 Signature Tegger
B.B. - 29 Apr 2007 00:29 GMT >cuhulin@webtv.net wrote in news:5738-46300771-99@storefull- >3257.bay.webtv.net: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Zerk and Alemite may be the same company now, but the fittings known by >those names are not the same. Pictures of the pin type fittings about halfway down.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.aspx?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr= 2105
 Signature B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
Steve - 26 Apr 2007 15:21 GMT > Otherwise I have seen a bunch of really black fluid come out of a lot of > old vehicles without them failing soon after. Lots actually.... I have > even seen what looked like diarrhea come out of a couple Jeep CJ ones > that got filled with muddy water and they still ran after too. Yeah, Mike, but you're talking about Chrysler Torqueflights or GM Hydramatics in old Jeep CJs. They'll run on horse pee for fluid! A fragile, lightweight Toyota automatic in a small car like a Rav4 isn't going to take much abuse.
I still agree 100% that the OP should change the fluid, though. Crossing your fingers and hoping the sludge keeps the clutches working is a good way to get stranded in a bad part of town.
Mike Romain - 26 Apr 2007 15:43 GMT >> Otherwise I have seen a bunch of really black fluid come out of a lot >> of old vehicles without them failing soon after. Lots actually.... I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > your fingers and hoping the sludge keeps the clutches working is a good > way to get stranded in a bad part of town. Isn't it funny how tough all the old stuff is. The CJ trannys have to be more than 20 years old and they still work after that kind of abuse.
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Ray - 26 Apr 2007 15:51 GMT > Isn't it funny how tough all the old stuff is. The CJ trannys have to > be more than 20 years old and they still work after that kind of abuse. > > Mike It's because it was all overbuilt because they didn't know where they could cut the weight, so they cut none of it.
Then in the 80's they cut the weight, but didn't always cut it in the right spots, so you ended up with stuff like the first gen of 700R4s, the Pontiac 301, 5L Mustangs with 4 bolt wheels and such.
Somewhere in the 90's they started to get better at building stuff that doesn't weigh a ton but isn't fragile either.
The LS1 and T56 in my Trans Am are still holding up after the abuse I put it through... the stock clutch on the other hand... isn't doing so good.
But, I'm sure you knew all that. :)
Ray
Steve - 26 Apr 2007 18:30 GMT >> > Isn't it funny how tough all the old stuff is. The CJ trannys have >> to be more than 20 years old and they still work after that kind of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's because it was all overbuilt because they didn't know where they > could cut the weight, so they cut none of it. Actually if you take a 727 or a TH400 apart, there's not a lot of excess material in there, and they're not all that heavy so I don't think its a question of "not knowing where to cut weight" at all. They KNEW- engineers with slide-rules were often better than their CAD/CAM dependent successors (and I say that as an engineer who never used a slide rule...). I can roll under a car with an A-727 on a jack, then transfer 2/3 of its weight to my chest and then bench-press the bellhousing end of it up into position, and I'm a little guy who loathes gyms. They just used to build them to last the life of the car, because its easy to do that with a simple non-lockup convertor 3-speed. The price is really that with all that extra clutch material in there, they have more drag in 1st and 2nd gear when the clutches are disengaged (3rd gear everything's locked solid). When they started reducing the number of clutch plates and reducing clutch pack diameter to reduce the disengaged drag from shearing the fluid is when reliability started tanking. Somebody, right or wrong, decided that having a certain percentage of transmissions fail before the rest of the car was "used up" was an acceptable trade for higher fuel economy.
I think they've finally figured out how to make ultralight automatics last by using the engine management system to throttle back the engine during shifts. A 727 or TH400 was built to bring a 440 CID Mopar V8 or a Buick 455 V8 from redline down to 3000 RPM when it shifted gears, WITHOUT closing the throttle. That's a lot of energy dumped into the clutches during each shift. Avoid that requirement by only shifting when the computer throttles back the engine, and you can drastically reduce the size of the clutches without reducing the life of the transmission. But automakers only really started doing that within the last 4-5 years. In the 90s, they would sometimes cut out alternate cylinders during wide-open throttle upshifts, but now that most cars have servomotor controlled throttle plates, they can throttle back on EVERY shift.
Brent P - 26 Apr 2007 18:48 GMT > Actually if you take a 727 or a TH400 apart, there's not a lot of excess > material in there, and they're not all that heavy so I don't think its a > question of "not knowing where to cut weight" at all. They KNEW- > engineers with slide-rules were often better than their CAD/CAM > dependent successors (and I say that as an engineer who never used a > slide rule...) Back in the slide rule days, there were drafting departments to do the mundane stuff. I get the feeling that engineers didn't do half the stuff we do today in the terms of mundane overhead type things. Then throw on all the BS that has been added since then.
> percentage of transmissions fail before the rest of the car was "used > up" was an acceptable trade for higher fuel economy. Considering the penalties of CAFE, that's probably why it was an acceptable trade.
HLS@nospam.nix - 27 Apr 2007 13:06 GMT > Yeah, Mike, but you're talking about Chrysler Torqueflights or GM > Hydramatics in old Jeep CJs. They'll run on horse pee for fluid! A [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your fingers and hoping the sludge keeps the clutches working is a good > way to get stranded in a bad part of town. I agree with your last comment. I dont drive sludge buckets.
Not all the older trannies were good. I refer in particular to the 440T4 Metric GM which was doing good to make 100,000 miles in some of its applications.
Steve - 01 May 2007 17:29 GMT >>I still agree 100% that the OP should change the fluid, though. Crossing >>your fingers and hoping the sludge keeps the clutches working is a good [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Metric GM > which was doing good to make 100,000 miles in some of its applications. Yeah, but it isn't "old," is it? If its made after 1975, its "new." To me anyway... :-)
Actually, I agree. "Back in the day" I thought that, compared to a Chrysler 904 and 727 or the Ford C4 and C6, the GM TH350 and TH400 were marginal at best (3 bolts holding the convertor to the flex plate? GIMME A BREAK!) But by today's standards, they're paragons of reliability :-(
Noozer - 25 Apr 2007 22:14 GMT > Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the fluid, if drained, would settle into the transmission's inner parts > and more than likely ruin it right away. If changing the fluid causes the transmission to fail, it was bound to leave you stranded sometime soon anyhow.
I would have the pan dropped and cleaned out, filter changed, and transmission fluid flushed.
A transmission shop would be better than a lube place to take care of this, but I'd call both and compare pricing. I'd let a lube shop do a transmission flush as long as I could watch the whole proceedure... It's actually pretty simple to do.
Before doing anything, I'd check the owners manual to see if your vehicle needs any special type of ATF fluid.
decoyfred - 26 Apr 2007 05:42 GMT Thank you all for your replies.
Anyone have any particular transmission shop in South Fla. they'd recommend?
I think there's probably no sense in perpetuating the neglect. A good transmission shop might have that magic touch our little car needs.
Thanks once more!
 Signature decoyfred
http://www.automotiveforums.com
Steve - 26 Apr 2007 15:17 GMT > Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > concerns "yet," but the tranny fluid is, of course, about as black as > it gets. 120k miles shouldn't cause auto transmission fluid to be "black" in ANY vehicle. Back in the days of American 3-speed automatics, you could run them over 200k on the factory fluid with no damage. Its true that modern 4- 5- and 6-speed transmissions are far more fragile and should have more frequent fluid changes, but 120k really isn't excessive since most manufacturers still only recommend 60k intervals even for severe usage. My guess is that the transmission has been slipping and has burned the fluid due to a mechanical problem. When you say "no super-major transmission concerns" it leads me to think there is SOME transmission behavior that you're noticing is "not right." Sorry to say, its PROBABLY dead. But not necessarily...
I was about to have the fluid and filter changed out but the
> mechanic said that once it gets that dark it's better to leave it in > and start saving for a new tranny. I do NOT agree with that philosophy at all. Yes, there are conditions where doing a fluid change will cause a transmission that is marginal to start slipping- but IF a fluid change does that, the transmission was NOT SAFE to continue driving anyhow. Change the fluid and filter- if the transmission works it will work a lot longer than it would have with burned up fluid. If it quits, then it was about to strand you somewhere anyhow.
Oh, and BE SURE to use only the factory recommended fluid type.
jonnyald - 01 May 2007 17:48 GMT decoyfred Wrote:
> Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Thanks in advance for your help and shared knowledge! :smokin:just go ahead and change the fluid. if the trannys working o.k. its probably just changed colour because its old. we all go grey eventually!!!!
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C. E. White - 01 May 2007 18:15 GMT > Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks in advance for your help and shared knowledge! :smokin: You'd probably get a better answer from the people in the Toyota newsgroup.
Ed
Ray O - 01 May 2007 18:23 GMT >> Hey all, >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Ed Just have the automatic transmission fluid drained and re-filled by someone other than the one who told you not to change the fluid. Do not get it flushed, or you can run into problems from sediment getting lodged in small passages.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
hachiroku - 01 May 2007 19:13 GMT >> Hey all, >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Ed DON'T FLUSH IT!!! Unless, of course, you just want to install a new tranny!
Drain and fill. Good enough.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 01 May 2007 20:11 GMT I would take it to a reputable transmission shop (I have had good luck with Mr.Transmission before when the shop rebuilt the automatic transmission in my 1978 Dodge van about four or five years ago) and tell them to change the old transmissin fluid and filter and gasket.Tell them,Do not flush it.Tell them again,Do Not Flush It! cuhulin
Mel - 02 May 2007 13:23 GMT I burned the transmission fluid in my 91 Camry very badly. Severl mechinics told me the same story ... buy a new car ... the trainsmission is going to fail soon ... waste of money ... etc.
I went to a transmisison shop and they dropped the pan on the transmission (150K miles) and found no dirt, no metal particles, it was totally cleaned. I flushed it 4 times to get it totally clean and now the car has 230K on it with no problems. I never changed the oil before. The car runs perfectly.
I checked with several junk yards and they told me Toyota transmissions never fail.
I hope this helps
Mel
>> Hey all, >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Ed C. E. White - 02 May 2007 13:46 GMT > I checked with several junk yards and they told me Toyota > transmissions never fail. Well, I have personal knowledge of two that failed - 84 Cressida and 89 Camry (kept working, but leaked so much oil you had to add it before leaving the house).
Ed
Hachiroku ハチロク - 02 May 2007 14:16 GMT >> I checked with several junk yards and they told me Toyota transmissions >> never fail. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed I'm surprised...that the Cressida wasn't the leaky one. At least in '88 the Supra and the Cressida were about the same mechanically, and my tranny leaks like a sieve!
C. E. White - 02 May 2007 14:17 GMT >>> I checked with several junk yards and they told me Toyota >>> transmissions [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > At least in '88 the Supra and the Cressida were about the same > mechanically, and my tranny leaks like a sieve! Having a 19 year old transmission leak is no big surprise (especially if it sits a lot). But the Camry was only about 8 years old, but it was high mileage. The d$%& Cressida transmission didn't leak, it just shifted weird and started slipping. It was neither old nor high mileage when it went bad.
Ed
cuhulin@webtv.net - 02 May 2007 16:18 GMT If it's mechanical and moving parts.Sooner or later,it will fail.U.S.Military and Aircraft have a different set of rules though,usually.They go by how many hours such and such parts have been in use/operation.Then,it's remove and replace with new parts. cuhulin
EdV - 02 May 2007 17:52 GMT I can't find the other post with the similar situation, and somebody suggested to drain and fill twice to instead of a flush. The first drain is get out the fluid then refil and use the car and drain again after a couple of days. Makes sense to me and that will save some money, as Michael would say ATF is cheap and a new transmission is not.
By the way which is better? a flush or a dropping the pan?
Ray O - 02 May 2007 18:02 GMT >I can't find the other post with the similar situation, and somebody > suggested to drain and fill twice to instead of a flush. The first [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > By the way which is better? a flush or a dropping the pan? Do not flush the transmission!!!
It is not necessary to drop the pan. Just drain and re-fill.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
HLS@nospam.nix - 02 May 2007 18:15 GMT > By the way which is better? a flush or a dropping the pan? I wouldnt flush. If the tranny has a filter, I would (and do) drop the pan, clean out any 'dregs', change the filter, and top up with new fluid.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 02 May 2007 20:46 GMT And check the transmission fluid level regularly.Don't let it get too low. cuhulin
Hachiroku ハチロク - 02 May 2007 21:28 GMT > I can't find the other post with the similar situation, and somebody > suggested to drain and fill twice to instead of a flush. The first drain [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > By the way which is better? a flush or a dropping the pan? I wouldn't flush it. For every success story, there's five horror stories!
Drop the pan, change the filter, and refill. If it gets real black again real fast, do it again! (don't change the filter the second time unless it's filled with gunk...)
shiden_kai - 03 May 2007 00:25 GMT Hachiroku ???? wrote:
> I wouldn't flush it. For every success story, there's five horror > stories! The only horror stories are here....deep inside "old wives tales" country!
Ian
Hachiroku ハチロク - 03 May 2007 05:22 GMT > Hachiroku ???? wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ian Now, we sent two Escorts (Mazda trannies) to the flush shop. The first one went 120 miles, the second 12.
Granted, these were Mazda trannies, but we never flushed another one again.
The problem is, what's turning the tranny fluid black is the friction material from the clutches. If it's really black, chances are they've burned right off. Basically, what's moving the car is the friction material suspended in the tranny fluid. Flush that away and there may not be enough material left in the tranny to move the car.
I'm sweating bullets on my Supra. I have two choices: drop the pan, change the shift solenoids, replace the screen, refill it and *HOPE*, or swap to a 5-speed (what I would rather do, but far more labor and parts intensive!)
HLS@nospam.nix - 03 May 2007 13:20 GMT > Hachiroku ???? wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ian I tend to agree with Ian. This is another case where there are a lot of stories, but I have never seen documented proof.
I dont like, or use, the flush because I feel it is a bit of overkill, that it is not normally what a manufacturer recommends as regular maintenance, and because it costs a lot more. I have suspected that it was developed to help garages up their revenues on the basis it was a high technology 'must do' procedure.
I have been wrong a lot before, and this may be another case of it.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 04 May 2007 03:33 GMT On Thu, 03 May 2007 12:20:31 +0000, HLS wrote:
>> The only horror stories are here....deep inside "old wives tales" >> country! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I tend to agree with Ian. This is another case where there are a lot of > stories, but I have never seen documented proof. Seen it with me own eyes...
Had to go rescue the victims of two Flush 'n Fills myself...
shiden_kai - 04 May 2007 03:51 GMT Hachiroku ???? wrote:
> Seen it with me own eyes... > > Had to go rescue the victims of two Flush 'n Fills myself... Of course you have! Have you ever performed a transmission "flush"?
Ian
Hachiroku ハチロク - 04 May 2007 05:21 GMT > Hachiroku ???? wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ian Nope. Don't have the equipment.
And I hope you're not talking about that stuff you put in the tranny, run it for 15 mins and then drain and fill. I'm talking a complete flush where you pump 20 or more quarts into the tranny, and then 20 more quarts to replace that. You remove everything from the tranny and replace with clean fluid.
Some cars can't take it. I'm not going to find out, personally. But, I don't drive Automatics unless they're given to me.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 04 May 2007 05:59 GMT Kind of like old motor oil that hasen't ever been changed out before.That's the only thing holding the engine together. What kind of motor oil are you using,Earl? [motor oil is motor oil] cuhulin
Noozer - 04 May 2007 03:54 GMT > On Thu, 03 May 2007 12:20:31 +0000, HLS wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Had to go rescue the victims of two Flush 'n Fills myself... ... and you would have had to do the same a couple months down the road anyhow.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 04 May 2007 05:18 GMT >> On Thu, 03 May 2007 12:20:31 +0000, HLS wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ... and you would have had to do the same a couple months down the road > anyhow. Maybe. After that we just did drain 'n fills, and never had a complaint...
Mel - 03 May 2007 03:35 GMT I have heard the candle suggestion before, including from the guys at the transmission shop that dropped the pan. The mechanic and I checked things out and it was perfectly clean. Even the screen was totally clean. Maybe the three (exchange) flushes (oil was still black) I did earlier cleaned it out. The transmission has never leaked.
The mechanics I know also told me about how new oil would clean the seals and cause leaks, the transmission would start slipping, etc.
I was so concerned that the Toyota would die at any moment that I bought a new car ... which we hardly use. I just ordred a tow hitch and transmission cooler.
Maybe I have just been lucky? Or maybe driving it 80 mph (100 miles R/T) to work every day helped? I bought this car new so I know its history.
The neat thing about newsgroups is you get input from a lot of people.
So far so good.
Mel
>> I checked with several junk yards and they told me Toyota transmissions >> never fail. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed RT - 03 May 2007 06:23 GMT >I have heard the candle suggestion before, including from the guys at the >transmission shop that dropped the pan. The mechanic and I checked things [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Maybe I have just been lucky? Or maybe driving it 80 mph (100 miles R/T) to >work every day helped? I bought this car new so I know its history. if it was mostly 80mph there was no slipping in the trans an dit should be just fine. I did the drain and fill a few times and the first time I dropped the pan and replaced the filter. After that just drain and fill. Fluid now looks like new and the car still shifts like a new car.
>The neat thing about newsgroups is you get input from a lot of people. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Ed Hachiroku ハチロク - 02 May 2007 13:53 GMT > I burned the transmission fluid in my 91 Camry very badly. Severl > mechinics told me the same story ... buy a new car ... the trainsmission [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Mel I hope you drop $1 and light a candle in the church you attend. Someone is watching over you!
>>> Hey all, >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >> Ed
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